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We live in an upper middle class neighborhood and the only people who drive through are other people who live here. Our daughter is seven now but we’ve let her

• 9991 4y ago
  > So the man from CPS came and inspected our house to make sure we weren’t abusing our child. Were you legally obligated to let him into your house?
  • 1123581321 4y ago
    Typically the first visit is a request to be voluntarily let in. If denied they will return with a police officer and a warrant to enter, and will be more likely to try to hurt your family rather than do a cursory walkthrough. It’s a bit of game theory but it’s best to let them in the first time.
  • zargon 4y ago
    As the story demonstrates, there could be extra-legal consequences whether one allows them in or not. For average people without very deep pockets, it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.
  • wincy 4y ago
    I denied the police officer entry. He made me produce my child (to show she was there and safe) but that was it. A CPS representative came a few days later and we were advised by a lawyer to let him in and take a look. He made some minor suggestions about cleaning up around our younger daughter’s high chair (she’d thrown some food around her chair) but nothing came of it.
• jsiaajdsdaa 4y ago
  • bsagdiyev 4y ago
    By what metric? This is a normal everyday thing in some countries. I was running to the corner store and grabbing milk, cheese or beer, among other groceries, when I was under 10. This was Spain in the 80s/90s and afaik is still a thing. Or walking clear across town to hang out with friends or go to school. In what way is teaching kids independence and giving them your trust not beneficial?
    • jsiaajdsdaa 4y ago
      • pjbeam 4y ago
        Are you a parent? Part of a child growing up is developing independence in sometimes controlled, sometimes impromptu scenarios. Most 7 year olds are entirely capable of cruising around a couple houses where the adults all know each other. If you put your child in a bubble you not only stunt their development you also rob them of so much joy.
      • PuppyTailWags 4y ago
        The vast majority of bad things that happen to children are because of adults close to the child abusing the child.
      • tertius 4y ago
        What ifs could happen to anyone at any time. What if I get HIV from a needle at a park bench? Do I need to inspect every park bench I sit on with UV light at night and leather gloves to be sure? Where do you draw your line. Clearly your lines are different than others. You should consider that their lines are based on rational investigation of the risk. Is yours?
      • brandur 4y ago
• pjbeam 4y ago
  This is a real shame, it's bad for your daughter and life in general. I have three kids and as much as I'd love to let them roam a bit like my wife and I did as kids, stories like yours scare the hell out of me. I don't know how we arrived at kids walking around in their own neighborhoods is neglect but life sure is poorer for it.
  • wincy 4y ago
    Now that she’s seven and has the watch everything seems fine. She goes further than ever and we haven’t gotten complaints. Maybe the lady gave up or decided my daughter’s magically old enough now. We also have run ins with CPS more often than normal because we have a disabled child. We were reported to CPS because our daughter has issues with holding her breath (her brain stem isn’t quite right, she essentially has a condition where if she gets upset she forgets to breathe and has to be “rebooted” by giving her breaths) the EMTs came into the house and found her crib with poop in it when they took her to the hospital. The thing is, when she holds her breath she proceeds to have a massive bowel movement that no diaper can contain. Hence the poop in the crib. The crazy thing is that to “protect” her, the state withdrew her nursing care (as they were being investigated by CPS), and forced the burden of taking care of her fully onto me and my wife. This was during the crazy nursing shortage in 2021 so of course our nurses found better jobs that pay far better Which I’m glad for them, but it left us in a tight spot. We’re lucky enough that we make enough money that my wife can stay at home but this would have been absolutely ruinous for other families. The nursing shortage is so bad that the state had enacted a program where my wife gets paid to be her caregiver (which is funny, being your child’s employee, her name is on the checks). It’s all very frustrating and makes us cautious with what we say to doctors and other mandatory reporters, even if we think we’re being good parents. One time I gave my daughter a sip of Mountain Dew and mentioned it to the doctor and now it’s in the “permanent record” that I give her Mountain Dew.
    • kbelder 4y ago
      That is one lesson I've learned. Keep your mouth shut around doctors, counselors, therapists, teachers, and daycare workers. Treat them politely, professionally, and keep them at a distance and never give them details about your family. Gently coach your children to do the same, but not explicitly. It's horrible, but it's too large of a risk to do anything else, regardless of how actually pleasant and healthy your families environment may be. Assume that every fact you give any of them about your children will be misunderstood, interpreted as uncharitably as possible, taken out of context, permanently recorded, and distributed to hostile strangers to judge.
• dominotw 4y ago
  I have family that choose to live in 100% Indian community in dallas for this exact reason. Kids can go in and out of the house at will. They walk around outside and find other kids to play and hangout. No playdates, no schedules, no dropoffs. I used to think living in 100% indian community is a bit weird; after all america is about diversity, learning and understanding other cultures. But now i see the light and recommend this lifestyle for anyone with kids.
  • yieldcrv 4y ago
    > But now i see the light and recommend this lifestyle for anyone with kids. How many other residents in the US can live in a 100% indian community. Is that one still 100%, the family is indian? the key takeaway being that it avoids this snitching system?
    • manquer 4y ago
      I don’t know if I would recommend it necessarily and saying this is an Indian living in America. Indian Americans are no means more forward thinking than other communities, they just have different things they would be nosy about, for example many parents would disapprove of American boyfriends and even some Indian ones from different caste or communities.
      • samarthr1 4y ago
        While i agree in part with your generalization about Indian parents, issues of caste have come down a lot over the past 75 odd years... I cannot speak of (or for) the indo-american community though, given that most of my life experiences have been in large cities, but amongst fairly diverse strata of society.
    • dominotw 4y ago
      yes homogeneity brings higher levels of trust. people just talk to each other, going to law enforcement isn't the first instict.
• listless 4y ago
  That is infuriating. What right does the government have to come and inspect your house and invade your privacy over your child walking around outside?!? In her own neighborhood? Surely despite everyone’s political leanings we can all agree that this is an egregious abuse of power.
  • spoils19 4y ago
    If the government steps in and tries to help kids grow up to be modern citizens (read: pious, hard-working, conservative), then I don't see a problem with inspecting houses.
  • manquer 4y ago
    Depends, if a person is really abusing a child which unfortunately happens more frequently than we all want to believe, then you would rather have the government intervene without complicated red-tape as soon as possible. In this case above CPS and police just checked up as they should on a any complaint and then were fine with OP, the system is working as expected (neighbor is still being a dick) Yes it is annoying, but I rather live in a world where the police or CPS chase every frivolous compliant than them unable to do anything without a court order or not stopping abuse enough. we don’t realize how many of our rights society grant to us and can take away easily . Raising a child is a one for that matter so is marriage, or even managing your own affairs (conservatorship), while we no longer just put people in mental institutions, government absolutely have the power to do so. Compromises of living in a civil society is to abide by rules even if it invades the privacy and rights of any one individual.
    • candiodari 4y ago
      > Yes it is annoying, but I rather live in a world where the police or CPS chase every frivolous compliant than them unable to do anything without a court order or not stopping abuse enough. This is what everybody always says. There's a serious problem with that however. Unfortunately CPS makes the situation of children worse, when they interfere, rather than better. Everybody is always in favour of detecting abuse (never mind that there isn't any reliable method to do that, and most kids get placed effectively randomly, according to research). But when it comes to footing the bill of decently caring for the children ... nothing of that favour seems to be left. CPS is terrible for kids, and of course this raises the question: are they better than abuse at home? Or ... worse? https://sci-hub.se/10.1257/aer.97.5.1583 https://sci-hub.se/10.1257/aer.97.5.1583 Or, more dramatic: https://www.kansascity.com/news/special-reports/article238206754.html https://www.kansascity.com/news/special-reports/article23820... The biggest investigation ever into CPS had to come to the conclusion: a kid is better off abused at home than helped by CPS, even in the "average" case of actual serious physical abuse. Worse: most placements are effectively random, depending more on the CPS investigator than on the kid or their circumstances, so most kids in CPS haven't actually been abused. There's all sorts of extra investigations equally bad, for example one concluding that the violence in the life of a child increases when CPS intervenes to protect a child, rather than decreasing. And that's ignoring the many CPS scandals where CPS employees get caught abusing kids themselves, even renting out children for sex, using them as drugrunners, ... > Depends, if a person is really abusing a child which unfortunately happens more frequently than we all want to believe, then you would rather have the government intervene without complicated red-tape as soon as possible. NO, I would not want the government to be enabled to do this. I would want the government to provide options for those children to escape such an environment IF AND ONLY IF they have the "durable" agreement of the child (meaning if the child wants to go back, they can immediately do so).
• game-of-throws 4y ago
  > One day she came to our house with our daughter in tow So she's grabbing other people's kids off the street? She sounds unhinged. I'd do everything I could to get a restraining order.
  • MerelyMortal 4y ago
    Sounds like kidnapping to me (I am not a lawyer).
    • candiodari 4y ago
      If you do that, that will turn one CPS report against you into 5. And if it leads to fights with that neighbour, worse ...
      • throwaway290 4y ago
        If she has boundary issues, she may not stop until she suffers from a firm response. It may also be why she has the strange hobby of approaching and interrogating someone else's children (she may feel 'safer' with them since a polite kid rarely sent her to mind own business).
      • inetknght 4y ago
        I grew up with CPS being reported against my family on multiple occasions. At one point we had 7 CPS reports against us. At the end, CPS sent two people -- one being a supervisor to make sure nothing was missed -- and two sherrifs with a wagon to take away the kids if anything untoward was found. The supervisor determined nothing was wrong and that the CPS reports were malicious and put a note on our file and address stating that further reports need to go that specific supervisor. We didn't have any trouble after that. But it was very very stressful.
    • kenned3 4y ago
      Can you elaborate how you feel returning a kid to their own home is "kidnapping"? Given I am Canadian, here is our legal definition: Kidnapping 279 (1) Every person commits an offence who kidnaps a person with intent (a) to cause the person to be confined or imprisoned against the person’s will; (b) to cause the person to be unlawfully sent or transported out of Canada against the person’s will; or (c) to hold the person for ransom or to service against the person’s will. You could argue the child did not want to be sent back home, but I think you would not be successful making this case in a court of law. Escalating this by reporting her to the police will simply cause her to escalate back. She reports you to CAS, you report her to the police. You now face a false police report charge, and if anything further happens you already have one strike against you as the police will document this interaction. Clearly the child is in no danger, so what was the point of calling the police?
• __derek__ 4y ago
  Have you considered legal avenues to stop her from harassing your family?
  • wincy 4y ago
    It seems to have stopped. I’m not sure if they moved or she just gave up or what. This was two years ago and we were cautious about sending her to friends houses but she’s largely autonomous again. I think having a cell phone watch helps immensely (she can say “call mom” and “call dad” to Siri). Technically it was anonymous, so I’m not sure how I’d even make a complaint. We did call an attorney and strangely he just said “cooperate fully with CPS it’ll be fine”. Which I mean, it was in the end.
• ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  Folks that live in UMC* neighborhoods seldom see much of the "dark side" of CPS. I know about it from both sides. First, CPS exists for a reason. I have family that used to run a group home for kids that were made wards of the state. The things that people will do to their own children is infuriating and heartbreaking. I have also been involved in an organization that deals with a lot of this stuff, for years, and have seen it, firsthand. Child abuse also happens in UMC neighborhoods, but those folks are usually better at chasing away CPS cases, so you generally hear about them in less affluent areas, where the people don't have the means to fight (and also, the stress of living poor will often exacerbate child abuse/endangerment). Second, CPS is notoriously "un-constitutional." Parents are guilty until proved innocent, and the caseworkers have great authority to be absolute tyrants. Anonymous tips from skeezballs, are given the weight of a policeman's sworn affidavit. As a result, ratting out single moms to CPS is a favorite pastime of jerk ex-boyfriends. They make the poor girl (and, I guess, nowadays, boy)'s life a living hell, which they often can't bear, as they are already on the balls of their ass; not to mention tying up resources that could be better focused on real child abuse. People can really suck. *Upper Middle Class
  • bilbo0s 4y ago
    This is absolutely true. In the US there are so many situations that have gone south, that CPS and the courts have an almost learned reflex to never give breaks. These cases could be physical child abuse, or sex abuse, and could even go all the way up to death. As a kind of 'prototypical' example of what I'm talking about, Google Kamari Gholston [0]. And when these sorts of things happen, it never fails, all the 'parental rights advocates' out there that were previously pushing to be more lenient with parents scatter. And the judge and CPS are left holding the bag. (Some of the 'parental rights advocates' even flip flop, and now call for heads to roll, because now all of a sudden they are child welfare advocates. :eye roll:) So now the judge, the police and CPS have not only the political leaders and the general population asking uncomfortable questions, but CNN and Fox News trucks outside their homes asking questions as well. For the judge and the CPS workers, their careers are ruined not only locally, but nationally. There's no coming back from that. Well the other judges and CPS workers see what happens, and are that much less likely to give a single mother a break in the future for example. And it just iterates and escalates with each tortured, raped, or murdered (or all three) child. [0] - https://www.invisiblechildren.org/2022/06/23/kamari-gholstons-death-child-protection-in-mn/ https://www.invisiblechildren.org/2022/06/23/kamari-gholston...
• RavingGoat 4y ago
  This is common these days. People use CPS to try to bully people. I'm the white parent of a black son we adopted at birth. We live in a white middle class neighborhood but one neighbor doesn't like having a black kid living there. They've called CPS multiple times. It's always nerve racking because you don't know what can happen even if though the claims are bogus. They come to the door assuming you are guilty.
• jtbayly 4y ago
  > This wasn’t a problem until a woman with several foster children (I know this because she told me? I assume she was trying to virtue signal to me what a great person she was) moved into our neighborhood. One day she came to our house with our daughter in tow, telling us “it isn’t safe” and other nonsense. I don’t think anybody here has commented that the fact this woman fosters is actually directly connected to the fact that she reported you. It’s indicative of how broken the whole system is that the training to be a foster parent declares things like letting a 7-yo walk alone to be unsafe. Note that these are some of the same social workers that could be checking up on you when CPS is called. Thus, it is only a happy accident that there weren’t charges filed against you.
• cryptonector 4y ago
  [flagged]
• rasz 4y ago
  >One day she came to our house with our daughter in tow See, the problem could have been avoided by calling police right there and reporting a kidnapping.
• tomohawk 4y ago
  It would be a shame if someone called the health department after seeing a rat in your neighbor's yard.
• devwastaken 4y ago
  1. 4th amendment, never let police in your home voluntarily. 2. If the woman contacts your child again, file for restraining order. Tell your neighbors to do the same. People have rights, better stand up for them or they'll get trampled by blue policies like CPS, which have a long history of abuse and lack of care. Big adopters are also generally abusive parents. Sounds to me the woman is projecting.
• Am4TIfIsER0ppos 4y ago
  Let me get this straight. You let 3 state agents trick you into strapping a government tracking device to your child?
• kenned3 4y ago
  This is actually a fairly large problem these days. As you point out, you take people who just cant help but "virtue signal" and combine this with an anonymous reporting system and now that system is being abused. The other day I took my dog for a walk and a young girl (around 5) approached me to ask if she could pat him. I had a short conversation with the girl, told her to make sure she is careful with the roads (we met at an intersection) and asked if her parents know where she is. She told me she has a walky-talky and her mom is aware. I did not see a need to do anything further, the young girl knew her way home, she was like 5-6 houses away in a safe and quiet area. But some "stranger danger" nut jobs feel they have a duty to protect YOUR kids from their imagined danger? My dog is rather large and a rehome with some bad behaviour attributes so at times i need to be firm with him to encourage him to change. I certainly dont "beat" him as that accomplishes nothing, but he is "yelled at" and made to sit down and not allowed to continue walking until he calms down. someone reported me to animal control, who then came to my house. They were not able to tell me who called, when, what took place, etc. How do yo defend your actions when you are not allowed to know what the actions were? Flip side, if my large dog bit one of the off-leash dogs in the area the owners would then be reporting me for this? Cant discipline the dog for being bad around other dogs, cant let the dog be aggressive to other dogs? These reporting systems are rapidly becoming "weaponized".