13 ms·
Your suspicion is correct. I've taught at several US universities, and it's an open secret that the administrative takes steps to manipulate numbers in order t
by hackyhacky 4y ago
Your suspicion is correct.
I've taught at several US universities, and it's an open secret that the administrative takes steps to manipulate numbers in order to secure better rankings.
Typical example: a small, prestigious liberal arts college always has smaller class sizes in the fall semester than in the spring semester. Why? Because classes with less than 30 students are ranked higher by US News, but they only take into consideration the fall semester. No one cares about class sizes in the spring.
- CogitoCogito 4y ago> Because classes with less than 30 students are ranked higher by US News, but they only take into consideration the fall semester. No one cares about class sizes in the spring. What a bizarre and totally unnecessary restriction.
- genewitch 4y agoParents helping/guiding their near-adult children in the final spring of highschool to apply at or choose universities, where they would start university that same fall seem to be the target audience, here. Fall is when "most" incoming freshmen will start.
- unosama 4y agoYou add a simple and reasonable (until it gets abused) assumption to your model which allows a lesser data collection burden on thousands of universities. I wouldn't call it a restriction.
- thaumasiotes 4y ago> which allows a lesser data collection burden on thousands of universities. How's it supposed to do that? Universities all already collect the data on enrollment for every class they offer.
- fshbbdssbbgdd 4y agoSpoken like a software engineer! Now imagine every form is being filled out manually by an administrator with a calculator.
- pc86 4y agoBut it's not.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- mwint 4y agoMaybe the forms should be made too complex to be filled with a calculator, to encourage doing things the right way…
- geraldwhen 4y agoWouldn’t work. Entire state budgets are accounted for by spreadsheets without formulas, emailed between people in an office with no revision control. A few years ago when 50 million went missing, I wasn’t surprised. I’d seen the budgeting process, and it was worse than you could possibly imagine. There was an attempt to go the software route, but a nepotism deal left the budgeting department with a worse system than manual spreadsheet entry.
- shreyshnaccount 4y agolowest bidder took the 50mil. on a serious note tho, this is craziness. technical education and knowing how to code should be mandatory for these kinds of jobs.
- geraldwhen 4y agoMost of the budgeting department is highschool graduates with a few higher ups with accounting degrees. The pay is abysmal either way. You would make more money at an entry level software job anywhere.
- CogitoCogito 4y agoI don't agree that there's a good argument for ignoring the class sizes for half the year to decrease data collection burden. The data they're ignoring is of utmost importance to the statistic (well to the statistic as basically everyone will understand it since no one reads "average class size" and thinks "average class size of only half the classes"). In any case, the quality of the argument doesn't really matter. If the number is being gamed so trivially and yet US News continues to ignore spring classes, then the restriction has gone from bizarre and unnecessary to actively malicious. US News is basically colluding with the universities to engage in fraud.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- bogota 4y agoGreat to know many peoples graduations were delayed so someone could game some numbers
- tenpies 4y agoWhat are they going to do? Transfer out and have only half their credits recognized therefore pushing them back 4 semesters instead of the 1? It's a fantastically anti-consumer market they've managed to create.
- abakker 4y agoGotta pay for another semester then, right?
- zerocrates 4y agoI think they mean the size of individual classes, so they're paying for more sections/instructors/instruction time in the ranking-relevant periods. Though shrinking the admit size is another well worn tactic, as it's the easiest way to increase how "selective" you are which is another major ranking element, plus it helps you more cheaply achieve smaller average class sizes, though of course you're forgoing some revenue to get there.
- btilly 4y agoEncouraging people to apply is also a common tactic. You can't reject them if they don't apply!
- nostromo 4y agoGaming and manipulation should absolutely be addressed, but it seems Columbia was just straight up lying about their numbers, not gaming them.
- lumost 4y agoWhy is small class size a good thing? Anecdotally, you get better class material and TA staff in larger lectures. Why aren't Universities able to innovate here?
- bbor 4y agoMany courses rely on discussion!
- aquova 4y agoFewer students per teacher is widely seen as a positive thing. A greater percentage of the professor's time and attention can be given to any one student. I've definitely experienced this myself, it's easy to feel like just a number when you're in a large lecture hall of hundreds versus a small classroom of a few dozen.
- bachmeier 4y agoI already said this elsewhere, but I do want to reply to this comment, because it demonstrates a common mistake that may not be clear from my other comment. If you have a given teacher, in a given classroom, with a given amount of TA help, blah blah, so that all else is equal, and then you reduce the class size, the students will do better. The problem is that all else is far from equal in the data used in these rankings. Instructor quality drops off rapidly as you have more sections. TA help falls. The classroom may no longer be appropriate for the class, etc. The rankings are not able to capture the effect you're talking about.
- ghaff 4y agoFor liberal arts? It's probably a pretty interactive format and smaller interactive classes are better than large classes that are more broadcast. (Often. I've also had great lecturers in the humanities.) But mostly don't look at many liberal arts classes (or case study, etc.) through the lens of an engineering lecture.
- poulsbohemian 4y ago>Anecdotally, you get better class material and TA staff in larger lectures. Where is this anecdote coming from? A billion years ago when I studied at a small liberal arts college with small class sizes, professors were keen to share with us exactly why they were teaching from particular texts or why they had selected certain materials to make it clear that while the class wasn't being taught by that famous guy from MIT, it was still his book and materials we were using. I knew all my professors by first name, knew where many of them lived, had access to them anytime it was needed, and that's directly counter to my partner's experience at a large university.
- greymalik 4y agoGoodhardt’s law in action.
- adolph 4y agoGoodhart's Law The key problem of using a measure as a metric is sometimes referred to as Goodhart’s law. The law is based on a 1975 paper on economic regulation, and is typically paraphrased as “When a measure becomes a metric, it ceases to be a good measure.” When managing a system, this problem is critical, but is deeper than it at first seems, as I’ll argue. https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2016/06/09/goodharts-law-and-why-measurement-is-hard/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2016/06/09/goodharts-law-and-why-...
- dccoolgai 4y agoCtrl+f for "Goodhar" right away to see who called it first +1
- pishpash 4y agoWhat's that adage? Every metric that becomes an optimization target ...
- eduction 4y agoI attended a well known and regarded public university. I was admitted for spring, and for the preceding fall entered a program where I could live in a regular university dorm and take classes for full credit taught at the same university’s extension, but special extension classes just for this program (so all spring admit students). Then you stay in the dorm in spring as you become a “regular” student. I always suspected it was a way to fudge numbers, but at the same time I knew I was genuinely on the bubble of being admitted so I took the opportunity gladly. (My memory is that the other spring admits were, like me, from racial groups considered “over represented” so they may have been trying to affect diversity numbers too.)
- smugma 4y agoBerkeley has been doing this for at least 35 years.
- tobinfricke 4y agoYup, I got into Berkeley EECS this way back in the late 20th century. I'd guess it's legitimate load-balancing rather than an attempt to game the ratings. I assumed this meant that my application was borderline and I was grateful to be able to sneak in. The Extension program is a nice transition to college too.
- etempleton 4y agoLoad balancing is the most likely reason. At any given college a lot of first year students decide college isn't for them or they get home sick and drop out within the first semester. After that initial period student population of the class is much more stable.
- bredren 4y agoI TA'd in the attendance office at my high school back in the day. The city's tracking of student attendance only lasted a portion of the year or a portion of each quarter. During those times, much more effort went into calling the homes of missing students and finding out why they were not showing up to class. I remember asking about why all the calls were happening or not happening and it was sort of quietly explained by the staffer: measurement of attendance affected how the school was being evaluated by the district. Presumably, budget was hooked to it in some way. I didn't make any waves about it because "working" in this office was super powerful and the staffer always brought in cookies for us. Amazing gig.
- smugma 4y agoIn California, schools get paid on daily attendance. I believe it would be considered fraud to not take daily attendance. They suspended this during the heart of the pandemic but it came back last fall. Because daily attendance is down relative to pre pandemic, Public schools are facing a significant revenue gap (5-10% is typical)
- LeifCarrotson 4y agoIn contrast, Michigan Public K-12 schools take attendance on specified Count Days to account for the number of students they serve to determine state funding. Fall count day is the 1st Wednesday in October and represents 90% of state funding. Spring count day is the 2nd Wednesday in February and represents 10% of state funding. As you might imagine, getting students in school on these days is a Big Deal. Teachers take attendance on other days for internal use, but Count Day is special and you must not be absent!
- MaysonL 4y agoHow often have Count Days been snow days?
- LeifCarrotson 4y agoIt's almost never a snow day in early October, I only remember one February count day + snow day. They count on the next day: > If instruction is cancelled on count day due to conditions not within the control of school authorities, with the approval of the State Superintendent, the affected instructional programs must use the immediately following day on which the district resumes session for count purposes per the rules at: https://www.michigan.gov/-/media/Project/Websites/mde/Year/2019/02/14/Student_Count_Information.pdf?rev=c14d2498c4b34d2cb519fb9e7acc1bdc https://www.michigan.gov/-/media/Project/Websites/mde/Year/2... I do recall my cousins at a poor rural school in Barry county having a couple snow days on Count Wednesday, and then subsequently calling one on Thursday when it wasn't really required and another on Friday where it really wasn't required, so that counts were as high as possible on Monday. Their snow days were much more frequent due to bad roads and bad road maintenance, and their state funding was much more important compared to my wealthy district.
- Fomite 4y agoSimilarly, at a large land grant university, we talk a lot about improving our rankings, but acknowledge that one of the major metrics (% of students not accepted) is something that's contrary to our mission. It was an open secret when I was in Boston that Harvard actively encourages people to "give it a shot" when they know full well they're not getting in to boost that metric.
- joe5150 4y ago"Recruit to deny" [1] has been getting more attention but still not enough. 1: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/29/us/harvard-admissions-recruit-letter.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/29/us/harvard-admissions-rec...
- KMag 4y agoMichigan also seemed to waitlist me and several of the people I knew at MIT. If they know they're the backup school, and they think you're going to get into your first choice, it hurts their acceptance rate to accept you outright. Though, maybe it's just confirmation bias and ego. Maybe there was something in my application that gave Michigan pause but seemed fine to MIT. At that time, Michigan did ask which other schools to which you were applying. I'm not sure if that's still the case.