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Boeing CEO says planemaker could be forced to cancel 737 Max 10
- ralph84 4y agoWell, yes, when you are unable or unwilling to build the product to modern safety standards, you should be forced to cancel it.
- caycep 4y agois the consensus that Boeing's engineering prowess is unrecoverable now, post-McDD merger?
- sklargh 4y agoI don’t know if that is the consensus but I struggle to find a major program there that isn’t completely rotten.
- ethbr0 4y agoMQ-25 F/A-18E/F 777
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- sklargh 4y agoTactical fighter aircraft are a bright spot but they aren’t long for this world.
- ceejayoz 4y agoThe MQ-25 is a repurposing of a failed armed drone program. The F/A-18 is from the 70s, and the Super Hornet's from the mid 1990s. The 777 first flew in the mid 1990s. There's not much recent to brag about.
- aunty_helen 4y agoX-37/B
- ceejayoz 4y agoStarted in 1999, and it's a little hard to gauge efficacy of a program we know very little about.
- aunty_helen 4y agoExactly so has existing almost entirely in the window we're talking about. But I think we can guage it by a, still going after 22 years and b, having exceeded design orbit duration by 3x. Obviously the air / space force / nasa etc have been sufficiently happy with the program to keep it going for so long.
- ethbr0 4y agoIMHO, converting the carrier based armed drone program (UCLASS) into a carrier based refueling drone program (CBARS) is one of the most sane and prudent things military acquisition has done in recent times. Why push a cutting edge technology for which there is no immediate need into operational status? Why not instead harvest the low-hanging fruit, while simultaneously using it to refine carrier operations, and then restart UCAV development later when technologies have had more time to mature?
- rmk 4y agoThe 777 entered service in '95.
- MilStdJunkie 4y agoYeah, I challenge anyone to show me a unconditionally successful Boeing program post 2000 AD. Please. Please show one to me. I am begging you here. Aboulafia had like fifty graphs on exactly how Boeing is doomed, at least as a unified company; they might survive in pieces after a GE-style split. Big B is spending all their money on precisely the wrong products, and leaving the right products to die on the vine. This . . this must be what it was like with the late stage evolution of the Soviet design bureaus, but far, far, far worse. With somehow less accountability. No one inside knows what anyone else is doing, and they're this close to just shipping boxes of parts and marking off a successful delivery of a finished good. How Boeing has avoided the Mother Lode of all Fines is a mystery to me. Except it's not really a mystery, we all know why, but . . please let me keep my illusions.
- jmalicki 4y agoSo I'm probably ignorant, but the 787? I've seen it as a great aircraft that has moved the bar significantly... there have been some issues, but I'm surprised that you wouldn't even consider it a successful program?
- DiggyJohnson 4y agoI can’t say too much, but check the deliveries on the 787 that past few months ;)
- slater 4y agoLooks like the answer is... none...? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Boeing_787_orders_and_deliveries#Orders_and_deliveries_by_type_and_year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Boeing_787_orders_and_...
- my123 4y agoBoeing halted deliveries of the 787 in May 2021 with the FAA notably citing manufacturing defects. Currently isn't resumed yet.
- CoastalCoder 4y agoWhat's the track record for huge companies successfully fixing major problems with their internal quality / engineering cultures? My impression is that usually or always the company just ends slowly dying instead. I'm thinking of IBM, and maybe Intel, GE, Boeing.
- throwaway81523 4y agoI have the impression that Microsoft has couthed up a lot since the 1990s. Idk though.
- caycep 4y agoThat's the impressive part - 2 major pivots to save the company from certain death even though they almost missed the Web, and then mobile. But maybe it's easier w/ software, less capital and physical equipment than a company building something
- WWLink 4y agoAt this point, they should be offering the highest salaries of any company in the aerospace industry to recruit the best talent, same way google does. But they're not. That's... the whole problem really.
- epolanski 4y agoWhat's the point of this plane? It's not that cheap, it's not that good for fuel efficiency, it misses most modern (decade old) systems like eicas. Seems another odd Boeing plane that woukd only sell because the competition cannot fill all orders.
- ralph84 4y agoBoeing ended production of the 757 18 years ago and they still have no strategy for a successor besides more duck tape on the 737.
- wahern 4y agoIf I understand the timeline properly, Boeing had a strategy, at least nominally: NMA, an all-new replacement for the 757. Boeing had to be brow-beat by their biggest customers to support the initiative, but at least from the outside they seemed to acquiesce. Airbus responded with the A321XLR, betting it could reach market faster. Boeing countered by dropping NMA and trying to copy the Airbus approach of racing to market with a stretch variant of their workhorse (737 MAX vs A321neo). But Airbus was actually able to execute. A321XLR is on the verge of shipping while Boeing has been caught flat footed, again. Also, A321XLR has significantly better specs than the 737 MAX 10 as the former was designed when Airbus thought it was going to compete with the NMA. 737 MAX 10 tries to be a cheaper alternative to A321XLR, but in trying to be a cheaper alternative to a cheaper alternative, Boeing lost the plot.
- throwaheyy 4y agoWhat I don’t understand is why Boeing didn’t work with the 757 instead. It’s a much newer design already comparable in size to the A321, and a new 757 variant would have had commonality with many airlines’ existing 757s and not run into the limitations Boeing has had literally “max”ing out the 737.
- aviat 4y agoBoeing 757 does not have cockpit commonality/type rating with 737 I think Boeing missed a chance to update the 757 with 787 cockpit commonality
- einpoklum 4y agoAh great, then US carriers could use their ordered 737-MAX 10's to run all of those flights they keep cancelling lately. Silver lining folks!
- ethbr0 4y ago>> "the debts that we’ve had to accumulate" Like the $5B (and counting) for bungling the KC-46 design? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_KC-46_Pegasus#Flight_tests_and_delays https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_KC-46_Pegasus#Flight_...
- MilStdJunkie 4y ago"We've had to accumulate . ." Hahaha oh nice, that is really nice. They completely blew out bond sales in the 6 months before the 737 max crisis even hit - let alone COVID - accruing 3 or 4 times as much debt as anyone else in the industry. What made them "have to" accumulate that debt? Elves? Anyone wanna guess where half that new debt was spent? C'mon, c'mon just take a guess.
- darknavi 4y agoWhat about Starliner? It is years behind schedule and a huge embarrassment to the US' play in space.
- google234123 4y ago> huge embarrassment Is a huge overstatement. SpaceX has made an equivalent capsule that has been working for more than a year. The US Gov should stop being wasteful and just cancel the other program (or redirect the money to something useful: e.g. buy more F-15s or something). It's an embarrassment to Boeing maybe, but not the US' play in space.
- Fargoan 4y agoTrash it and send some executives and managers to prison
- fffox 4y agoisn't it amazing that 350 people died and years later no one has been put in prison yet?
- Fargoan 4y agoIt's infuriating
- throwaway81523 4y agoThey did prosecute someone, which looked to me like a case of throwing an underling out of the bus, but it looks like that person was acquitted by a jury: https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/boeing-test-pilot-found-guilty-deceiving-faa-83635543 https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/boeing-test-pilot-... Former Boeing test pilot found not guilty of deceiving FAA A jury in Texas has found a former Boeing test pilot not guilty of deceiving federal regulators about a key flight-control system on the Boeing 737 Max jetliner (March 2022)
- fffox 4y agoexactly, that guy was just a fall guy. If a system / organization is designed such that the fate of something as critical as an aircraft depends on ONE test pilot, that system needs to be re-assessed. All those managers / senior engineers / decision makers should be fired / fined and the worst of them should be put in prison.
- throwaway81523 4y agoHe was in charge of the testing program at some level. He wasn't purely a pilot.
- missedthecue 4y ago
- awill 4y agoThis is literally the 'too big to fail' outcome. Boeing sucks. They're only selling planes because AirBus can't build enough for all customers. It's disappointing that mess after mess they're not held accountable. I suppose on the one hand, the U.S. wants a competitor to AB. But, AB does need a competitor, right? It's not like it's a good thing if Boeing goes away and AB has no competition.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago>They're only selling planes because AirBus can't build enough for all customers. That certainly wasn't the case for the A380. A380 is my favorite plane to fly on, but Boeing beat them badly in market analysis. The company sank 25+ Billion in A380 development and cant even cover the cost of manufacture so they shut it down. AB also received 9 billion in EU government aid for the AB380. When it comes to too big to fail, it certainly goes both ways.
- jedberg 4y agoA real shame too, I love flying on the A380. It's so big it just slides through the air like butter, and the higher cabin pressurization makes you feel more alert when you arrive (plus the fact that you probably slept better since it wasn't bouncing around as much).
- s1artibartfast 4y agoAgreed, it has some of the best business class layouts too. Unfortunately it can't land and be supported in most airports
- metadat 4y agoYes, flying first class or even coach in Emirates in an A380 was spectacular and a whole different experience than any other flying, full stop. I wish everyone could experience it.
- Markoff 4y agothey are bringing it back to service since air travel demand grown, not so sure about production
- nnoitra 4y agoIf it aint Airbus take the bus
- xwdv 4y agoIf it ain’t Boeing I ain’t going.
- shwoopdiwoop 4y agoIf it’s Boeing, I’m not going.
- bmitc 4y agoI wish there were regulations that forced airlines to make it known to customers which airplane they will be flying on. It is my understanding that airlines can post this information, but then in the end, it it up to their discretion at time of flight which plane model to use. I do not want to step on a 737 Max, if that means throwing away my Southwest points, then so be it. And searching on this, to see if Southwest had returned to using 737 Max planes, which they have, I found this: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/legal-filing-reveals-southwest-airlines-proposed-a-ploy-to-deceive-faa-on-boeing-737-max/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/legal... Seems they had a hand in all of this as well.
- sofixa 4y agoMost airlines would only have one of Airbus A320 series/737 series, so if you get a ticket for an airline only flying the former, it's highly unlikely you'll get switched to a 737 (Max or otherwise). The exception is code sharing/wet leasing/airline alliances (e.g. you might get an Iberia plane when booked with British Airways).
- OneHotEncoder 4y agoIn a way it is a good thing. They should be forced to take many steps back and look at where they bungled up. For starters, not trying to fix aerodynamic issues with software patches, and getting honest engineering back at the helm should be on the top of the list.
- structural 4y agoIt's hard when your customers are requiring you to do mutually exclusive things. First, reduce fuel consumption by significant amounts, which requires changes to aerodynamics or engines (this is just physics). Second, don't make any major changes, because major changes would be too expensive for customers to implement and make the whole project not feasible. There's no "honest engineering" that will solve the problem. This is exactly what regulators are for, because there are huge incentives for the executives on both the airline side and the Boeing side to make a deal here... everyone saves money and takes home huge bonuses.
- OneHotEncoder 4y agoTrue. And for unimaginable long term costs.
- strawhatguy 4y agoI'd say the fact the regulations are there at all, led to this issue. If there wasn't, there would be nothing to 'work around', and Boeing (and Airbus) would be more free to design the planes they and their customers wanted. As it is, we have a bunch of regulations, and obviously no greater safety; the planes designs have issues anyway, as they did here with the 737 Max. There's certainly regulatory capture going on in Boeing too, no doubt, but that's also a point for removing the regulatory system, not a point for 'making it better', usually by adding more rules, seldom subtracting rules.
- Arn_Thor 4y agoBut both of these issues can be solved, at a cost to...shareholders. And that's really where the problem lies. Since the merger, Boeing has been laser-focused on quarterly results and stock prices. In the short run that boosts equity valuations, but in the long run, as we've seen, it really hurts the company when it takes focus away from the product on which they run their business.
- trhway 4y agoSounds like Boeing is blackmailing FAA here - "Approve 737 Max 10 before the deadline for EICAS kicks in, or we wouldn't be able to get it approved under those new safety rules for a long time (and what is bad for Boeing is bad for the country)"
- xplanephil 4y agoForgive my ignorance, but what's this "deadline for EICAS" you are talking about? Are they going to change part 25 certification requirements? Is there a source, a draft document for that?
- trhway 4y agosounds like it https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers/december-deadline-could-spur-max-10-alert-system-redesign-safety-benefits-debatable/148330.article https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers/december-deadline-co...
- Glawen 4y agoOne of the main change is that yhe max 10 required the design of a new telescopic landing gear so that it fits in the 737 fuselage. https://simpleflying.com/boeing-737-max-10-extending-landing-gear/ https://simpleflying.com/boeing-737-max-10-extending-landing...
- t_mann 4y agoRecently, an Airbus A380 just continued to fly for 10h+ with a torn exterior like it was nothing. Boeing have failed to make use of a 2+ years (!) Covid-induced grace period to fix a plane that was apparently designed by accountants and MBAs rather than engineers. It is time to stop putting profits over people's safety and call an end to this debacle.