7 ms·

If platform licensing arrangements don’t protect customers from losing access to purchases, they should be forced to advertise them as rentals or leases and not

by bnj 4y ago

If platform licensing arrangements don’t protect customers from losing access to purchases, they should be forced to advertise them as rentals or leases and not something the consumer is buying.

Shadonototra 4y ago
France tried https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2019-09-19-french-court-rules-countrys-steam-users-can-resell-their-games https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2019-09-19-french-cou... Then steam said you don't own the games they are selling to you So you buy games that you don't really own with a 30% tax on the developer's paycheck on top of his local taxes, thanks Valve!
- convolvatron 4y ago
  its really puzzling how a technology so perfect for lowering cost of entry and promoting disintermediation has done the exact opposite.
  - tuxie_ 4y ago
    The tech did its part, the costs are lower, just that the margins of profit are much bigger now.
  - bobthepanda 4y ago
    If anything it promotes centralization. Steam is a one stop shop for buying games that you can access globally, for the most part. Before if you wanted to buy games you had to show up in person, so competition between corporations and mom and pops was limited to what a corporation was willing to spend on capex and staff for a new store. The internet destroyed that need and so now the costs of corporations to compete with more efficient services due to economies of scale is very low.
  - j_4 4y ago
    I don't get it. Steam has a near-zero cost of entry and provides massive disintermediation. I'm a small indie dev and they gave me immense value. I'd never be able to make a living with this otherwise. I'd love if they lowered their cut but as things are, no one even seems to be trying to seriously compete with them. All consoles and all other PC distribution platforms seem hell bent on hand curation through human intermediaries, which often comes down to rubbing elbows with the right people / impressing arbiters rather than just letting customers judge. Even itch.io does this for the promotion / discoverability part. Mobile has a slew of its own problems but gets this basic thing right, too.
    - fsckboy 4y ago
      > Steam ... provides massive disintermediation. I'm a small indie dev and they gave me immense value. the value they provide you is by being a intermediary between you and your customers; it's pure intermediation, there's no disintermediation.
      - j_4 4y ago
        There's enormous disintermediation compared to what it replaced, which is publisher deals with many more hands taking a slice along the way. It's not a direct B2C relation, but it's certainly not "the exact opposite" like GP reply stated.
- scythe 4y ago
  That's not how it went down. The EU overruled the French law. Valve's argument was rejected by French courts and then upheld by the European courts. >"This French ruling flies in the face of established EU law which recognises the need to protect digital downloads from the ease of reproduction allowed by the Internet," said CEO Simon Little in a statement.
- eikenberry 4y ago
  Valve is obviously right. You don't own any games sold to you. You don't own any commercial, proprietary software sold to you. On only have ever been a license holder. You own that license but are restricted by the license. IE. the same thing that keeps from from making copies and selling them is used to let them shut down the required servers whenever it stops being profitable. If you don't like this then stop using proprietary software.
  - e12e 4y ago
    Interesting. Do you view software in your car the same way? If not, how are they different?
    - eikenberry 4y ago
      Nope. They are the same in this regard. You don't own it. Not as obvious with most cars today but it is starting to become so with some new cars coming with software subscriptions. Though really if you think about what it takes to repair a car you already see that you don't own it. It takes tools that the manufacturer sells to interact with the software, and no specs/documents on how that works either. Black boxes all the way down.
      - chii 4y ago
        which is why the right-to-repair laws are so crucial. may be there should also be some right-to-own software laws.
        eikenberry 4y ago
        100%
  - bmn__ 4y ago
    > You don't own any games sold to you. False. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25371427 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25371427 > You don't own any commercial, proprietary software sold to you. I do own the commodity good (here: copy of the game) that I bought.
- jquery 4y ago
  France succeeded but the corporate stooges higher up in the EU overturned it on appeal.
- Natsu 4y ago
  I think that if they plan to sunset the game, that needs to be advertised from the start, or the customers should have the right of a refund. And then they can plan for that by unlocking the games when they would sunset them.
- legalcorrection 4y ago
  No, France tried to require the right to resell. That’s not the exact same thing as just requiring that old DRM has to degrade gracefully. I doubt the EU would have overruled that.
giancarlostoro 4y ago
Or customers should start suing the devs / publishers until they re-release "as-is without warranty or DRM" versions of games. If you're no longer going to maintain it, give me the final usable build.
- chii 4y ago
  the subtle unsaid reason is often that the publisher wants users to migrate to a different/newer iteration of the game. They do this by killing the old version.
  - giancarlostoro 4y ago
    The only way I'm ever buying any Assasins Creed games or Ubisoft games moving forward is if they're available on GOG is the result of this for me.
bacchusracine 4y ago
>they should be forced to advertise them as rentals or leases and not something the consumer is buying. Very much this! And furthermore the prices need to be significantly lower as well. No one pays to rent or lease an automobile what they would pay to purchase it. No one pays to rent or lease an apartment what the sum total cost of the building is. If these companies want to pretend this is all just a rental then they need to accept no one will be willing to pay purchasing prices for those rentals.

by bnj 4y ago

If platform licensing arrangements don’t protect customers from losing access to purchases, they should be forced to advertise them as rentals or leases and not something the consumer is buying.

Shadonototra 4y ago

France tried https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2019-09-19-french-court-rules-countrys-steam-users-can-resell-their-games https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2019-09-19-french-cou... Then steam said you don't own the games they are selling to you So you buy games that you don't really own with a 30% tax on the developer's paycheck on top of his local taxes, thanks Valve!

convolvatron 4y ago
its really puzzling how a technology so perfect for lowering cost of entry and promoting disintermediation has done the exact opposite.
- tuxie_ 4y ago
  The tech did its part, the costs are lower, just that the margins of profit are much bigger now.
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  If anything it promotes centralization. Steam is a one stop shop for buying games that you can access globally, for the most part. Before if you wanted to buy games you had to show up in person, so competition between corporations and mom and pops was limited to what a corporation was willing to spend on capex and staff for a new store. The internet destroyed that need and so now the costs of corporations to compete with more efficient services due to economies of scale is very low.
- j_4 4y ago
  I don't get it. Steam has a near-zero cost of entry and provides massive disintermediation. I'm a small indie dev and they gave me immense value. I'd never be able to make a living with this otherwise. I'd love if they lowered their cut but as things are, no one even seems to be trying to seriously compete with them. All consoles and all other PC distribution platforms seem hell bent on hand curation through human intermediaries, which often comes down to rubbing elbows with the right people / impressing arbiters rather than just letting customers judge. Even itch.io does this for the promotion / discoverability part. Mobile has a slew of its own problems but gets this basic thing right, too.
  - fsckboy 4y ago
    > Steam ... provides massive disintermediation. I'm a small indie dev and they gave me immense value. the value they provide you is by being a intermediary between you and your customers; it's pure intermediation, there's no disintermediation.
    - j_4 4y ago
      There's enormous disintermediation compared to what it replaced, which is publisher deals with many more hands taking a slice along the way. It's not a direct B2C relation, but it's certainly not "the exact opposite" like GP reply stated.
scythe 4y ago
That's not how it went down. The EU overruled the French law. Valve's argument was rejected by French courts and then upheld by the European courts. >"This French ruling flies in the face of established EU law which recognises the need to protect digital downloads from the ease of reproduction allowed by the Internet," said CEO Simon Little in a statement.
eikenberry 4y ago
Valve is obviously right. You don't own any games sold to you. You don't own any commercial, proprietary software sold to you. On only have ever been a license holder. You own that license but are restricted by the license. IE. the same thing that keeps from from making copies and selling them is used to let them shut down the required servers whenever it stops being profitable. If you don't like this then stop using proprietary software.
- e12e 4y ago
  Interesting. Do you view software in your car the same way? If not, how are they different?
  - eikenberry 4y ago
    Nope. They are the same in this regard. You don't own it. Not as obvious with most cars today but it is starting to become so with some new cars coming with software subscriptions. Though really if you think about what it takes to repair a car you already see that you don't own it. It takes tools that the manufacturer sells to interact with the software, and no specs/documents on how that works either. Black boxes all the way down.
    - chii 4y ago
      which is why the right-to-repair laws are so crucial. may be there should also be some right-to-own software laws.
      - eikenberry 4y ago
        100%
- bmn__ 4y ago
  > You don't own any games sold to you. False. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25371427 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25371427 > You don't own any commercial, proprietary software sold to you. I do own the commodity good (here: copy of the game) that I bought.
jquery 4y ago
France succeeded but the corporate stooges higher up in the EU overturned it on appeal.
Natsu 4y ago
I think that if they plan to sunset the game, that needs to be advertised from the start, or the customers should have the right of a refund. And then they can plan for that by unlocking the games when they would sunset them.
legalcorrection 4y ago
No, France tried to require the right to resell. That’s not the exact same thing as just requiring that old DRM has to degrade gracefully. I doubt the EU would have overruled that.

giancarlostoro 4y ago

Or customers should start suing the devs / publishers until they re-release "as-is without warranty or DRM" versions of games. If you're no longer going to maintain it, give me the final usable build.

chii 4y ago
the subtle unsaid reason is often that the publisher wants users to migrate to a different/newer iteration of the game. They do this by killing the old version.
- giancarlostoro 4y ago
  The only way I'm ever buying any Assasins Creed games or Ubisoft games moving forward is if they're available on GOG is the result of this for me.

bacchusracine 4y ago

>they should be forced to advertise them as rentals or leases and not something the consumer is buying. Very much this! And furthermore the prices need to be significantly lower as well. No one pays to rent or lease an automobile what they would pay to purchase it. No one pays to rent or lease an apartment what the sum total cost of the building is. If these companies want to pretend this is all just a rental then they need to accept no one will be willing to pay purchasing prices for those rentals.