4 ms·

I think the actual firing is very objective. He was under NDA but violated it. They reminded him to please not talk in public about NDA-ed stuff and he kept do

I think the actual firing is very objective. He was under NDA but violated it. They reminded him to please not talk in public about NDA-ed stuff and he kept doing it. So now they fired him with a gentle reminder that "it's regrettable that [..] Blake still chose to persistently violate [..] data security policies". And from a purely practical point of view, I believe it doesn't even matter if Lemoine's theory of sentience turns out to be correct or wrong. Also, we as society have already chosen how to deal with sentient beings, and it's mostly ignorance. There has been a lot of research on what animals can or cannot feel and how they grieve the loss of a family member. Yet we still regularly kill their family members in cruel ways so that we can eat their meat. Why would our society as a whole treat sentient AIs better than a cow or a pig or a chicken?

lagrange77 4y ago
Right. > Also, we as society have already chosen how to deal with sentient beings, and it's mostly ignorance. The Orville Season 3 Episode 7 is about that theme. Highly recommend it.
- tjpnz 4y ago
  Off topic but season 3 has been fantastic. I hope there'll be a season 4.
- jasonm23 4y ago
  I was thinking about the Kaylon events too. Humans abusing entities like that is unimaginable though isn't it. /S
pgcj_poster 4y ago
> Why would our society as a whole treat sentient AIs better than a cow or a pig or a chicken? Well, for one thing, the norm of eating meat was established long before our current moral sensibilities were developed. I suspect that if cows or pigs were discovered today, Westerners would view eating them the same as we view other cultures eating whales or dogs. If we didn't eat meat at all and someone started doing it, I think we would probably put them in jail. Sentient AI have a big advantage over animals in this respect on account of their current non-existence.
- derangedHorse 4y ago
  Are you saying norms established before our current moral sensibilities it goes under our current radar? If you are I wholeheartedly disagree with that sentiment. We still eat pigs and chickens because we've culturally decided as a society that having the luxury of eating meat ranks higher than our moral sensibilities towards preserving sentient life in our list of priorities. Instead we've just chosen to minimize the suffering leading to the loss of life as an attempt to reach some kind of moral middle ground.
  - pwpw 4y ago
    Have we really chosen to minimize the suffering? That seems more like virtue signaling by the industry at most. Factory farming is very much still the norm, and it's horrific. It seems we've actually maximized it or have at least increased it above the previous norm. I'm unsure how we would treat a sentient AI, but our track record with sentient, intelligent animals is one of torture and covering up that torture with lies. It's an out of sight, out of mind policy.
  - denton-scratch 4y ago
    We eat pigs and chickens because they are high-value nutrition. It's reasonable to describe meat as a luxury; but not in the sense of something nice but unnecessary. Many people depend on meat, especially if they live somewhere that's not suited to agriculture, like the arctic. And many people depend on fish.
  - pgcj_poster 4y ago
    > Are you saying norms established before our current moral sensibilities it goes under our current radar? Yes. That's clearly something that happens in human society. For instance, many of the US founding fathers were aware that slavery contradicted the principles they were fighting for. However, slavery was so ingrained in their society that most didn't advocate for abolition, or even free their own slaves. > We still eat pigs and chickens because we've culturally decided as a society that having the luxury of eating meat ranks higher than our moral sensibilities towards preserving sentient life in our list of priorities. If that's the case, then why do most Westerners object to eating dogs and whales? As far as I can tell, it's just because we have an established norm of eating pigs and chickens but not dogs or whales. > Instead we've just chosen to minimize the suffering leading to the loss of life 99% of meat is produced in factory farms. It's legal and routine for chickens to have their beaks cut off to prevent them from packing each other to death, which they're prone to do when confined to tiny cages. Most consumers object to such practices when asked, but meat consumption is so ingrained in our culture that most people just choose not to think about.
elif 4y ago
If he truly believed it to be life, and in danger of being destroyed, he has an obligation to whistle blow. "The Measure of a Man" in season 2 of Star Trek The Next Generation comes to mind.
- treeman79 4y ago
  This mirrors a recent Supreme Court cases and the beliefs of both sides.
  - JasonFruit 4y ago
    I had wondered when I first heard of this if it was some sort of performance art in support of the unborn. It appears not, but it was still thought-provoking.
  - pohl 4y ago
    I hadn't thought of it that way, but you're exactly right. Will we ever see a day where the currently-unthinkable is commonly accepted: that women are sentient?
    - hallway_monitor 4y ago
      When is a fetus sentient?
      - MandieD 4y ago
        Until it has its first period, apparently.
    - ARandomerDude 4y ago
      Who is arguing that women aren't sentient?
      - pohl 4y ago
jasonm23 4y ago
Well with animals we obviously dominate them. The potential issues with dealing with GAI is that we haven't ever had to deal with intelligences and potential that far exceeds us. He may be completely wrong about LaMdA but if we did accidentally or intentionally give rise to truly sentient machines. We are going to be in hot water.
dcow 4y ago
Yeah yeah I have no issue with the firing. He was causing problems and broke rules. It’s not productive to keep him around. I don’t feel like he was discriminated against, etc. That much is objective. My comment is challenging the “I know how the software works and it’s undoubtably not sentient” assertion. Sure seems that way to me too, but it didn't to Lemoine and we’re only going to get better at building systems that convince people they are sentient. I am curious so to speak that as a society we’ve focused so much on rational and empirical study of the universe yet we still can’t objectively define sentience. Perhaps we’re stuck in a Kuhn rut. I agree recent events have also highlighted this problem per-say. And I don’t know a solution. I do look forward to backing out of our hyper-rational rut slightly as a society so we can make more progress answering questions that science can’t currently answer.

lagrange77 4y ago

Right. > Also, we as society have already chosen how to deal with sentient beings, and it's mostly ignorance. The Orville Season 3 Episode 7 is about that theme. Highly recommend it.

tjpnz 4y ago
Off topic but season 3 has been fantastic. I hope there'll be a season 4.
jasonm23 4y ago
I was thinking about the Kaylon events too. Humans abusing entities like that is unimaginable though isn't it. /S

pgcj_poster 4y ago

> Why would our society as a whole treat sentient AIs better than a cow or a pig or a chicken? Well, for one thing, the norm of eating meat was established long before our current moral sensibilities were developed. I suspect that if cows or pigs were discovered today, Westerners would view eating them the same as we view other cultures eating whales or dogs. If we didn't eat meat at all and someone started doing it, I think we would probably put them in jail. Sentient AI have a big advantage over animals in this respect on account of their current non-existence.

derangedHorse 4y ago
Are you saying norms established before our current moral sensibilities it goes under our current radar? If you are I wholeheartedly disagree with that sentiment. We still eat pigs and chickens because we've culturally decided as a society that having the luxury of eating meat ranks higher than our moral sensibilities towards preserving sentient life in our list of priorities. Instead we've just chosen to minimize the suffering leading to the loss of life as an attempt to reach some kind of moral middle ground.
- pwpw 4y ago
  Have we really chosen to minimize the suffering? That seems more like virtue signaling by the industry at most. Factory farming is very much still the norm, and it's horrific. It seems we've actually maximized it or have at least increased it above the previous norm. I'm unsure how we would treat a sentient AI, but our track record with sentient, intelligent animals is one of torture and covering up that torture with lies. It's an out of sight, out of mind policy.
- denton-scratch 4y ago
  We eat pigs and chickens because they are high-value nutrition. It's reasonable to describe meat as a luxury; but not in the sense of something nice but unnecessary. Many people depend on meat, especially if they live somewhere that's not suited to agriculture, like the arctic. And many people depend on fish.
- pgcj_poster 4y ago
  > Are you saying norms established before our current moral sensibilities it goes under our current radar? Yes. That's clearly something that happens in human society. For instance, many of the US founding fathers were aware that slavery contradicted the principles they were fighting for. However, slavery was so ingrained in their society that most didn't advocate for abolition, or even free their own slaves. > We still eat pigs and chickens because we've culturally decided as a society that having the luxury of eating meat ranks higher than our moral sensibilities towards preserving sentient life in our list of priorities. If that's the case, then why do most Westerners object to eating dogs and whales? As far as I can tell, it's just because we have an established norm of eating pigs and chickens but not dogs or whales. > Instead we've just chosen to minimize the suffering leading to the loss of life 99% of meat is produced in factory farms. It's legal and routine for chickens to have their beaks cut off to prevent them from packing each other to death, which they're prone to do when confined to tiny cages. Most consumers object to such practices when asked, but meat consumption is so ingrained in our culture that most people just choose not to think about.

elif 4y ago

If he truly believed it to be life, and in danger of being destroyed, he has an obligation to whistle blow. "The Measure of a Man" in season 2 of Star Trek The Next Generation comes to mind.

treeman79 4y ago
This mirrors a recent Supreme Court cases and the beliefs of both sides.
- JasonFruit 4y ago
  I had wondered when I first heard of this if it was some sort of performance art in support of the unborn. It appears not, but it was still thought-provoking.
- pohl 4y ago
  I hadn't thought of it that way, but you're exactly right. Will we ever see a day where the currently-unthinkable is commonly accepted: that women are sentient?
  - hallway_monitor 4y ago
    When is a fetus sentient?
    - MandieD 4y ago
      Until it has its first period, apparently.
  - ARandomerDude 4y ago
    Who is arguing that women aren't sentient?
    - pohl 4y ago

jasonm23 4y ago

Well with animals we obviously dominate them. The potential issues with dealing with GAI is that we haven't ever had to deal with intelligences and potential that far exceeds us. He may be completely wrong about LaMdA but if we did accidentally or intentionally give rise to truly sentient machines. We are going to be in hot water.

dcow 4y ago

Yeah yeah I have no issue with the firing. He was causing problems and broke rules. It’s not productive to keep him around. I don’t feel like he was discriminated against, etc. That much is objective. My comment is challenging the “I know how the software works and it’s undoubtably not sentient” assertion. Sure seems that way to me too, but it didn't to Lemoine and we’re only going to get better at building systems that convince people they are sentient. I am curious so to speak that as a society we’ve focused so much on rational and empirical study of the universe yet we still can’t objectively define sentience. Perhaps we’re stuck in a Kuhn rut. I agree recent events have also highlighted this problem per-say. And I don’t know a solution. I do look forward to backing out of our hyper-rational rut slightly as a society so we can make more progress answering questions that science can’t currently answer.