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QA workers at Blizzard Albany are unionizing

172 points by mellosouls 4y ago

fru2013 4y ago
https://www.gamedeveloper.com/culture/qa-workers-at-blizzard-albany-are-unionizing https://www.gamedeveloper.com/culture/qa-workers-at-blizzard...
blobbers 4y ago
Is hackernews on the side of QA people? What’s the general feeling? I can’t see their working conditions being genuinely terrible or unsafe, or the pay being that unfair. Perhaps they’re being driven too hard?
- ThemalSpan 4y ago
  I don't think looking at hacker news as a hive mind is a good idea tbh. I'm on the side of those unionizing. Work conditions don't need to be unsafe for folks to unionize, and I'm fairly confident in saying that the vast majority of folks everywhere (in tech anyway) are paid an unfairly low amount for the value they generate.
  - zapataband1 4y ago
    I remember McDonalds workers striking and a post about how their CEO makes ~1300x their salary. I looked up our dual CEO salary and together they were making like ~2000x our salaries.
  - nightski 4y ago
    Except value you generate is not a good metric for salary. If I have an employee that generates 100M a year, but I have boundless applicants that can perform that same task then the unfortunate reality is that person is not that valuable.
    - nkjnlknlk 4y ago
      Then you are free to replace them with these boundless applicants. Weirdly, every tech company claims there is a shortage of talented employees.
      - bonestamp2 4y ago
        ... and it doesn't matter how easy the job is, you need people to do those jobs. In this labor market, it's hard to find people of all skill levels. I'm not suggesting QA is easy or doesn't require a lot of skill either -- it's very hard to find a really talented QA person.
        munk-a 4y ago
        People outside the industry really undervalue talented QA people - yes there are hordes of 20 year olds that have always wanted to "work on the fortnite" but their productivity compared to someone long in the industry who understands how to effectively test, can write clear test plans and knows the importance of reproduction steps and who understands test automation... it's a night and day comparison.
      - nightski 4y ago
        Correct, but a shortage works in favor of the employee. No Union needed.
        ncallaway 4y ago
        A union makes it easier for employees to take full advantage of the shortage. Just because a union isn’t “needed”, doesn’t mean it can’t be helpful.
        nightski 4y ago
        It can also be harmful and unless you admit that you aren’t being honest based on history.
    - 4y ago
- rychco 4y ago
  A friend of mine was on the QA team at Blizzard Albany and his complaints were straightforward: the pay is awful & the hours are long (especially during crunch).
  - bonestamp2 4y ago
    Crunch is likely why the gaming companies will throw everything they have at stopping unionization. The first thing the unions will do is get rid of crunch. Rightfully so too -- none of the programming jobs I've had have made me believe that crunch time is actually necessary. But, management has to plan not to have crunch time rather than rely on it regularly. Under a union, the gaming industry will have to give a lot more time to work on tasks that have a specific deadline that can't be moved (like tie-ins with external events that won't get delayed, such as the super bowl for example).
    - spicymaki 4y ago
      That is a good thing. Crunch time is due to poor project planning. Limits on employee abuse can lead to needed productivity innovation. Another thing that could help is if customers would stop buying AAA games that push graphical limits to unnecessary extremes. Nintendo has demonstrated what you can accomplish through good game design and less reliance on extreme graphics.
      - bonestamp2 4y ago
        I agree. I hope unionization makes the gaming industry less toxic for workers.
    - munk-a 4y ago
      When I was working in the gaming industry there were days we (on the server team) had overtime because the client team was behind on their work and everyone staying late was better for morale... but we were ahead on ours since we'd fought hard for our timelines and my manager was a badass. The result was we server people sitting around chatting in the office while the client team struggled not to be distracted, I don't think it helped morale.
- ekianjo 4y ago
  > or the pay being that unfair. Isn't that the equivalent of other jobs in other industries where no qualification is required?
- zapataband1 4y ago
  Workers have a right to bargain for fair working conditions, it doesn't really matter what we think tbh. But why would you say that you assume the pay is 'fair'? We got bought by Oracle and no-one saw a raise in years, even through pandemic, where the ceo that makes 2000x our salary emailed us about how he was over the pandemic and decided to move to his private island in hawaii and make it 'a better place with the locals'
  - munk-a 4y ago
    Damn dude, you guys should really unionize. I know it's got a particularly bad reputation in SV but software developers are long overdue a strong union.
- ziddoap 4y ago
  >I can’t see their working conditions being genuinely terrible or unsafe, or the pay being that unfair. Can I ask what you are basing this assumption on?
  - gotoeleven 4y ago
    The fact that they accepted the job?
    - munk-a 4y ago
      Considering the churn at most QA shops I'm pretty sure they accepted the job while being told it was all rosy and are just there long enough to realize they were duped and find another job. EA in particular is famous for literally vomiting out disillusioned QA veterans.
    - ziddoap 4y ago
      Interviewers don't air dirty laundry? They sell a position to a qualified candidate. Keyword is sell. They're not going to tell you what frustrations other staff have, or if they treat their workers like shit, or if they make unreasonable demands that aren't in the job description, or if scope-creep on a project 4 months down the line will require me to start putting in overtime I didn't agree to, etc. If you know of an accurate way to determine what the day-to-day working conditions are for any arbitrary position in any company over an extended period of employment (including how work conditions will change with things like leadership changes, mergers, departmental transfers, special projects, etc.), shoot me an email because I will invest in whatever magic it is.
  - blobbers 4y ago
    This comment has drawn the ire of hackernews, simply for posing it, with a slight tilt. The general consensus seems to be that good QA is highly valuable. As for if their pay were unfair, would they not leave for a better pay/safer working conditions? My personal take is that people in the software industry don’t understand what terrible working conditions are. Running out of odwalla or having non-organic fruit in the micro kitchen is not terrible.
- corrral 4y ago
  > or the pay being that unfair. What's "fair" got to do with it? If they can get more, they should. Companies don't stop at "fair". CEOs don't stop at "fair".
- dylan604 4y ago
  >Is hackernews on the side of QA people? Is this in general or in this specific case of defending their decision to unionize? In general, I feel that QA should be paid as much as devs, when they are good. I've worked with a couple of "holy shit, how did you find that?" level of exceptional, and I felt they deserved more than I was paid and actively argued as much with our manager. Those people made me better, they made the products better, which ultimately made the company better. Keeping these people around make other QA people better. Instead, they get hired away because nobody pays them their worth, and you're left with a much less capable QA team.
- spicymaki 4y ago
  > Is hackernews on the side of QA people? That is such a trash comment. Good QA/test/validation engineers are worth their weight in gold! It is a absolute crime we don't pay the profession more.
koheripbal 4y ago
From a purely finance perspective, that's a sign that you should sell the stock.
- daenz 4y ago
  Can you elaborate on this please?
  - dghlsakjg 4y ago
    Maybe he means that a company famous for shit culture, in an industry famous for shit culture, that has employees forming a legal entity to defend themselves against the company has bad management?
    - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
      I guess the real question is what bit of that indicates something changed? It seems to be the same business as before.
- munk-a 4y ago
  If you're still holding onto Blizzard stock at this point, you've accepted that it's not going to rise in value anytime soon and just hoping for a beneficial acquisition or as a long investment. Unionization actually generally helps company growth in the long term since it's beneficial to the company - it just hurts stocks in the short term because the stock market hates unions.
manuelabeledo 4y ago
Good. I have always felt like tech workers have a hard time organising, which is a bit ironic. Events like this are a good sign for the overall industry.
- dspearson 4y ago
  It's the norm, rather than the exception, here in Europe. My employment contract is set through collective bargaining and I work at one of the largest tech employers in Switzerland. Being represented by a union is just standard fare. I don't understand the hostility to it across the pond.
  - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
    It's definitely not the norm in Europe. A few specific countries, maybe.
  - wincy 4y ago
    Serious question though, what’s the pay like for a software engineer in Switzerland? The last time I checked it was something around half or less of what a software engineer can make in a third tier city in the USA. I can deal with not being in a union when I make close to three times the average cost of living in my area and would be very surprised if a union could negotiate a better rate or better working conditions as a software engineer.
    - mistrial9 4y ago
      talk to a twenty year veteran software developer who is systematically passed over due to "bad cultural fit" about your salary survey.
      - dghlsakjg 4y ago
        There are plenty of 50 year old developers I know who are VERY actively pursued by recruiters. Maybe it’s because he really is a “bad cultural fit”. Everyone meets an asshole every now and then, if you meet assholes all the time, maybe the problem is that you’re an asshole…
bsagdiyev 4y ago
"Update: An Activision Blizzard spokesperson says that the company will not willingly recognize GWA Albany." Gonna go down kicking and screaming instead of just doing better.
- nimbius 4y ago
  I work in a union shop, and ive been in shops that have unionized. before the inks dried the company is going to throw every single thing they have at you to fight. youll get calls, youll get meetings, youll get your hours chopped stretched and moved all over the place. management will tell you what youre doing is illegal, that they can close the shop and walk away, that all your benefits will go away. and in the end, youll take a 15k raise, pick up some nice new PPE, sit at the same table as management and ask them to recall why they said all these things that werent true while they tell you they do not comment on any prior business conducted outside of a union agreement. our union ended mandatory overtime, slashed shift injuries, got healthier vending machines, and got health insurance for everyone.
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    >healthier vending machines? As in less injuries from them or?
    - FrenchDevRemote 4y ago
      as in food that won't kill you in the next 20 years I guess
      - chrsig 4y ago
        or food that hasn't been there for the last 20 years, possibly
    - wccrawford 4y ago
      I assume that means foods that aren't just sugar and empty calories in general.
smiddereens 4y ago
noasaservice 4y ago
Unfortunately, the biggest hole in unionization is that the company can unilaterally shut down the store/office AFTER the union is granted by the NLRB. It is illegal to go after individuals responsible for helping unionizing. It's also illegal to say that they will shut it down prior to unionization as a threat. But doing so afterward is 100% legal. Walmart's done this. Starbucks is doing this right now. And many other stores that are unionizing/unionized are being just closed with no warnings.
- soco 4y ago
  Closing down QA would be a more risky endeavour, but maybe some smart manager could even sell it as a gain. Fail fast right?
  - PenguinCoder 4y ago
    Not really, major companies are already using end users for beta testing, a/b testing and relying on user reports for bug fixes. It's becoming more and more standardized to release an inferior, bug filled product and just wait till users complain about something before fixing it. Reactive vs proactive is cheaper.
    - munk-a 4y ago
      As someone who has worked in game dev - QA is absolutely essential. Beta testing is more of a PR move than anything else - you do potentially get useful automatically collected statistics but surveys are absolutely loaded with rubbish responses making it hard to find good information in the bad. If you want to use Beta testing to do a wide bug sweep you need a QA team anyways to actually sort through all the crap and reproduce the issues - if you expect devs to actually chase down "The game crashed this one time after I built this building" with no attached save file you have no appreciation to how time crunched game devs already are. The other half of what you said, releasing a buggy product and fixing it afterwards - that happens all the time and it's usually a bit PR win since users appreciate "bug fixing velocity" more than they appreciate a bug free game... However, negative patches (where more things are broken than fixed) can be a death knell for a game - one good example of this is the Leviathan DLC for EU4[1]... Paradox spent months afterwards doing PR catch up to try and re-ingratiate themselves with the community. 1. https://store.steampowered.com/app/1416420/Expansion__Europa_Universalis_IV_Leviathan/#app_reviews_hash https://store.steampowered.com/app/1416420/Expansion__Europa...
standardUser 4y ago
Based on the QA people I've worked with over the years it can be grueling work with an unusually high level of responsibility and, from what I've seen, low pay compared to developer salaries. Seems like an obvious part of tech to be at the forefront of unionization. As for the companies fighting tooth and nail against unionization attempts, I don't blame them any more than I blame a dog for eating food I drop on the floor. It's just what they do. If we want a more equitable playing field for unionization we need to support policies and politicians to make that happen. Waving fists at for-profit enterprises accomplishes nothing.
- hancholo 4y ago
  This is more true for game testers/QA (notorious for low pay and turnover) than software QA in other industries. SDET's are developers that focus on testing and get paid on par with devs.
spywaregorilla 4y ago
I wonder how this will mesh with the microsoft acquisition
ivraatiems 4y ago
Good, and I wish them luck. The practices that companies are willing to engage in to prevent unionization are cartoonishly evil. The best part is that they could have avoided all of this by paying their QA more for fewer hours. The changes they'll likely be forced to make by a union are probably much more dramatic than what they could have quashed pro-union sentiment by simply introducing themselves. Put another way: As an engineer, I have a great salary, good stock options, and decent hours. I favor unions in principle but don't have a drive to force my company to set one up because I am not so poorly treated that I think I need it. Why not treat QA the same way? The exploitative practices that some in tech - especially the games industry - are exposed to are a long-term bet that those people won't mind being exploited and won't be convinced they can do better. It's a shame that bet pays off as often as it does.
- kibwen 4y ago
  > The practices that companies are willing to engage in to prevent unionization are cartoonishly evil. Yesterday, after a Chipotle in Maine became the first location to vote to unionize, corporate decided it would rather shutter the store than risk giving anyone else any bright ideas. The beatings will continue until morale improves. Honestly, I don't even particularly like the idea in principle of adding another layer of bureaucracy to any organization. I would rather have a country where strong labor laws made unions unnecessary. But it's plain to see that these companies need internal opposition in order to stay honest.
  - andrewlgood 4y ago
    Not quite a balanced representation of what happened. The store had been closed for a month due to an inability to hire people. Washington Post article has fuller explanation of both sides - https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/07/20/chipotle-union-maine-store-closure/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/07/20/chipotle-...
    - kibwen 4y ago
      That link is paywalled for me, here's one that's not, which claims that the location had "about 20" employees: https://www.boston.com/news/business/2022/07/19/chipotle-closes-maine-store-thwarting-union/ https://www.boston.com/news/business/2022/07/19/chipotle-clo... To see whether 20 is a low number, I searched for how many employees an average Chipotle branch has, which brings up this page (from 2018), where multiple commenters leave estimates that all hover around 20: https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Chipotle-Mexican-Grill/faq/how-many-employees-are-in-a-single-location?quid=1c55du3g1b82b8f8 https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Chipotle-Mexican-Grill/faq/how-ma...
carbadtraingood 4y ago
Good! Best of luck, long overdue in the industry. QA, in particular, has a thankless and critical job.
sidlls 4y ago
Good for them! If it’s anything like EA, their QA workers are overburdened and poorly treated.

172 points by mellosouls 4y ago

fru2013 4y ago

https://www.gamedeveloper.com/culture/qa-workers-at-blizzard-albany-are-unionizing https://www.gamedeveloper.com/culture/qa-workers-at-blizzard...

blobbers 4y ago

Is hackernews on the side of QA people? What’s the general feeling? I can’t see their working conditions being genuinely terrible or unsafe, or the pay being that unfair. Perhaps they’re being driven too hard?

ThemalSpan 4y ago
I don't think looking at hacker news as a hive mind is a good idea tbh. I'm on the side of those unionizing. Work conditions don't need to be unsafe for folks to unionize, and I'm fairly confident in saying that the vast majority of folks everywhere (in tech anyway) are paid an unfairly low amount for the value they generate.
- zapataband1 4y ago
  I remember McDonalds workers striking and a post about how their CEO makes ~1300x their salary. I looked up our dual CEO salary and together they were making like ~2000x our salaries.
- nightski 4y ago
  Except value you generate is not a good metric for salary. If I have an employee that generates 100M a year, but I have boundless applicants that can perform that same task then the unfortunate reality is that person is not that valuable.
  - nkjnlknlk 4y ago
    Then you are free to replace them with these boundless applicants. Weirdly, every tech company claims there is a shortage of talented employees.
    - bonestamp2 4y ago
      ... and it doesn't matter how easy the job is, you need people to do those jobs. In this labor market, it's hard to find people of all skill levels. I'm not suggesting QA is easy or doesn't require a lot of skill either -- it's very hard to find a really talented QA person.
      - munk-a 4y ago
        People outside the industry really undervalue talented QA people - yes there are hordes of 20 year olds that have always wanted to "work on the fortnite" but their productivity compared to someone long in the industry who understands how to effectively test, can write clear test plans and knows the importance of reproduction steps and who understands test automation... it's a night and day comparison.
    - nightski 4y ago
      Correct, but a shortage works in favor of the employee. No Union needed.
      - ncallaway 4y ago
        A union makes it easier for employees to take full advantage of the shortage. Just because a union isn’t “needed”, doesn’t mean it can’t be helpful.
        nightski 4y ago
        It can also be harmful and unless you admit that you aren’t being honest based on history.
  - 4y ago
rychco 4y ago
A friend of mine was on the QA team at Blizzard Albany and his complaints were straightforward: the pay is awful & the hours are long (especially during crunch).
- bonestamp2 4y ago
  Crunch is likely why the gaming companies will throw everything they have at stopping unionization. The first thing the unions will do is get rid of crunch. Rightfully so too -- none of the programming jobs I've had have made me believe that crunch time is actually necessary. But, management has to plan not to have crunch time rather than rely on it regularly. Under a union, the gaming industry will have to give a lot more time to work on tasks that have a specific deadline that can't be moved (like tie-ins with external events that won't get delayed, such as the super bowl for example).
  - spicymaki 4y ago
    That is a good thing. Crunch time is due to poor project planning. Limits on employee abuse can lead to needed productivity innovation. Another thing that could help is if customers would stop buying AAA games that push graphical limits to unnecessary extremes. Nintendo has demonstrated what you can accomplish through good game design and less reliance on extreme graphics.
    - bonestamp2 4y ago
      I agree. I hope unionization makes the gaming industry less toxic for workers.
  - munk-a 4y ago
    When I was working in the gaming industry there were days we (on the server team) had overtime because the client team was behind on their work and everyone staying late was better for morale... but we were ahead on ours since we'd fought hard for our timelines and my manager was a badass. The result was we server people sitting around chatting in the office while the client team struggled not to be distracted, I don't think it helped morale.
ekianjo 4y ago
> or the pay being that unfair. Isn't that the equivalent of other jobs in other industries where no qualification is required?
zapataband1 4y ago
Workers have a right to bargain for fair working conditions, it doesn't really matter what we think tbh. But why would you say that you assume the pay is 'fair'? We got bought by Oracle and no-one saw a raise in years, even through pandemic, where the ceo that makes 2000x our salary emailed us about how he was over the pandemic and decided to move to his private island in hawaii and make it 'a better place with the locals'
- munk-a 4y ago
  Damn dude, you guys should really unionize. I know it's got a particularly bad reputation in SV but software developers are long overdue a strong union.
ziddoap 4y ago
>I can’t see their working conditions being genuinely terrible or unsafe, or the pay being that unfair. Can I ask what you are basing this assumption on?
- gotoeleven 4y ago
  The fact that they accepted the job?
  - munk-a 4y ago
    Considering the churn at most QA shops I'm pretty sure they accepted the job while being told it was all rosy and are just there long enough to realize they were duped and find another job. EA in particular is famous for literally vomiting out disillusioned QA veterans.
  - ziddoap 4y ago
    Interviewers don't air dirty laundry? They sell a position to a qualified candidate. Keyword is sell. They're not going to tell you what frustrations other staff have, or if they treat their workers like shit, or if they make unreasonable demands that aren't in the job description, or if scope-creep on a project 4 months down the line will require me to start putting in overtime I didn't agree to, etc. If you know of an accurate way to determine what the day-to-day working conditions are for any arbitrary position in any company over an extended period of employment (including how work conditions will change with things like leadership changes, mergers, departmental transfers, special projects, etc.), shoot me an email because I will invest in whatever magic it is.
- blobbers 4y ago
  This comment has drawn the ire of hackernews, simply for posing it, with a slight tilt. The general consensus seems to be that good QA is highly valuable. As for if their pay were unfair, would they not leave for a better pay/safer working conditions? My personal take is that people in the software industry don’t understand what terrible working conditions are. Running out of odwalla or having non-organic fruit in the micro kitchen is not terrible.
corrral 4y ago
> or the pay being that unfair. What's "fair" got to do with it? If they can get more, they should. Companies don't stop at "fair". CEOs don't stop at "fair".
dylan604 4y ago
>Is hackernews on the side of QA people? Is this in general or in this specific case of defending their decision to unionize? In general, I feel that QA should be paid as much as devs, when they are good. I've worked with a couple of "holy shit, how did you find that?" level of exceptional, and I felt they deserved more than I was paid and actively argued as much with our manager. Those people made me better, they made the products better, which ultimately made the company better. Keeping these people around make other QA people better. Instead, they get hired away because nobody pays them their worth, and you're left with a much less capable QA team.
spicymaki 4y ago
> Is hackernews on the side of QA people? That is such a trash comment. Good QA/test/validation engineers are worth their weight in gold! It is a absolute crime we don't pay the profession more.

koheripbal 4y ago

From a purely finance perspective, that's a sign that you should sell the stock.

daenz 4y ago
Can you elaborate on this please?
- dghlsakjg 4y ago
  Maybe he means that a company famous for shit culture, in an industry famous for shit culture, that has employees forming a legal entity to defend themselves against the company has bad management?
  - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
    I guess the real question is what bit of that indicates something changed? It seems to be the same business as before.
munk-a 4y ago
If you're still holding onto Blizzard stock at this point, you've accepted that it's not going to rise in value anytime soon and just hoping for a beneficial acquisition or as a long investment. Unionization actually generally helps company growth in the long term since it's beneficial to the company - it just hurts stocks in the short term because the stock market hates unions.

manuelabeledo 4y ago

Good. I have always felt like tech workers have a hard time organising, which is a bit ironic. Events like this are a good sign for the overall industry.

dspearson 4y ago
It's the norm, rather than the exception, here in Europe. My employment contract is set through collective bargaining and I work at one of the largest tech employers in Switzerland. Being represented by a union is just standard fare. I don't understand the hostility to it across the pond.
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  It's definitely not the norm in Europe. A few specific countries, maybe.
- wincy 4y ago
  Serious question though, what’s the pay like for a software engineer in Switzerland? The last time I checked it was something around half or less of what a software engineer can make in a third tier city in the USA. I can deal with not being in a union when I make close to three times the average cost of living in my area and would be very surprised if a union could negotiate a better rate or better working conditions as a software engineer.
  - mistrial9 4y ago
    talk to a twenty year veteran software developer who is systematically passed over due to "bad cultural fit" about your salary survey.
    - dghlsakjg 4y ago
      There are plenty of 50 year old developers I know who are VERY actively pursued by recruiters. Maybe it’s because he really is a “bad cultural fit”. Everyone meets an asshole every now and then, if you meet assholes all the time, maybe the problem is that you’re an asshole…

bsagdiyev 4y ago

"Update: An Activision Blizzard spokesperson says that the company will not willingly recognize GWA Albany." Gonna go down kicking and screaming instead of just doing better.

nimbius 4y ago
I work in a union shop, and ive been in shops that have unionized. before the inks dried the company is going to throw every single thing they have at you to fight. youll get calls, youll get meetings, youll get your hours chopped stretched and moved all over the place. management will tell you what youre doing is illegal, that they can close the shop and walk away, that all your benefits will go away. and in the end, youll take a 15k raise, pick up some nice new PPE, sit at the same table as management and ask them to recall why they said all these things that werent true while they tell you they do not comment on any prior business conducted outside of a union agreement. our union ended mandatory overtime, slashed shift injuries, got healthier vending machines, and got health insurance for everyone.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  >healthier vending machines? As in less injuries from them or?
  - FrenchDevRemote 4y ago
    as in food that won't kill you in the next 20 years I guess
    - chrsig 4y ago
      or food that hasn't been there for the last 20 years, possibly
  - wccrawford 4y ago
    I assume that means foods that aren't just sugar and empty calories in general.

smiddereens 4y ago

noasaservice 4y ago

Unfortunately, the biggest hole in unionization is that the company can unilaterally shut down the store/office AFTER the union is granted by the NLRB. It is illegal to go after individuals responsible for helping unionizing. It's also illegal to say that they will shut it down prior to unionization as a threat. But doing so afterward is 100% legal. Walmart's done this. Starbucks is doing this right now. And many other stores that are unionizing/unionized are being just closed with no warnings.

soco 4y ago
Closing down QA would be a more risky endeavour, but maybe some smart manager could even sell it as a gain. Fail fast right?
- PenguinCoder 4y ago
  Not really, major companies are already using end users for beta testing, a/b testing and relying on user reports for bug fixes. It's becoming more and more standardized to release an inferior, bug filled product and just wait till users complain about something before fixing it. Reactive vs proactive is cheaper.
  - munk-a 4y ago
    As someone who has worked in game dev - QA is absolutely essential. Beta testing is more of a PR move than anything else - you do potentially get useful automatically collected statistics but surveys are absolutely loaded with rubbish responses making it hard to find good information in the bad. If you want to use Beta testing to do a wide bug sweep you need a QA team anyways to actually sort through all the crap and reproduce the issues - if you expect devs to actually chase down "The game crashed this one time after I built this building" with no attached save file you have no appreciation to how time crunched game devs already are. The other half of what you said, releasing a buggy product and fixing it afterwards - that happens all the time and it's usually a bit PR win since users appreciate "bug fixing velocity" more than they appreciate a bug free game... However, negative patches (where more things are broken than fixed) can be a death knell for a game - one good example of this is the Leviathan DLC for EU4[1]... Paradox spent months afterwards doing PR catch up to try and re-ingratiate themselves with the community. 1. https://store.steampowered.com/app/1416420/Expansion__Europa_Universalis_IV_Leviathan/#app_reviews_hash https://store.steampowered.com/app/1416420/Expansion__Europa...

standardUser 4y ago

Based on the QA people I've worked with over the years it can be grueling work with an unusually high level of responsibility and, from what I've seen, low pay compared to developer salaries. Seems like an obvious part of tech to be at the forefront of unionization. As for the companies fighting tooth and nail against unionization attempts, I don't blame them any more than I blame a dog for eating food I drop on the floor. It's just what they do. If we want a more equitable playing field for unionization we need to support policies and politicians to make that happen. Waving fists at for-profit enterprises accomplishes nothing.

hancholo 4y ago
This is more true for game testers/QA (notorious for low pay and turnover) than software QA in other industries. SDET's are developers that focus on testing and get paid on par with devs.

spywaregorilla 4y ago

I wonder how this will mesh with the microsoft acquisition

ivraatiems 4y ago

Good, and I wish them luck. The practices that companies are willing to engage in to prevent unionization are cartoonishly evil. The best part is that they could have avoided all of this by paying their QA more for fewer hours. The changes they'll likely be forced to make by a union are probably much more dramatic than what they could have quashed pro-union sentiment by simply introducing themselves. Put another way: As an engineer, I have a great salary, good stock options, and decent hours. I favor unions in principle but don't have a drive to force my company to set one up because I am not so poorly treated that I think I need it. Why not treat QA the same way? The exploitative practices that some in tech - especially the games industry - are exposed to are a long-term bet that those people won't mind being exploited and won't be convinced they can do better. It's a shame that bet pays off as often as it does.

kibwen 4y ago
> The practices that companies are willing to engage in to prevent unionization are cartoonishly evil. Yesterday, after a Chipotle in Maine became the first location to vote to unionize, corporate decided it would rather shutter the store than risk giving anyone else any bright ideas. The beatings will continue until morale improves. Honestly, I don't even particularly like the idea in principle of adding another layer of bureaucracy to any organization. I would rather have a country where strong labor laws made unions unnecessary. But it's plain to see that these companies need internal opposition in order to stay honest.
- andrewlgood 4y ago
  Not quite a balanced representation of what happened. The store had been closed for a month due to an inability to hire people. Washington Post article has fuller explanation of both sides - https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/07/20/chipotle-union-maine-store-closure/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/07/20/chipotle-...
  - kibwen 4y ago
    That link is paywalled for me, here's one that's not, which claims that the location had "about 20" employees: https://www.boston.com/news/business/2022/07/19/chipotle-closes-maine-store-thwarting-union/ https://www.boston.com/news/business/2022/07/19/chipotle-clo... To see whether 20 is a low number, I searched for how many employees an average Chipotle branch has, which brings up this page (from 2018), where multiple commenters leave estimates that all hover around 20: https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Chipotle-Mexican-Grill/faq/how-many-employees-are-in-a-single-location?quid=1c55du3g1b82b8f8 https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Chipotle-Mexican-Grill/faq/how-ma...

carbadtraingood 4y ago

Good! Best of luck, long overdue in the industry. QA, in particular, has a thankless and critical job.

sidlls 4y ago

Good for them! If it’s anything like EA, their QA workers are overburdened and poorly treated.