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As a Linux laptop user, I used Thinkpads for years. The pinnacle was the T460s/T490s models from around 2016, because they: - Ran Linux without much tinkering

As a Linux laptop user, I used Thinkpads for years. The pinnacle was the T460s/T490s models from around 2016, because they: - Ran Linux without much tinkering or major compromises - small (14") - affordable (around $1300 for my config) - lightweight and thin - powerful (I had a Core i5) - upgrade-able (I had 48gb of RAM) They started going downhill after that, primarily in that I could no longer find a Thinkpad model that was at the intersection of upgrade-able and Linux compatibility. Around 2021 I started looking for an alternative. Looked at made-for-Linux laptops like System76 and the various Linux-certified Dells. Couldn't find anything that checked all my boxes and the Dells were particularly crippled: 8GB of soldered on RAM? Only certified to work if you use their custom hacked Ubuntu image? No thanks. The Framework (gen11, DIY edition) was exactly what I was looking for. My configuration at the time was $1032 and I've been running Manjaro Linux on it continuously for the past year on it with zero problems. It's just good solid generic hardware at a fair price. It's cheap enough that I don't worry about it getting lost or stolen. It's repairable so I don't worry about something physically breaking. I have since bought another one for an employee and over the next few years I plan on deploying them to my whole team. Basically I should be a testimonial on their website.

nrp 4y ago
Great to hear that! Manjaro support continues to be solid, and we just sent both 11th Gen and 12th Gen-based Framework Laptops to the team there.
k__ 4y ago
Interesting. I had a T42 in 2008 and read Thinkpads already went downhill back then.
- opan 4y ago
  They certainly have continued to take away nice features, stability, and build quality over the years. The "last good ThinkPad" is different for many. As you said the T42 or around there for pre-Lenovo, T400 for libreboot support, T420 for old keyboard, T430 for old charger/body design, T440p for last gen with socketed CPU and for coreboot support, T480 for last gen with a removable battery I think... But at the same time they've removed indicator lights, certain ports, I'm not even sure if there's a magnesium rollcage anymore. I have a P15s for work and my initial model would hard freeze when putting pressure in certain spots. I used an external keyboard/mouse mostly, but it'd still happen occasionally. Eventually got a tech sent out and he swapped the motherboard. I think it's fixed, but I still touch it as little as possible and use external peripherals. Some people defend modern ThinkPads saying they still beat the competition. I'd like to think the bar is higher than that considering some of what's out there. My take on all this is that x86 is on its way out anyway, so I'm trying to make my T440p last and will try to go with ARM or RISC-V for my next machine. Likely just an M2 Max MacBook Pro when available. Hopefully Asahi support is pretty good by then. The Framework is sort of cool, but it's just another modern Intel machine at the same time. Guts aside, they're doing a good job, but the guts are pretty important, and in this case, boring. The MNT Reform is a lot more interesting, although I don't know if any particularly performant SoMs are available for it yet. I'd like something with better performance than my Pinebook Pro if possible. The RK3399 is not quite Main Machine material.
- babypuncher 4y ago
  I never really liked Thinkpads to begin with. The texture on their plastics makes my skin crawl. When I was working IT at the end of the '00s, I found Latitudes were a lot easier to repair and more durable.
- antisthenes 4y ago
  My personal story is that I'll never use Lenovo, because of their crap website and customer service. I tried ordering one of their laptops back around 2015 on their website. The cart just straight up broke during checkout. Tried contacting support - no response. 2 weeks later they emailed me asking how my purchasing experience was (hilarious that they couldn't tell the purchase actually didn't go through, because the card wasn't charged) Was literally throwing money at them trying to buy their product, but I guess they didn't want it. So I'm never giving them a cent of it again.
intothemild 4y ago
That's interesting. The X1 Carbon range are almost perfectly compatible with Linux. (I have had multiple over the years and have had zero issues) The other models I can't say much about. But the yogas are not Linux compatible
- suetoniusp91 4y ago
  The carbons are not upgradable and almost unrepairable. Just another landfill laptop
  - oldandboring 4y ago
    This was also my experience. Could never pull the trigger on the Carbon for this reason.
- Seb-C 4y ago
  I bough a high-end X1 carbon because I wanted to keep it for a long time and I trusted Lenovo. While I loved it and was very satisfied, it turns out that the main board suddenly died after 2 years, and it was not repairable. They do not provide any post-warranty support (even paid) and do not sell spare parts. Now I'm back to a desktop PC that I built myself and can repair or upgrade however I want.
samtheprogram 4y ago
> $1032 > It's cheap enough that I don't worry about it getting lost or stolen. Not sure if this is impressive or reckless, but either way it doesn’t apply to most people.
- dannyw 4y ago
  I mean if you're making 150k a year as a SWE, losing your laptop isn't a big deal.
  - oldandboring 4y ago
  - secludedrelish 4y ago
    As long as you have backups
    - asadlionpk 4y ago
      Having anything local is reckless at this point imo. There are so many mainstream backup options at different price ranges/free!
    - usefulcat 4y ago
      Even if you knew that it would never get stolen the SSD could still die unexpectedly. Or any number of other problems.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    And the worldwide percentage of laptop users and devs that make 150k is how much?
  - nly 4y ago
    Spending 1% of your net annual salary on a laptop still strikes me as a large purchase.
    - 4y ago
sammorrowdrums 4y ago
The Dell XPS Developer Edition ones have always worked well for me with Linux, I never used the stock Ubuntu, and the hardware works really well and they actually do deliver firmware updates through fwupd for many years - I won’t defend the landfill future of the hardware and lack of user upgrade/ replacement, but I’ve had great success with Elementary OS and Arch on them. Also I have had to use a Mac more recently for work, and I miss my XPS running well with Docker, and I find it hilarious that with MacBooks you need the new M processor models to be able to run Docker workloads without the fans blasting! I’d love to try a Framework too though.
- oldandboring 4y ago
  These are fair points. It's probably more accurate to say that I didn't give the Dells a completely fair shake on their "works with Linux" cred because I couldn't get past the lack of user upgrade and/or the cost to actually buy one. At one point I did buy a Precision 7000 series that wasn't certified for Linux, hoping I'd be able to get it running anyway, and it was a nightmare that ended in a return/refund: the whole machine would literally lock up hard upon waking from s2 sleep. It was upon researching the problem that I discovered the nature of Dell's "we won't actually support Linux on any laptop unless it's a specific model and you're running our specific build of Ubuntu, beyond that you're on your own, YMMV" and gave up. Framework still says "you're on your own" but they're also working furiously behind the scenes to make Linux as close to first-class-citizen as possible. Framework knows their customer.
- dxxvi 4y ago
  I used Arch on XPS 15" 4k a while ago. At that time I had to disable something in the BIOS so that the hard disk could be recognized.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- tomrod 4y ago
  I use a mac and a thinkpad for two clients. Great machines. I had an XPS for 1.5 years, with terrible chassis issues that got worse and worse until typing would cause it to freeze. I use a Framework for my daily driver and I couldn't be happier! I do have the occasional issue with a WD-SN850 that causes freezing, but that isn't due to Framework specifically.
okennedy 4y ago
I completely agree in nearly every respect. Especially notable is the fact that they sell replacement hinges. Considering that every one of my preceding non-Apple laptops has failed at the hinge, this is huge. Support for suspend in linux is definitely shaky, but a (eventually fixable) firmware issue. On the other hand, I am concerned with the company's commitment to upgradability. Since they announced the 2nd generation motherboard some months back, the only way to get one has been with a brand new laptop around it.
- oldandboring 4y ago
  Yeah I mean, even on the Framework I basically gave up on suspend. It wasn't freezing on the Framework like it was on the Dell, but there were definitely instances of things not working correctly upon wake, or with the machine never going to sleep, or with the machine waking itself, or with the battery draining too fast even in s2/deep. Switched to hibernate and I've been very happy.
  - gonehome 4y ago
    It’s interesting this is still a problem going on twenty years. I guess there’s some reason it’ll never actually work a linux laptop.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
      > I guess there’s some reason it’ll never actually work a linux laptop. Except it clearly can; every thinkpad I've owned handled S3 flawlessly in Linux, and Chromebooks manage fine.
      - POPOSYS 4y ago
        I have a Thinkpad X1 3rd Gen that does not handle that flawlessly. I do not want to discuss that, I just want to show the value of anecdotal evidence postings: zero.
        4y ago
Melatonic 4y ago
You are making me think I might have to finally upgrade my T420
- GoldenRacer 4y ago
  I like that someone else is still using a T420. I'm using the one I bought for college back in 2011. I've been running fedora on it since fedora 17 I believe. I preordered a framework a couple months ago though and it's suppose to ship in August. It'll be a sad day when I shut down my thinkpad for the last time.
tuetuopay 4y ago
I have a T14s Gen 1 for work, and it runs flawlessly Linux without major tinkering using Arch. Everything from sleep, display output, fingerprint reader, wifi, bluetooth, trackpad works out of the box and pretty darn well. And I'm rocking a Dell XPS 9570 for personal use, still on arch, no real issue there neither. Well except the Nvidia gpu using prime that needed a truckload of work to get to work, but that's not Dell's fault. So yeah, in my experience, a quick google search for systemic problems (bios related) of the laptop, its wifi chip support, etc, is enough to tell whether a laptop is fit for linux.
- ryantgtg 4y ago
  I really wanted to get a framework as this new one was announced. But… the glossy screen was a no-go (also the lack of dedicated home/end keys). I went with an x1 carbon gen 9 instead (replacing my thinkpad t440s). Flawless so far with Linux. I’m sure it will last me 5+ years. Stinks that such little (yet significant) things kept me from the framework!
  - toastal 4y ago
    Tangentially, the non-100% DCI-P3 gamut (or better) display made it a no-go for me. Color gamut and accuracy is a must for any visual or visual-adjacent work.
    - ryantgtg 4y ago
      I do visual work, as well. And I think by the end I just got a little worn out by the overall "which laptop is right for me" research process and said, "well, I'm sure the monitor on this laptop will be much better than my T440s click"
- xdfgh1112 4y ago
  Me too. The T14s is probably the closest to "classic ThinkPad" that they currently sell. Can't consider anything else because I'm addicted to the TrackPoint.
vladvasiliu 4y ago
Other people with these requirements may want to look at HP Pro and EliteBooks, if they're willing to put up with dubious screens (they're fairly OK for coding work, I guess). They're repairable in that HP has repair manuals on their public site, complete with disassembly instructions and part numbers. Never had to replace anything, so I don't know how easy it would be to actually source the parts. Most importantly, they are also one of the few to have AMD models without any soldered RAM, and they don't insist on HP branded RAM either. Linux works great on these. The worst I had was an older ProBook whose fingerprint sensor was unsupported. On my current one, it works 100% under Linux, while on Windows I can't get the webcam to work.
- schmorptron 4y ago
  I just bought a current ProBook (445 G8) and the fingerprint sensor also seems to be unsupported. Great laptop otherwise though so far! I'll probably get rid of it in favor of a framework once they sort out their battery troubles either by getting ryzens or intel stepping up their efficiency game though.
einpoklum 4y ago
> - lightweight and thin Thin is a _problem_! Thin means: 1. The design of everything needs to be warped to fit in - less opportunities for modularization and more contortion needed for disassembly. 2. Bad keyboard with almost no key travel > They started going downhill after that I would say the X220 era is where things started going downhill. Although some might argue that it was even earlier.
felixg3 4y ago
Unless you buy an AMD Ryzen ThinkPad. Their Linux support stinks and the bug list of 2020 machines still hasn’t been fixed.

nrp 4y ago

Great to hear that! Manjaro support continues to be solid, and we just sent both 11th Gen and 12th Gen-based Framework Laptops to the team there.

k__ 4y ago

Interesting. I had a T42 in 2008 and read Thinkpads already went downhill back then.

opan 4y ago
They certainly have continued to take away nice features, stability, and build quality over the years. The "last good ThinkPad" is different for many. As you said the T42 or around there for pre-Lenovo, T400 for libreboot support, T420 for old keyboard, T430 for old charger/body design, T440p for last gen with socketed CPU and for coreboot support, T480 for last gen with a removable battery I think... But at the same time they've removed indicator lights, certain ports, I'm not even sure if there's a magnesium rollcage anymore. I have a P15s for work and my initial model would hard freeze when putting pressure in certain spots. I used an external keyboard/mouse mostly, but it'd still happen occasionally. Eventually got a tech sent out and he swapped the motherboard. I think it's fixed, but I still touch it as little as possible and use external peripherals. Some people defend modern ThinkPads saying they still beat the competition. I'd like to think the bar is higher than that considering some of what's out there. My take on all this is that x86 is on its way out anyway, so I'm trying to make my T440p last and will try to go with ARM or RISC-V for my next machine. Likely just an M2 Max MacBook Pro when available. Hopefully Asahi support is pretty good by then. The Framework is sort of cool, but it's just another modern Intel machine at the same time. Guts aside, they're doing a good job, but the guts are pretty important, and in this case, boring. The MNT Reform is a lot more interesting, although I don't know if any particularly performant SoMs are available for it yet. I'd like something with better performance than my Pinebook Pro if possible. The RK3399 is not quite Main Machine material.
babypuncher 4y ago
I never really liked Thinkpads to begin with. The texture on their plastics makes my skin crawl. When I was working IT at the end of the '00s, I found Latitudes were a lot easier to repair and more durable.
antisthenes 4y ago
My personal story is that I'll never use Lenovo, because of their crap website and customer service. I tried ordering one of their laptops back around 2015 on their website. The cart just straight up broke during checkout. Tried contacting support - no response. 2 weeks later they emailed me asking how my purchasing experience was (hilarious that they couldn't tell the purchase actually didn't go through, because the card wasn't charged) Was literally throwing money at them trying to buy their product, but I guess they didn't want it. So I'm never giving them a cent of it again.

intothemild 4y ago

That's interesting. The X1 Carbon range are almost perfectly compatible with Linux. (I have had multiple over the years and have had zero issues) The other models I can't say much about. But the yogas are not Linux compatible

suetoniusp91 4y ago
The carbons are not upgradable and almost unrepairable. Just another landfill laptop
- oldandboring 4y ago
  This was also my experience. Could never pull the trigger on the Carbon for this reason.
Seb-C 4y ago
I bough a high-end X1 carbon because I wanted to keep it for a long time and I trusted Lenovo. While I loved it and was very satisfied, it turns out that the main board suddenly died after 2 years, and it was not repairable. They do not provide any post-warranty support (even paid) and do not sell spare parts. Now I'm back to a desktop PC that I built myself and can repair or upgrade however I want.

samtheprogram 4y ago

> $1032 > It's cheap enough that I don't worry about it getting lost or stolen. Not sure if this is impressive or reckless, but either way it doesn’t apply to most people.

dannyw 4y ago
I mean if you're making 150k a year as a SWE, losing your laptop isn't a big deal.
- oldandboring 4y ago
- secludedrelish 4y ago
  As long as you have backups
  - asadlionpk 4y ago
    Having anything local is reckless at this point imo. There are so many mainstream backup options at different price ranges/free!
  - usefulcat 4y ago
    Even if you knew that it would never get stolen the SSD could still die unexpectedly. Or any number of other problems.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  And the worldwide percentage of laptop users and devs that make 150k is how much?
- nly 4y ago
  Spending 1% of your net annual salary on a laptop still strikes me as a large purchase.
  - 4y ago

sammorrowdrums 4y ago

The Dell XPS Developer Edition ones have always worked well for me with Linux, I never used the stock Ubuntu, and the hardware works really well and they actually do deliver firmware updates through fwupd for many years - I won’t defend the landfill future of the hardware and lack of user upgrade/ replacement, but I’ve had great success with Elementary OS and Arch on them. Also I have had to use a Mac more recently for work, and I miss my XPS running well with Docker, and I find it hilarious that with MacBooks you need the new M processor models to be able to run Docker workloads without the fans blasting! I’d love to try a Framework too though.

oldandboring 4y ago
These are fair points. It's probably more accurate to say that I didn't give the Dells a completely fair shake on their "works with Linux" cred because I couldn't get past the lack of user upgrade and/or the cost to actually buy one. At one point I did buy a Precision 7000 series that wasn't certified for Linux, hoping I'd be able to get it running anyway, and it was a nightmare that ended in a return/refund: the whole machine would literally lock up hard upon waking from s2 sleep. It was upon researching the problem that I discovered the nature of Dell's "we won't actually support Linux on any laptop unless it's a specific model and you're running our specific build of Ubuntu, beyond that you're on your own, YMMV" and gave up. Framework still says "you're on your own" but they're also working furiously behind the scenes to make Linux as close to first-class-citizen as possible. Framework knows their customer.
dxxvi 4y ago
I used Arch on XPS 15" 4k a while ago. At that time I had to disable something in the BIOS so that the hard disk could be recognized.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
tomrod 4y ago
I use a mac and a thinkpad for two clients. Great machines. I had an XPS for 1.5 years, with terrible chassis issues that got worse and worse until typing would cause it to freeze. I use a Framework for my daily driver and I couldn't be happier! I do have the occasional issue with a WD-SN850 that causes freezing, but that isn't due to Framework specifically.

okennedy 4y ago

I completely agree in nearly every respect. Especially notable is the fact that they sell replacement hinges. Considering that every one of my preceding non-Apple laptops has failed at the hinge, this is huge. Support for suspend in linux is definitely shaky, but a (eventually fixable) firmware issue. On the other hand, I am concerned with the company's commitment to upgradability. Since they announced the 2nd generation motherboard some months back, the only way to get one has been with a brand new laptop around it.

oldandboring 4y ago
Yeah I mean, even on the Framework I basically gave up on suspend. It wasn't freezing on the Framework like it was on the Dell, but there were definitely instances of things not working correctly upon wake, or with the machine never going to sleep, or with the machine waking itself, or with the battery draining too fast even in s2/deep. Switched to hibernate and I've been very happy.
- gonehome 4y ago
  It’s interesting this is still a problem going on twenty years. I guess there’s some reason it’ll never actually work a linux laptop.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
    > I guess there’s some reason it’ll never actually work a linux laptop. Except it clearly can; every thinkpad I've owned handled S3 flawlessly in Linux, and Chromebooks manage fine.
    - POPOSYS 4y ago
      I have a Thinkpad X1 3rd Gen that does not handle that flawlessly. I do not want to discuss that, I just want to show the value of anecdotal evidence postings: zero.
      - 4y ago

Melatonic 4y ago

You are making me think I might have to finally upgrade my T420

GoldenRacer 4y ago
I like that someone else is still using a T420. I'm using the one I bought for college back in 2011. I've been running fedora on it since fedora 17 I believe. I preordered a framework a couple months ago though and it's suppose to ship in August. It'll be a sad day when I shut down my thinkpad for the last time.

tuetuopay 4y ago

I have a T14s Gen 1 for work, and it runs flawlessly Linux without major tinkering using Arch. Everything from sleep, display output, fingerprint reader, wifi, bluetooth, trackpad works out of the box and pretty darn well. And I'm rocking a Dell XPS 9570 for personal use, still on arch, no real issue there neither. Well except the Nvidia gpu using prime that needed a truckload of work to get to work, but that's not Dell's fault. So yeah, in my experience, a quick google search for systemic problems (bios related) of the laptop, its wifi chip support, etc, is enough to tell whether a laptop is fit for linux.

ryantgtg 4y ago
I really wanted to get a framework as this new one was announced. But… the glossy screen was a no-go (also the lack of dedicated home/end keys). I went with an x1 carbon gen 9 instead (replacing my thinkpad t440s). Flawless so far with Linux. I’m sure it will last me 5+ years. Stinks that such little (yet significant) things kept me from the framework!
- toastal 4y ago
  Tangentially, the non-100% DCI-P3 gamut (or better) display made it a no-go for me. Color gamut and accuracy is a must for any visual or visual-adjacent work.
  - ryantgtg 4y ago
    I do visual work, as well. And I think by the end I just got a little worn out by the overall "which laptop is right for me" research process and said, "well, I'm sure the monitor on this laptop will be much better than my T440s click"
xdfgh1112 4y ago
Me too. The T14s is probably the closest to "classic ThinkPad" that they currently sell. Can't consider anything else because I'm addicted to the TrackPoint.

vladvasiliu 4y ago

Other people with these requirements may want to look at HP Pro and EliteBooks, if they're willing to put up with dubious screens (they're fairly OK for coding work, I guess). They're repairable in that HP has repair manuals on their public site, complete with disassembly instructions and part numbers. Never had to replace anything, so I don't know how easy it would be to actually source the parts. Most importantly, they are also one of the few to have AMD models without any soldered RAM, and they don't insist on HP branded RAM either. Linux works great on these. The worst I had was an older ProBook whose fingerprint sensor was unsupported. On my current one, it works 100% under Linux, while on Windows I can't get the webcam to work.

schmorptron 4y ago
I just bought a current ProBook (445 G8) and the fingerprint sensor also seems to be unsupported. Great laptop otherwise though so far! I'll probably get rid of it in favor of a framework once they sort out their battery troubles either by getting ryzens or intel stepping up their efficiency game though.

einpoklum 4y ago

> - lightweight and thin Thin is a _problem_! Thin means: 1. The design of everything needs to be warped to fit in - less opportunities for modularization and more contortion needed for disassembly. 2. Bad keyboard with almost no key travel > They started going downhill after that I would say the X220 era is where things started going downhill. Although some might argue that it was even earlier.

felixg3 4y ago

Unless you buy an AMD Ryzen ThinkPad. Their Linux support stinks and the bug list of 2020 machines still hasn’t been fixed.