14 ms·

A new trade and liberal arts school: “College of St. Joseph the Worker”

176 points by jseliger 4y ago

slater 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
seibelj 4y ago
I think you could make a pretty inexpensive Computer Science non-profit that is unaccredited but issued its own degree. No one cares about accreditation anyway. It would take a wealthy person to put their name on it, and be a struggle to get the first cohort off the ground, but once you get solid lecturers and a good reputation it would be self-fulfilling. You only need cheap laptops and a single room for the whole cohort. Otherwise it's knowledge transfer. If you paid the lecturers above-average salary and outsourced everything else, you could probably do it for under $5 million a year, which for a rich tech person is peanuts.
- rchaud 4y ago
  > It would take a wealthy person to put their name on it, and be a struggle to get the first cohort off the ground, but once you get solid lecturers and a good reputation it would be self-fulfilling. Any real world examples of this? Besides the Thiel fund of course, which is a ideological vanity project.
  - seibelj 4y ago
    There is a new university called UATX that is trying https://www.uaustin.org/ https://www.uaustin.org/ But they seem to be going down the route of trying to get accredited. IMO no one cares about any of that except other academics, businesses only care about talent and intelligence.
    - whatshisface 4y ago
      Accreditation is meant to protect students (in the new model, customers) from scams. Would you, personally, go to a college that wasn't accredited?
      - seibelj 4y ago
        Yes - if a graduate can demonstrate they received a good education, then the reputation of the school will grow. Many rules for accreditation (like libraries with a certain number of books) make zero sense in 2022.
        whatshisface 4y ago
        Would you, as a student, rather grow the reputation of your non-accredited institution by demonstrating over time that you don't match the prevailing prejudices against it, or would you rather go to an accredited institution that people can see with a little research, is not a diploma mill?
      - mathgladiator 4y ago
        > Would you, personally, go to a college that wasn't accredited? If there was solid evidence of a pipeline towards big tech, then maybe? I went to K-State which is accredited and yet no big tech recruits from there. The only way I got into the big tech game was starting a company in the mid-west and having CTO on my resume.
        whatshisface 4y ago
        I've never seen solid evidence, that the public would be able to see, of a pipeline to big tech except at Stanford, and maybe Harvard, because that's what people talk about and put in movies. I am not saying there isn't a "pipeline" anywhere else, just that the pipeline has to be very big and obvious before a highschooler or a midwestern parent of a highschooler would know about it. If it was really true that nothing mattered except for quality, there'd hardly be a need for universities at all, because students could buy books and self-teach or hire tutors. Nonetheless, that is almost never done, because outward signs like accreditation matter a lot.
  - RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
    Vanderbilt, Yale, Stanford, Duke, Carnegie Mellon. Rich people have been putting their names on institutions of higher learning for some time.
    - daniel-cussen 4y ago
      Stanford had to do all kinds of shit to make its way up the rankings, the Termans in particular, just pulling all the stops on the way to number 1. It got $80,000 in WW2 when in contrast Caltech got $120,000,000. As Steve Blank put it, DoD (then Department of War) had no respect for Stanford engineering. They just plucked Terman put him in charge at Harvard. Harvard Radio Lab. It used to be bombers didn't get through, Terman changed that, after WW2, "the bomber will always get through." Then he plucked 8 guys from the Harvard Radio Lab, made them Stanford professors, and that's when Stanford started getting...a little bit of respect. It helped his best students became strong entrepreneurs like he wanted them to be, AND were generous--David Packard becoming Stanford's greatest benefactor in fact, in particular donating directly to the Stanford Endowment so the University could do whatever it thought was best--and having a long-lasting string of successes. This longevity was based on Stanford engineering graduates. There's other colleges named after whomever, anybody, and they don't go anywhere. There's a lot of cooperation required, a lot of people refusing to let each and every other one of them down.
- ThrowawayR2 4y ago
  > "No one cares about accreditation anyway." "... U.S. jurisdictions where the use of higher education credentials from diploma mills and unaccredited schools is explicitly illegal or legally restricted include Illinois, Indiana, Maine, Michigan, Missouri, Nevada, New Jersey, North Dakota, Oregon, South Dakota, Texas, Virginia, and Washington. Many other states are also considering restrictions on unaccredited degree use in order to help prevent fraud. ..." -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diploma_mills_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diploma_mills_in_the_United_St...
  - bencollier49 4y ago
    This sounds like moat-building. But what does "the use of higher education credentials from diploma mills and unaccredited schools" actually amount to? Listing them on a CV?
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      It can amount to financial fraud (or at least incompetence), shoddy engineering, adverse and inefficient selection for graduate and post-graduate studies, and so forth.
    - ThrowawayR2 4y ago
      You know, you could've just Googled a bit to find the relevant laws. For example, for Washington state: https://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.60.070 https://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.60.070 "... (2) A person is guilty of knowingly using a false academic credential if the person knowingly uses a false academic credential or falsely claims to have a credential issued by an institution of higher education that is accredited by an accrediting association recognized as such by rule of the student achievement council: (a) In a written or oral advertisement or other promotion of a business; or (b) With the intent to: (i) Obtain employment; (ii) Obtain a license or certificate to practice a trade, profession, or occupation; (iii) Obtain a promotion, compensation or other benefit, or an increase in compensation or other benefit, in employment or in the practice of a trade, profession, or occupation; (iv) Obtain admission to an educational program in this state; or (v) Gain a position in government with authority over another person, regardless of whether the person receives compensation for the position. ... (4) Issuing a false academic credential is a class C felony. (5) Knowingly using a false academic credential is a gross misdemeanor." Seems doubtful that it gets prosecuted much though.
- wildrhythms 4y ago
  Oh you got your degree from Omnicorp College? Sorry, at Megacorp we only accept degrees from Megacorp University (a subsidiary of the Walt Disney-Unilever School). No one cares about accreditation.
  - whatshisface 4y ago
    How does writing a one-sentence cyberpunk story say anything about who cares about accreditation?
  - pram 4y ago
    Costco degrees have pretty broad acceptance though.
    - _-david-_ 4y ago
      What is a Costco degree?
- nibbleshifter 4y ago
  > No one cares about accreditation anyway. Outside of HN and the SV bubble, accreditation really matters.
  - 8bitsrule 4y ago
    Back when I was a manual laborer, if you could pick up a hammer and hit the nail every time - or mixup a good batch of mud - or drive a skidder of logs to the landing - that was the interview and accreditation. College enabled me to talk fancier during that time.
    - watwut 4y ago
      You don't need trade school for hitting nail with hammer nor for digging holes. You don't need previous experience either. For those kind of jobs this is complete waste of money.
  - tolleydbg 4y ago
    Not in trades. These students will graduate with years of experience, taking the website explanation at face value. There isn't something akin to ABET, or even FE/PE exams for these skills, but if they can count their work experience while in school here, they can become licensed tradesmen in states with work and apprenticeship requirements.
    - mattkrause 4y ago
      Accreditation might matter for student loans, immigration, etc.
    - nibbleshifter 4y ago
      It becomes a massive issue in trades if you want to migrate to another country. Some countries are very stringent about accredited qualifications for certain trades.
  - SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
    I’m hiring for a Flutter and BLE job right now. Couldn’t possibly care less about accreditation and far from an HN-typical. We’re out there. Really doesn’t matter on the specific job, all I care is, can you do it, and will you be a distraction?
- chaosharmonic 4y ago
  An accredited CS degree program is actually one of FreeCodeCamp's long-term goals.[0] [0] https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/free-accredited-bachelors-degrees-in-computer-science-how-do-we-get-there/ https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/free-accredited-bachelors-...
- ModernMech 4y ago
  Our CS department just spent an entire year on our reaccreditation. It’s a huge pain in the ass and takes a ton of effort. But it’s one of the main thing parents ask about. People definitely care.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    Parents ask... do employers? I would guess not.
    - watwut 4y ago
      Parents are the ones who pay.
    - Nasrudith 4y ago
      Yes and no. Unaccredited are a red flag but proven abilities shows it was legitimate enough. Still makes it harder to get through the door with an unaccredited degree. Which is reason to care.
      - chrisseaton 4y ago
        > Still makes it harder to get through the door with an unaccredited degree. But who is checking? I’ve never asked myself if someone’s degree is accredited. I wouldn’t even know how to check if I cared.
        mattkrause 4y ago
        I'm pretty sure I've seen it on government job postings. In fact, many of the federal CS jobs require ABET-accredited degree programs, which is annoying because many of the better programs aren't (Stanford and CMU, for example). Accreditation may matter for immigration (some places give extra points to people with degrees), possibly student loans, and things like that.
        astura 4y ago
        Are you involved in hiring? Because I check the degree of every single resume I review, I have to. The other day I got a resume from a candidate who has a degree from Albany State University which I never heard of. So I pulled up their website and go to the "Accreditation" link and saw that it's accredited by the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools Commission on Colleges.
- jollybean 4y ago
  Accreditation is not necessary, but it matters. Also the reputation of the college, particularly in professional fields. For trade school, it probably does not matter at all.
the_only_law 4y ago
$15000 a year including room isn't bad, but I can still get similar education much cheaper at a nearby CC.
- wildrhythms 4y ago
  There's also the fact that a CC is accredited, so not only do you get a degree, but you also get credits that can be transferred to another college.
  - reaperducer 4y ago
    There's also the fact that a CC is accredited Doesn't the school have to open first, and then get accredited later? Or is it possible to be accredited from day one?
    - ModernMech 4y ago
      True it takes time, as student outcomes and testimonials are part of the accreditation process. But that doesn’t change the calculus for new students. It’s kind of a catch-22, but necessarily so.
      - SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
        I would suspect the cost would go up if accredited. So, maybe an early adopter discount in some cases if not this one.
  - tolleydbg 4y ago
    I don't think the student who who attend a trade school like this would care in the slightest that it isn't accredited. Taking them at their word that they teach five trades, offer employment at a local construction company, and set students up with an apprenticeship, these students could care less about accreditation or a degree. They'll finish with several years of experience in a trade.
    - 4y ago
edent 4y ago
- howmayiannoyyou 4y ago
  The non-religious, progressive side has dominated college campuses for about 15 years. It's okay to have alternatives, and it's okay for both sides of the belief continuum to be represented.
  - adenozine 4y ago
    With Roe V Wade overturned recently, this seems a bit tone deaf. The beliefs are being much more than represented, they’re being mandated and legislated and protected unfairly. Nobody has opposed the existence of churches or religious institutions in any major political setting for a long time. That’s what representation means, that their right to exist and operate is protected. It’s not being attacked. I’m a devout follower of Neaus Christ, but calling myself a Christian in modern America makes me absolutely sick to my stomach these days. I’m nearly ashamed of what that means for this country.
    - reaperducer 4y ago
      devout follower ... but calling myself a Christian in modern America makes me absolutely sick You seem to be working with a definition of "devout" that I'm unfamiliar with.
      - adenozine 4y ago
        This is embarrassing to post. Just say you have trouble relating to people, it’d come across better. Devout is about dedication, not visibility. My journey has nothing to do with how I portray myself and behave in social settings. Very few of my coworkers even know I attend church and do mission work. I don’t have to wave a flag out of my ass to worship the Living God, unlike the majority of phony half-believers keeping pews warm Sunday mornings. They leave church filled with impatience and anger, and treat those less fortunate as a filth and a burden despite being commanded by God to serve THEM! All that said, I’m not at all shocked you don’t understand. Good luck.
ThrowawayTestr 4y ago
I was hoping the religion part would be more of a background thing and not a core tenant of the program. No option to skip the BA in Catholic Studies.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- riffic 4y ago
  tenet
rossdavidh 4y ago
Less significant in and of itself, is the fact that this is not the first new college I've heard of being founded in the last few years, at a time when overall undergrad college enrollment is in decline, and a few colleges have recently either closed or merged with other institutions to make one college smaller than the two were when separate. This would seem to be contradictory, if it is interpreted as a result of less demand for post-secondary education. It makes more sense, if it is the result of a dissatisfaction with current US post-secondary institutions.
- indymike 4y ago
  > It makes more sense, if it is the result of a dissatisfaction with current US post-secondary institutions. This is exactly what is going on. Boot camps, income share models, and a lot of newer colleges are simply attempts to disrupt the post-secondary industry. In this case, they have a really interesting table on the Tuition and fees page showing how students come out $171,000 ahead with their apprenticeship program (and it is quite conservative).
- mikeryan 4y ago
  Dunno this seems like a bit of a strange one and I'm sure others have popped up. This is a faith based, trade school where everyone graduates with a "Catholic Studies Degree" It's barely a college, its not accredited AFAICT and seems more like a trade school - outside of the "Catholic Studies Degree" which maybe counts for a "real" BA?
  - philsnow 4y ago
    To my knowledge, accreditation takes a few years and requires demonstrating adherence to the accreditation standards over a similar period of years. I don't know if, for a new school, accreditation groups retroactively "credit" any degrees that the school has granted since opening.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      Non-accredited schools that are seeking accreditation always highlight this fact and what it means for students who start before accreditation is award. This school does not, so it almost certainly is not seeking accreditation, and since it's degree program is pretty overtly not a traditional academic degree program (not even in theology), but a religio-political indoctrination program designed to create warriors for a particular political viewpoint on behalf of a theocratic faction within Catholicism, I doubt it would have much chance at accreditation if it sought it.
karmicthreat 4y ago
These new "freedom" or other themed universities set my griftdar off every time. Like the University of Austin does. I'm not very fond of the grifty nature of established post-secondary education either. But you at least get something of some value at the end.
- melony 4y ago
  Isn't UT Austin an established state school? They have a lot of alumni in the valley.
  - karmicthreat 4y ago
    UT Austin is a completely established school. I'm talking about the deceptively named University of Austin which is the Musk, Rogan, Fridman affiliated school opening maybe soon. I don't know if those 3 are actually affiliated with it, but their names come up with it.
    - pyuser583 4y ago
      Isn’t “University of Dallas” also deceptively named?
      - jxramos 4y ago
        I think this may be an unfamiliar pattern for towns that haven’t yet crowded their name into university titles but it’s a well established pattern when enough institutions land on the ground. Eg University of San Francisco (USF) San Francisco State University (SFSU) University of California San Francisco (UCSF) Same exact pattern in San Diego too. Probably going to see this pattern permutations across several towns in the future. I think Seattle and towns in Florida May have a similar pattern too. Kind of makes a schools named after individuals a bit more distinctive come to think about it.
        pyuser583 4y ago
        I’d only noticed that pattern in University of Chicago and University of San Francisco … but yeah … very interesting.
8bitsrule 4y ago
> devoted most of the years of his life on earth to manual work Not sure sure about those missing 12 years, tho.;-|
- Thorrez 4y ago
  >Christian tradition suggests that Jesus simply lived in Galilee during that period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unknown_years_of_Jesus#New_Testament_gap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unknown_years_of_Jesus#New_Tes... That period is what they're referring to by "most of the years of his life".
philsnow 4y ago
My understanding of this new college is that it's aimed at solving the perceived problem of four-year Catholic liberal arts schools, namely that they graduate a lot of young adults with the same (or roughly the same) degrees, but without an obvious career path laid out for them. So, to begin with, high school graduates who go to these schools were predisposed to go to a Catholic liberal arts college. If the College in the article is successful in its mission, these folks will graduate with the degree they wanted, in the surroundings/environment they wanted, but also with solid career possibilities. People have been swearing up and down for over a decade that the US graduates far more people with bachelors degrees than we "need", and that more parents[0] should be encouraging their kids to learn a trade. This new college is a response to that. [0] it's seldom "us"; the problem seems to be isolated, in many peoples' minds, to other peoples' kids, and they don't want their own kids to be the ones who learn a trade.
- sircastor 4y ago
  My mom frequently encouraged me to learn a trade on top of my chosen (at the time) field (Special Effects). She always pointed out that people would need their cars fixed and would need their electrical wired.
  - jseliger 4y ago
    people would need their cars fixed This may turn out to be false: electric cars require almost no maintenance.
    - distortedsignal 4y ago
      You’ll still need alignments. You’ll still need the steering adjusted. ABS modules can fail, those need to be replaced. Just because we’re getting rid of two large issue generators in the engine/transmission system, doesn’t mean the new machines are bulletproof. People are going to need their cars fixed.
      - DiabloD3 4y ago
protomyth 4y ago
In a weird way it reminds me of many of the TCUs (tribal colleges & universities) where trades / vocational degrees are taught along side "normal" college classes. Its actually a pretty good idea and if properly done can result in some really nice interaction. I really wish that someone will mix a vocational robotics certificate with an actual robotic engineering degree. I just want to see the interaction. I dearly wish the result of the technicians having to build something designed by the engineering degree.
robg 4y ago
For $15k a year, couldn’t someone just apprentice in a trade and get paid?
- astura 4y ago
  You're assuming apprenticeships are available. Friend of mine ended up going to community college because the apprenticeship he wanted had a waiting list that was several years long.
- quickthrowman 4y ago
  Yes, the locals (union) my shop hires from offers classes to apprentices at the hiring hall these days, no trade school required. Multiple construction trades offer these programs, including the well-paid ones like electricians, pipefitters, ironworkers, and sheet metal workers. There are a ton of experienced tradespeople retiring and not enough younger workers entering the trades to replace them.
shp0ngle 4y ago
"Catholic" and "Masonry" on the same page? https://www.collegeofstjoseph.com/trades/masonry https://www.collegeofstjoseph.com/trades/masonry
- Thorrez 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masonry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masonry not https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry
- joemazerino 4y ago
  I got the joke -- take my upvote
  - microtherion 4y ago
    No need for an upvote — a fancy handshake should do.
    - a9h74j 4y ago
      Online it is by steganography. Did you not get the memo?
- elcritch 4y ago
  It’s ok because the masonry isn’t free. ;)
pyuser583 4y ago
This seems like an interesting idea. You can object to the religious element. But a low cost liberal arts college that also teaches a trade sounds like a really, really good idea.
- tptacek 4y ago
  It's an idea that every community college in the country has already had, isn't it?
  - pyuser583 4y ago
    No. I went to community college before “real college” - and it tried to be all things to all people. “Want to transfer to the local land grant college? Get your credits here!” “Want to earn a certificate IT security? Take your courses here! “Want to earn your GED? Take the courses and the test here! Honestly, now that I think of it, the reason this college appeals to me is because of how focused they are. They have a very specific goal. “A very specific goal” is something most colleges lack, so it’s not fair to pick in community colleges.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      I mean, you can do more than one thing at a community college. For core undergrad prereq classes in Illinois, CC credits are as good as flagship credits. If you've got a physics prereq, take it at a CC, pay less for it, and probably get better instruction --- that's the experience my kids had. If you need a GED, get your GED. Sounds pretty great! Need a welding certification? The CC has the facilities and instructors. It'd be one thing if they did a poor job at all (or any) of these things. But from what I can tell, they mostly do an excellent job at all these things.
      - pyuser583 4y ago
        I transferred from my “do everything” community college to a college that only offered one major and zero electives. Every student took exactly the same classes. The level of support was amazing! All of the students were able to help each other, because they all had the same courses, By the time I started a class, I’d heard a dozen stories about what we learn and do. And then when I was in my senior year, I spent lots of time mentoring the incoming students on what to expect. I don’t think you can realistically do so many things. Not well anyway. We need more specialized schools.
Animats 4y ago
This is the Catholic Church returning to its roots - ensuring the aristocracy a supply of diligent, compliant workers.
- mieses 4y ago
  Good. It's a more satisfying life for the Last Man than to be an intellectually neutered, woke, and subordinate dependent.
- silent_cal 4y ago
  Don't you know that a liberal arts degree has the exact opposite aim? And the Catholic Church has always supported them. On the other hand the modern university sees STEM as the only thing worthwhile because it's "useful" and liberal arts as worthless because they're "useless". Even today in countries with a Catholic heritage the work culture still places a high value on leisure.
Imnimo 4y ago
Do you really need to pay $15k a year to learn HVAC from guys with PhDs in Theology?
- throwoutway 4y ago
  > Do you really need to pay $15k a year to learn HVAC from guys with PhDs in Theology? An incredibly ignorant and uneducated comment that’s unnecessarily dismissive. It took two seconds to confirm on their website that your comment is wrong. Not all their faculty is theology
  - morelisp 4y ago
    It is still significantly more expensive than existing Salesian programs. There’s definitely an ideological component here they expect someone will pay for.
  - Imnimo 4y ago
    Yes, it's only half theology degrees - there's also a philosophy and a history degree. The only ones actually related to the trades are two guys with no listed degree. One says "Math and Engineering", and other just says the single word "carpentry". Sounds like exactly the qualifications I'd want for an expensive HVAC certification...
  - tptacek 4y ago
    I think you're wrong about this, and the parent comment makes a valid point about the credentials of the instructors at this organization, which appears to have as much a political mission as it does an educational mission. It's also priced higher than a community college, but lacks accreditation or, presumably, the facilities of a typical CC.
smkellat 4y ago
I’m very curious how they’re getting around section 1713.02 of the Ohio Revised Code as seen at https://codes.ohio.gov/ohio-revised-code/section-1713.02 https://codes.ohio.gov/ohio-revised-code/section-1713.02 They’re not on the Ohio Department of Higher Education’s authorized list. They make no mention on their website of even seeking authorization. They’re not clearly identifying themselves as a “Bible College” to take advantage of that loophole.
tptacek 4y ago
This institution doesn't appear to be affiliated with any US diocese or Catholic order, and the founder and several of the "teaching fellows" are fairly political; you can read a bunch of their stuff on https://newpolity.com/ https://newpolity.com/. This is a somewhat weird species of "Catholic" philosophy that departs in a bunch of ways from Catholicism as practiced at parishes around, say, Chicago. I'd be a little wary.
- katamarimambo 4y ago
  The "Minimalism and the non-binary body" is an example of how a text can be written with eloquence but be just as demented as GG Allin lyric.
- silent_cal 4y ago
  Why do you think the parishes around Chicago are normative for Catholicism? The impression I get when I hear about it is that things are pretty bad there. On the other hand, a lot of young Catholics that I know listen to shows like New Polity.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    Bad where? I bring up Chicago because (a) I live here, (b) grew up Catholic here (c) am now Catholic here, (d) it's one of the largest cities in the country, and (e) it's famously a bastion of US Catholicism.
russellbeattie 4y ago
Wow. I happened to go to the College of St. Joseph [1] for my first semester of college, so you can imagine my surprise at this link. Apparently the college I went to closed in 2019. That's sad, it was very good to me. I guess that's why this new org added "the worker" to their name. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_of_St._Joseph https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_of_St._Joseph
motohagiography 4y ago
This emphasis on developing physical competence in a trade as part of a moral education is very Aristotelian (techne) and by extension, Aquinian, for what I vaguely remember as being the St. Thomas Aquinas and after him the Jesuits effectively reconciling Catholicism with "Hellenist" ideas, which were the classical philosphers. That's literally my depth on it though, like a bit of trivia. I spent a little time with some Jesuits and was surprised at how closely their ideas resembled classical thinking, and was completely unlike the evangelicals and secular teachers I had known. However, the school sounds pretty amazing. Outside STEM, undergrad programs seem to be producing ideologues and not builders and this college seems like an antidote to that.
- tptacek 4y ago
  Does it sound amazing? The 5 trades this school claims to serve are carpentry, plumbing, masonry, electical, and HVAC. Of 8 listed faculty, just 1 claims expertise in any of these trades --- carpentry. That instructor operates an inn in Ohio and blogs about politics. The school doesn't offer trade certifications at all, but rather a degree in Catholic studies. By comparison, Triton College, my nearest community college, offers certifications in 3 of the 5 trades on this list. City Colleges of Chicago offer all 5. For each trade, their certification is recognized, and each trade program has a listed catalog of required and optional courses, with faculty. Triton costs $11k (~$5k after aid). This "Catholic" college (it is unaffiliated with the church) costs $15k --- and doesn't issue a certification in 1 or 2 years (I don't think it offers one at all; you get a "Catholic studies" degree, which I doubt many plumbing companies are looking for). This doesn't sound like an amazing deal to me. It sounds like something else.
  - motohagiography 4y ago
    The amazing part to me was using physical trade competence for a philosophical foundation. Is their program ideological? Absolutely, and they are pretty forthright about it. It reminded me a lot of Matthew B. Crawford's "shopclass as soulcraft," book, which riffed on the same themes of the intrinsically moral quality of competence. That's the root idea in their ideology right there, I think. On the scam side, their church affiliation only needs approval at a fairly low level, as the Church isn't really that monolithic, it's very much a federation in which things as different as liberation theology, jesuitism, cults of saints, and even opus dei can co-exist under the same umbrella. If the objection were that this school is mainly a conservative ideological training ground, I would agree that's an accurate assessment, but I didn't get the impression that was hidden from sight, so I didn't think we needed to be oblique about characterizing it. They don't say, "welcome to our unaccredited reactionary conservative stochastic terror indoctrination centre" because they don't define themselves in terms from critical theories that originate from (to them) an alien worldivew. I'd agree it's the something-else you are referring to, but that's what makes it interesting.

176 points by jseliger 4y ago

slater 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

seibelj 4y ago

I think you could make a pretty inexpensive Computer Science non-profit that is unaccredited but issued its own degree. No one cares about accreditation anyway. It would take a wealthy person to put their name on it, and be a struggle to get the first cohort off the ground, but once you get solid lecturers and a good reputation it would be self-fulfilling. You only need cheap laptops and a single room for the whole cohort. Otherwise it's knowledge transfer. If you paid the lecturers above-average salary and outsourced everything else, you could probably do it for under $5 million a year, which for a rich tech person is peanuts.

rchaud 4y ago
> It would take a wealthy person to put their name on it, and be a struggle to get the first cohort off the ground, but once you get solid lecturers and a good reputation it would be self-fulfilling. Any real world examples of this? Besides the Thiel fund of course, which is a ideological vanity project.
- seibelj 4y ago
  There is a new university called UATX that is trying https://www.uaustin.org/ https://www.uaustin.org/ But they seem to be going down the route of trying to get accredited. IMO no one cares about any of that except other academics, businesses only care about talent and intelligence.
  - whatshisface 4y ago
    Accreditation is meant to protect students (in the new model, customers) from scams. Would you, personally, go to a college that wasn't accredited?
    - seibelj 4y ago
      Yes - if a graduate can demonstrate they received a good education, then the reputation of the school will grow. Many rules for accreditation (like libraries with a certain number of books) make zero sense in 2022.
      - whatshisface 4y ago
        Would you, as a student, rather grow the reputation of your non-accredited institution by demonstrating over time that you don't match the prevailing prejudices against it, or would you rather go to an accredited institution that people can see with a little research, is not a diploma mill?
    - mathgladiator 4y ago
      > Would you, personally, go to a college that wasn't accredited? If there was solid evidence of a pipeline towards big tech, then maybe? I went to K-State which is accredited and yet no big tech recruits from there. The only way I got into the big tech game was starting a company in the mid-west and having CTO on my resume.
      - whatshisface 4y ago
        I've never seen solid evidence, that the public would be able to see, of a pipeline to big tech except at Stanford, and maybe Harvard, because that's what people talk about and put in movies. I am not saying there isn't a "pipeline" anywhere else, just that the pipeline has to be very big and obvious before a highschooler or a midwestern parent of a highschooler would know about it. If it was really true that nothing mattered except for quality, there'd hardly be a need for universities at all, because students could buy books and self-teach or hire tutors. Nonetheless, that is almost never done, because outward signs like accreditation matter a lot.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
  Vanderbilt, Yale, Stanford, Duke, Carnegie Mellon. Rich people have been putting their names on institutions of higher learning for some time.
  - daniel-cussen 4y ago
    Stanford had to do all kinds of shit to make its way up the rankings, the Termans in particular, just pulling all the stops on the way to number 1. It got $80,000 in WW2 when in contrast Caltech got $120,000,000. As Steve Blank put it, DoD (then Department of War) had no respect for Stanford engineering. They just plucked Terman put him in charge at Harvard. Harvard Radio Lab. It used to be bombers didn't get through, Terman changed that, after WW2, "the bomber will always get through." Then he plucked 8 guys from the Harvard Radio Lab, made them Stanford professors, and that's when Stanford started getting...a little bit of respect. It helped his best students became strong entrepreneurs like he wanted them to be, AND were generous--David Packard becoming Stanford's greatest benefactor in fact, in particular donating directly to the Stanford Endowment so the University could do whatever it thought was best--and having a long-lasting string of successes. This longevity was based on Stanford engineering graduates. There's other colleges named after whomever, anybody, and they don't go anywhere. There's a lot of cooperation required, a lot of people refusing to let each and every other one of them down.
ThrowawayR2 4y ago
> "No one cares about accreditation anyway." "... U.S. jurisdictions where the use of higher education credentials from diploma mills and unaccredited schools is explicitly illegal or legally restricted include Illinois, Indiana, Maine, Michigan, Missouri, Nevada, New Jersey, North Dakota, Oregon, South Dakota, Texas, Virginia, and Washington. Many other states are also considering restrictions on unaccredited degree use in order to help prevent fraud. ..." -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diploma_mills_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diploma_mills_in_the_United_St...
- bencollier49 4y ago
  This sounds like moat-building. But what does "the use of higher education credentials from diploma mills and unaccredited schools" actually amount to? Listing them on a CV?
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    It can amount to financial fraud (or at least incompetence), shoddy engineering, adverse and inefficient selection for graduate and post-graduate studies, and so forth.
  - ThrowawayR2 4y ago
    You know, you could've just Googled a bit to find the relevant laws. For example, for Washington state: https://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.60.070 https://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.60.070 "... (2) A person is guilty of knowingly using a false academic credential if the person knowingly uses a false academic credential or falsely claims to have a credential issued by an institution of higher education that is accredited by an accrediting association recognized as such by rule of the student achievement council: (a) In a written or oral advertisement or other promotion of a business; or (b) With the intent to: (i) Obtain employment; (ii) Obtain a license or certificate to practice a trade, profession, or occupation; (iii) Obtain a promotion, compensation or other benefit, or an increase in compensation or other benefit, in employment or in the practice of a trade, profession, or occupation; (iv) Obtain admission to an educational program in this state; or (v) Gain a position in government with authority over another person, regardless of whether the person receives compensation for the position. ... (4) Issuing a false academic credential is a class C felony. (5) Knowingly using a false academic credential is a gross misdemeanor." Seems doubtful that it gets prosecuted much though.
wildrhythms 4y ago
Oh you got your degree from Omnicorp College? Sorry, at Megacorp we only accept degrees from Megacorp University (a subsidiary of the Walt Disney-Unilever School). No one cares about accreditation.
- whatshisface 4y ago
  How does writing a one-sentence cyberpunk story say anything about who cares about accreditation?
- pram 4y ago
  Costco degrees have pretty broad acceptance though.
  - _-david-_ 4y ago
    What is a Costco degree?
nibbleshifter 4y ago
> No one cares about accreditation anyway. Outside of HN and the SV bubble, accreditation really matters.
- 8bitsrule 4y ago
  Back when I was a manual laborer, if you could pick up a hammer and hit the nail every time - or mixup a good batch of mud - or drive a skidder of logs to the landing - that was the interview and accreditation. College enabled me to talk fancier during that time.
  - watwut 4y ago
    You don't need trade school for hitting nail with hammer nor for digging holes. You don't need previous experience either. For those kind of jobs this is complete waste of money.
- tolleydbg 4y ago
  Not in trades. These students will graduate with years of experience, taking the website explanation at face value. There isn't something akin to ABET, or even FE/PE exams for these skills, but if they can count their work experience while in school here, they can become licensed tradesmen in states with work and apprenticeship requirements.
  - mattkrause 4y ago
    Accreditation might matter for student loans, immigration, etc.
  - nibbleshifter 4y ago
    It becomes a massive issue in trades if you want to migrate to another country. Some countries are very stringent about accredited qualifications for certain trades.
- SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
  I’m hiring for a Flutter and BLE job right now. Couldn’t possibly care less about accreditation and far from an HN-typical. We’re out there. Really doesn’t matter on the specific job, all I care is, can you do it, and will you be a distraction?
chaosharmonic 4y ago
An accredited CS degree program is actually one of FreeCodeCamp's long-term goals.[0] [0] https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/free-accredited-bachelors-degrees-in-computer-science-how-do-we-get-there/ https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/free-accredited-bachelors-...
ModernMech 4y ago
Our CS department just spent an entire year on our reaccreditation. It’s a huge pain in the ass and takes a ton of effort. But it’s one of the main thing parents ask about. People definitely care.
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  Parents ask... do employers? I would guess not.
  - watwut 4y ago
    Parents are the ones who pay.
  - Nasrudith 4y ago
    Yes and no. Unaccredited are a red flag but proven abilities shows it was legitimate enough. Still makes it harder to get through the door with an unaccredited degree. Which is reason to care.
    - chrisseaton 4y ago
      > Still makes it harder to get through the door with an unaccredited degree. But who is checking? I’ve never asked myself if someone’s degree is accredited. I wouldn’t even know how to check if I cared.
      - mattkrause 4y ago
        I'm pretty sure I've seen it on government job postings. In fact, many of the federal CS jobs require ABET-accredited degree programs, which is annoying because many of the better programs aren't (Stanford and CMU, for example). Accreditation may matter for immigration (some places give extra points to people with degrees), possibly student loans, and things like that.
      - astura 4y ago
        Are you involved in hiring? Because I check the degree of every single resume I review, I have to. The other day I got a resume from a candidate who has a degree from Albany State University which I never heard of. So I pulled up their website and go to the "Accreditation" link and saw that it's accredited by the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools Commission on Colleges.
jollybean 4y ago
Accreditation is not necessary, but it matters. Also the reputation of the college, particularly in professional fields. For trade school, it probably does not matter at all.

the_only_law 4y ago

$15000 a year including room isn't bad, but I can still get similar education much cheaper at a nearby CC.

wildrhythms 4y ago
There's also the fact that a CC is accredited, so not only do you get a degree, but you also get credits that can be transferred to another college.
- reaperducer 4y ago
  There's also the fact that a CC is accredited Doesn't the school have to open first, and then get accredited later? Or is it possible to be accredited from day one?
  - ModernMech 4y ago
    True it takes time, as student outcomes and testimonials are part of the accreditation process. But that doesn’t change the calculus for new students. It’s kind of a catch-22, but necessarily so.
    - SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
      I would suspect the cost would go up if accredited. So, maybe an early adopter discount in some cases if not this one.
- tolleydbg 4y ago
  I don't think the student who who attend a trade school like this would care in the slightest that it isn't accredited. Taking them at their word that they teach five trades, offer employment at a local construction company, and set students up with an apprenticeship, these students could care less about accreditation or a degree. They'll finish with several years of experience in a trade.
  - 4y ago

edent 4y ago

howmayiannoyyou 4y ago
The non-religious, progressive side has dominated college campuses for about 15 years. It's okay to have alternatives, and it's okay for both sides of the belief continuum to be represented.
- adenozine 4y ago
  With Roe V Wade overturned recently, this seems a bit tone deaf. The beliefs are being much more than represented, they’re being mandated and legislated and protected unfairly. Nobody has opposed the existence of churches or religious institutions in any major political setting for a long time. That’s what representation means, that their right to exist and operate is protected. It’s not being attacked. I’m a devout follower of Neaus Christ, but calling myself a Christian in modern America makes me absolutely sick to my stomach these days. I’m nearly ashamed of what that means for this country.
  - reaperducer 4y ago
    devout follower ... but calling myself a Christian in modern America makes me absolutely sick You seem to be working with a definition of "devout" that I'm unfamiliar with.
    - adenozine 4y ago
      This is embarrassing to post. Just say you have trouble relating to people, it’d come across better. Devout is about dedication, not visibility. My journey has nothing to do with how I portray myself and behave in social settings. Very few of my coworkers even know I attend church and do mission work. I don’t have to wave a flag out of my ass to worship the Living God, unlike the majority of phony half-believers keeping pews warm Sunday mornings. They leave church filled with impatience and anger, and treat those less fortunate as a filth and a burden despite being commanded by God to serve THEM! All that said, I’m not at all shocked you don’t understand. Good luck.

ThrowawayTestr 4y ago

I was hoping the religion part would be more of a background thing and not a core tenant of the program. No option to skip the BA in Catholic Studies.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
riffic 4y ago
tenet

rossdavidh 4y ago

Less significant in and of itself, is the fact that this is not the first new college I've heard of being founded in the last few years, at a time when overall undergrad college enrollment is in decline, and a few colleges have recently either closed or merged with other institutions to make one college smaller than the two were when separate. This would seem to be contradictory, if it is interpreted as a result of less demand for post-secondary education. It makes more sense, if it is the result of a dissatisfaction with current US post-secondary institutions.

indymike 4y ago
> It makes more sense, if it is the result of a dissatisfaction with current US post-secondary institutions. This is exactly what is going on. Boot camps, income share models, and a lot of newer colleges are simply attempts to disrupt the post-secondary industry. In this case, they have a really interesting table on the Tuition and fees page showing how students come out $171,000 ahead with their apprenticeship program (and it is quite conservative).
mikeryan 4y ago
Dunno this seems like a bit of a strange one and I'm sure others have popped up. This is a faith based, trade school where everyone graduates with a "Catholic Studies Degree" It's barely a college, its not accredited AFAICT and seems more like a trade school - outside of the "Catholic Studies Degree" which maybe counts for a "real" BA?
- philsnow 4y ago
  To my knowledge, accreditation takes a few years and requires demonstrating adherence to the accreditation standards over a similar period of years. I don't know if, for a new school, accreditation groups retroactively "credit" any degrees that the school has granted since opening.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    Non-accredited schools that are seeking accreditation always highlight this fact and what it means for students who start before accreditation is award. This school does not, so it almost certainly is not seeking accreditation, and since it's degree program is pretty overtly not a traditional academic degree program (not even in theology), but a religio-political indoctrination program designed to create warriors for a particular political viewpoint on behalf of a theocratic faction within Catholicism, I doubt it would have much chance at accreditation if it sought it.

karmicthreat 4y ago

These new "freedom" or other themed universities set my griftdar off every time. Like the University of Austin does. I'm not very fond of the grifty nature of established post-secondary education either. But you at least get something of some value at the end.

melony 4y ago
Isn't UT Austin an established state school? They have a lot of alumni in the valley.
- karmicthreat 4y ago
  UT Austin is a completely established school. I'm talking about the deceptively named University of Austin which is the Musk, Rogan, Fridman affiliated school opening maybe soon. I don't know if those 3 are actually affiliated with it, but their names come up with it.
  - pyuser583 4y ago
    Isn’t “University of Dallas” also deceptively named?
    - jxramos 4y ago
      I think this may be an unfamiliar pattern for towns that haven’t yet crowded their name into university titles but it’s a well established pattern when enough institutions land on the ground. Eg University of San Francisco (USF) San Francisco State University (SFSU) University of California San Francisco (UCSF) Same exact pattern in San Diego too. Probably going to see this pattern permutations across several towns in the future. I think Seattle and towns in Florida May have a similar pattern too. Kind of makes a schools named after individuals a bit more distinctive come to think about it.
      - pyuser583 4y ago
        I’d only noticed that pattern in University of Chicago and University of San Francisco … but yeah … very interesting.

8bitsrule 4y ago

> devoted most of the years of his life on earth to manual work Not sure sure about those missing 12 years, tho.;-|

Thorrez 4y ago
>Christian tradition suggests that Jesus simply lived in Galilee during that period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unknown_years_of_Jesus#New_Testament_gap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unknown_years_of_Jesus#New_Tes... That period is what they're referring to by "most of the years of his life".

philsnow 4y ago

My understanding of this new college is that it's aimed at solving the perceived problem of four-year Catholic liberal arts schools, namely that they graduate a lot of young adults with the same (or roughly the same) degrees, but without an obvious career path laid out for them. So, to begin with, high school graduates who go to these schools were predisposed to go to a Catholic liberal arts college. If the College in the article is successful in its mission, these folks will graduate with the degree they wanted, in the surroundings/environment they wanted, but also with solid career possibilities. People have been swearing up and down for over a decade that the US graduates far more people with bachelors degrees than we "need", and that more parents[0] should be encouraging their kids to learn a trade. This new college is a response to that. [0] it's seldom "us"; the problem seems to be isolated, in many peoples' minds, to other peoples' kids, and they don't want their own kids to be the ones who learn a trade.

sircastor 4y ago
My mom frequently encouraged me to learn a trade on top of my chosen (at the time) field (Special Effects). She always pointed out that people would need their cars fixed and would need their electrical wired.
- jseliger 4y ago
  people would need their cars fixed This may turn out to be false: electric cars require almost no maintenance.
  - distortedsignal 4y ago
    You’ll still need alignments. You’ll still need the steering adjusted. ABS modules can fail, those need to be replaced. Just because we’re getting rid of two large issue generators in the engine/transmission system, doesn’t mean the new machines are bulletproof. People are going to need their cars fixed.
    - DiabloD3 4y ago

protomyth 4y ago

In a weird way it reminds me of many of the TCUs (tribal colleges & universities) where trades / vocational degrees are taught along side "normal" college classes. Its actually a pretty good idea and if properly done can result in some really nice interaction. I really wish that someone will mix a vocational robotics certificate with an actual robotic engineering degree. I just want to see the interaction. I dearly wish the result of the technicians having to build something designed by the engineering degree.

robg 4y ago

For $15k a year, couldn’t someone just apprentice in a trade and get paid?

astura 4y ago
You're assuming apprenticeships are available. Friend of mine ended up going to community college because the apprenticeship he wanted had a waiting list that was several years long.
quickthrowman 4y ago
Yes, the locals (union) my shop hires from offers classes to apprentices at the hiring hall these days, no trade school required. Multiple construction trades offer these programs, including the well-paid ones like electricians, pipefitters, ironworkers, and sheet metal workers. There are a ton of experienced tradespeople retiring and not enough younger workers entering the trades to replace them.

shp0ngle 4y ago

"Catholic" and "Masonry" on the same page? https://www.collegeofstjoseph.com/trades/masonry https://www.collegeofstjoseph.com/trades/masonry

Thorrez 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masonry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masonry not https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry
joemazerino 4y ago
I got the joke -- take my upvote
- microtherion 4y ago
  No need for an upvote — a fancy handshake should do.
  - a9h74j 4y ago
    Online it is by steganography. Did you not get the memo?
elcritch 4y ago
It’s ok because the masonry isn’t free. ;)

pyuser583 4y ago

This seems like an interesting idea. You can object to the religious element. But a low cost liberal arts college that also teaches a trade sounds like a really, really good idea.

tptacek 4y ago
It's an idea that every community college in the country has already had, isn't it?
- pyuser583 4y ago
  No. I went to community college before “real college” - and it tried to be all things to all people. “Want to transfer to the local land grant college? Get your credits here!” “Want to earn a certificate IT security? Take your courses here! “Want to earn your GED? Take the courses and the test here! Honestly, now that I think of it, the reason this college appeals to me is because of how focused they are. They have a very specific goal. “A very specific goal” is something most colleges lack, so it’s not fair to pick in community colleges.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    I mean, you can do more than one thing at a community college. For core undergrad prereq classes in Illinois, CC credits are as good as flagship credits. If you've got a physics prereq, take it at a CC, pay less for it, and probably get better instruction --- that's the experience my kids had. If you need a GED, get your GED. Sounds pretty great! Need a welding certification? The CC has the facilities and instructors. It'd be one thing if they did a poor job at all (or any) of these things. But from what I can tell, they mostly do an excellent job at all these things.
    - pyuser583 4y ago
      I transferred from my “do everything” community college to a college that only offered one major and zero electives. Every student took exactly the same classes. The level of support was amazing! All of the students were able to help each other, because they all had the same courses, By the time I started a class, I’d heard a dozen stories about what we learn and do. And then when I was in my senior year, I spent lots of time mentoring the incoming students on what to expect. I don’t think you can realistically do so many things. Not well anyway. We need more specialized schools.

Animats 4y ago

This is the Catholic Church returning to its roots - ensuring the aristocracy a supply of diligent, compliant workers.

mieses 4y ago
Good. It's a more satisfying life for the Last Man than to be an intellectually neutered, woke, and subordinate dependent.
silent_cal 4y ago
Don't you know that a liberal arts degree has the exact opposite aim? And the Catholic Church has always supported them. On the other hand the modern university sees STEM as the only thing worthwhile because it's "useful" and liberal arts as worthless because they're "useless". Even today in countries with a Catholic heritage the work culture still places a high value on leisure.

Imnimo 4y ago

Do you really need to pay $15k a year to learn HVAC from guys with PhDs in Theology?

throwoutway 4y ago
> Do you really need to pay $15k a year to learn HVAC from guys with PhDs in Theology? An incredibly ignorant and uneducated comment that’s unnecessarily dismissive. It took two seconds to confirm on their website that your comment is wrong. Not all their faculty is theology
- morelisp 4y ago
  It is still significantly more expensive than existing Salesian programs. There’s definitely an ideological component here they expect someone will pay for.
- Imnimo 4y ago
  Yes, it's only half theology degrees - there's also a philosophy and a history degree. The only ones actually related to the trades are two guys with no listed degree. One says "Math and Engineering", and other just says the single word "carpentry". Sounds like exactly the qualifications I'd want for an expensive HVAC certification...
- tptacek 4y ago
  I think you're wrong about this, and the parent comment makes a valid point about the credentials of the instructors at this organization, which appears to have as much a political mission as it does an educational mission. It's also priced higher than a community college, but lacks accreditation or, presumably, the facilities of a typical CC.

smkellat 4y ago

I’m very curious how they’re getting around section 1713.02 of the Ohio Revised Code as seen at https://codes.ohio.gov/ohio-revised-code/section-1713.02 https://codes.ohio.gov/ohio-revised-code/section-1713.02 They’re not on the Ohio Department of Higher Education’s authorized list. They make no mention on their website of even seeking authorization. They’re not clearly identifying themselves as a “Bible College” to take advantage of that loophole.

tptacek 4y ago

This institution doesn't appear to be affiliated with any US diocese or Catholic order, and the founder and several of the "teaching fellows" are fairly political; you can read a bunch of their stuff on https://newpolity.com/ https://newpolity.com/. This is a somewhat weird species of "Catholic" philosophy that departs in a bunch of ways from Catholicism as practiced at parishes around, say, Chicago. I'd be a little wary.

katamarimambo 4y ago
The "Minimalism and the non-binary body" is an example of how a text can be written with eloquence but be just as demented as GG Allin lyric.
silent_cal 4y ago
Why do you think the parishes around Chicago are normative for Catholicism? The impression I get when I hear about it is that things are pretty bad there. On the other hand, a lot of young Catholics that I know listen to shows like New Polity.
- tptacek 4y ago
  Bad where? I bring up Chicago because (a) I live here, (b) grew up Catholic here (c) am now Catholic here, (d) it's one of the largest cities in the country, and (e) it's famously a bastion of US Catholicism.

russellbeattie 4y ago

Wow. I happened to go to the College of St. Joseph [1] for my first semester of college, so you can imagine my surprise at this link. Apparently the college I went to closed in 2019. That's sad, it was very good to me. I guess that's why this new org added "the worker" to their name. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_of_St._Joseph https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_of_St._Joseph

motohagiography 4y ago

This emphasis on developing physical competence in a trade as part of a moral education is very Aristotelian (techne) and by extension, Aquinian, for what I vaguely remember as being the St. Thomas Aquinas and after him the Jesuits effectively reconciling Catholicism with "Hellenist" ideas, which were the classical philosphers. That's literally my depth on it though, like a bit of trivia. I spent a little time with some Jesuits and was surprised at how closely their ideas resembled classical thinking, and was completely unlike the evangelicals and secular teachers I had known. However, the school sounds pretty amazing. Outside STEM, undergrad programs seem to be producing ideologues and not builders and this college seems like an antidote to that.

tptacek 4y ago
Does it sound amazing? The 5 trades this school claims to serve are carpentry, plumbing, masonry, electical, and HVAC. Of 8 listed faculty, just 1 claims expertise in any of these trades --- carpentry. That instructor operates an inn in Ohio and blogs about politics. The school doesn't offer trade certifications at all, but rather a degree in Catholic studies. By comparison, Triton College, my nearest community college, offers certifications in 3 of the 5 trades on this list. City Colleges of Chicago offer all 5. For each trade, their certification is recognized, and each trade program has a listed catalog of required and optional courses, with faculty. Triton costs $11k (~$5k after aid). This "Catholic" college (it is unaffiliated with the church) costs $15k --- and doesn't issue a certification in 1 or 2 years (I don't think it offers one at all; you get a "Catholic studies" degree, which I doubt many plumbing companies are looking for). This doesn't sound like an amazing deal to me. It sounds like something else.
- motohagiography 4y ago
  The amazing part to me was using physical trade competence for a philosophical foundation. Is their program ideological? Absolutely, and they are pretty forthright about it. It reminded me a lot of Matthew B. Crawford's "shopclass as soulcraft," book, which riffed on the same themes of the intrinsically moral quality of competence. That's the root idea in their ideology right there, I think. On the scam side, their church affiliation only needs approval at a fairly low level, as the Church isn't really that monolithic, it's very much a federation in which things as different as liberation theology, jesuitism, cults of saints, and even opus dei can co-exist under the same umbrella. If the objection were that this school is mainly a conservative ideological training ground, I would agree that's an accurate assessment, but I didn't get the impression that was hidden from sight, so I didn't think we needed to be oblique about characterizing it. They don't say, "welcome to our unaccredited reactionary conservative stochastic terror indoctrination centre" because they don't define themselves in terms from critical theories that originate from (to them) an alien worldivew. I'd agree it's the something-else you are referring to, but that's what makes it interesting.