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Vodafone and Deutsche Telekom to introduce persistent user tracking

215 points by mmazzarolo 4y ago

dane-pgp 4y ago
[flagged]
- Traubenfuchs 4y ago
  - dane-pgp 4y ago
    Correct. Another example was "If you take the vaccine then the government will be able to track your location", which also turned out to be true, from a certain point of view.[0] Anyway, judging by the reaction to my earlier comment, I perhaps should have phrased things differently, e.g. "I'm not sure how I feel about Deutsche Telekom being chosen by the WHO to implement their global vaccine passport app, given that this is how they treat their customers' personal data". [0] https://metro.co.uk/2021/05/23/thousands-had-phones-unwittingly-tracked-after-getting-vaccine-14630732/ https://metro.co.uk/2021/05/23/thousands-had-phones-unwittin...
unnecessaryuser 4y ago
- unnecessaryuser 4y ago
gigatexal 4y ago
This 100% means I’m going to be running a persistent VPN on my phone at all times. Great.
- juunpp 4y ago
  Or Orbot: https://guardianproject.info/apps/org.torproject.android/ https://guardianproject.info/apps/org.torproject.android/
  - RealStickman_ 4y ago
    Routing all your traffic through Tor would probably be painfully slow.
moehm 4y ago
The article mentions they are injecting a http header, so shouldn't https be enough to prevent tampering?
- turtleman1338 4y ago
  Yes, you can not just inject a http header when using SSL without breaking it.
  - lakomen 4y ago
    That's what I wonder, how will they actually do it?
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  That's only about how Verizon did it back in the day. They don't explain how Vodafone and DT are planning to technically achieve it, but it could simply be related to IP or similar lower level protocol addresses from 4/5G. As network operators, they have access to the Account:IP mapping, they don't necessarily need to inject anything special in the packets.
  - tomxor 4y ago
    Yup, there is no way to hide basic packet information from your ISP without some kind of tunnelling like Wiregaurd or TOR. I already stopped trusting my ISP after it was announced that one of the three UK LTE internet providers had implemented the "log absolutely everything" clause in the snoopers charter... I guess now the cats out of the bag, Vodafone is likely the provider, since they can probably build upon what they have already implemented and sell it to 3rd parties. Pretty gross.
  - mpeg 4y ago
    That wouldn’t work as they almost certainly use CGNAT so an IP address is shared with thousands of subscribers. If I had to guess, they probably have a process similar to a cookie sync to obtain this id.
account-5 4y ago
Can someone ELI5 how these operaters can track my websites if I'm using HTTPS and DoH? Sure they might see handshakes etc but what else can they see?
- aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
  They can't.
  - gruez 4y ago
    Not really. Based on the picture on the site[1], I can think of multiple ways of how that would work: 1. The site that wants visitor information makes a CORS/third party request to https://vodafone.example/api/GetSubscriberInfo https://vodafone.example/api/GetSubscriberInfo, which then fetches the associated account information and returns it to the site 2. The site notes the IP + port + timestamp that was used for the HTTP connection, and then asks vodafone for the information. [1] https://assets.simpleanalytics.com/blog/2022-Trustpid/vodafone-deutsche-telekom-trustpid.png https://assets.simpleanalytics.com/blog/2022-Trustpid/vodafo...
- fulafel 4y ago
  Traffic analysis + IP addresses would be one way. (But if the visited site is colluding with VF, your traffic is no longer protected from VF observation anyway)
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  The site operator asks Vodafone "what is the unique account ID for the machine accessing my site right now from 17.56.2.43:3452?", and Vodafone gives them an account ID. They can then use that account ID to correlate to previous interactions you had with their site, even if they were coming from different IPs. Https and DoH don't protect you in any way from the site operator wanting to serve you ads, and Vodafone will always know what IP:port they assigned you personally (well, your phone). Tor, VPN and proxy services can protect from this, since they decouple your original request from what the server receives. Of course, the latter two can also sell your information instead of Vodafone.
politician 4y ago
How is this compliant with the GDPR? Is the GDPR a complete joke?
- formerkrogemp 4y ago
  These companies operate in multiple countries. So, at a guess, they can implement this in areas where GDPR isn't a concern.
- mildmotive 4y ago
  I think once you sign a contract with one of these providers you’re basically signing away the rights to your personal information. GDPR wont protect you from state actors trying to spy on the people, but it will allow you to ask a company to delete all personal information about you. The problem is that doing so will effectively end the service for you. If all mobile carriers start enforcing predatory contracts then I don’t know if GDPR will be very effective here. Something additional will be required to stop this tracking. As it stands right now some European countries have started forcing ISPs to save logs, that’s actually worse. We must make sure that it’s well understood that the public does not want these policies. The public must also deny any party their vote if fixing this is not in their agenda. Politicians are getting away with slowly eroding our freedoms without many people noticing or speaking about it, that has to change. We need to let them know that they have zero support from us if they decide to continue in this trajectory.
  - pixl97 4y ago
    >If all mobile carriers start enforcing predatory contracts then I don’t know if GDPR will be very effective here. I would assume the EU would act much faster than the US to add regulation against this behavior.
  - AinderS 4y ago
    > If all mobile carriers start enforcing predatory contracts then I don’t know if GDPR will be very effective here. I thought the GDPR didn't allow signing away of privacy? Because if it does, then it's utterly useless - every webpage comes with a 100-page terms of service these days. > As it stands right now some European countries have started forcing ISPs to save logs, that’s actually worse. In fact the European Court of Justice declared that illegal [1], yet many countries simply ignored that ruling. You would think this would result in a large media assault about "subverting the rule of law", but I guess that's only a concern when they dislike the one doing the subverting. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-court-privacy-idUSKBN14A13I https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-court-privacy-idUSKBN1...
FredPret 4y ago
From the continent that brought you the last one million privacy cookie popups: ISP-level tracking
- 29083011397778 4y ago
  Dude, it's news when an American ISP doesn't participate in dragnet surveillance [0], and it's at the level where switching your ISP isn't going to help. [0]https://www.zdnet.com/article/new-details-releasedsection-702-disclosures-intelligence-lawsuit/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/new-details-releasedsection-70...
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
  I'm pretty confident it's from different people; not sure why "the same continent" would be meaningful.
  - FredPret 4y ago
    What is the point of subjecting humanity to GDPR if this is allowed?
    - boesboes 4y ago
      My guess, It won’t be for long. These adtech psychos always come up with crap like this, say it legal & get regulated. Eventually. Also. I don’t blame gpdr for shitty popups. I blame adtech. You can easily do websites without popups, they just don’t because they don’t respect their users.
Sporktacular 4y ago
"In addition, Apple is developing features to restrict network operators from intervening in the data traffic. This is called [iCloud Private Relay] which ensures providers no longer have access by encrypting and redirecting the data via Apple’s servers." This can be and is easily disabled by a network or mobile configuration. Vodafone and Deutsche Telekom will just do the same. https://developer.apple.com/support/prepare-your-network-for-icloud-private-relay https://developer.apple.com/support/prepare-your-network-for...
- olliej 4y ago
  Which I'm sure that the EU will firmly step in to prevent, much like they target Apple
  - zx8080 4y ago
    I suspect I know which side EU takes between foreign Apple corp vs national Telecom Operators. Or not?
    - foepys 4y ago
      Can you support your allegations with evidence? The EU already has a lot of regulations in place that particularly hurt EU companies. GDPR for example is good for citizens but requires extra effort by companies. Small US companies can ignore it until they are big enough to expand into the EU market but small EU companies need to follow the law from the start.
      - tuxie_ 4y ago
        I would like to point out that you request evidence and immediately proceed to make your own claims with no evidence.
        saiya-jin 4y ago
        He just written an example - all EU companies need to follow GDPR from day 1 if they also operate here. Do you need a list of few thousand companies to consider it good enough example? Another example - roaming charges dropped, this directly hurt all telcos big time.
upsidesinclude 4y ago
Drop them. Take the hit for once and do the right thing. If this is your provider, give them the message.
- Krasnol 4y ago
  Easy to say but hard to do since there are pretty much just 3 mobile providers in Germany. Those two and one with a shitty network (Telefonica-O2).
  - thisiscorrect 4y ago
    Would using a "multiplexing" carrier like Google Fi (I don't know the real term for it) that can switch between several others at least reduce the value of this tracking?
    - aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
      It'll reduce the value the high-level carrier derives at minimum.
    - juunpp 4y ago
      You're not suggesting to use Google Fi to reduce tracking, right? In any case, multiplexing wouldn't stop the tracking, and they might as well figure out just as much about you.
    - junon 4y ago
      Had Google Fi when I moved to Germany from the US. They cut off my service because it wasn't allowed to live in Germany and use them. Worked for a year then woke up day to have no phone number anymore and a completely rude support rep. So, no. This isn't an option.
  - Arnt 4y ago
    I did it and have been so happy. My family's now a "small business" with a business-only MVNO. Recommended.
  - 4y ago
Sporktacular 4y ago
So is this referring to Vodafone and Telekom networks everywhere, in Europe or just in some countries? Simpleanalytics is Netherlands based, so guess this is EU focussed.
- Tijdreiziger 4y ago
  They’re pretty vague about it: > Vodafone Group is currently conducting a test involving other European telecommunication providers including Deutsche Telekom and a few advertisers and publishers to investigate the benefits of a new technical solution to facilitate digital advertising and marketing. https://www.trustpid.com/findoutmore https://www.trustpid.com/findoutmore
Ekaros 4y ago
Just charge more if you aren't making enough money... Don't do this kind of underhanded crap.
- hrbf 4y ago
  Sadly, this is irrelevant. Running a corporation within a capitalist system will always optimize for maximum value extraction. Even if they can charge more in base price, this scheme always yields even more on top.
- rowanG077 4y ago
  And why exactly wouldn't they charge more and do this crap? That's even more money.
- snehk 4y ago
  The prices in Germany are already outrageous compared to other countries in Europe. I got a good deal and pay 30 Euro for unlimited data but I've recently checked for a friend and unlimited data would cost her about 70 Euro a month, which is ridiculous.
  - julianbuse 4y ago
    Yeah I pay 65 Euros a month for an unlimited mobile data plan with Deutsche Telekom, and that's with a young person discount and without a phone included.
- prymitive 4y ago
  If a company could charge you more for something then they are already doing it. Companies don’t ask themselves “what’s a fair price for x”, instead they wonder “how can we get more money out of our existing customers”.
faangiq 4y ago
Gotta milk those sheeple to the max.
- anaganisk 4y ago
  And then blaming us for using plastic straws, and gobbling up as much as energy they can every way possible to train algorithms and then serve ads. If you think about it top coders in ad revenue companies like Google/FB are ad marketers.
zelphirkalt 4y ago
Time to dump on them again: Vodafone has given me one of the worst Internet access experiences ever, in the middle of Europe. Their service is crap and people on the support line dare tell you, that you are a young person, so no need to get upset, when they give you shitte Internet service. They promise too much in their contracts and then cannot keep you a stable connection. Every now and then I get days, where the package loss is inacceptably high and my whole connection goes into garbage mode. Stay away from them if at all possible.
- juunpp 4y ago
  Hah, I also once had a technician come home to diagnose connectivity issues and in the process try to convince me that the shitty Internet speed I had was just fine for my needs, and how my needs were supposedly just as his. Do your goddamn job.
  - zx8080 4y ago
    Take money and do nothing seems like a better option. No human could resist it. Only when they fear something. It does not work any other way.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  The problem is how hard they are to avoid even when you try. I swore to never be a customer of them, after they screwed me over with a contract, then they eventually bought the major cable providers in Germany. Now there is no way around Vodafone if you are in a region where cable is a better option than ADSL.
- bmacho 4y ago
  > Vodafone has given me one of the worst Internet access experiences ever, in the middle of Europe. Literally the same, but probably very different: also in middle of Europe they have recently put me in a prepaid plan with free internet, and I find myself mindlessly scrolling when I have to do other things. It's easy to not to distract myself when I have to pay for it, but for free it's much harder.
- 4y ago
AlexandrB 4y ago
> It has become more challenging to monetize customer data, so the advertising market is looking for new solutions to tap into. They do not want to go back to non-personalized advertising, so they are pushing the frontier to see what’s still possible. The Trustpid trial is an example of this. Fuck the ad-tech industry. Seriously. Is there any line they won't cross?
- giantrobot 4y ago
  No. They're terrible.
- zx8080 4y ago
  There are literally no lines when money is at stake. Also, since there's a free market (by some kind), it makes world better. Or not. Who cares. Money is in spying on people, go take it!
  - smolder 4y ago
    Money is in ending human (and much other) life on earth with rapid resource depletion. Should we... go take it!? I think the ultimate sign a person is no smarter than a dog is their inability extend reason beyond their personal circumstances. Singularity theory was probably wrong about a convergence of technology and information to form a super-intelligence. We're just converging on a super-efficient stupidity. Collectively we're like a flame that will burn out.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Welcome to capitalism.
  - fithisux 4y ago
    Capitalism welcomes none.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      Those in Wall Street church have a different point of view.
totetsu 4y ago
10+ years ago at TELCO job, when listening to a meeting about how to pay for the lawful intercept database for complying with LEA warrants, I suggested making it a profit centre by making the data available to users themselves. Seems I was a bit ahead of the times and slightly off the mark with my terrible idea.
juunpp 4y ago
Damn, this is terrible. > Until now, these network operators did not interfere in the transmission and merely forwarded the data. As it should be!
mosselman 4y ago
This is exactly the reason why I am always so disappointed by many in the tech community in discussions about VPNs: In almost every discussion about VPNs people say something along the lines of: “you can’t trust the VPN provider more than your ISP”. This has always been a dumb argument and this completely proves it. ISPs are the worst. There is now only one in the Netherlands that I might trust (Freedom), but even they are using the network of another untrustworthy one (KPN) so I doubt they’d be able to do anything about it if the network owner would start something like this. A permanent VPN connection is becoming more and more logical as long as you trust the provider more than your ISP. I use Mullvad. Please let’s stop perpetuating the “now you are just moving the trust from ISP to VPN-provider” as a counter argument to using a VPN and start using it as a main reason to use VPN. Sad maybe, but necessary.
- timmytokyo 4y ago
  A VPN is also the only consistently good way to do ad-blocking on mobile. Mullvad, for instance, recently introduced ad-blocking, malware-blocking, and tracker-blocking in its mobile app. Previously I had to rely on the painfully poor ad-blockers that Apple allowed in its walled garden, and ads got through all the time. With the VPN, I am able to visit websites with virtually no ads appearing.
  - ornornor 4y ago
    FWIW, my family, friends, and I have been using nextdns on idevices, consoles, “smart” tv to almost completely block ads and tracking via dns black holing. Pihole does the same if you prefer selfhosted. Recalcitrant apps like YouTube have no known solution because they take care of their own dns resolution. But for most other use cases (browser, telemetry, iOS apps) it works very well and I almost never see any ad anywhere.
- ce4 4y ago
  I disagree - VPNs are not a solution for this whole issue, but legislation is. The whole VPN business looks shady to me, maybe Mullvad is an outlier and a good citizen, but for how long? Make data collection transparent, force companies to have opt-in for it and fine non-conforming companies. Dt. Telekom and Vodafone recently lost their zero rating business (StreamOn or what it was called), they're in constant search for new sources of revenue.
penguin_booze 4y ago
And EU regulators, who so far have been giving BitTech a hard time, are OK with this?
rswail 4y ago
The only way to stop this is via regulation. The mobile providers use public spectrum that they license from governments. Make it a condition of the license that they are only allowed to provide dumb pipes and PTSN services. It will reduce the value of the licenses, but not by much, because this is a service that they haven't introduced until now, so was not priced in to the original auctions. Note that while using VPNs will assist, the telcos have your IMEI/PSTN numbers and assign the underlying IP connection (whether CGNAT or otherwise). So they can track the traffic at the L2/L3 level. Then they can introduce a "merchant's service" that takes that traffic and maps it to an identifier that's provided to the websites/advertisers. Even if the L4 traffic is encrypted, the packets themselves could be extended to include the information they need before it exits their network.
- petra 4y ago
  But all they see is your IP connecting to the VPN IP. And the connection between the VPN and the site has a new IP connection, doesn't the VPN just send L4 data + its own user-ID?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
greatgib 4y ago
Vodafone and Deutsche Telekom have already filed a complaint to the European Commission to stop Apple from doing this. To me, the is the master level of being an asshole Company. Not only your are abusing your customers, but you even sue to ensure they can't use their rights... Really no one with common sense should use one of these providers. And I just imagine the senior manager there that decided or approved that. I hope so much that they are religious so that they know that they will go to hell directly!
- bakuninsbart 4y ago
  For internet, these are the 2 choices I have. Internet in Germany is a pretty terrible oligopoly.
  - rurban 4y ago
    It's a typical german cartel. In countries were they split up those cartels the prices went down and quality went up. I was once part of such a successful "Verfassungsklage".B ut it only did last for decade, then the cartels striked back. Not only in the telecom business, also in energy, press and automotive, and what ever else. The state actively protects them, with telecoms they can even setup their own rules and bylaws.
  - greatgib 4y ago
    Just found again the following thread on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32110631 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32110631
lakomen 4y ago
Was Verizon and are those 2 companies the only companies doing this? Are there any other known cases, just not made such fuss about in other countries? I know that the Croatian branch of the German Telekom is often used as a testbed for new developments, like their IPTV service or fiber overland, so I wouldn't be surprised if that already was reality in Croatia or other branches of one of those corps, just kept under the rug.

215 points by mmazzarolo 4y ago

dane-pgp 4y ago

[flagged]

Traubenfuchs 4y ago
- dane-pgp 4y ago
  Correct. Another example was "If you take the vaccine then the government will be able to track your location", which also turned out to be true, from a certain point of view.[0] Anyway, judging by the reaction to my earlier comment, I perhaps should have phrased things differently, e.g. "I'm not sure how I feel about Deutsche Telekom being chosen by the WHO to implement their global vaccine passport app, given that this is how they treat their customers' personal data". [0] https://metro.co.uk/2021/05/23/thousands-had-phones-unwittingly-tracked-after-getting-vaccine-14630732/ https://metro.co.uk/2021/05/23/thousands-had-phones-unwittin...

unnecessaryuser 4y ago

unnecessaryuser 4y ago

gigatexal 4y ago

This 100% means I’m going to be running a persistent VPN on my phone at all times. Great.

juunpp 4y ago
Or Orbot: https://guardianproject.info/apps/org.torproject.android/ https://guardianproject.info/apps/org.torproject.android/
- RealStickman_ 4y ago
  Routing all your traffic through Tor would probably be painfully slow.

moehm 4y ago

The article mentions they are injecting a http header, so shouldn't https be enough to prevent tampering?

turtleman1338 4y ago
Yes, you can not just inject a http header when using SSL without breaking it.
- lakomen 4y ago
  That's what I wonder, how will they actually do it?
tsimionescu 4y ago
That's only about how Verizon did it back in the day. They don't explain how Vodafone and DT are planning to technically achieve it, but it could simply be related to IP or similar lower level protocol addresses from 4/5G. As network operators, they have access to the Account:IP mapping, they don't necessarily need to inject anything special in the packets.
- tomxor 4y ago
  Yup, there is no way to hide basic packet information from your ISP without some kind of tunnelling like Wiregaurd or TOR. I already stopped trusting my ISP after it was announced that one of the three UK LTE internet providers had implemented the "log absolutely everything" clause in the snoopers charter... I guess now the cats out of the bag, Vodafone is likely the provider, since they can probably build upon what they have already implemented and sell it to 3rd parties. Pretty gross.
- mpeg 4y ago
  That wouldn’t work as they almost certainly use CGNAT so an IP address is shared with thousands of subscribers. If I had to guess, they probably have a process similar to a cookie sync to obtain this id.

account-5 4y ago

Can someone ELI5 how these operaters can track my websites if I'm using HTTPS and DoH? Sure they might see handshakes etc but what else can they see?

aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
They can't.
- gruez 4y ago
  Not really. Based on the picture on the site[1], I can think of multiple ways of how that would work: 1. The site that wants visitor information makes a CORS/third party request to https://vodafone.example/api/GetSubscriberInfo https://vodafone.example/api/GetSubscriberInfo, which then fetches the associated account information and returns it to the site 2. The site notes the IP + port + timestamp that was used for the HTTP connection, and then asks vodafone for the information. [1] https://assets.simpleanalytics.com/blog/2022-Trustpid/vodafone-deutsche-telekom-trustpid.png https://assets.simpleanalytics.com/blog/2022-Trustpid/vodafo...
fulafel 4y ago
Traffic analysis + IP addresses would be one way. (But if the visited site is colluding with VF, your traffic is no longer protected from VF observation anyway)
tsimionescu 4y ago
The site operator asks Vodafone "what is the unique account ID for the machine accessing my site right now from 17.56.2.43:3452?", and Vodafone gives them an account ID. They can then use that account ID to correlate to previous interactions you had with their site, even if they were coming from different IPs. Https and DoH don't protect you in any way from the site operator wanting to serve you ads, and Vodafone will always know what IP:port they assigned you personally (well, your phone). Tor, VPN and proxy services can protect from this, since they decouple your original request from what the server receives. Of course, the latter two can also sell your information instead of Vodafone.

politician 4y ago

How is this compliant with the GDPR? Is the GDPR a complete joke?

formerkrogemp 4y ago
These companies operate in multiple countries. So, at a guess, they can implement this in areas where GDPR isn't a concern.
mildmotive 4y ago
I think once you sign a contract with one of these providers you’re basically signing away the rights to your personal information. GDPR wont protect you from state actors trying to spy on the people, but it will allow you to ask a company to delete all personal information about you. The problem is that doing so will effectively end the service for you. If all mobile carriers start enforcing predatory contracts then I don’t know if GDPR will be very effective here. Something additional will be required to stop this tracking. As it stands right now some European countries have started forcing ISPs to save logs, that’s actually worse. We must make sure that it’s well understood that the public does not want these policies. The public must also deny any party their vote if fixing this is not in their agenda. Politicians are getting away with slowly eroding our freedoms without many people noticing or speaking about it, that has to change. We need to let them know that they have zero support from us if they decide to continue in this trajectory.
- pixl97 4y ago
  >If all mobile carriers start enforcing predatory contracts then I don’t know if GDPR will be very effective here. I would assume the EU would act much faster than the US to add regulation against this behavior.
- AinderS 4y ago
  > If all mobile carriers start enforcing predatory contracts then I don’t know if GDPR will be very effective here. I thought the GDPR didn't allow signing away of privacy? Because if it does, then it's utterly useless - every webpage comes with a 100-page terms of service these days. > As it stands right now some European countries have started forcing ISPs to save logs, that’s actually worse. In fact the European Court of Justice declared that illegal [1], yet many countries simply ignored that ruling. You would think this would result in a large media assault about "subverting the rule of law", but I guess that's only a concern when they dislike the one doing the subverting. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-court-privacy-idUSKBN14A13I https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-court-privacy-idUSKBN1...

FredPret 4y ago

From the continent that brought you the last one million privacy cookie popups: ISP-level tracking

29083011397778 4y ago
Dude, it's news when an American ISP doesn't participate in dragnet surveillance [0], and it's at the level where switching your ISP isn't going to help. [0]https://www.zdnet.com/article/new-details-releasedsection-702-disclosures-intelligence-lawsuit/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/new-details-releasedsection-70...
yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
I'm pretty confident it's from different people; not sure why "the same continent" would be meaningful.
- FredPret 4y ago
  What is the point of subjecting humanity to GDPR if this is allowed?
  - boesboes 4y ago
    My guess, It won’t be for long. These adtech psychos always come up with crap like this, say it legal & get regulated. Eventually. Also. I don’t blame gpdr for shitty popups. I blame adtech. You can easily do websites without popups, they just don’t because they don’t respect their users.

Sporktacular 4y ago

"In addition, Apple is developing features to restrict network operators from intervening in the data traffic. This is called [iCloud Private Relay] which ensures providers no longer have access by encrypting and redirecting the data via Apple’s servers." This can be and is easily disabled by a network or mobile configuration. Vodafone and Deutsche Telekom will just do the same. https://developer.apple.com/support/prepare-your-network-for-icloud-private-relay https://developer.apple.com/support/prepare-your-network-for...

olliej 4y ago
Which I'm sure that the EU will firmly step in to prevent, much like they target Apple
- zx8080 4y ago
  I suspect I know which side EU takes between foreign Apple corp vs national Telecom Operators. Or not?
  - foepys 4y ago
    Can you support your allegations with evidence? The EU already has a lot of regulations in place that particularly hurt EU companies. GDPR for example is good for citizens but requires extra effort by companies. Small US companies can ignore it until they are big enough to expand into the EU market but small EU companies need to follow the law from the start.
    - tuxie_ 4y ago
      I would like to point out that you request evidence and immediately proceed to make your own claims with no evidence.
      - saiya-jin 4y ago
        He just written an example - all EU companies need to follow GDPR from day 1 if they also operate here. Do you need a list of few thousand companies to consider it good enough example? Another example - roaming charges dropped, this directly hurt all telcos big time.

upsidesinclude 4y ago

Drop them. Take the hit for once and do the right thing. If this is your provider, give them the message.

Krasnol 4y ago
Easy to say but hard to do since there are pretty much just 3 mobile providers in Germany. Those two and one with a shitty network (Telefonica-O2).
- thisiscorrect 4y ago
  Would using a "multiplexing" carrier like Google Fi (I don't know the real term for it) that can switch between several others at least reduce the value of this tracking?
  - aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
    It'll reduce the value the high-level carrier derives at minimum.
  - juunpp 4y ago
    You're not suggesting to use Google Fi to reduce tracking, right? In any case, multiplexing wouldn't stop the tracking, and they might as well figure out just as much about you.
  - junon 4y ago
    Had Google Fi when I moved to Germany from the US. They cut off my service because it wasn't allowed to live in Germany and use them. Worked for a year then woke up day to have no phone number anymore and a completely rude support rep. So, no. This isn't an option.
- Arnt 4y ago
  I did it and have been so happy. My family's now a "small business" with a business-only MVNO. Recommended.
- 4y ago

Sporktacular 4y ago

So is this referring to Vodafone and Telekom networks everywhere, in Europe or just in some countries? Simpleanalytics is Netherlands based, so guess this is EU focussed.

Tijdreiziger 4y ago
They’re pretty vague about it: > Vodafone Group is currently conducting a test involving other European telecommunication providers including Deutsche Telekom and a few advertisers and publishers to investigate the benefits of a new technical solution to facilitate digital advertising and marketing. https://www.trustpid.com/findoutmore https://www.trustpid.com/findoutmore

Ekaros 4y ago

Just charge more if you aren't making enough money... Don't do this kind of underhanded crap.

hrbf 4y ago
Sadly, this is irrelevant. Running a corporation within a capitalist system will always optimize for maximum value extraction. Even if they can charge more in base price, this scheme always yields even more on top.
rowanG077 4y ago
And why exactly wouldn't they charge more and do this crap? That's even more money.
snehk 4y ago
The prices in Germany are already outrageous compared to other countries in Europe. I got a good deal and pay 30 Euro for unlimited data but I've recently checked for a friend and unlimited data would cost her about 70 Euro a month, which is ridiculous.
- julianbuse 4y ago
  Yeah I pay 65 Euros a month for an unlimited mobile data plan with Deutsche Telekom, and that's with a young person discount and without a phone included.
prymitive 4y ago
If a company could charge you more for something then they are already doing it. Companies don’t ask themselves “what’s a fair price for x”, instead they wonder “how can we get more money out of our existing customers”.

faangiq 4y ago

Gotta milk those sheeple to the max.

anaganisk 4y ago
And then blaming us for using plastic straws, and gobbling up as much as energy they can every way possible to train algorithms and then serve ads. If you think about it top coders in ad revenue companies like Google/FB are ad marketers.

zelphirkalt 4y ago

Time to dump on them again: Vodafone has given me one of the worst Internet access experiences ever, in the middle of Europe. Their service is crap and people on the support line dare tell you, that you are a young person, so no need to get upset, when they give you shitte Internet service. They promise too much in their contracts and then cannot keep you a stable connection. Every now and then I get days, where the package loss is inacceptably high and my whole connection goes into garbage mode. Stay away from them if at all possible.

juunpp 4y ago
Hah, I also once had a technician come home to diagnose connectivity issues and in the process try to convince me that the shitty Internet speed I had was just fine for my needs, and how my needs were supposedly just as his. Do your goddamn job.
- zx8080 4y ago
  Take money and do nothing seems like a better option. No human could resist it. Only when they fear something. It does not work any other way.
pjmlp 4y ago
The problem is how hard they are to avoid even when you try. I swore to never be a customer of them, after they screwed me over with a contract, then they eventually bought the major cable providers in Germany. Now there is no way around Vodafone if you are in a region where cable is a better option than ADSL.
bmacho 4y ago
> Vodafone has given me one of the worst Internet access experiences ever, in the middle of Europe. Literally the same, but probably very different: also in middle of Europe they have recently put me in a prepaid plan with free internet, and I find myself mindlessly scrolling when I have to do other things. It's easy to not to distract myself when I have to pay for it, but for free it's much harder.
4y ago

AlexandrB 4y ago

> It has become more challenging to monetize customer data, so the advertising market is looking for new solutions to tap into. They do not want to go back to non-personalized advertising, so they are pushing the frontier to see what’s still possible. The Trustpid trial is an example of this. Fuck the ad-tech industry. Seriously. Is there any line they won't cross?

giantrobot 4y ago
No. They're terrible.
zx8080 4y ago
There are literally no lines when money is at stake. Also, since there's a free market (by some kind), it makes world better. Or not. Who cares. Money is in spying on people, go take it!
- smolder 4y ago
  Money is in ending human (and much other) life on earth with rapid resource depletion. Should we... go take it!? I think the ultimate sign a person is no smarter than a dog is their inability extend reason beyond their personal circumstances. Singularity theory was probably wrong about a convergence of technology and information to form a super-intelligence. We're just converging on a super-efficient stupidity. Collectively we're like a flame that will burn out.
pjmlp 4y ago
Welcome to capitalism.
- fithisux 4y ago
  Capitalism welcomes none.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Those in Wall Street church have a different point of view.

totetsu 4y ago

10+ years ago at TELCO job, when listening to a meeting about how to pay for the lawful intercept database for complying with LEA warrants, I suggested making it a profit centre by making the data available to users themselves. Seems I was a bit ahead of the times and slightly off the mark with my terrible idea.

juunpp 4y ago

Damn, this is terrible. > Until now, these network operators did not interfere in the transmission and merely forwarded the data. As it should be!

mosselman 4y ago

This is exactly the reason why I am always so disappointed by many in the tech community in discussions about VPNs: In almost every discussion about VPNs people say something along the lines of: “you can’t trust the VPN provider more than your ISP”. This has always been a dumb argument and this completely proves it. ISPs are the worst. There is now only one in the Netherlands that I might trust (Freedom), but even they are using the network of another untrustworthy one (KPN) so I doubt they’d be able to do anything about it if the network owner would start something like this. A permanent VPN connection is becoming more and more logical as long as you trust the provider more than your ISP. I use Mullvad. Please let’s stop perpetuating the “now you are just moving the trust from ISP to VPN-provider” as a counter argument to using a VPN and start using it as a main reason to use VPN. Sad maybe, but necessary.

timmytokyo 4y ago
A VPN is also the only consistently good way to do ad-blocking on mobile. Mullvad, for instance, recently introduced ad-blocking, malware-blocking, and tracker-blocking in its mobile app. Previously I had to rely on the painfully poor ad-blockers that Apple allowed in its walled garden, and ads got through all the time. With the VPN, I am able to visit websites with virtually no ads appearing.
- ornornor 4y ago
  FWIW, my family, friends, and I have been using nextdns on idevices, consoles, “smart” tv to almost completely block ads and tracking via dns black holing. Pihole does the same if you prefer selfhosted. Recalcitrant apps like YouTube have no known solution because they take care of their own dns resolution. But for most other use cases (browser, telemetry, iOS apps) it works very well and I almost never see any ad anywhere.
ce4 4y ago
I disagree - VPNs are not a solution for this whole issue, but legislation is. The whole VPN business looks shady to me, maybe Mullvad is an outlier and a good citizen, but for how long? Make data collection transparent, force companies to have opt-in for it and fine non-conforming companies. Dt. Telekom and Vodafone recently lost their zero rating business (StreamOn or what it was called), they're in constant search for new sources of revenue.

penguin_booze 4y ago

And EU regulators, who so far have been giving BitTech a hard time, are OK with this?

rswail 4y ago

The only way to stop this is via regulation. The mobile providers use public spectrum that they license from governments. Make it a condition of the license that they are only allowed to provide dumb pipes and PTSN services. It will reduce the value of the licenses, but not by much, because this is a service that they haven't introduced until now, so was not priced in to the original auctions. Note that while using VPNs will assist, the telcos have your IMEI/PSTN numbers and assign the underlying IP connection (whether CGNAT or otherwise). So they can track the traffic at the L2/L3 level. Then they can introduce a "merchant's service" that takes that traffic and maps it to an identifier that's provided to the websites/advertisers. Even if the L4 traffic is encrypted, the packets themselves could be extended to include the information they need before it exits their network.

petra 4y ago
But all they see is your IP connecting to the VPN IP. And the connection between the VPN and the site has a new IP connection, doesn't the VPN just send L4 data + its own user-ID?

deleted 4y ago

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greatgib 4y ago

Vodafone and Deutsche Telekom have already filed a complaint to the European Commission to stop Apple from doing this. To me, the is the master level of being an asshole Company. Not only your are abusing your customers, but you even sue to ensure they can't use their rights... Really no one with common sense should use one of these providers. And I just imagine the senior manager there that decided or approved that. I hope so much that they are religious so that they know that they will go to hell directly!

bakuninsbart 4y ago
For internet, these are the 2 choices I have. Internet in Germany is a pretty terrible oligopoly.
- rurban 4y ago
  It's a typical german cartel. In countries were they split up those cartels the prices went down and quality went up. I was once part of such a successful "Verfassungsklage".B ut it only did last for decade, then the cartels striked back. Not only in the telecom business, also in energy, press and automotive, and what ever else. The state actively protects them, with telecoms they can even setup their own rules and bylaws.
- greatgib 4y ago
  Just found again the following thread on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32110631 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32110631

lakomen 4y ago

Was Verizon and are those 2 companies the only companies doing this? Are there any other known cases, just not made such fuss about in other countries? I know that the Croatian branch of the German Telekom is often used as a testbed for new developments, like their IPTV service or fiber overland, so I wouldn't be surprised if that already was reality in Croatia or other branches of one of those corps, just kept under the rug.