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I live in Canada and recently invested a small amount in a startup via AngelList RUV. There were two funding options: (1) wire transfer, (2) transfer USDC via E

• fabian2k 4y ago
  There are probably large differences between countries here, but for me a wire transfer would clearly be the cheaper and easier option. They don't cost anything in fees. Speed is not that great, but usually good enough. Another option that is often very convenient is the "Lastschrift", I can simply grant a company permission to withdraw money from my account. The protections for the customer are very strong with this, I can revert any withdrawal without any reason, so this is essentially no risk for me.
• pavlov 4y ago
  Wire transfers in North America are literally 40 years behind the evolution of bank transfers in EU and UK. Sending money in Europe is free and increasingly often instantaneous 24/7. It will be very difficult for crypto to reach the level of convenience available on unified infrastructure created through sensible regulation. Lacking that, maybe Americans will have to keep settling for all these clunky, incompatible intermediated patchwork solutions like Zelle and Venmo and USDC-on-Ethereum and whatever.
  • xur17 4y ago
    > Sending money in Europe is free and increasingly often instantaneous 24/7. It will be very difficult for crypto to reach the level of convenience available on unified infrastructure created through sensible regulation. Lacking that, maybe Americans will have to keep settling for all these clunky, incompatible intermediated patchwork solutions like Zelle and Venmo and USDC-on-Ethereum and whatever. While true, I do think there is value in a permissionless protocol that anyone can plug into like this. Anyone in the world can send USDC to someone else (and any bank can integrate with this). The same can't be said for banking systems.
    • closewith 4y ago
      While there is value in the avoidance of Anti-Money Laundering and Know Your Customer regulations, it's also not a feature that bodes well for the future lawfulness of the ecosystem.
  • axg11 4y ago
    That's the point! Locally, there are great options almost everywhere. In Canada, I can e-transfer (Interac) anyone and the transfer is ~instant. Across borders the solutions are much worse. Crypto is the only payment rail that can realistically reach _everywhere_.
    • peoplefromibiza 4y ago
      more than 350 billion/year travel from US to Europe as payments for exported goods. I think it already works... locally in EU means SEPA is available in 36 countries (includes some non-euro area and non-EU countries) and to more than 500 million people.
    • quonn 4y ago
      And how often is that needed? And how often does it not also involve other issues, such as violating money laundering rules or tariffs? Crypto is the only payment rail that is practically accepted nowhere (I cannot use it to pay 99,99% of the places I do business with).
  • dcolkitt 4y ago
    But that's the point, crypto is a coordination mechanism that in most cases serves as an alternative when you don't have effective and trustworthy centralized institutions. It's pretty clear that (in this case) European financial regulators did a good job coordinating an effective and efficient electronic money transmission system. But the whole world is not Sweden. Even in America, which is relatively first world with relatively decent institutions, our regulators failed to coordinate a decent electronic money transmission system. Now imagine being in Turkey or LatAm or Sri Lanka. (Or even just being in Europe and needing to interface with anywhere outside the European utopia.) Agree that decentralized protocols come with many inherent inefficiencies and frictions. But when institutions fail, the only alternative are decentralized protocols. In many ways I see the pro- vs. anti- crypto division coming down to how much people believe in institutions. Most crypto criticisms come down to an appeal to just focus on building better institutions rather than waste mountains of talent on overly complex decentralized protocols. "Instead of all this on-chain stablecoin nonsense, why don't we focus our efforts on electing better financial regulators, who can bring European like money transfers to North America and eventually the globe?" Whereas I think pro-crypto people (myself included), tend to think of any attempts to change public policy as /dev/null. Most of the world is saddled with horribly dysfunctional institutions, and it's not easy to fix. I have much more confidence in our ability to engineer solutions than mustering the necessary political and social coordination necessary to fix governments, policy, regulators and institutions.
    • FabHK 4y ago
      Good analysis, and you are right. I think purely technical attempts to solve current political/social problems are doomed, while better institutions can and have been built. Now, what makes you think that the regulators in well-run countries will continue to accept this inefficient and unregulated money alternative full of scams? Crypto currencies could be banned to quite an extent (mining, on/off ramps, maybe even the network traffic, which is unencrypted, if I am not mistaken.)
      • junofan 4y ago
        It’s banned in China AFAIK and people seem to use it there all the time.
  • FabHK 4y ago
    I think Paypal only got off the ground because the US banking system is so amazingly awful (compared to, say, continental Europe). Somewhat sad that it still seems to be the case.
  • kerng 4y ago
    Maybe it will be like with China and cedit card usage. China just skipped credit cards and does everything in phone. They were behind, now they are leading the pack. Countries embracing crypto could go similar route.
    • FalconSensei 4y ago
      another way to read that is that you are not able to get food if your phone dies
  • sdfhdhjdw3 4y ago
    Sending money in the UK is faster than it takes me to open the app on the phone to confirm it went thru.
  • dghlsakjg 4y ago
    He lives in Canada. Canadians don't live in the same country as Americans. Canadians don't have the same banks as Americans. Canadians can do money transfers instantly between any bank using e-transfer. He was talking about transferring money out of the Canadian network of banks to a foreign entity (guessing based on it being denominated in USD). As a European can you transfer money to, say, Vietnam without using clunky 40 year old technology like wires?
    • Commodore63 4y ago
      The settlement delay isn't there for technological reasons. People think they want instant! fast! until they lose their life savings because libertarian tech has no buffers.
      • anony23 4y ago
        I thought the settlement delay was so that the banks can squeeze out 72 more hours of interest.
        • imtringued 4y ago
          No it is there for netting and clearing.
    • spaceman_2020 4y ago
      International crypto transactions will likely be heavily regulated soon enough - the money laundering risk is too high. Not to mention that money send to a crypto wallet also needs to be cashed out locally, which takes both fees and time. And god forbid your crypto exchange goes bankrupt or decide to pause withdrawals
      • Ekaros 4y ago
        And the fact you are not moving insured money, but monopol money... Fiat really have quite many upsides when used with banks.
    • 4y ago
  • sidpatil 4y ago
    > Lacking that, maybe Americans will have to keep settling for all these clunky, incompatible intermediated patchwork solutions like Zelle and Venmo and USDC-on-Ethereum and whatever. FedNow is supposed to launch in 2023. https://www.frbservices.org/financial-services/fednow/about.html https://www.frbservices.org/financial-services/fednow/about....
  • ciupicri 4y ago
    We must have different definitions of Europe because I live in Romania (which has been a member of the European Union since 2007) and yet even national transfers are not instantaneous if you're doing them in the evening, not to mention the weekend. And don't get me started with transfers to other European countries. I also think you meant cheap, not free. By the way I find it funny that some banks tax the receiver, so in order to get money, you have to lose money :-)
    • bearmode 4y ago
      In the UK they're still usually instantenous in the evening, and also completely free.
      • ciupicri 4y ago
        Including for companies?
        • 7steps2much 4y ago
          Can't speak for the UK, but at least in Austria a company bank account is no different from a personal bank account, at least as far as technology is concerned. That said, I know at least a couple of (admittedly rather large/corporate) companies that explicitly opted out of instant transfers for some reason.
          • ciupicri 4y ago
            I can't comment on technologies, but the user interface for a business user might be different from that for a home user. As for fees, they tend to lure individuals with free this, free that, while taking kidneys and other organs from businesses.
    • peoplefromibiza 4y ago
      SEPA is available in Romania.
• aNoob7000 4y ago
  It is easier for me to call my bank and initiate a wire transfer than it is to transfer money via USDC. I think the assumption a lot of people in crypto make is that everyone has a crypto account/wallet setup.
  • axg11 4y ago
    Do you live in North America? I would challenge anyone in Canada/US that claims it's easier to initiate a wire transfer (with zero ability to track progress) vs. send USDC to an ETH address.
    • gaspard234 4y ago
      I'll take you up on that challenge. I can open open up my Wells Fargo app and initiate a wire transfer within 5 minutes. In fact, I sent $1000 to a home contractors bank account earlier this week for no fee. And yes, WF sent me email updates of the status. I will concede it took 1 business day though. How do I send USDC within 5 mins? I would have to 1) Open an account on a crypto exchange app 2) Go through the KYC process and hookup the same wells fargo account to buy USDC. 3) Purchase USDC, usually while paying a fee. And then still wait the day for the funds to be sent from WF to the exchange. 4) Send USDC to address, while also paying a fee. There is a reason international remittances haven't worked as a use case, for ex Coinbase just closed down that entire project. How would immigrants who get paid in Cash buy USDC and how would their family in Mexico or El Salvador be able to convert that USDC into local spendable currency. I hate western union but it works better than any crypto money sending service.
      • anony23 4y ago
        If you count the time for opening an exchange account and doing kyc, you should do the same when you talk about your bank. You only have to open the exchange account once just like you do for your bank. After that it's definitely cheaper and faster to send crypto. Whether or not it's as secure depends on what bank we are comparing to.
        • 4y ago
• nailer 4y ago
  Ethereum’s famously expensive and slow though.
  • christophilus 4y ago
    And yet it was faster / cheaper / easier for the OP vs the traditional banking mechanisms. That says more about the US and Canadian banks than anything else.
    • sebastiansm 4y ago
      How did it happen? A country that generates so much innovation and lacks quality in his basics systems.
    • nailer 4y ago
      > I live in Canada and recently invested a small amount in a startup via AngelList RUV. There were two funding options: (1) wire transfer, (2) transfer USDC via Ethereum network. One of these options is cheaper, faster, and more flexible than the other. Oh I didn't know that's what the answer was. Having used both (and living in Europe), I'd thought the 'cheaper, faster' option OP mentioned was a modern wire transfer service.
  • dcolkitt 4y ago
    Just raised a funding round, and about half the investors used USDC and half used wire transfers. On "famously expensive and slow" Ethereum, the USDC transfers took 15 seconds and cost under $2. Oh and even better, I was able to just use a simple human readable [X].eth address, instead of an incomprehensible string of routing number digits.
    • nailer 4y ago
      Gas is pretty cheap right now as there's little network activity due to crypto winter - people are holding their crypto. And yes 15 seconds is slow. Indeed, a human readable address is nice if you trust whoever gave it to you (ENS is naming not identity, someone else can register dcolkitt.eth or dcolkit.eth or dcollkit.eth if they like). There's some good bits and some bad bits. Not advocating for or against crypto.
• unicornmama 4y ago
  In Switzerland it costs me zero to transfer CHF.
  • axg11 4y ago
    With one single integration, AngelList can receive USDC from anyone, anywhere in the world. It doesn't matter if you can transfer CHF very cheaply locally.
    • unicornmama 4y ago
      I've on/off ramped CHF to USDC. It's a pain in the ass. And you lose 1% in process. Certainly not easier than a CHF->USD wire.
    • acdha 4y ago
      Kind of like how having a bank account allows you to receive wire transfers from anyone? Anything will sound simple if you leave out most of the hard parts like meeting legal requirements, fraud protection, etc. (better hope the reason USDC is cagey about their assets isn’t because they’re hiding something) It’s true that US banks are slower at transfers but most people don’t hit that often enough to balance out the extra cost and risk, and if they started losing significant amounts of business it’s a lot easier to improve there than it is to duct-tape performance, privacy, or fraud protection onto a blockchain.
      • Jetrel 4y ago
        Yeah. I get pretty tilted when people complain about the banking system, because most of the "problems" they're complaining about are features. A really good metaphor is a programmer complaining about being forced to use a version control system, and wishing they could just dispense with all this pointless waste of time. "All this thing does is cause me trouble" — well, yeah, because you've never experienced the problems it utterly eradicated. It's a Chesterton's fence issue at best. At worst, it's wolves repealing the laws that prohibit eating sheep.
      • kareemsabri 4y ago
• jjoonathan 4y ago
  It's difficult to comprehend just how bad traditional finance is at this unless you regularly experience it. No, I'm not talking about chafing under regulations against doing crime -- the number of unforced idiotic bureaucratic errors is absolutely off the charts, in addition to being very slow and very expensive.
• jqpabc123 4y ago
  If you zoom into the right applications, there are use cases that are gaining product market fit. A CBDC will supplant most use cases for crypto simply by being a practical currency. What will be left is pretty much what you have now --- criminal activity, anarchist cult and naive speculation.
• golergka 4y ago
  And even in countries with more useful wire transfer, you wouldn't buy drugs with them.
• RandomWorker 4y ago
  I haven’t used wire transfers in 10 years. Costs were around $30 for each $1000 at the time. I use wise.com, and it’s less than $3 per $1000. It’s gotten cheaper as well over time I’ve used the service. Not sure if they use crypto in the background but they certainly don’t advertise it.
• Commodore63 4y ago
  It's the latter, right? I can wire USD hundreds of thousands from my bank for $25, and the transaction takes place within an hour or two.
• spaceman_2020 4y ago
  International transfers might be different but for domestic transfers, most countries outside of the west have very robust systems already. India’s UPI puts any crypto alternative to shame with the speed, transaction volume, fees and ease of use. Sending someone USDC for international payments is admittedly much easier, but you’re likely going to run into expensive regulation on that front since it carries too much money laundering risk
  • bcrl 4y ago
    Within Canada Interac e-Transfer is fast and easy (except when Rogers is down). Takes a few seconds to go from one bank via email, click on the link and have it in another bank.
• bcrl 4y ago
  Weird, I now find transferring money between accounts at different banking institutions is incredibly easy. My credit union provides me with free access to the services of EFT Canada via which I can move money around any canadian banks with $0 in fees. If I have to move internationally, I go via https://oanda.paydirect.io/ https://oanda.paydirect.io/ -- Oanda started out as a currency trading platform. Being able to send a wire transfer in USD to China from my couch in 5 minutes with very little in fees is pretty awesome. Previously it took 2 hours of driving into the city to get to the nearest branch of my credit union plus another hour of waiting for the teller to figure out the wire transfer. And all this has happened without any cryptocurrencies involved. Look around for modern financial services, as they do exist!
• otikik 4y ago
  I honestly was expecting you to say that the bank transfer was the cheaper, faster, option. It is here in Europe. It involves: login to my bank app, enter name, account and amount, send, and sometimes adding 1 or 2 verification codes depending on the bank. It’s really convenient.
• boh 4y ago
  It's not kicking in. The utility was always there and very few people/institutions have any interest in using it. Whatever fee/time costs are inherent in the current system are obviously worth whatever security and regulatory oversight they offer. Enough stable coins have collapsed to remove whatever credibility the entire idea of a stable coin may have. You're going to be the edge case for a long time.