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I had this laptop, but ultimately replaced it with a 14” M1 Max. Some thoughts: - The screen is so much worse, in every way, than a MacBook. A “low resolution”

• thethought 4y ago
  >> rc cola .. blah blah Genuine question. Did rc-cola make claim that it is same/close as real cola ? Seem more like taste issue than durian-2-durian compare. Itching to buy a system76 64gb laptop and let go of mbp (good), and the idiotic lenevo and thinkpad (32gb duds.) disclaimer — I work mostly console.
• pkulak 4y ago
  I bought my dad a System76 desktop 4 years ago and he’s been plugging away ever since with nary an issue. He’s not tech literate. He uses the browser and runs an update every once in a while when prompted. It’s been great. I’m fairly certain he’s never opened the terminal (on purpose).
• pachico 4y ago
  A someone that codes and reads code most of the day, matte screen is actually a must for me. To be fair, I don't even consider apple laptops mainly for this reason.
  • d0mine 4y ago
    Could you elaborate or provide a link? (what makes Apple screens less suitable for text work)
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  • chpmrc 4y ago
    "As someone who codes", as if 80%+ of HN user base wasn't coders. Also you can make a screen matte with a screen filter (they are not just good for privacy).
  • kitsunesoba 4y ago
    As someone who used to be a big proponent of matte screens, matte finish is largely unnecessary when the screen in question has a combination of high brightness and good antiglare coating. My personal iMac and work MBP for example are glossy but have 600 nits SDR brightness with great coatings, and so have no issues with glare even in a brightly lit room while I’m using dark mode (which shows reflections more). That said matte screens can also benefit from high brightness. The 500 nit matte panel in my Thinkpad X1 Nano is excellent.
  • kingboss 4y ago
    Unless you are coding in the sun it's not a problem.
    • jmondi 4y ago
      And if you are, it is actually easier to see a MacBook Pro screen than the Lemur Pro, because of how dim the backlight was on the Lemur Pro.
• sschueller 4y ago
  I don't know who decided shinny screens are better but they aren't for me. Maybe they slightly reproduce color more accurately but most people are not graphic designers. Matt screens exist for a reason and can't just dismiss them as being inferior when they specifically solve a problem many have. Maybe they sell better in a store but so do touch screens in cars. Once you however want to use them you realize the mistake you made. I hate this world we are turning into where we redesign things for the worse because "look it's shiny". For me a laptop is a utility item and I need it to work. It needs to be able to use the CPU in it and not be throttled down to crap so it can be in a thin case.
  • sneak 4y ago
    I think the issue is much less shiny/matte and much more high-res/low-res. It seems to be a point of pride in the Linux community that low-res screens are sufficient. Maybe it's because only Apple has figured out how to do both high-res and long battery life/low weight in a single system. The ultrabooks (air clones) are all struggling to replicate it. My 4k XPS13 has atrocious battery life. The only way that this machine manages to get good battery life is via a 2008-era screen resolution and the world's slowest GPU. It's a very hard problem to do small+light, with long battery life, and a high-res screen. The whole class of "ultrabooks" was invented by Apple with the MBAir, then retconned into a notebook category, and they're still way out ahead on the screen/gpu/battery life situation, as well as speakers. Presently all long battery life ultrabooks are low-res and have speakers that remind me of the 90s.
    • hedora 4y ago
      There's also this weird meme that Linux HiDPI isn't ready or something. Back in 2001 I had a small 1600x1200 dell desktop monitor at work, and an even higher DPI Sony Trinitron CRT at home. They were both unusable under Windows, and probably MacOS 9/10.0, but worked fine out of the box in Debian (once you set the DPI correctly in xfree86's config file). High DPI support for Linux has strictly regressed since then, since, for some reason, people think Apple's scaling hacks are capable of pixel perfect rendering, and ported them to Linux.
• victorvosk 4y ago
  Once the fanless M1 air came out, I could not use anything else. I pray the rumored 15 inch M2 air is also fanless with huge battery life and more ports. My S76 laptop just annoyed me. It was fine for a linux machine, but there was just so many little details, build quality, etc I missed from the mac. I also found a few bugs in their custom pop packages and I reported them. The first engineer that responded was honestly pretty rude and implied I didn't know what I was talking about. A second engineer responded and said in fact one of the things I reported was true and hard to fix unfortunately. About a month later I noticed an update went out that fixed the other thing I reported.
• everdrive 4y ago
  >THE TOUCH PAD IS SO SMALL. Why do non-Mac Laptop users put up with such small touchpads? It is maddening. Some of these points are subjective. I used to be an Apple touchpad evangelist, but at some point they switched to having enormous touchpads without any buttons. (the touchpad is the button) I had a touchbar Macbook Pro, and I'd get accidental input from the touchpad with good regularity. I wanted the touchpad from a 2007 Macbook Pro.
  • riedel 4y ago
    It is very subjective: For me the smaller the better, if you give a track point instead. I do not understand why people want to move there hand so much while working...
    • MivLives 4y ago
      Honestly most of the reason I like a big touchpad is gestures. On mac especially. Switching desktops is 3 fingers to the side. My fingers aren't that small, it's a lot easier to do it on a big trackpad. I never really practiced with a track point when I had one, so I was maddeningly imprecise. Having a big touch pad lets me have more room for error on cursor movement. To do that I have to move my hand slightly more to get to the center of the pad. As you said it's subjective.
  • philliphaydon 4y ago
    I have the new DELL XPS 15. WOW I Hate the large trackpad. It’s soooo annoying. I can no longer move my thumb down and back again without random screens flying around due to gestures cos my palm touches the corner. Giant trackpads are terrible. I miss my Lenovo nipple.
    • jmondi 4y ago
      Honestly, this is just proving my point when I say that non-mac touchpads are terrible. On my Lemur Pro, it the palm rejection was awful, it was so damn annoying how often the cursor would just fly to a different spot while I was typing. Literally has never happened on any of my Macs.
• mackal 4y ago
  It should be noted that jmondi review is talking about the previous model. The one the article is talking about hasn't been out long enough for his post to be about lemp11. That doesn't mean it's changed enough that it's not still valid, but it was a different model of the Lemur Pro (likely lemp10)
  • JasonFruit 4y ago
    I only now realized that lemp10, with regard to my laptop, refers to LEMur Pro and not Duncan Lemp. I had far too high hopes.
  • jmondi 4y ago
    Yes yes this is definitely the case. Bought my Lemur Pro in late 2019 and used it until I got my M1 MBp
• cycomanic 4y ago
  I don't want to comment much on the rest, but the whole trope of: a Linux machine is not for someone who isn't comfortable with the cli" needs to die. My partner is essentially computer illiterate (she didn't know about keyboard shortcuts, even for copy paste before we met and still doesn't really use them) and has been using my old Ubuntu laptop for years. The only thing I do is tell her from time to time not just to click away the update (she is a good example why having optional updates is not a good thing). Her issues are pretty much the same she would have for a Windows or Mac machine, usually related to how something in a word processor works. Also my mother (78yo) is using Linux as a only system, and she does a lot of photography and video work. She has actually even become quite competent with the cli by now, just because she likes to try stuff.
  • psalminen 4y ago
    Same here. I put mint on my.computer illiterate girlfriend's old computer. She used it as effectively as any other os. The update issue is real though.
  • tpoacher 4y ago
    Yeah, it's a bit like "A windows machine is not for someone who isn't comfortable editing registry entries". Or "A mac is not for someone who isn't comfortable with hidden system files". I.e. things the average user doesn't interact with anyway, and if they have to they'll probably do it by following a couple of steps blindly from the internet and that is that.
  • shalmanese 4y ago
    It's impossible to generalize across a broad range of use because each person's needs are different and non-negotiable. We've had plenty of examples of totally tech illiterate people using linux with zero problems since 1999 but they're totally irrelevant because they happen to be the people who are on the narrow set of rails that don't touch linux's rough edges. To make a convincing case, you have to move beyond anecdote to actual statistical analysis and the numbers are still pretty overwhelming that many common things that many common people need to do can't be done without the CLI. And even if you generate data that 60, 70, 80% of people would have no problems using linux, that's irrelevant in the case of a specific person who has a specific common need that linux falls over at.
• baybal2 4y ago
  Impressive it is for an "OS brand, yet it's just another relabelled Tongfang laptop, so people really need to blame not OEM, but people who keep buying from them instead of designing own hardware. Designing a laptop from scratch may be an adventure with a budget close to $200k-$300k, but there are tons, and tons of US brands who can pull this financially. Yet, even the "innovative" Framework laptop is mostly OEM work. It seems no Western brand took risk designing own hardware since nineties. I've been a privy to Dell's plans for launching a low-end sub-brand for Asia few years ago, before the COVID. Every contact manufacturer they been considering was exuberant about an opportunity to launch something original under Dell's brand, but Dell's MBAs were horrified of the prospect giving franchisees permission to run own designs: "what if they will make something too good, and compete with our main brand?", "what if they will screw up the design, and degrade our brand?", "how we will square this off with our part suppliers if we will divert them to another party?" I myself would've eagerly taken an opportunity to spin up my own laptop brand, with original design. It's far, far easier than most these fellows imagine, and certainly shouldn't cost many millions.
  • nrp 4y ago
    The Framework Laptop is entirely our own design and architecture, with no white-label or pre-existing ODM/OEM parts. The cost of developing a from scratch laptop like ours is closer to the mid seven figures.
    • hedora 4y ago
      I worked on some proprietary thing (not a laptop) and mid seven figures sounds about right for just the motherboard, case, etc. Our thing was more custom than the framework, but mid seven figures sounds like a steal. Does that include making Linux be reliable on it? (5 engineers total on the EE/mechanical/industrial engineering and SW bringup teams * 4 year product lifespan is mid seven figures, just for salary. That doesn't include facilities, HW budget, stock, etc) I've never used a framework, but I assume suspend resume is reliable, it can sleep for a week, the GPU works, sound card doesn't pop/crackle, etc, etc... That stuff is hard to get right over time as distros get updated, which is why the above team needs to stick around over time (hopefully while they make version N+1).
• kibwen 4y ago
  > The touchpad was like using a Windows machine from 2010. It was so tiny, and had only the bare essential features of registering 1 finger clicks, or 2 finger scrolls. No gestures. My experience is the opposite. My System76 has better gestures than the MacBook it replaced, particularly since the gestures are easily configurable per-app.
• rcv 4y ago
  I have a 17" Oryx Pro that I've been using as my daily driver for work. It's basically a luggable, but I mostly love it. The thing I really miss from my old Apple laptop though is rock-solid suspend behavior. I feel like I can leave my Macbook closed for a week, and it will barely lose any battery life. When I bring home my System76 and leave it in my bag over the weekend, it will always be dead by Monday morning.
  • nathanasmith 4y ago
    >When I bring home my System76 and leave it in my bag over the weekend, it will always be dead by Monday morning. You may be interested in this systemd script I found on the Debian wiki[0] that enables hibernation and power off after a preset amount of time in suspend. I've been using it with my Thinkpads and it works great. Any time I close the lid it goes into suspend then if I don't use the computer for an hour (this is configurable in the script) it happily goes into hibernate. [0]https://wiki.debian.org/SystemdSuspendSedation https://wiki.debian.org/SystemdSuspendSedation
  • bityard 4y ago
    Is this due to the weird sleep states in newer Intel CPUs? I read that these are troublesome even on windows.
  • trelane 4y ago
    Aye, I too wish for better suspend. I suspect system76 would also like this. Perhaps when they're big enough they can push the ODMs enough to make it happen.
• throwawaymaths 4y ago
  I went from a lemur 14" to a Mac m1 and the following things broke: - dual monitors were detected only as one monitor, and we're mirrored. - USB mouse (I disprefer Bluetooth mice) would have to be unplugged and plugged back in if the laptop went to sleep - no home/end keys - I had installed all of my corporate 2FA stuff on safari and safari would randomly drop me from Google meets. No other browser had this issue. The ctl/option madness definitely tanked my productivity while I had the laptop but I figure I would have learned it eventually.
  • jmondi 4y ago
    The monitor issue only happens the first time you plug in the monitor (like with every laptop or computer I’ve ever owned, even the Lemur Pro). After you setup your monitors, it remembers the setup every time you connect after. Yeah agreed with a corded USB mouse, I just have mine plugged into my monitor, one usb c cable to my laptop for video, power, and data. Lemur Pro did this just as good as my Mac, no complaints there. Home and end I’m pretty sure is just CMD + left arrow, and CMD + right arrow. Totally agree, safari is a crap shoot. I used Firefox on my Lemur and on my Mac. I actually ended up remapping my Lemur Pro so that the modifier keys matched the placement of a Mac. I like my main modifier (ctrl on Linux/win, cmd on Mac) to be the key just next to the space bar. I liked the Lemur Pro a lot. Just trying to give some constructive feedback.
    • throwawaymaths 4y ago
      > The monitor issue only happens the first time you plug in the monitor Incorrect. I had several Mac users look at it and none could figure out what was wrong. I suspect apple drivers don't support usb-c to dual display port. Lemur has no problem with usb-c to dual displayport. Job eventually replaced Mac with a librem (which I don't love), it also had no problems.
  • dahfizz 4y ago
    > - no home/end keys > The ctl/option madness definitely tanked my productivity I am forced to work on a Mac at my job. Buying a Mac-layout mechanical keyboard is a must. It has home/end and it has control in the right place (why on earth would apple put fn in the bottom left??).
• movover 4y ago
  > PopOS is great! It is definitely one of the best Linux desktops I’ve used. Manjaro gives it a nice run for it’s money… But.. next year is going to be the year of the Linux desktop! No disrespect to @jeremy_soller, because he is doing a killer job on Pop, but even in 2022, the Linux desktop is RC Cola, and MacOS is Genuine Coke Cola. I’m sure there are die hard RC Cola fans, but most of the world will definitely still prefer Coke Cola. I believe your understanding of Linux as a desktop is woefully outdated, by perhaps over a decade. As someone who has to use all 3 big desktop operating systems for work (Linux via Pop!_OS, Windows, and macOS) and has used nearly every iteration of each operating system over the past 2 decades, I don't know how you came to this conclusion. The only area I could see macOS beating out Pop is in UX... if I didn't know how to use a computer and wanted the most frustrating experience available but also didn't know better. This isn't just my take either - older, completely tech-illiterate family members of mine have tried out various laptops over the years that ran all of the operating systems (adding onto those big 3 OSes, they've also tried ChromeOS), and as of right now, every laptop in my family runs Pop!_OS. When it comes time for them to upgrade their laptops, they specifically ask if I'll be able to setup Pop on their new machines. They do not have to muck around in terminals or anything like that - I setup Pop, teach them how to update it and how to perform the basic tasks they need, and the laptop remains operational for years. Compared to when they were on Windows and macOS, I get significantly fewer support calls throughout the year when they're on Pop. Not only is macOS UX, security, and performance lackluster compared to Linux, but it's also not even close to being as widely adopted as you claim to make it the "Coca Cola of operating systems". Windows holds that title, and that's solely due to how pervasive Windows is throughout schools and businesses, along with the fact that the vast majority of schools (at least in the US) teach students how to use Microsoft-based software like Office. Even if I had to use a Macbook (which I would never), Pop would be installed onto it from day 1, or else I'd opt to not use the laptop all together. Even if the Macbook has superior hardware to another laptop, if the Macbook has to run macOS and the other laptop runs Pop!_OS, I'd use the other laptop. This doesn't even touch on the fact that Linux is an open and free operating system (which again, this is a non-negotiable must-have), whereas macOS is heavily locked down and closed source. Nor does it touch on the fact that modern Linux can play nearly every Windows game with little to no issues and it generally just works 'out of the box' or needs a few applications installed, whereas the same cannot be said for macOS - there's much more work required within the terminal to achieve a lesser, often buggier result. While I agree with you that the overall build quality of the Lemur Pro isn't as polished as a Macbook (which is why I opted for a Framework laptop recently, in fact) and other physical aspects of the machine like its touchpad, I disagree completely with your assessment of the operating systems. Pop!_OS on a M1 Macbook would be a better experience than macOS on a Macbook.
• madduci 4y ago
  > the Linux desktop is RC Cola, and MacOS is Genuine Coke Cola It all depends on how you want to use the computer and what are your daily driver apps. Gnome Shell and KDE are wonderfully polished and work great also with multiple monitors out of the box, XFCE is pretty fast and functional. About your wife that can't use it? Mine is using Manjaro+KDE since years and never had problems, the switch from then-Windows 7 world was pretty no-brainer. It all burns down on how you approach a new system.
• tssva 4y ago
  When I used MacOS I had to spend at least as much time at the command line as I do with Linux. If we are going to rate OS's by how much time is needed at the command line I think Windows is likely to win that battle. I found MacOS not any more usable or stable than Windows had been on my prior laptop. The hardware was less reliable than the Thinkpad my MacBook Pro replaced and repairs were outrageously expensive. I have switched back to a Thinkpad which recently had Windows replaced by Pop!_OS because as of kernel 5.17 the laptop finally gets similar battery life running Linux as it does Windows. I would never consider a MacBook again.
  • JamesSwift 4y ago
    I honestly cant think of a single thing I've ever needed to drop to the command line to fix on a mac. Maybe changing time machine backup process priority so it would run faster? And that was a want, not a need. Unless you mean _working from the command line_ rather than fixing issues with the OS from the command line?