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I grew up in a small town and spent a lot of time driving through cows > people counties through college and young adulthood - every visit back to my parents me

I grew up in a small town and spent a lot of time driving through cows > people counties through college and young adulthood - every visit back to my parents meant seeing lots of cattle on the way. At grocery stores I would see packaging for “grass-fed beef” or “free-range” and honestly I thought it was like a joke that farmers were pulling on city people, like “gormet hand-picked potatoes” or “premium plastic” or something. What else would cows eat?? I’d probably seen a hundred thousand cows in my life, always in herds roaming around vast pastures. Of course they eat grass. Then I moved to California, and one day had occasion to drive from SF to LA. North of Bakersfield I encountered the most profound stink I’ve ever smelled while driving, and eventually I saw the source: industrial operations with enormous numbers of cattle in fenced pens shoulder to shoulder so they could hardly move. I spent the next ten minutes slack-jawed, reconsidering my life experience.

dzdt 4y ago
Even in pastureland country, cattle typically spend winters packed together in feedlots and are fattened in feedlots on a largely corn-based diet before slaughter. Depending on who is doing the labelling, cattle which were pastured before this fattening process may still be sold as "grass-fed".
- bombcar 4y ago
  Sometimes the packed wintercows are fed grass (those big bales rolled up are quite heavy - and expensive).
  - SEJeff 4y ago
    If you have enough land, many farmers will roll it for you for free, and give you enough to feed your livestock for the winter. We had 10 acres growing up and asked for 5-6 for winter for our small herd. They kept and sold the rest and we didn’t pay a dime.
  - citilife 4y ago
    > those big bales rolled up are quite heavy - and expensive Depends what you mean by "expensive". You can get one typically for $15 - $50 / bale. Here's a website: https://allhay.com/ https://allhay.com/ Prices are much higher due to the fertilizer and fuel prices. Around me It's going for $50-$55 for a 4x5ft bale (a few years ago it was $20 / bale). That said, those can weigh quite a bit, a 4x5ft bale will be 800 - 1200 lbs depending on moisture content and field composition. A cow will eat 20-40lbs of food a hay, depending on weather (they eat less in severe cold or heat). That equates to a single bale lasting one cow a approximately month or in reality, a heard of 30 cows needing about one bale a day. Using today's price of $50/bale, that's $1.67/day per cow to feed (a couple years ago it was much lower, say $0.5 - $0.75). Given it takes 2-3 years to maximize beef production AND assuming you only need feed half the year (grass fed cattle often graze), we're talking ~$750 to feed over the 2.5 year average (assuming 2.5 years @ 180 days). In terms of meat, you're probably going to get somewhere around 450lbs of use-able meat. You have to pay a butchering fee on that as well. That's probably $700. You'll also have transportation, fees, etc (let's just say $200/head). Total you're looking at a cost of $3.67/lb of processed beef. You can then resell for $5-6/lb right now to a reseller. This is a net of around $675. If you feed grain, you can effectively expect the same thing, but: 1. Grain fed will typically be cheaper per lb. 2. Grain will create a more tender meat (it's why people finish with grain) 3. Cows fed grain gain weight, so profit can be somewhat higher (often offset by organic nature of many grass fed cows) 4. Grain-fed tastes better to most people
    - HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
      > Total you're looking at a cost of $3.67/lb of processed beef. That's interesting. For a few years we used to buy a quarter beef from a retired farmer who was the father of a friend. It used to average out to $2.56/lb processed and picked up from the butcher shop. Granted, at this point he was retired and just doing it to keep busy, but that's quite a bit cheaper. I wonder if prices have gone up that much in the last few years or if it just costs less here in MN.
      - citilife 4y ago
        Since 2019 prices are up ~50%, so that tracks appropriately. Also depends on feed and transportation cost. For instance, if you grow your own hay you're probably looking at a lower cost for feed, etc.
- officialjunk 4y ago
  isn't the corn based diet unique to the United States, since corn is a subsidized crop?
  - solardev 4y ago
    It depends... some parts of Canada use corn, others use barley (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_feeding#Country-specific https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_feeding#Country-specifi...). In EU it's a mix: https://www.dairyherd.com/news/european-cows-eat-more-foreign-corn-global-glut-erodes-price https://www.dairyherd.com/news/european-cows-eat-more-foreig... https://www.beefmagazine.com/americancowman/beef-and-business/0513-europe-beef-production https://www.beefmagazine.com/americancowman/beef-and-busines... In general different countries will "finish" their cattle with different grains. Only a few places have the right conditions to have their beef be grass-fed through its whole lifecycle.
    - bpodgursky 4y ago
      I've heard stories of farmers dumping leftover Halloween candy for their dairy cattle during a hay shortage. Not ideal, but I think cows are pretty flexible when it comes to cheap calories. Edit: yea def happens https://money.cnn.com/2012/10/10/news/economy/farmers-cows-candy-feed/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2012/10/10/news/economy/farmers-cows-c...
  - colechristensen 4y ago
    Regardless of subsidies, corn is a very efficient calories per acre crop if the land and climate supports it, which is somewhat uncommon.
  - randomdata 4y ago
    Most crops are subsidized in the US. Corn is the largest crop thanks to it being relatively easy and efficient to grow.
- Gustomaximus 4y ago
  For accuracy, for winter that's really climate dependent. Plenty of geography supports year round outdoor cattle if not the majority. Often they will live outdoors for winter but require feed. This is likely to be majority hay with some supplemnt than feedlot type treatment. And not an expert but I believe some large operations will even truck cattle arond, so have summer pastures north and head south for winter type thing.
- chrisco255 4y ago
  They don't feed them corn. They feed them corn silage: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silage https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silage Silage is the whole plant (even parts not edible by humans), chopped up and fermented.
  - Tostino 4y ago
    I really hope they get to go out while blasted out of their minds.
- Andys 4y ago
  This doesn't happen in Australia. The cows have a pretty nice life around where I live.
jasonboyd 4y ago
I had a similar experience on that drive from SF to LA. I remember a UPS truck driving by me and the man inside wearing a face mask (this was pre COVID). I thought it was the weirdest thing. A few miles later though and you hit stench. It's hard to do it justice in a comment. Saying it's the foulest thing I've ever smelled really fails to capture it.
- puppycodes 4y ago
  Good ole Coalinga... That towns major exports include factory farming and prison... basically hell lol https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalinga,_California https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalinga,_California
  - CalRobert 4y ago
    Coaling Station A never fails to disappoint.
  - s0rce 4y ago
    I recommend Buttonwillow, good gas prices and you can eat a decent pususa outside while its 110F.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
User23 4y ago
> North of Bakersfield I encountered the most profound stink I’ve ever smelled while driving The Starbucks literally has an airlock and a biosafety tier positive pressure HVAC system to keep the reek out. It’s insane.
danans 4y ago
> Then I moved to California, and one day had occasion to drive from SF to LA. North of Bakersfield I encountered the most profound stink I’ve ever smelled while driving, and eventually I saw the source: industrial operations with enormous numbers of cattle in fenced pens shoulder to shoulder so they could hardly move. Those feedlots are all over the country, the largest being in Colorado, Texas and Kansas: https://r-calfusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/160125-Top-30-Cattle-Feeders.pdf https://r-calfusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/160125-Top-... The one you saw in Coalinga is 19th on the list. Also in California, you can find beef and dairy cattle roaming freely among the rolling coastal hills that never end up in a a feedlot like that, but you can bet that their meat and dairy isn't cheap. Industrial meat production is a nightmare, but when push comes to shove, few seem to be OK paying $30 for a burger.
- dredmorbius 4y ago
  Dodge City, KS, is ... quite remarkable. It can be smelled well over 10 miles away. I've not had the pleasure of travelling near the Texas CAFOs.
- b5n 4y ago
  'freely' is being a bit generous, they're all destined for the slaughterhouse or glue factory. Dairy cows are routinely bred to keep them producing milk and their calves taken away for other purposes such as veal.
  - danans 4y ago
    > 'freely' is being a bit generous, they're all destined for the slaughterhouse or glue factory. If it wasn't clear from context, I was comparing their freedom to that of the cattle in feedlots, not to Wildebeest or Bison.
importantbrian 4y ago
I had a similar experience. Grew up in a really rural area with family who raised cattle. Spent a lot of time on my Grandfather's farm. But my other grandparents lived in rural California. Driving past all the factory dairy farms was pretty shocking.
elzbardico 4y ago
This is only sustainable because of subsidies and non-tariff barriers. Take them away and most intensive cattle operations in the first world wouldn't be able to survive.
chrisco255 4y ago
You saw a feed lot? They're only used as temporary holding pens for the last 3 months of a cows life. Most cows spend most of their time eating grass in pasture.

dzdt 4y ago

Even in pastureland country, cattle typically spend winters packed together in feedlots and are fattened in feedlots on a largely corn-based diet before slaughter. Depending on who is doing the labelling, cattle which were pastured before this fattening process may still be sold as "grass-fed".

bombcar 4y ago
Sometimes the packed wintercows are fed grass (those big bales rolled up are quite heavy - and expensive).
- SEJeff 4y ago
  If you have enough land, many farmers will roll it for you for free, and give you enough to feed your livestock for the winter. We had 10 acres growing up and asked for 5-6 for winter for our small herd. They kept and sold the rest and we didn’t pay a dime.
- citilife 4y ago
  > those big bales rolled up are quite heavy - and expensive Depends what you mean by "expensive". You can get one typically for $15 - $50 / bale. Here's a website: https://allhay.com/ https://allhay.com/ Prices are much higher due to the fertilizer and fuel prices. Around me It's going for $50-$55 for a 4x5ft bale (a few years ago it was $20 / bale). That said, those can weigh quite a bit, a 4x5ft bale will be 800 - 1200 lbs depending on moisture content and field composition. A cow will eat 20-40lbs of food a hay, depending on weather (they eat less in severe cold or heat). That equates to a single bale lasting one cow a approximately month or in reality, a heard of 30 cows needing about one bale a day. Using today's price of $50/bale, that's $1.67/day per cow to feed (a couple years ago it was much lower, say $0.5 - $0.75). Given it takes 2-3 years to maximize beef production AND assuming you only need feed half the year (grass fed cattle often graze), we're talking ~$750 to feed over the 2.5 year average (assuming 2.5 years @ 180 days). In terms of meat, you're probably going to get somewhere around 450lbs of use-able meat. You have to pay a butchering fee on that as well. That's probably $700. You'll also have transportation, fees, etc (let's just say $200/head). Total you're looking at a cost of $3.67/lb of processed beef. You can then resell for $5-6/lb right now to a reseller. This is a net of around $675. If you feed grain, you can effectively expect the same thing, but: 1. Grain fed will typically be cheaper per lb. 2. Grain will create a more tender meat (it's why people finish with grain) 3. Cows fed grain gain weight, so profit can be somewhat higher (often offset by organic nature of many grass fed cows) 4. Grain-fed tastes better to most people
  - HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
    > Total you're looking at a cost of $3.67/lb of processed beef. That's interesting. For a few years we used to buy a quarter beef from a retired farmer who was the father of a friend. It used to average out to $2.56/lb processed and picked up from the butcher shop. Granted, at this point he was retired and just doing it to keep busy, but that's quite a bit cheaper. I wonder if prices have gone up that much in the last few years or if it just costs less here in MN.
    - citilife 4y ago
      Since 2019 prices are up ~50%, so that tracks appropriately. Also depends on feed and transportation cost. For instance, if you grow your own hay you're probably looking at a lower cost for feed, etc.
officialjunk 4y ago
isn't the corn based diet unique to the United States, since corn is a subsidized crop?
- solardev 4y ago
  It depends... some parts of Canada use corn, others use barley (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_feeding#Country-specific https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_feeding#Country-specifi...). In EU it's a mix: https://www.dairyherd.com/news/european-cows-eat-more-foreign-corn-global-glut-erodes-price https://www.dairyherd.com/news/european-cows-eat-more-foreig... https://www.beefmagazine.com/americancowman/beef-and-business/0513-europe-beef-production https://www.beefmagazine.com/americancowman/beef-and-busines... In general different countries will "finish" their cattle with different grains. Only a few places have the right conditions to have their beef be grass-fed through its whole lifecycle.
  - bpodgursky 4y ago
    I've heard stories of farmers dumping leftover Halloween candy for their dairy cattle during a hay shortage. Not ideal, but I think cows are pretty flexible when it comes to cheap calories. Edit: yea def happens https://money.cnn.com/2012/10/10/news/economy/farmers-cows-candy-feed/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2012/10/10/news/economy/farmers-cows-c...
- colechristensen 4y ago
  Regardless of subsidies, corn is a very efficient calories per acre crop if the land and climate supports it, which is somewhat uncommon.
- randomdata 4y ago
  Most crops are subsidized in the US. Corn is the largest crop thanks to it being relatively easy and efficient to grow.
Gustomaximus 4y ago
For accuracy, for winter that's really climate dependent. Plenty of geography supports year round outdoor cattle if not the majority. Often they will live outdoors for winter but require feed. This is likely to be majority hay with some supplemnt than feedlot type treatment. And not an expert but I believe some large operations will even truck cattle arond, so have summer pastures north and head south for winter type thing.
chrisco255 4y ago
They don't feed them corn. They feed them corn silage: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silage https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silage Silage is the whole plant (even parts not edible by humans), chopped up and fermented.
- Tostino 4y ago
  I really hope they get to go out while blasted out of their minds.
Andys 4y ago
This doesn't happen in Australia. The cows have a pretty nice life around where I live.

jasonboyd 4y ago

I had a similar experience on that drive from SF to LA. I remember a UPS truck driving by me and the man inside wearing a face mask (this was pre COVID). I thought it was the weirdest thing. A few miles later though and you hit stench. It's hard to do it justice in a comment. Saying it's the foulest thing I've ever smelled really fails to capture it.

puppycodes 4y ago
Good ole Coalinga... That towns major exports include factory farming and prison... basically hell lol https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalinga,_California https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalinga,_California
- CalRobert 4y ago
  Coaling Station A never fails to disappoint.
- s0rce 4y ago
  I recommend Buttonwillow, good gas prices and you can eat a decent pususa outside while its 110F.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

User23 4y ago

> North of Bakersfield I encountered the most profound stink I’ve ever smelled while driving The Starbucks literally has an airlock and a biosafety tier positive pressure HVAC system to keep the reek out. It’s insane.

danans 4y ago

> Then I moved to California, and one day had occasion to drive from SF to LA. North of Bakersfield I encountered the most profound stink I’ve ever smelled while driving, and eventually I saw the source: industrial operations with enormous numbers of cattle in fenced pens shoulder to shoulder so they could hardly move. Those feedlots are all over the country, the largest being in Colorado, Texas and Kansas: https://r-calfusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/160125-Top-30-Cattle-Feeders.pdf https://r-calfusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/160125-Top-... The one you saw in Coalinga is 19th on the list. Also in California, you can find beef and dairy cattle roaming freely among the rolling coastal hills that never end up in a a feedlot like that, but you can bet that their meat and dairy isn't cheap. Industrial meat production is a nightmare, but when push comes to shove, few seem to be OK paying $30 for a burger.

dredmorbius 4y ago
Dodge City, KS, is ... quite remarkable. It can be smelled well over 10 miles away. I've not had the pleasure of travelling near the Texas CAFOs.
b5n 4y ago
'freely' is being a bit generous, they're all destined for the slaughterhouse or glue factory. Dairy cows are routinely bred to keep them producing milk and their calves taken away for other purposes such as veal.
- danans 4y ago
  > 'freely' is being a bit generous, they're all destined for the slaughterhouse or glue factory. If it wasn't clear from context, I was comparing their freedom to that of the cattle in feedlots, not to Wildebeest or Bison.

importantbrian 4y ago

I had a similar experience. Grew up in a really rural area with family who raised cattle. Spent a lot of time on my Grandfather's farm. But my other grandparents lived in rural California. Driving past all the factory dairy farms was pretty shocking.

elzbardico 4y ago

This is only sustainable because of subsidies and non-tariff barriers. Take them away and most intensive cattle operations in the first world wouldn't be able to survive.

chrisco255 4y ago

You saw a feed lot? They're only used as temporary holding pens for the last 3 months of a cows life. Most cows spend most of their time eating grass in pasture.