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Of course not. Every government is going to look out for themselves. Following your reasoning, look at China. They have their own playbook for operating within

Of course not. Every government is going to look out for themselves. Following your reasoning, look at China. They have their own playbook for operating within China, and it is quite restrictive. They make it harder for foreign entities to do business within China. From a geopolitical viewpoint this makes complete sense. You don't want your rival to have a backdoor into influencing/manipulating/discovering how people in your nation are behaving, especially when you consider how much data about sensitive information might be getting onto tiktok, like videos made by military service members on bases, videos showing gaps/issues/etc in infrastructure, or at ports and other locations. As for me, I'm an American and it is in my best interests that USA stays top dog. I didn't immigrate here to downgrade lol, so I want USA to do whatever it needs to be the top player.

germandiago 4y ago
Which takes me at why we have to be rivals (we people in countries), because government are rivals and monopolize trading and resources for themselves? It is very stupid that we passively accept those rules and let them drag us like that into things of this nature. I am really (I am european) pissed off by the fact that someone decided we needed a war with Ukraine when we do not have anything for/against Russia or Ukraine in principle and they start to make pressure to all private business, etc. to make them do what these people want us to do. Literally in Spain I saw even bad press for people selling clothes (Mango) or yoghurts (Danone) just because they kept selling those products to normal Russian people. So govts can sell/send weapons to Ukraine with our taxes and without our permission at the same time they encourage and point to private company doing regular business so that they stop selling there? Seriously? I really do not accept that, I want to have friends from wherever, go with whoever and do business with whom I deem appropriate without asking permission to anyone. If I am not selling intelligence for spying or weapons, what is wrong? I really do not get it.
- int0x20 4y ago
  - germandiago 4y ago
    I am not for or against russians or ukranians. Think whatever but in a war you are going to see many disgusting things from both sides. It is like that. I declare myself neutral and the last thing I wanted is my country to be involved in this stuff (and others). Of course, at the same time I think that Russian invasion was stupid and a mistake. This is a power game and nothing else. I just want to live normal, not to get into unnecessary trouble. Diplomacy would have been better. And if diplomacy does not work, I do not know why Spain should be further involved. I can understand that countries close such as Latvia, Finland, Poland, etc. take a non-neutral position on this. But Spain? Seriously...
    - jen20 4y ago
      > I am not for or against russians Assuming you are actually German (based on your username), you really shouldn’t require a particularly deep history lesson to understand why Russia is a problem. Jesus fuck man, the brick line runs through the center of your own capital city.
      - narag 4y ago
        Assuming you are actually German... Germán is a name, equivalent to Germain, Armand or Herman.
        germandiago 4y ago
        Thanks. :) Not from Germany in fact.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      > I declare myself neutral Until it is your ass that's on the line I guess?
      - germandiago 4y ago
        Actually I know what you mean, but on the other side of things, thinking that getting involved in absolutely every conflict is a good idea... I do not know, I do not see it as a good solution honestly.
- moomoo11 4y ago
  I mean I get your sentiment on one hand. On the other hand, I have people in my family who knew what life is like under European (British) imperialism and being considered sub-human.
- XorNot 4y ago
  > I really do not accept that, I want to have friends from wherever, go with whoever and do business with whom I deem appropriate without asking permission to anyone. Ask yourself what Ukranian citizens would answer to that question.
  - germandiago 4y ago
    I am not talking about that. I agree with you about that. I have a good Ukranian friend also, even I visited his home some months back (in Spain). The topic is why everyone gets involved in things that are far and foreign to them.
    - XorNot 4y ago
      You are arguing that a Ukranian invasion means you should get to continue doing business with Russia freely because how could it affect you? You are arguing you should continue to help fund the war, the weapons, the rapes and murders by Russian forces while they invade Ukraine. You might have dressed it up in pretty prose, but your position is "guess a little genocide is just something we have to live with".
      - germandiago 4y ago
        I mean there are people who know totally normal russian and ukranian citizens like you and I and no government is entitled to put is in a war and after that choose who we can do business with. Russia, Ukraine or whatever country is not a block of people you must be against. It is formed by each of its individuals. If you do not want to do business with them bc you consider it harmful, that is ok. But you cannot force everyone else under your vision. Why should you? With which right you go to make pressure to private business that are just selling clothes or milk-derived products? To me it makes no sense, honestly.
- klodolph 4y ago
  > I really do not accept that, I want to have friends from wherever, go with whoever and do business with whom I deem appropriate without asking permission to anyone. The reason that systems of economic sanctions exist is to provide alternatives to war. Europe learned some very rough lessons in the 20th century and earlier, leading up to the formation of the EU and before that the formation of the UN. These institutions and other institutions were created by people with memories of large-scale war fresh in their minds.
  - germandiago 4y ago
    > The reason that systems of economic sanctions exist is to provide alternatives to war I am not talking about this. I am talking about the fact that it is an oligarchy who chooses whether we go to war or not. I do not think most spanish think that Spain should be involved in a war that is at the other side of Europe where either of those country did anything to us. This is what I mean. These wars respond to oligarchies interests, not to normal citizens interests. I do not know if you get my point. Maybe there are real problems in Ukraine, well there are. But how is that really a reason to involve Spain? Why? Diplomacy, yes, sending weapons no. What if Russia decides we are in a black list later? Were we able to make a choice? Bc this involves our security and our economy and affects normal citizens. So there is necessarily someone interested in this that is not normal, average people like me.
    - CamperBob2 4y ago
      Your beef is with Vladimir Putin, not some nameless "oligarchy." As was pointed out to you, Europe has learned some hard lessons about the consequences of appeasement. The mistakes made in the 1930s must not be repeated with Russia today. If you find this truth to be offensive, tragic, or overly inconvenient, well... so do all who live to see such times, as the guy with the long gray beard said.
    - klodolph 4y ago
      This is how governments behaved in 1930, and bad things happened. If we are going to make mistakes, I hope we make new mistakes, instead of making the same mistakes from 100 years ago.
hnlmorg 4y ago
Well in that case I hope you don't moan when the EU places heavy restrictions on the data harvesting that American companies do. I get the paranoia around China, I honestly do. I'm not at all unsupportive of the Chinese regime either. But this "one rule for us another for them" principle really needs to stop.
- Cederfjard 4y ago
  Why should it stop, as long as nations continue to pose threats to each other and their populations? I support both the US and the EU putting these restrictions in place (until such a time when everyone can be trusted, if ever).
  - hnlmorg 4y ago
    Because it's a cyclic argument that only leads to hostilities. Of course I'm not advocating that if we stop collecting data everyone will suddenly play nice. But that doesn't mean it isn't extraordinarily hypocritical to moan about China and the EU placing restrictions on US companies (as is a frequent gripe on HN) while simultaneously placing restrictions on China and EU firms too. We need to learn to find a saner middle ground if we're ever to advance as a species.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - DangitBobby 4y ago
      I see very few (zero?) people groaning about data restrictions set by the EU.
      - hnlmorg 4y ago
        That doesn't mean it hasn't happened on threads you haven't seen. Anecdotally I've seen it happen a lot. Which, uncoincidentally, is also the reason why I mentioned it.
pokepim 4y ago
- puszczyk 4y ago
  Seriously, you equate banning TikTok to being a racist or an antisemite?
  - arvinsim 4y ago
    Banning Tiktok would have serious geopolitical consequences.
    - JCharante 4y ago
      Just apply the same rules to them as they do to us and require them to store US data on US servers and give the government the encryption keys.
  - manuelmoreale 4y ago
    I think they’re equating the mindset of “my group of people who happens to have this nationality has to be top dog” with “my group of people who happens to have this skin color has to be top dog” This is not really about tik tok but more about the broader stance expressed by the comment they’re replying to.
tuxie_ 4y ago
Do you understand that your own government has even more power over you than a foreign one? It's in your best interest that no government collects this kind of data about you.
- Aeolun 4y ago
  The country that you reside in has the most power over you simply by virtue of having an active police force and/or military. No need for any data collection whatsoever.
  - d0mine 4y ago
    People had their life ruined for a tweet from a decade ago. Now imagine your whole life is tweeted minute by minute. Even if the current government won't hang you, it doesn't mean the next one won't do it for the things that are legal and completely normal today.
- jen20 4y ago
  The principle here isn’t about what is in your interest…
- hjkl0 4y ago
  But don’t forget that you also have much more power over your government than a foreign one.
  - ComodoHacker 4y ago
    Depends on country and government, TBH.
peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> so I want USA to do whatever it needs to be the top player I would argue that admitting that the only way to convince Chinese apps to not track American users is to ban them (mostly because it's eating their own dog food with TikTok that's nowadays much more popular than America's own spying apps) doesn't sound much top dog, more like small dog barking at the big one.
- bakugo 4y ago
  > TikTok that's nowadays much more popular than America's own spying apps America's spying "apps" aren't "apps", they're called operating systems and firmwares.
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    good point https://techcrunch.com/2022/07/18/denmark-bans-chromebooks-and-google-workspace-in-schools-over-gdpr/ https://techcrunch.com/2022/07/18/denmark-bans-chromebooks-a...
Grimburger 4y ago
> I want USA to do whatever it needs to be the top player Good for you, but try imagine hearing this from a Chinese national. "Whatever it needs" to do...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > "Whatever it needs" to do... Like, for example, retake control of Taiwan. https://eurasiantimes.com/perturbed-by-2nd-incursion-china-warns-us-not-to-play-with-fire/ https://eurasiantimes.com/perturbed-by-2nd-incursion-china-w...
- moomoo11 4y ago
  Its exactly in line with what I said. End of the day, we're all on teams whether or not you like it. And every single country on this planet has baggage. I have people in my family who are living who remember what it feels like to be considered sub-human by British imperialists as they allowed famines. On the grand scheme of things, if we add up the sins and good deeds, the USA has done more to improve the lives of people who are here than other places. It is one of the major reasons my family and I immigrated here. Is it perfect? No. But it is a place where a bunch of different types of people attempt to build something together. Gridlock sucks, sometimes it feels pretty awful, but just speaking personally for myself there's nowhere else in the world where someone like me (with my skin color, religious preferences, etc.) would be able to go as far, or further. For all its faults, the USA has - elected an African American president twice - fought itself and destroyed its own people and cities over slavery - helped stop 2 world wars - most of the top companies and talent - created a sense of world stability where people for the most part chill the f out when they see and want $USD And it has also caused some problems along the way, I'm sure you can name many of them. But again, in 2022, when I do a simple calculation of where I (with my own baggage and attributes) would most prosper, I can't think of another country. I have been to Japan, loved it there, but it isn't the melting pot that America is. Again these are just my opinions, as someone who immigrated to the USA and is proud to call themselves a US citizen.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
GoblinSlayer 4y ago
>As for me, I'm an American and it is in my best interests that USA stays top dog. What do you mean by USA though? It's not a monolithic object and has plenty of rivals too. Also if USA is top dog, it may get freedom to do whatever it wants to you, be careful about what you want. When was the last time absolute power produced good results?
- viraptor 4y ago
  Also, power changes hands over time. As we've seen recently, where suddenly period trackers with any server side storage are an actual liability and an extremely dangerous idea.
andruby 4y ago
> You don't want your rival to have a backdoor into influencing/manipulating/discovering how people in your nation are behaving And yet, Russia heavily used Facebook to influence/manipulate American behaviour during the election.
- washadjeffmad 4y ago
  Do you distinguish between private companies that are homed in Russian and the Russian government? If not, do you distinguish between companies that are homed in the US and the US government?
  - andruby 4y ago
    I do distinguish between both. How does that relates to my comment?
olalonde 4y ago
First, this ignores that the USA benefits tremendously from trading with other countries, most of all with China. If this mindset was applied universally, the USA (and the world) would be worse off. It also ignores that treating countries as though they are enemies can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. It can increase the threat rather than decrease it. Second, it's not necessarily in one's best interest to live in a "top dog" country. There are plenty of happy and prosperous people living outside the USA. The USA ranks 26th for median wealth. To give another example, even if China took the top dog spot, the average US citizen would still be better off than the average Chinese citizen. Thirdly, I don't think the US remaining top dog is a realistic objective in the long term. In my opinion, it would be smarter to lead by example knowing that your successor will be judged by the standard you set.
- roberttod 4y ago
  Your first argument sounds like appeasement, didn't work so well in WW2. Sounds like burying your head in the sand hoping no one will do anything bad. I think the parent post means top dog in military and power sense, not welfare of citizens which is all well and good until another nation is trying to undermine your core values. > Your successor will be judged by the standard you set What successor are we thinking of here? Is that China? India? Russia? These are all very scary regimes.
  - roenxi 4y ago
    The story of appeasement was basically that the Nazis kept invading places, country after country, until they tried to take on the USSR and got transformed into paste (the US getting involved being a major factor). It was really quite breathtaking in hindsight because they wouldn't stop and obviously didn't intend to stop, ever. gp's argument has no parallel to appeasement.
    - roberttod 4y ago
      > treating countries as though they are enemies can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. It can increase the threat rather than decrease it. That's what I was referring to. Not appeasement exactly but seems like similar logic.
sneak 4y ago
Censorship always "makes sense" "from a geopolitical standpoint". It never makes sense from a human rights standpoint.
netheril96 4y ago
As a Chinese, I feel sad that China succeeds in exporting its idea of restriction to the world.
- programmer_dude 4y ago
  No need to be. It's all good as long as the restrictions are just quid pro quo.
blacklion 4y ago
> I want USA to do whatever it needs to be the top player Are you sure? Several months ago I've woke up to learn, that my country start to kill civilians of other country with bombs, missiles and shelling, to become "top player". And, what is even worse, many of my fellow citizens support it. Now I'm trying to leave this country for some other, which don't have ambitions to be top-player but don't kill civilians and don't attack malls and hospitals.
- scrollaway 4y ago
  Good luck from Belgium. Reach out if you need help; I’ve assisted in the expatriation of people like you and wish to keep doing so.
- go_elmo 4y ago
  Youll enjoy europe then, scandinavia among others is surely on top of the us in every term apart from business revenue and the army.
  - arroz 4y ago
    And opportunities, and size of homes, and cost of living
    - go_elmo 4y ago
      Opportunities to get shot, cross drug addicts, not be able to abort, lose your home because of health care costs
- tehsauce 4y ago
  Thanks for sharing your perspective. Best of luck
- blitz_skull 4y ago
  This comment seems in bad faith. I think it’s pretty clear this conversation wasn’t about killing civilians so the comment about “whatever necessary” probably wasn’t intended to include violations of the Geneva convention. Just saying.
madeofpalk 4y ago
What about the Canadians, Australians, or Dutch? Should they require App Stores to ban Facebook for giving data to foreign (US) governments?
mehdix 4y ago
Only if the top-dog analogy would have worked in long term. More than often, citizens of wanna-be/wanna-remain top-dog countries find themselves in terrible position as soon as their interests mildly conflicts with those of their nation states and they suddenly become pray to the top-dog itself. One area where you can see this in action is secure communication. When it comes to secure private communications for citizens, suddenly all nation-states, left and right want to excert unlimited control over it and they are united in fight against encryption.
Baloo 4y ago
>I'm an American and it is in my best interests that USA stays top dog World is being destroyed because of this kind of view point. We need more collaboration, not 'me first'.
themitigating 4y ago
"As for me, I'm an American and it is in my best interests that USA stays top dog. I didn't immigrate here to downgrade lol, so I want USA to do whatever it needs to be the top player." The country or its people? This seems like a very selfish sentiment. Shouldn't we want everyone to prosper, no matter where they are from? There are countless who may not be able to afford to emigrate to the US
- atwood22 4y ago
  Life is largely zero-sum.
  - diogenes_of_ak 4y ago
    This is a weird thought. Nearly none of my wife is zero sum. Who loses out if I buy you a beer? Or if my wife and I love each other? Or if people are nice to others? Like seriously - if I treat someone else with respect and dignity am I required to shit on someone else? Of course not.
    - atwood22 4y ago
      Zero sum doesn’t mean there is a loser to every transaction. It just means that the net total change is zero. You buy a friend a beer, and you get a beers worth of camaraderie.
      - diogenes_of_ak 4y ago
        What remains constant when I give my son a hug? Or I say, “thank you?” The zero-sum game is life stuff is nonsense.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        echelon 4y ago
        When you eat food, something had to die for that. It was a transfer of biochemical energy from that creature to you. Even if it was a vegetarian meal, it got transported to you and dumped CO2 into the atmosphere. The truck probably hit bugs and maybe ran over some small wildlife. If you didn't exist, there would be slightly less demand. If 300 million of you didn't exist, there would be a whole lot less demand. The world would be noticeably different. Everything is energy expenditure and reallocation. Even hugging your son expends ATP that could have been used elsewhere. Hug him a million times and you will be very tired. I'm not arguing that you shouldn't love your son. I'm saying that the world, at the most fundamental level, revolves around the availability of energy and resources. All of these things in the micro add up in the macro. And even if you aren't concerned about it, your government likely is. Every single choice has some quantum of opportunity cost and will play out in butterfly effect fashion.
CWuestefeld 4y ago
It seems to be your idea, that America is prosperous despite freedom, and that we must carefully dole out the freedom lest we lose our edge. I believe that America was founded on the idea that we could be great because we are free, and that giving our people the opportunity to thrive and be productive will only, in the long run, make our prosperity that much greater. It's been said that the Constitution is not a suicide pact. You would interpret this, I think, to mean that we should toss out the Bill of Rights anytime it seems inconvenient to our short-term ends. But I see it as a statement that, even when it seems contradictory, investing in the people rather than the power over them will lead to a greater nation even when that seems counterintuitive.
- FreqSep 4y ago
  > we should toss out the Bill of Rights anytime it seems inconvenient to our short-term ends We already do this. You have the right to bear arms - just not nuclear ones. America has always had to place reasonable restrictions on rights to ensure the public good.
elif 4y ago
It's easy to believe that until the top dog is on top of you It is your data they are collecting, not some other dog's.
Razengan 4y ago
> I didn't immigrate here to downgrade lol You can still upgrade, you know.
rpastuszak 4y ago
> As for me, I'm an American and it is in my best interests that USA stays top dog. I didn't immigrate here to downgrade lol, so I want USA to do whatever it needs to be the top player. The interests of your government might not necessarily be aligned with yours. Likely, their personal gains or the interests of lobbyists would come first and not necessarily align with borders/the colour of your passport cover. If you wanna stay "top dog", perhaps think it through a bit more and think a bit broader.
FpUser 4y ago
>"I want USA to do whatever it needs to be the top player" How far are you willing to go? Do you give a shit about people being killed so that your country stays rich and "on top"?
DrScientist 4y ago
> so I want USA to do whatever it needs to be the top player. Speaking as a friend - this attitude is becoming an existential problem for the US abroad. More and more countries are wondering if it's the US that's the problem.
desireco42 4y ago
Haha, true, I didn't immigrate here to end up in 3rd world country as well, but the Internet is very important and for it to work, it has to apply the same rules for everyone. Facebook and Google have a NSA servers that get all the traffic even before they reach them and have complete access into their info, then you can't complain when Chinese do the same, after all, they are admiring USA and copying what we are doing. If we want Chinese to do better, we need to do better, they will follow.
dang 4y ago
We detached this flamewar subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32148302 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32148302.

germandiago 4y ago

Which takes me at why we have to be rivals (we people in countries), because government are rivals and monopolize trading and resources for themselves? It is very stupid that we passively accept those rules and let them drag us like that into things of this nature. I am really (I am european) pissed off by the fact that someone decided we needed a war with Ukraine when we do not have anything for/against Russia or Ukraine in principle and they start to make pressure to all private business, etc. to make them do what these people want us to do. Literally in Spain I saw even bad press for people selling clothes (Mango) or yoghurts (Danone) just because they kept selling those products to normal Russian people. So govts can sell/send weapons to Ukraine with our taxes and without our permission at the same time they encourage and point to private company doing regular business so that they stop selling there? Seriously? I really do not accept that, I want to have friends from wherever, go with whoever and do business with whom I deem appropriate without asking permission to anyone. If I am not selling intelligence for spying or weapons, what is wrong? I really do not get it.

int0x20 4y ago
- germandiago 4y ago
  I am not for or against russians or ukranians. Think whatever but in a war you are going to see many disgusting things from both sides. It is like that. I declare myself neutral and the last thing I wanted is my country to be involved in this stuff (and others). Of course, at the same time I think that Russian invasion was stupid and a mistake. This is a power game and nothing else. I just want to live normal, not to get into unnecessary trouble. Diplomacy would have been better. And if diplomacy does not work, I do not know why Spain should be further involved. I can understand that countries close such as Latvia, Finland, Poland, etc. take a non-neutral position on this. But Spain? Seriously...
  - jen20 4y ago
    > I am not for or against russians Assuming you are actually German (based on your username), you really shouldn’t require a particularly deep history lesson to understand why Russia is a problem. Jesus fuck man, the brick line runs through the center of your own capital city.
    - narag 4y ago
      Assuming you are actually German... Germán is a name, equivalent to Germain, Armand or Herman.
      - germandiago 4y ago
        Thanks. :) Not from Germany in fact.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    > I declare myself neutral Until it is your ass that's on the line I guess?
    - germandiago 4y ago
      Actually I know what you mean, but on the other side of things, thinking that getting involved in absolutely every conflict is a good idea... I do not know, I do not see it as a good solution honestly.
moomoo11 4y ago
I mean I get your sentiment on one hand. On the other hand, I have people in my family who knew what life is like under European (British) imperialism and being considered sub-human.
XorNot 4y ago
> I really do not accept that, I want to have friends from wherever, go with whoever and do business with whom I deem appropriate without asking permission to anyone. Ask yourself what Ukranian citizens would answer to that question.
- germandiago 4y ago
  I am not talking about that. I agree with you about that. I have a good Ukranian friend also, even I visited his home some months back (in Spain). The topic is why everyone gets involved in things that are far and foreign to them.
  - XorNot 4y ago
    You are arguing that a Ukranian invasion means you should get to continue doing business with Russia freely because how could it affect you? You are arguing you should continue to help fund the war, the weapons, the rapes and murders by Russian forces while they invade Ukraine. You might have dressed it up in pretty prose, but your position is "guess a little genocide is just something we have to live with".
    - germandiago 4y ago
      I mean there are people who know totally normal russian and ukranian citizens like you and I and no government is entitled to put is in a war and after that choose who we can do business with. Russia, Ukraine or whatever country is not a block of people you must be against. It is formed by each of its individuals. If you do not want to do business with them bc you consider it harmful, that is ok. But you cannot force everyone else under your vision. Why should you? With which right you go to make pressure to private business that are just selling clothes or milk-derived products? To me it makes no sense, honestly.
klodolph 4y ago
> I really do not accept that, I want to have friends from wherever, go with whoever and do business with whom I deem appropriate without asking permission to anyone. The reason that systems of economic sanctions exist is to provide alternatives to war. Europe learned some very rough lessons in the 20th century and earlier, leading up to the formation of the EU and before that the formation of the UN. These institutions and other institutions were created by people with memories of large-scale war fresh in their minds.
- germandiago 4y ago
  > The reason that systems of economic sanctions exist is to provide alternatives to war I am not talking about this. I am talking about the fact that it is an oligarchy who chooses whether we go to war or not. I do not think most spanish think that Spain should be involved in a war that is at the other side of Europe where either of those country did anything to us. This is what I mean. These wars respond to oligarchies interests, not to normal citizens interests. I do not know if you get my point. Maybe there are real problems in Ukraine, well there are. But how is that really a reason to involve Spain? Why? Diplomacy, yes, sending weapons no. What if Russia decides we are in a black list later? Were we able to make a choice? Bc this involves our security and our economy and affects normal citizens. So there is necessarily someone interested in this that is not normal, average people like me.
  - CamperBob2 4y ago
    Your beef is with Vladimir Putin, not some nameless "oligarchy." As was pointed out to you, Europe has learned some hard lessons about the consequences of appeasement. The mistakes made in the 1930s must not be repeated with Russia today. If you find this truth to be offensive, tragic, or overly inconvenient, well... so do all who live to see such times, as the guy with the long gray beard said.
  - klodolph 4y ago
    This is how governments behaved in 1930, and bad things happened. If we are going to make mistakes, I hope we make new mistakes, instead of making the same mistakes from 100 years ago.

hnlmorg 4y ago

Well in that case I hope you don't moan when the EU places heavy restrictions on the data harvesting that American companies do. I get the paranoia around China, I honestly do. I'm not at all unsupportive of the Chinese regime either. But this "one rule for us another for them" principle really needs to stop.

Cederfjard 4y ago
Why should it stop, as long as nations continue to pose threats to each other and their populations? I support both the US and the EU putting these restrictions in place (until such a time when everyone can be trusted, if ever).
- hnlmorg 4y ago
  Because it's a cyclic argument that only leads to hostilities. Of course I'm not advocating that if we stop collecting data everyone will suddenly play nice. But that doesn't mean it isn't extraordinarily hypocritical to moan about China and the EU placing restrictions on US companies (as is a frequent gripe on HN) while simultaneously placing restrictions on China and EU firms too. We need to learn to find a saner middle ground if we're ever to advance as a species.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - DangitBobby 4y ago
    I see very few (zero?) people groaning about data restrictions set by the EU.
    - hnlmorg 4y ago
      That doesn't mean it hasn't happened on threads you haven't seen. Anecdotally I've seen it happen a lot. Which, uncoincidentally, is also the reason why I mentioned it.

pokepim 4y ago

puszczyk 4y ago
Seriously, you equate banning TikTok to being a racist or an antisemite?
- arvinsim 4y ago
  Banning Tiktok would have serious geopolitical consequences.
  - JCharante 4y ago
    Just apply the same rules to them as they do to us and require them to store US data on US servers and give the government the encryption keys.
- manuelmoreale 4y ago
  I think they’re equating the mindset of “my group of people who happens to have this nationality has to be top dog” with “my group of people who happens to have this skin color has to be top dog” This is not really about tik tok but more about the broader stance expressed by the comment they’re replying to.

tuxie_ 4y ago

Do you understand that your own government has even more power over you than a foreign one? It's in your best interest that no government collects this kind of data about you.

Aeolun 4y ago
The country that you reside in has the most power over you simply by virtue of having an active police force and/or military. No need for any data collection whatsoever.
- d0mine 4y ago
  People had their life ruined for a tweet from a decade ago. Now imagine your whole life is tweeted minute by minute. Even if the current government won't hang you, it doesn't mean the next one won't do it for the things that are legal and completely normal today.
jen20 4y ago
The principle here isn’t about what is in your interest…
hjkl0 4y ago
But don’t forget that you also have much more power over your government than a foreign one.
- ComodoHacker 4y ago
  Depends on country and government, TBH.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago

> so I want USA to do whatever it needs to be the top player I would argue that admitting that the only way to convince Chinese apps to not track American users is to ban them (mostly because it's eating their own dog food with TikTok that's nowadays much more popular than America's own spying apps) doesn't sound much top dog, more like small dog barking at the big one.

bakugo 4y ago
> TikTok that's nowadays much more popular than America's own spying apps America's spying "apps" aren't "apps", they're called operating systems and firmwares.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  good point https://techcrunch.com/2022/07/18/denmark-bans-chromebooks-and-google-workspace-in-schools-over-gdpr/ https://techcrunch.com/2022/07/18/denmark-bans-chromebooks-a...

Grimburger 4y ago

> I want USA to do whatever it needs to be the top player Good for you, but try imagine hearing this from a Chinese national. "Whatever it needs" to do...

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peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> "Whatever it needs" to do... Like, for example, retake control of Taiwan. https://eurasiantimes.com/perturbed-by-2nd-incursion-china-warns-us-not-to-play-with-fire/ https://eurasiantimes.com/perturbed-by-2nd-incursion-china-w...
moomoo11 4y ago
Its exactly in line with what I said. End of the day, we're all on teams whether or not you like it. And every single country on this planet has baggage. I have people in my family who are living who remember what it feels like to be considered sub-human by British imperialists as they allowed famines. On the grand scheme of things, if we add up the sins and good deeds, the USA has done more to improve the lives of people who are here than other places. It is one of the major reasons my family and I immigrated here. Is it perfect? No. But it is a place where a bunch of different types of people attempt to build something together. Gridlock sucks, sometimes it feels pretty awful, but just speaking personally for myself there's nowhere else in the world where someone like me (with my skin color, religious preferences, etc.) would be able to go as far, or further. For all its faults, the USA has - elected an African American president twice - fought itself and destroyed its own people and cities over slavery - helped stop 2 world wars - most of the top companies and talent - created a sense of world stability where people for the most part chill the f out when they see and want $USD And it has also caused some problems along the way, I'm sure you can name many of them. But again, in 2022, when I do a simple calculation of where I (with my own baggage and attributes) would most prosper, I can't think of another country. I have been to Japan, loved it there, but it isn't the melting pot that America is. Again these are just my opinions, as someone who immigrated to the USA and is proud to call themselves a US citizen.

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GoblinSlayer 4y ago

>As for me, I'm an American and it is in my best interests that USA stays top dog. What do you mean by USA though? It's not a monolithic object and has plenty of rivals too. Also if USA is top dog, it may get freedom to do whatever it wants to you, be careful about what you want. When was the last time absolute power produced good results?

viraptor 4y ago
Also, power changes hands over time. As we've seen recently, where suddenly period trackers with any server side storage are an actual liability and an extremely dangerous idea.

andruby 4y ago

> You don't want your rival to have a backdoor into influencing/manipulating/discovering how people in your nation are behaving And yet, Russia heavily used Facebook to influence/manipulate American behaviour during the election.

washadjeffmad 4y ago
Do you distinguish between private companies that are homed in Russian and the Russian government? If not, do you distinguish between companies that are homed in the US and the US government?
- andruby 4y ago
  I do distinguish between both. How does that relates to my comment?

olalonde 4y ago

First, this ignores that the USA benefits tremendously from trading with other countries, most of all with China. If this mindset was applied universally, the USA (and the world) would be worse off. It also ignores that treating countries as though they are enemies can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. It can increase the threat rather than decrease it. Second, it's not necessarily in one's best interest to live in a "top dog" country. There are plenty of happy and prosperous people living outside the USA. The USA ranks 26th for median wealth. To give another example, even if China took the top dog spot, the average US citizen would still be better off than the average Chinese citizen. Thirdly, I don't think the US remaining top dog is a realistic objective in the long term. In my opinion, it would be smarter to lead by example knowing that your successor will be judged by the standard you set.

roberttod 4y ago
Your first argument sounds like appeasement, didn't work so well in WW2. Sounds like burying your head in the sand hoping no one will do anything bad. I think the parent post means top dog in military and power sense, not welfare of citizens which is all well and good until another nation is trying to undermine your core values. > Your successor will be judged by the standard you set What successor are we thinking of here? Is that China? India? Russia? These are all very scary regimes.
- roenxi 4y ago
  The story of appeasement was basically that the Nazis kept invading places, country after country, until they tried to take on the USSR and got transformed into paste (the US getting involved being a major factor). It was really quite breathtaking in hindsight because they wouldn't stop and obviously didn't intend to stop, ever. gp's argument has no parallel to appeasement.
  - roberttod 4y ago
    > treating countries as though they are enemies can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. It can increase the threat rather than decrease it. That's what I was referring to. Not appeasement exactly but seems like similar logic.

sneak 4y ago

Censorship always "makes sense" "from a geopolitical standpoint". It never makes sense from a human rights standpoint.

netheril96 4y ago

As a Chinese, I feel sad that China succeeds in exporting its idea of restriction to the world.

programmer_dude 4y ago
No need to be. It's all good as long as the restrictions are just quid pro quo.

blacklion 4y ago

> I want USA to do whatever it needs to be the top player Are you sure? Several months ago I've woke up to learn, that my country start to kill civilians of other country with bombs, missiles and shelling, to become "top player". And, what is even worse, many of my fellow citizens support it. Now I'm trying to leave this country for some other, which don't have ambitions to be top-player but don't kill civilians and don't attack malls and hospitals.

scrollaway 4y ago
Good luck from Belgium. Reach out if you need help; I’ve assisted in the expatriation of people like you and wish to keep doing so.
go_elmo 4y ago
Youll enjoy europe then, scandinavia among others is surely on top of the us in every term apart from business revenue and the army.
- arroz 4y ago
  And opportunities, and size of homes, and cost of living
  - go_elmo 4y ago
    Opportunities to get shot, cross drug addicts, not be able to abort, lose your home because of health care costs
tehsauce 4y ago
Thanks for sharing your perspective. Best of luck
blitz_skull 4y ago
This comment seems in bad faith. I think it’s pretty clear this conversation wasn’t about killing civilians so the comment about “whatever necessary” probably wasn’t intended to include violations of the Geneva convention. Just saying.

madeofpalk 4y ago

What about the Canadians, Australians, or Dutch? Should they require App Stores to ban Facebook for giving data to foreign (US) governments?

mehdix 4y ago

Only if the top-dog analogy would have worked in long term. More than often, citizens of wanna-be/wanna-remain top-dog countries find themselves in terrible position as soon as their interests mildly conflicts with those of their nation states and they suddenly become pray to the top-dog itself. One area where you can see this in action is secure communication. When it comes to secure private communications for citizens, suddenly all nation-states, left and right want to excert unlimited control over it and they are united in fight against encryption.

Baloo 4y ago

>I'm an American and it is in my best interests that USA stays top dog World is being destroyed because of this kind of view point. We need more collaboration, not 'me first'.

themitigating 4y ago

"As for me, I'm an American and it is in my best interests that USA stays top dog. I didn't immigrate here to downgrade lol, so I want USA to do whatever it needs to be the top player." The country or its people? This seems like a very selfish sentiment. Shouldn't we want everyone to prosper, no matter where they are from? There are countless who may not be able to afford to emigrate to the US

atwood22 4y ago
Life is largely zero-sum.
- diogenes_of_ak 4y ago
  This is a weird thought. Nearly none of my wife is zero sum. Who loses out if I buy you a beer? Or if my wife and I love each other? Or if people are nice to others? Like seriously - if I treat someone else with respect and dignity am I required to shit on someone else? Of course not.
  - atwood22 4y ago
    Zero sum doesn’t mean there is a loser to every transaction. It just means that the net total change is zero. You buy a friend a beer, and you get a beers worth of camaraderie.
    - diogenes_of_ak 4y ago
      What remains constant when I give my son a hug? Or I say, “thank you?” The zero-sum game is life stuff is nonsense.
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      - echelon 4y ago
        When you eat food, something had to die for that. It was a transfer of biochemical energy from that creature to you. Even if it was a vegetarian meal, it got transported to you and dumped CO2 into the atmosphere. The truck probably hit bugs and maybe ran over some small wildlife. If you didn't exist, there would be slightly less demand. If 300 million of you didn't exist, there would be a whole lot less demand. The world would be noticeably different. Everything is energy expenditure and reallocation. Even hugging your son expends ATP that could have been used elsewhere. Hug him a million times and you will be very tired. I'm not arguing that you shouldn't love your son. I'm saying that the world, at the most fundamental level, revolves around the availability of energy and resources. All of these things in the micro add up in the macro. And even if you aren't concerned about it, your government likely is. Every single choice has some quantum of opportunity cost and will play out in butterfly effect fashion.

CWuestefeld 4y ago

It seems to be your idea, that America is prosperous despite freedom, and that we must carefully dole out the freedom lest we lose our edge. I believe that America was founded on the idea that we could be great because we are free, and that giving our people the opportunity to thrive and be productive will only, in the long run, make our prosperity that much greater. It's been said that the Constitution is not a suicide pact. You would interpret this, I think, to mean that we should toss out the Bill of Rights anytime it seems inconvenient to our short-term ends. But I see it as a statement that, even when it seems contradictory, investing in the people rather than the power over them will lead to a greater nation even when that seems counterintuitive.

FreqSep 4y ago
> we should toss out the Bill of Rights anytime it seems inconvenient to our short-term ends We already do this. You have the right to bear arms - just not nuclear ones. America has always had to place reasonable restrictions on rights to ensure the public good.

elif 4y ago

It's easy to believe that until the top dog is on top of you It is your data they are collecting, not some other dog's.

Razengan 4y ago

> I didn't immigrate here to downgrade lol You can still upgrade, you know.

rpastuszak 4y ago

> As for me, I'm an American and it is in my best interests that USA stays top dog. I didn't immigrate here to downgrade lol, so I want USA to do whatever it needs to be the top player. The interests of your government might not necessarily be aligned with yours. Likely, their personal gains or the interests of lobbyists would come first and not necessarily align with borders/the colour of your passport cover. If you wanna stay "top dog", perhaps think it through a bit more and think a bit broader.

FpUser 4y ago

>"I want USA to do whatever it needs to be the top player" How far are you willing to go? Do you give a shit about people being killed so that your country stays rich and "on top"?

DrScientist 4y ago

> so I want USA to do whatever it needs to be the top player. Speaking as a friend - this attitude is becoming an existential problem for the US abroad. More and more countries are wondering if it's the US that's the problem.

desireco42 4y ago

Haha, true, I didn't immigrate here to end up in 3rd world country as well, but the Internet is very important and for it to work, it has to apply the same rules for everyone. Facebook and Google have a NSA servers that get all the traffic even before they reach them and have complete access into their info, then you can't complain when Chinese do the same, after all, they are admiring USA and copying what we are doing. If we want Chinese to do better, we need to do better, they will follow.

dang 4y ago

We detached this flamewar subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32148302 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32148302.