11 ms·

Where Expats Should (Not) Move in 2022

61 points by rzk 4y ago

SeanLuke 4y ago
So Mexico is highly ranked and Italy is near the bottom? Sure, Italy is drowning in red tape, but bureaucracy in Mexico is greased with corruption. And by nearly any quality of life measure I can think of, Italy is far, far ahead of Mexico. There is something very seriously wrong with this ranking system. It also depends on where you're applying for stuff in Italy. For example, I had to apply for a Permesso di Soggiorno (kind of the Italian green card) to stay longer than normal for a sabbatical. In Rome it was essentially impossible: unbelievable intentional roadblocks were put up at every stage, all the way down to the application station being in a pseudo-prison far outside of Rome with no bus service. Very clearly designed, at all cost, to prevent people from applying. I eventually gave up applying in Rome. BUT in Forli, in Northern Italy, application was a breeze, straightforward and fast, helpful service with a smile.
- iso8859-1 4y ago
  Maybe it is because a lot of US citizens go to Mexico to surf and drink but don't really settle, and hence don't need bureaucracy? There are many different kinds of expats.
- ianai 4y ago
  I don’t think I’d step foot in Italy with how their legal system works. Guilty until proven innocent.
  - JustARandomGuy 4y ago
    Not knowing anything about Italy myself, can you expand or link to something describing the problems? Would like to learn more.
    - Cupertino95014 4y ago
      He's probably thinking of Amanda Knox [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanda_Knox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanda_Knox
      - ianai 4y ago
        Hers is a good example. But realistically it’s important to be aware of differences in fundamental things like legal systems just like cultural differences when traveling or discussions like this about places expats like or don’t. You can just go on YouTube and hear accounts of this type of stuff and culture shock is real. It’s possible to get serious culture shock going from one US state to another (or town/city) so of course different countries are going to be consequential.
  - seanhunter 4y ago
    Not sure where you got that from, but that's not how Italian law works. 'The Italian criminal system is broadly an adversarial system and is governed by the presumption of innocence. The burden of proof falls on the Public Prosecutor, who must prove the guilt of an accused person. The standard of proof required is "beyond a reasonable doubt". Unless this standard is met the defendant must be acquitted. The court must consider and evaluate any doubt a reasonable person could have.'[1] [1] https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/w-007-7826?contextData=%28sc.Default%29&transitionType=Default#co_anchor_a389887 https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/w-007-7826?contex...
    - ianai 4y ago
      Quick google shows that to be not entirely accurate. It’s a complicated system in ways I wouldn’t want to go near. https://www.britannica.com/place/Italy/Justice https://www.britannica.com/place/Italy/Justice
      - mdp2021 4y ago
        It is still obscure - after having read the section in the Britannica - what you find "to be avoided".
      - SeanLuke 4y ago
        I see nothing in that link that suggests anything of the sort. The problem Amanda Knox faced -- and I presume this is really boiling down to her -- is that Italy doesn't have double jeopardy. So the prosecutor kept retrying her, and the court kept acquitting her. If you don't like that I suggest you also stay away from Japan, among many Asian countries. Though Japan has double jeopardy, sort of, police can and will arrest you, hold you for a significant amount of time, then release you prior to trial and re-arrest you again over and over again, just by adding new trivial charges. This is what happened to Carlos Ghosn (whether he deserved it is another question).
        ianai 4y ago
        Please don’t presume to know me nor my personal thoughts. Thanks for really weirding me out.
- onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
  > And by nearly any quality of life measure I can think of, Italy is far, far ahead of Mexico. I agree with you that Italy is probably hands down a better choice - but if you want to live in a city - it is tough to beat the nicer neighborhoods in Mexico City for quality of life and affordability and being in the same time zone. If you want to live in the hills, or a small town, Italy is tough to beat.
  - Jcampuzano2 4y ago
    Lived in Mexico for the better part of this year until recent. Wholeheartedly agree. Could still be in the same time zone (or close) as my job so no issues there, CDMX is extremely affordable by US standards, the city is beautiful (in the nicer neighborhoods) and the weather is great during the dry season. Plenty of co-working spaces or cafes to go to, and the city is very friendly to expats from my experience. Helps also knowing Spanish but I know plenty of friends who didn't know a word of it and enjoy their experience.
    - iso8859-1 4y ago
      How did you get to know people in CDMX?
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- m463 4y ago
  Honestly, it sounds like the DMV in california. The DMV locations in populated areas have long lines and wait times, but the ones in outlying areas are less crowded and even pleasant.
  - khuey 4y ago
    Even in urban California the DMV is mostly fine if you have an appointment.
    - hansvm 4y ago
      They always made me wait in the same outdoor line as everyone else even with an appointment. I've never had an urban CA DMV trip takes less than 2h.
      - khuey 4y ago
        At the one in SF they have two (poorly marked) lines.
- aaron695 4y ago
b20000 4y ago
i’m wondering how safe mexico really is once you want to spend some of your money, buy a nice house or car, etc. with thailand i’ve heard stories of “farang prices” where you pay 10x for medical care compared to locals. a friend of mine in laos had to travel to thailand every time he needed care.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  > with thailand i’ve heard stories of “farang prices” where you pay 10x for medical care compared to locals. Which is still next to nothing, isn't it?
  - jwilber 4y ago
    Depends on your definition of nothing. Cheaper than America, obviously (which country isn’t for medical care?). It’s pricier than Vietnam, where I spent $500 for 2 nights of hospital stay in a private wing for a super bad fever.
  - b20000 4y ago
    I don't think that $100 for a tetanus injection is particularly cheap in Thailand.
- coffee_beqn 4y ago
  Many SEA countries are effectively third world. It’s no wonder they have to go to Thailand for western-ish level medical care. The locals will not have the option at all so it’s not really a fair comparison
- distantaidenn 4y ago
  Lived in Thailand for a bit. The "foreigner tax" (farang is usually reserved for White foreigners) is usually for untraceable cash payments (i.e. taxis, stalls, etc.) and government ran spaces (national parks, etc). In the case of the latter, usually foreigners pay 5X for entry -- this is government mandated. Now, as for the former, it's more for gullible tourist fresh off the boat. I was drunkenly making my way home one night, and hopped in a taxi. Guy told me something like 1,500 baht ($40 USD). I just laughed at the guy and said "meter", followed by him giving me a knowing look and a laugh as he turned on the meter. It was a 5 minute drive and ended up costing like 50 baht...If you know, then you know. Aside from the constant absurd and abusive racism handed out by Thai police in BKK, the country is an amazing place to live. Safe and friendly. And, I want to make it clear that I only received racist attacks (physical and verbal) from cops in BKK and nowhere else in the country -- but of course, everything became fine once they realized I was an American...
lioeters 4y ago
Summary: • Mexico, Indonesia, Taiwan, Portugal, Spain, the UAE, Vietnam, Thailand, Australia, and Singapore are the best destinations for expats in 2022. • The worst destinations for expats are Kuwait (52nd), New Zealand, Hong Kong, Cyprus, Luxembourg, Japan, South Africa, Turkey, Italy, and Malta (43rd).
- onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
  Why is Italy so low??
  - ithkuil 4y ago
    And what's wrong with New Zealand?
    - EdwardDiego 4y ago
      We have lower salaries and higher living costs compared to other countries. That's fair and true. The bit about a "lack of culture and nightlife" is... interesting. What kinda culture were they looking for? The criticism that it's hard to get a job implies that the people answering it aren't coming in on skilled migrant visas, as those require an employer to a) sponsor you and b) document that they weren't able to fill your role in NZ, so you'd already have a job. So it makes me wonder if the people answering it had come over on student visas that became residency visas after completing their studies, in which case you're competing with all the other graduates (and we have had problems with private training establishments that were effectively set up to sell visas, so the "level 6 diploma in Business" you acquire from them has no value in the job market.
    - willcipriano 4y ago
      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i3HokGUffcU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i3HokGUffcU
    - refurb 4y ago
      The very fact Kiwis flee to Australia for better pay and lower cost of living should tell you something.
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ipnon 4y ago
I just moved to Taiwan from the States. It feels risky given the political situation. It seemed like the Russo-Ukrainian war would be a perpetual stalemate, and then one day everything changed. Taiwan is a beautiful country, and the Taiwanese people don’t deserve to be threatened with invasion. I suppose by moving I am betting that the risk is less than 50%, but I don’t think it’s 0. The United States enjoy a geopolitical security that may not be appreciated until you leave.
- flyinglizard 4y ago
  You (probably) get better personal safety in Taiwan, and if China decides to have a go you’ll likely get enough of an advance notice and will have evacuation options courtesy of the US Navy. I wouldn’t worry.
  - mwint 4y ago
    Honest question, what dynamics make you think China would give advance notice?
    - runnerup 4y ago
      They have to stage a ton of equipment and personnel near the coast before launching an invasion. USA will have a 2-3 month heads up if the only intelligence they have is satellite photos.
      - arroz 4y ago
        If that is how they go about it They could also just blow up all government buildings from afar
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        NhanH 4y ago
        China isn’t looking to obliterate Taiwan off the earth. They wage a war to unite the country: they need a functioning Taiwan as much as possible after the war ends. To put it another way, they considers it to be a civil war, and will give plenty of warning in order to convince everyone else to stay out of the way.
natoliniak 4y ago
what is an "expat"? an immigrant? migrant? a special kind of immigrant? hm...
- darth_avocado 4y ago
  You’re an expat if you’re white, otherwise you’re an immigrant.
  - refurb 4y ago
    The internet loves to make everything about race, but no. Expat = temporary Immigrant = permanent
    - decebalus1 4y ago
      Not really. For example UAE is on the list as a top destination for expats. However, laborers from poor countries would probably have a different view on things in terms of career advancement or cultural integration. They're not permanent. I mean if your 'owner' holds your passport hostage you're more permanent than temporary. They're not really 'expats' in the context of the 'study'.
      - refurb 4y ago
        Are you arguing foreign workers in UAE are "immigrants"? They aren't. And sure, lower income foreign workers might have it worse than rich foreign workers, but they still come for the benefits.
        eesmith 4y ago
        The argument is that by your definition temporary foreign workers in the UAE are expats, since they are not immigrants. This report, however, does not appear to include them in their survey, suggesting a mismatch between your definition, and that used by an organization which claims to be "the largest global expat network" with "4.5 million members." Indeed, you'll be hard pressed to find poor temporary workers from less developed described as "expats". For example, I've noticed few people refer to the ~200K low-skilled temporary Mexican laborers in the US under the H-2A visa as "expats", even though they fit your definition. I've further noticed that "illegal immigrant" is used even for people who intend only temporary residence in the destination country.
decebalus1 4y ago
UAE? Really? Is this some sort of satire? Because I'm honestly laughing.
- thematrixturtle 4y ago
  The UAE gets a lot of expats because a firehose of money plus a low cost of living (taxes, cars, maids, eating out etc) compared to most anywhere in the Western world makes up for a lot of other issues.
  - decebalus1 4y ago
    Did they also ask the laborers from India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, etc.. how it's going in Dubai? Or they're not expats enough? More like.. migrant workers.
gernb 4y ago
I get why Japan is near the bottom for some people but, as someone that's lived there for a while > 10yrs, I found the paragraph describing the problems kind of ridiculous > Expats find it hard to pay without cash (20% vs. 8% globally) So what? It's safe to carry cash in Japan and you can get cash at every 7/11 of which there is almost always one within 4 minutes walking distance > and are unhappy with the availability of government services online (35% vs. 21% globally). I have pretty much never needed government services in my life. That would be slightly inconvenient for the once every 2 or 3 years I'd have to interact with the government seems like an extremely trivial point and nothing to do with actual quality of life > The country also lands in the bottom 10 for both the Ease of Settling In (45th) True for many > — 30% find it hard to get used to the local culture (vs. 19% globally) Yea, you need to speak Japanese. You can get by but it's not like moving to Scandinavia or Western Europe where many countries you can trivially get by without speaking the local language. You can add Singapore and maybe Malaysia to that list but Taiwan being near the top? I'd expect the same there. Either you learn Mandarin or life is going to be lonely and you'll be left out of most stuff. > Moreover, 25% feel they are not fairly paid for their work (vs. 20% globally). This is very true. Engineers for example probably have a cap of $80k year unless you work for a western company.
- kstenerud 4y ago
  The biggest problem with Japan is that as a gaijin (gomen, gaiKOKUjin) you'll never really be accepted there, any more than a Turk would be accepted in Germany. That and the economic bomb that everyone keeps kicking down the road...
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- chasil 4y ago
  After Carlos Ghosn, the criminal justice system is a deal-breaker.
- skinpop 4y ago
doctoboggan 4y ago
My wife and I just moved back to the US after living in NZ for 1.5 years. Sure, the cost of living is higher and yes the pay is lower. We went in knowing both of those things. NZ is a great country for people who love nature and the outdoors. The citizenry seem to have a higher level of respect for nature and how to protect it. There is also socialized medicine and the ACC covering all accidents on NZ soil is great, so comparing costs directly isn't the same. However not everything is great, it does feel a little isolating being on the other side of the world on a tiny island and their covid controls did start to feel a little draconian. (Even after we got more than 90% of the eligible population vaxed we were still in a strict lockdown with almost no-one allowed through the borders). Overall I was sad to leave, but our families are both in the US and ultimately it was time to come home.
- mwint 4y ago
  What’s your read on the average New Zealander’s opinion of ongoing lockdowns? Are they generally in favor, or is the gov’t out of touch?
  - doctoboggan 4y ago
    At first, the average kiwi's opinion was definitely in favor. The lockdowns initially worked to entirely stamp out covid and allowed NZ to return to relatively normal operations while the rest of the world was still in lockdown. But with omicron, even NZ's strict border control couldn't keep it out. Even still most people seemed to favor the lockdowns to slow the spread while we were vaccinating (NZ was near the bottom of the list in receiving vaccines since there was initially no covid circulating in the country.) However I started seeing people begin to complain when the vaccine rates topped 90% and there were still some restrictions, and the borders were still as closed as ever. That being said, there was still a sizable group in support of continued restrictions both on the population and on the border.
    - robocat 4y ago
      > with omicron, even NZ's strict border control couldn't keep it out. New Zealander here. NZ could have remained in isolation, but it didn't. The government basically decided we needed to open borders and that we would get Covid - borders were opened enough that it was inevitable it would get through. I can say that successfully eradicating covid in 2020 was awesome (but 20/20 hindsight that the costs were worth it because it worked). Even then, we still made some very poor decisions, like every country did in its own ways. Taiwan made amazingly good decisions I thought (they started their SARS response in Dec 2019, tracking and isolation). Disclaimer: just my opinion based on what I saw. I don't have any actual insider information on the government decisions.
boomboomsubban 4y ago
The takeaway I'm seeing is most expats seem happy with their lives, with only Kuwait having more people unhappy than happy. Somewhat surprising, but I guess most people wouldn't expatriate unless they assumed they'd be happy.
gumby 4y ago
Funny that we the US is in the middle. I’m surprised Germany ranks so low; I enjoyed it there.
- kyriakos 4y ago
  The whole list is a bit dodgy, doesn't match my experiences either.
eric4smith 4y ago
Black expat. Thailand going 4 years. Vietnam just under a year. Both places excellent to live. Finances go very far. Extremely easy to get along with people. Never experienced racism. Cops have been super friendly. Been a lot in Indonesia also… very very good for expats and extremely friendly people. Japan was the least friendly and I would probably never live there for a long stretch of time. Dating was easiest in Vietnam followed by Thailand. Hard in other places. Never really encountered the “farang” tax in Thailand. Really it mostly comes up when you go to official tourist sites. For normal everyday encounters like markets, stores, street stuff - it really does not exist. If you dress like a clueless farang who left their balls at the airport people will try to extract more from you. Overall based on my talk with Thai friends and foreigners, it seems I am treated a lot better than most white foreigners. Go figure.
- jamal-kumar 4y ago
  The general lack of pervasive, systemic racism in much of the rest of the world is like breathing fresh air
  - kyriakos 4y ago
    as opposed to where?
    - eric4smith 4y ago
      Correct. Racism is everywhere. It depends on what you do with it and if you spend your life being a victim. I’ve chosen to not even notice it my whole life and so I don’t feel disadvantaged oppressed in the slightest on any part of the globe.
- distantaidenn 4y ago
  > Japan was the least friendly and I would probably never live there for a long stretch of time. This. Whenever I hear a young Black person saying they want to move or visit Japan, I say one thing: "Don't. Go to Korea instead." Japan is just not a friendly place. Yes, people will be polite and kind -- but friendly...hmm...This is coming from a long time resident. I met more long term close friends in 1 year in Korea than 10 in Japan. I'm talking people that I consider family. Of all the countries I have visited, Korea has been the most warm, welcoming, and overall fun. When I hear my White friends discuss their experiences in Japan, it literally feels like they are describing a different country. I tell them sometimes: "We live in very different Japans." Haven't been to Vietnam, yet. But I have heard good things.
gerad 4y ago
Having lived and worked abroad in Australia, I’d say that it’s expensive but you also get your money’s worth. The country is pretty much all beautiful beaches. People are friendly, but in my experience they were distant. It took a long time to make friends with folks (who weren’t other expats). Maybe because the houses are smaller so folks don’t invite one another over, or because of the kinda pervasive (?) social club scene where people go instead of bars or restaurants, but I found it tough to engage with folks outside of work while I was there. It’s kinda a shame, since I’d love to go back there - if I could figure that bit out! Especially in contrast to Germany where I also lived and worked abroad and people were very open and inviting (and also friendly).
- robocat 4y ago
  > but in my experience [Australians] were distant New Zealander here - I'll state one opinion although it is controversial and maybe totally irrelevant to you personally. Plenty of Americans are socially unaware of the cultural differences between New Zealanders and Americans, because the differences are not so blatantly obvious like in many other countries. I've result is that NZers stereotype Americans, and there is some negative bigotry towards Americans in general. The default is a negative sentiment towards most Americans, so becoming friends is an uphill battle. We generally won't correct your social faux pas++: you need to have the skills to read social cues and fit in. Your mental bullying government isn't helping all you'ze either. The American tourists I saw in Mexico were some of the most obnoxious wankers I have ever seen (although exceeded by epically rude Russian tourists in Sri Lanka, and even they are exceeded by some other countries' citizens). I generally like the Americans I randomly met in the USA weirdly enough. Not sure what I could recommend. Perhaps some serious self deprecation would help (à la British humour). Maybe find one person who will give honest feedback when you screw it up. Some places are not as friendly as others. Go to Wellington if you are working in NZ - it is far more international and welcoming to people from different strokes. Great place! Anyways, could have been anything, not just our typical anti-American sentiment. We are generally still welcoming compared with many countries. What I said above is likely similar in Australia.
noobermin 4y ago
As someone who moved to Singapore this year, I'm amazed at people who say their personal finances are okay. I think it depends heavily on who pays you, namely if you're paid in your home currency or not. SG is hell of expensive for almost everything, even more so if you're paid in SGD. Moreover, that "people aren't friendly to expats" has got to be the most incorrect thing I see on this list. Who are these people running into? Once you get into a conversation with people, cats are generally cool and can talk a bit about themselves, just like in any country. They aren't as courteous as people were in the say the Midwest (where people are very very nice even to strangers) but I do not get at all that people are unkind. If anything, I find people are curious about you. If people are reacting to how some situations people are busy, that's just how it is. In certain situations like buying food at a hawker centre you just have to keep things moving along. If the worker isn't busy (likely they won't be) they can be more "friendly" I guess.
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octobus2021 4y ago
So Russia is No.17, just 3 places behind the US, and ahead of Canada, UK, Czech Republic, and a whole bunch of others? It's good I never believe any rankings because they're all BS.
TrueGeek 4y ago
Is it possible to see the full list with explanations and not just the summary of the top / bottom five? UK is listed as 37 and I’d love to know why.
- em-bee 4y ago
  the full report is here: https://www.internations.org/expat-insider/ https://www.internations.org/expat-insider/ the UK scores below median on Quality of Life (Travel & Transit, Environment & Climate, Leisure Options, Health & Well-Being, Safety & Security) and Ease of Settling In (Local Friendliness, Finding Friends, Culture & Welcome), as well as Salary & Job Security and Work & Leisure. it's especially low on Personal Finance (50) and Housing (42) compare that to germany: high on Quality of Life and Working Abroad (Career Prospects, Salary & Job Security, Work & Leisure, Work Culture & Satisfaction), median on Personal Finance, but extremely low on Ease of Settling In and on Expat Essentials (Digital Life, Admin Topics, Housing, Language) the low score on ease of settling in is pretty much why i left germany.
  - TrueGeek 4y ago
    Thank you so much, that’s extremely helpful. Can I ask where you’re from and if you returned there or went somewhere else after Germany? My wife and I are American but we’re in the UK now, just to see how we like it before committing to a permanent move. We’ve also looked at Germany but I’ve struggled with the language, and although she’s conversationally fluent, I feel like forming deep friendships would be difficult.
    - em-bee 4y ago
      one thing i would try is to find friends there before you settle: find groups/communities of interest and join them, travel to go to meetups and conferences. forming deep friendships is always a challenge. we had these discussions on HN before. my personal experience is that i went wherever i could find a job and i stayed there as long as the job would keep me unless i found another reason to stay. i am happy to share more details by email. (see my profile)
greatgib 4y ago
I'm surprised about the position of a country like Indonesia. It is ok, but it has a lot of drawbacks for a foreigner: religiously integrist country where you can easily have issues for normal things for westerners. Food and water sanitary conditions that are not very good and can get you sick easily. Like in India. Maybe if for them Indonesia is Bali, that is ok, but the rest of Indonesia would not be on my top even not in the worst also. Just average.
netfortius 4y ago

61 points by rzk 4y ago

So Mexico is highly ranked and Italy is near the bottom? Sure, Italy is drowning in red tape, but bureaucracy in Mexico is greased with corruption. And by nearly any quality of life measure I can think of, Italy is far, far ahead of Mexico. There is something very seriously wrong with this ranking system. It also depends on where you're applying for stuff in Italy. For example, I had to apply for a Permesso di Soggiorno (kind of the Italian green card) to stay longer than normal for a sabbatical. In Rome it was essentially impossible: unbelievable intentional roadblocks were put up at every stage, all the way down to the application station being in a pseudo-prison far outside of Rome with no bus service. Very clearly designed, at all cost, to prevent people from applying. I eventually gave up applying in Rome. BUT in Forli, in Northern Italy, application was a breeze, straightforward and fast, helpful service with a smile.

iso8859-1 4y ago
Maybe it is because a lot of US citizens go to Mexico to surf and drink but don't really settle, and hence don't need bureaucracy? There are many different kinds of expats.
ianai 4y ago
I don’t think I’d step foot in Italy with how their legal system works. Guilty until proven innocent.
- JustARandomGuy 4y ago
  Not knowing anything about Italy myself, can you expand or link to something describing the problems? Would like to learn more.
  - Cupertino95014 4y ago
    He's probably thinking of Amanda Knox [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanda_Knox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanda_Knox
    - ianai 4y ago
      Hers is a good example. But realistically it’s important to be aware of differences in fundamental things like legal systems just like cultural differences when traveling or discussions like this about places expats like or don’t. You can just go on YouTube and hear accounts of this type of stuff and culture shock is real. It’s possible to get serious culture shock going from one US state to another (or town/city) so of course different countries are going to be consequential.
- seanhunter 4y ago
  Not sure where you got that from, but that's not how Italian law works. 'The Italian criminal system is broadly an adversarial system and is governed by the presumption of innocence. The burden of proof falls on the Public Prosecutor, who must prove the guilt of an accused person. The standard of proof required is "beyond a reasonable doubt". Unless this standard is met the defendant must be acquitted. The court must consider and evaluate any doubt a reasonable person could have.'[1] [1] https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/w-007-7826?contextData=%28sc.Default%29&transitionType=Default#co_anchor_a389887 https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/w-007-7826?contex...
  - ianai 4y ago
    Quick google shows that to be not entirely accurate. It’s a complicated system in ways I wouldn’t want to go near. https://www.britannica.com/place/Italy/Justice https://www.britannica.com/place/Italy/Justice
    - mdp2021 4y ago
      It is still obscure - after having read the section in the Britannica - what you find "to be avoided".
    - SeanLuke 4y ago
      I see nothing in that link that suggests anything of the sort. The problem Amanda Knox faced -- and I presume this is really boiling down to her -- is that Italy doesn't have double jeopardy. So the prosecutor kept retrying her, and the court kept acquitting her. If you don't like that I suggest you also stay away from Japan, among many Asian countries. Though Japan has double jeopardy, sort of, police can and will arrest you, hold you for a significant amount of time, then release you prior to trial and re-arrest you again over and over again, just by adding new trivial charges. This is what happened to Carlos Ghosn (whether he deserved it is another question).
      - ianai 4y ago
        Please don’t presume to know me nor my personal thoughts. Thanks for really weirding me out.
onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
> And by nearly any quality of life measure I can think of, Italy is far, far ahead of Mexico. I agree with you that Italy is probably hands down a better choice - but if you want to live in a city - it is tough to beat the nicer neighborhoods in Mexico City for quality of life and affordability and being in the same time zone. If you want to live in the hills, or a small town, Italy is tough to beat.
- Jcampuzano2 4y ago
  Lived in Mexico for the better part of this year until recent. Wholeheartedly agree. Could still be in the same time zone (or close) as my job so no issues there, CDMX is extremely affordable by US standards, the city is beautiful (in the nicer neighborhoods) and the weather is great during the dry season. Plenty of co-working spaces or cafes to go to, and the city is very friendly to expats from my experience. Helps also knowing Spanish but I know plenty of friends who didn't know a word of it and enjoy their experience.
  - iso8859-1 4y ago
    How did you get to know people in CDMX?
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m463 4y ago
Honestly, it sounds like the DMV in california. The DMV locations in populated areas have long lines and wait times, but the ones in outlying areas are less crowded and even pleasant.
- khuey 4y ago
  Even in urban California the DMV is mostly fine if you have an appointment.
  - hansvm 4y ago
    They always made me wait in the same outdoor line as everyone else even with an appointment. I've never had an urban CA DMV trip takes less than 2h.
    - khuey 4y ago
      At the one in SF they have two (poorly marked) lines.
aaron695 4y ago

b20000 4y ago

i’m wondering how safe mexico really is once you want to spend some of your money, buy a nice house or car, etc. with thailand i’ve heard stories of “farang prices” where you pay 10x for medical care compared to locals. a friend of mine in laos had to travel to thailand every time he needed care.

ceejayoz 4y ago
> with thailand i’ve heard stories of “farang prices” where you pay 10x for medical care compared to locals. Which is still next to nothing, isn't it?
- jwilber 4y ago
  Depends on your definition of nothing. Cheaper than America, obviously (which country isn’t for medical care?). It’s pricier than Vietnam, where I spent $500 for 2 nights of hospital stay in a private wing for a super bad fever.
- b20000 4y ago
  I don't think that $100 for a tetanus injection is particularly cheap in Thailand.
coffee_beqn 4y ago
Many SEA countries are effectively third world. It’s no wonder they have to go to Thailand for western-ish level medical care. The locals will not have the option at all so it’s not really a fair comparison
distantaidenn 4y ago
Lived in Thailand for a bit. The "foreigner tax" (farang is usually reserved for White foreigners) is usually for untraceable cash payments (i.e. taxis, stalls, etc.) and government ran spaces (national parks, etc). In the case of the latter, usually foreigners pay 5X for entry -- this is government mandated. Now, as for the former, it's more for gullible tourist fresh off the boat. I was drunkenly making my way home one night, and hopped in a taxi. Guy told me something like 1,500 baht ($40 USD). I just laughed at the guy and said "meter", followed by him giving me a knowing look and a laugh as he turned on the meter. It was a 5 minute drive and ended up costing like 50 baht...If you know, then you know. Aside from the constant absurd and abusive racism handed out by Thai police in BKK, the country is an amazing place to live. Safe and friendly. And, I want to make it clear that I only received racist attacks (physical and verbal) from cops in BKK and nowhere else in the country -- but of course, everything became fine once they realized I was an American...

lioeters 4y ago

Summary: • Mexico, Indonesia, Taiwan, Portugal, Spain, the UAE, Vietnam, Thailand, Australia, and Singapore are the best destinations for expats in 2022. • The worst destinations for expats are Kuwait (52nd), New Zealand, Hong Kong, Cyprus, Luxembourg, Japan, South Africa, Turkey, Italy, and Malta (43rd).

onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
Why is Italy so low??
- ithkuil 4y ago
  And what's wrong with New Zealand?
  - EdwardDiego 4y ago
    We have lower salaries and higher living costs compared to other countries. That's fair and true. The bit about a "lack of culture and nightlife" is... interesting. What kinda culture were they looking for? The criticism that it's hard to get a job implies that the people answering it aren't coming in on skilled migrant visas, as those require an employer to a) sponsor you and b) document that they weren't able to fill your role in NZ, so you'd already have a job. So it makes me wonder if the people answering it had come over on student visas that became residency visas after completing their studies, in which case you're competing with all the other graduates (and we have had problems with private training establishments that were effectively set up to sell visas, so the "level 6 diploma in Business" you acquire from them has no value in the job market.
  - willcipriano 4y ago
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i3HokGUffcU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i3HokGUffcU
  - refurb 4y ago
    The very fact Kiwis flee to Australia for better pay and lower cost of living should tell you something.

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ipnon 4y ago

I just moved to Taiwan from the States. It feels risky given the political situation. It seemed like the Russo-Ukrainian war would be a perpetual stalemate, and then one day everything changed. Taiwan is a beautiful country, and the Taiwanese people don’t deserve to be threatened with invasion. I suppose by moving I am betting that the risk is less than 50%, but I don’t think it’s 0. The United States enjoy a geopolitical security that may not be appreciated until you leave.

flyinglizard 4y ago
You (probably) get better personal safety in Taiwan, and if China decides to have a go you’ll likely get enough of an advance notice and will have evacuation options courtesy of the US Navy. I wouldn’t worry.
- mwint 4y ago
  Honest question, what dynamics make you think China would give advance notice?
  - runnerup 4y ago
    They have to stage a ton of equipment and personnel near the coast before launching an invasion. USA will have a 2-3 month heads up if the only intelligence they have is satellite photos.
    - arroz 4y ago
      If that is how they go about it They could also just blow up all government buildings from afar
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      - NhanH 4y ago
        China isn’t looking to obliterate Taiwan off the earth. They wage a war to unite the country: they need a functioning Taiwan as much as possible after the war ends. To put it another way, they considers it to be a civil war, and will give plenty of warning in order to convince everyone else to stay out of the way.

natoliniak 4y ago

what is an "expat"? an immigrant? migrant? a special kind of immigrant? hm...

darth_avocado 4y ago
You’re an expat if you’re white, otherwise you’re an immigrant.
- refurb 4y ago
  The internet loves to make everything about race, but no. Expat = temporary Immigrant = permanent
  - decebalus1 4y ago
    Not really. For example UAE is on the list as a top destination for expats. However, laborers from poor countries would probably have a different view on things in terms of career advancement or cultural integration. They're not permanent. I mean if your 'owner' holds your passport hostage you're more permanent than temporary. They're not really 'expats' in the context of the 'study'.
    - refurb 4y ago
      Are you arguing foreign workers in UAE are "immigrants"? They aren't. And sure, lower income foreign workers might have it worse than rich foreign workers, but they still come for the benefits.
      - eesmith 4y ago
        The argument is that by your definition temporary foreign workers in the UAE are expats, since they are not immigrants. This report, however, does not appear to include them in their survey, suggesting a mismatch between your definition, and that used by an organization which claims to be "the largest global expat network" with "4.5 million members." Indeed, you'll be hard pressed to find poor temporary workers from less developed described as "expats". For example, I've noticed few people refer to the ~200K low-skilled temporary Mexican laborers in the US under the H-2A visa as "expats", even though they fit your definition. I've further noticed that "illegal immigrant" is used even for people who intend only temporary residence in the destination country.

decebalus1 4y ago

UAE? Really? Is this some sort of satire? Because I'm honestly laughing.

thematrixturtle 4y ago
The UAE gets a lot of expats because a firehose of money plus a low cost of living (taxes, cars, maids, eating out etc) compared to most anywhere in the Western world makes up for a lot of other issues.
- decebalus1 4y ago
  Did they also ask the laborers from India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, etc.. how it's going in Dubai? Or they're not expats enough? More like.. migrant workers.

gernb 4y ago

I get why Japan is near the bottom for some people but, as someone that's lived there for a while > 10yrs, I found the paragraph describing the problems kind of ridiculous > Expats find it hard to pay without cash (20% vs. 8% globally) So what? It's safe to carry cash in Japan and you can get cash at every 7/11 of which there is almost always one within 4 minutes walking distance > and are unhappy with the availability of government services online (35% vs. 21% globally). I have pretty much never needed government services in my life. That would be slightly inconvenient for the once every 2 or 3 years I'd have to interact with the government seems like an extremely trivial point and nothing to do with actual quality of life > The country also lands in the bottom 10 for both the Ease of Settling In (45th) True for many > — 30% find it hard to get used to the local culture (vs. 19% globally) Yea, you need to speak Japanese. You can get by but it's not like moving to Scandinavia or Western Europe where many countries you can trivially get by without speaking the local language. You can add Singapore and maybe Malaysia to that list but Taiwan being near the top? I'd expect the same there. Either you learn Mandarin or life is going to be lonely and you'll be left out of most stuff. > Moreover, 25% feel they are not fairly paid for their work (vs. 20% globally). This is very true. Engineers for example probably have a cap of $80k year unless you work for a western company.

kstenerud 4y ago
The biggest problem with Japan is that as a gaijin (gomen, gaiKOKUjin) you'll never really be accepted there, any more than a Turk would be accepted in Germany. That and the economic bomb that everyone keeps kicking down the road...
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chasil 4y ago
After Carlos Ghosn, the criminal justice system is a deal-breaker.
skinpop 4y ago

doctoboggan 4y ago

My wife and I just moved back to the US after living in NZ for 1.5 years. Sure, the cost of living is higher and yes the pay is lower. We went in knowing both of those things. NZ is a great country for people who love nature and the outdoors. The citizenry seem to have a higher level of respect for nature and how to protect it. There is also socialized medicine and the ACC covering all accidents on NZ soil is great, so comparing costs directly isn't the same. However not everything is great, it does feel a little isolating being on the other side of the world on a tiny island and their covid controls did start to feel a little draconian. (Even after we got more than 90% of the eligible population vaxed we were still in a strict lockdown with almost no-one allowed through the borders). Overall I was sad to leave, but our families are both in the US and ultimately it was time to come home.

mwint 4y ago
What’s your read on the average New Zealander’s opinion of ongoing lockdowns? Are they generally in favor, or is the gov’t out of touch?
- doctoboggan 4y ago
  At first, the average kiwi's opinion was definitely in favor. The lockdowns initially worked to entirely stamp out covid and allowed NZ to return to relatively normal operations while the rest of the world was still in lockdown. But with omicron, even NZ's strict border control couldn't keep it out. Even still most people seemed to favor the lockdowns to slow the spread while we were vaccinating (NZ was near the bottom of the list in receiving vaccines since there was initially no covid circulating in the country.) However I started seeing people begin to complain when the vaccine rates topped 90% and there were still some restrictions, and the borders were still as closed as ever. That being said, there was still a sizable group in support of continued restrictions both on the population and on the border.
  - robocat 4y ago
    > with omicron, even NZ's strict border control couldn't keep it out. New Zealander here. NZ could have remained in isolation, but it didn't. The government basically decided we needed to open borders and that we would get Covid - borders were opened enough that it was inevitable it would get through. I can say that successfully eradicating covid in 2020 was awesome (but 20/20 hindsight that the costs were worth it because it worked). Even then, we still made some very poor decisions, like every country did in its own ways. Taiwan made amazingly good decisions I thought (they started their SARS response in Dec 2019, tracking and isolation). Disclaimer: just my opinion based on what I saw. I don't have any actual insider information on the government decisions.

boomboomsubban 4y ago

The takeaway I'm seeing is most expats seem happy with their lives, with only Kuwait having more people unhappy than happy. Somewhat surprising, but I guess most people wouldn't expatriate unless they assumed they'd be happy.

gumby 4y ago

Funny that we the US is in the middle. I’m surprised Germany ranks so low; I enjoyed it there.

kyriakos 4y ago
The whole list is a bit dodgy, doesn't match my experiences either.

eric4smith 4y ago

Black expat. Thailand going 4 years. Vietnam just under a year. Both places excellent to live. Finances go very far. Extremely easy to get along with people. Never experienced racism. Cops have been super friendly. Been a lot in Indonesia also… very very good for expats and extremely friendly people. Japan was the least friendly and I would probably never live there for a long stretch of time. Dating was easiest in Vietnam followed by Thailand. Hard in other places. Never really encountered the “farang” tax in Thailand. Really it mostly comes up when you go to official tourist sites. For normal everyday encounters like markets, stores, street stuff - it really does not exist. If you dress like a clueless farang who left their balls at the airport people will try to extract more from you. Overall based on my talk with Thai friends and foreigners, it seems I am treated a lot better than most white foreigners. Go figure.

jamal-kumar 4y ago
The general lack of pervasive, systemic racism in much of the rest of the world is like breathing fresh air
- kyriakos 4y ago
  as opposed to where?
  - eric4smith 4y ago
    Correct. Racism is everywhere. It depends on what you do with it and if you spend your life being a victim. I’ve chosen to not even notice it my whole life and so I don’t feel disadvantaged oppressed in the slightest on any part of the globe.
distantaidenn 4y ago
> Japan was the least friendly and I would probably never live there for a long stretch of time. This. Whenever I hear a young Black person saying they want to move or visit Japan, I say one thing: "Don't. Go to Korea instead." Japan is just not a friendly place. Yes, people will be polite and kind -- but friendly...hmm...This is coming from a long time resident. I met more long term close friends in 1 year in Korea than 10 in Japan. I'm talking people that I consider family. Of all the countries I have visited, Korea has been the most warm, welcoming, and overall fun. When I hear my White friends discuss their experiences in Japan, it literally feels like they are describing a different country. I tell them sometimes: "We live in very different Japans." Haven't been to Vietnam, yet. But I have heard good things.

gerad 4y ago

Having lived and worked abroad in Australia, I’d say that it’s expensive but you also get your money’s worth. The country is pretty much all beautiful beaches. People are friendly, but in my experience they were distant. It took a long time to make friends with folks (who weren’t other expats). Maybe because the houses are smaller so folks don’t invite one another over, or because of the kinda pervasive (?) social club scene where people go instead of bars or restaurants, but I found it tough to engage with folks outside of work while I was there. It’s kinda a shame, since I’d love to go back there - if I could figure that bit out! Especially in contrast to Germany where I also lived and worked abroad and people were very open and inviting (and also friendly).

robocat 4y ago
> but in my experience [Australians] were distant New Zealander here - I'll state one opinion although it is controversial and maybe totally irrelevant to you personally. Plenty of Americans are socially unaware of the cultural differences between New Zealanders and Americans, because the differences are not so blatantly obvious like in many other countries. I've result is that NZers stereotype Americans, and there is some negative bigotry towards Americans in general. The default is a negative sentiment towards most Americans, so becoming friends is an uphill battle. We generally won't correct your social faux pas++: you need to have the skills to read social cues and fit in. Your mental bullying government isn't helping all you'ze either. The American tourists I saw in Mexico were some of the most obnoxious wankers I have ever seen (although exceeded by epically rude Russian tourists in Sri Lanka, and even they are exceeded by some other countries' citizens). I generally like the Americans I randomly met in the USA weirdly enough. Not sure what I could recommend. Perhaps some serious self deprecation would help (à la British humour). Maybe find one person who will give honest feedback when you screw it up. Some places are not as friendly as others. Go to Wellington if you are working in NZ - it is far more international and welcoming to people from different strokes. Great place! Anyways, could have been anything, not just our typical anti-American sentiment. We are generally still welcoming compared with many countries. What I said above is likely similar in Australia.

noobermin 4y ago

As someone who moved to Singapore this year, I'm amazed at people who say their personal finances are okay. I think it depends heavily on who pays you, namely if you're paid in your home currency or not. SG is hell of expensive for almost everything, even more so if you're paid in SGD. Moreover, that "people aren't friendly to expats" has got to be the most incorrect thing I see on this list. Who are these people running into? Once you get into a conversation with people, cats are generally cool and can talk a bit about themselves, just like in any country. They aren't as courteous as people were in the say the Midwest (where people are very very nice even to strangers) but I do not get at all that people are unkind. If anything, I find people are curious about you. If people are reacting to how some situations people are busy, that's just how it is. In certain situations like buying food at a hawker centre you just have to keep things moving along. If the worker isn't busy (likely they won't be) they can be more "friendly" I guess.

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octobus2021 4y ago

So Russia is No.17, just 3 places behind the US, and ahead of Canada, UK, Czech Republic, and a whole bunch of others? It's good I never believe any rankings because they're all BS.

TrueGeek 4y ago

Is it possible to see the full list with explanations and not just the summary of the top / bottom five? UK is listed as 37 and I’d love to know why.

em-bee 4y ago
the full report is here: https://www.internations.org/expat-insider/ https://www.internations.org/expat-insider/ the UK scores below median on Quality of Life (Travel & Transit, Environment & Climate, Leisure Options, Health & Well-Being, Safety & Security) and Ease of Settling In (Local Friendliness, Finding Friends, Culture & Welcome), as well as Salary & Job Security and Work & Leisure. it's especially low on Personal Finance (50) and Housing (42) compare that to germany: high on Quality of Life and Working Abroad (Career Prospects, Salary & Job Security, Work & Leisure, Work Culture & Satisfaction), median on Personal Finance, but extremely low on Ease of Settling In and on Expat Essentials (Digital Life, Admin Topics, Housing, Language) the low score on ease of settling in is pretty much why i left germany.
- TrueGeek 4y ago
  Thank you so much, that’s extremely helpful. Can I ask where you’re from and if you returned there or went somewhere else after Germany? My wife and I are American but we’re in the UK now, just to see how we like it before committing to a permanent move. We’ve also looked at Germany but I’ve struggled with the language, and although she’s conversationally fluent, I feel like forming deep friendships would be difficult.
  - em-bee 4y ago
    one thing i would try is to find friends there before you settle: find groups/communities of interest and join them, travel to go to meetups and conferences. forming deep friendships is always a challenge. we had these discussions on HN before. my personal experience is that i went wherever i could find a job and i stayed there as long as the job would keep me unless i found another reason to stay. i am happy to share more details by email. (see my profile)

greatgib 4y ago

I'm surprised about the position of a country like Indonesia. It is ok, but it has a lot of drawbacks for a foreigner: religiously integrist country where you can easily have issues for normal things for westerners. Food and water sanitary conditions that are not very good and can get you sick easily. Like in India. Maybe if for them Indonesia is Bali, that is ok, but the rest of Indonesia would not be on my top even not in the worst also. Just average.

netfortius 4y ago