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As a German living in a city with mandatory district heating... the end result is to be that people seem pay more for heating than they would with a decentralis

As a German living in a city with mandatory district heating... the end result is to be that people seem pay more for heating than they would with a decentralised system. I think that's mostly due to the high upkeep costs of the system, though, the transmission loss is quite manageable, I think. Of course there are arguments to be made that when accounting for the cost of installing a heating system, and the space it takes, the premium paid for district heating is not that high. But still... if district heating is so smart, why ain't it cheaper? What's nice about it, and maybe hard to quantify, is how this limits air pollution in the city. However, people are still allowed wood burning ovens... which they are now all turning to since the district heat is getting really, really expensive..

teruakohatu 4y ago
> What's nice about it, and maybe hard to quantify, is how this limits air pollution in the city. It should be simple to quantify. If gas is used for heating I can't think there would be any improvement. Local heating with a heatpump would be an improvement if the power supply mix is greener than gas only, maybe worse if the power is all coal.
Symbiote 4y ago
I find district heating in Copenhagen to be good value, and it seems to be a good deal greeted. https://celsiuscity.eu/district-heating-prices-highly-competitive-in-denmark/ https://celsiuscity.eu/district-heating-prices-highly-compet...
- japanuspus 4y ago
  One reason Denmark has very affordable district heating is that it is based on "waste heat" from power plants, and "waste heat" is exempt of energy taxes (because those are paid on the primary energy sale, i.e. the electricity). This comes with some perverse incentives in an age of renewables: 1. If the power plants use surplus electricity to provide district heating it is no longer a "waste product" and consequently taxed. Since the power plant cannot run without generating electricity, this leads to periods of negative power prices. 2. Cooling water from e.g. data centers is too cold for district heating, but it would be energy efficient to use heat pumps to extract that energy. This is not done, because the product would be subject to full energy taxes as it is not a waste product.
socialdemocrat 4y ago
Here in Norway we generally pay LESS when we have district heating.
riedel 4y ago
I think from what I heard the problem with district heating in Germany is quite complex and as said probably not one of energy efficiency. It very much is as I understand a problem for a non-functioning market and problems with centralised planning. Often people e.g. need to subscribe to a higher energy base amount than they need. As there is only one player in the market and consumption is mandatory, there is few incentives to drive down cost structures and scale better with demand.
com2kid 4y ago
> As a German living in a city with mandatory district heating... the end result is to be that people seem pay more for heating than they would with a decentralised system. So, in America, it is very common for hot water tanks to suddenly fail, leaking water everywhere and causing massive amounts of property damage and even creating health hazards through mold. In a not-insane world, all hot water tanks would come with moisture meters (you can buy them at the hardware store, $20 maybe) that would alert when the tank started to fail. But no, instead, American's are just accustom to the idea that about every 10-15 years, they will have to fix some large amount of water damage. The condo complex I used to live in had a huge line item for water damage very year, insurance companies charge a large deductible because they know the damage is going to happen. Recently the condo association has taken to enforcing manual inspections of hot water heaters and requires they be replaced after 10 years, due to the large number of insurance claims that were being made. (I did suggest they just enforce the use of moisture detectors...) Oh and in condos, the hot water tanks are supposed to be hooked up to a drain so this flooding isn't an issue. But, well, apparently most of them were not hooked up properly. :/ FWIW I've seen this same issue in multiple places I've lived, apartment complexes have issues with hot water tanks going out all the time. So anyway, my point is, Americans are really bad at moving hot water around.
- pkaye 4y ago
  If they changed the anode rod on the water heater periodically it might last longer. Also the reality is that HVAC and water heater might need periodic inspections.
  - com2kid 4y ago
    I was thankful, and shocked, the one year of my life that my HVAC system didn't break down in some fashion. Hot water heaters should have leak detectors on them. They often don't. The higher end models do. Product differentiation strikes again. Last water heater I had, the anode was A-OK, I had it checked about a year prior to the water heater failing. Thermal stress destroys stuff.
    - 4y ago
GekkePrutser 4y ago
Yeah I'd hate having District heating. A friend had this in the past and she couldn't even regulate it. The house was way too hot for her. It would not work for me as I usually have the house around 16 degrees C in winter. Needless to say my energy bill is very low :)
- AnssiH 4y ago
  That's not a thing here, everyone has controllable thermostats (Finland).
- fy20 4y ago
  That's only the case with really old apartments. I live in a fairly new apartment with district heating (7 years old) and each room has its own thermostat to control the underfloor heating.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  It really shouldn't stop from regulating temperature. It is basically two heat exchangers. One for local central heating which is then controlled by what ever thermostats you have connected and one for hot water... Ofc, it the thermostats used are bad there might be problems.
- cinntaile 4y ago
  This does not sound right. You can regulate district heating when it enters your house.
  - Symbiote 4y ago
    I have seen this several times in 1950s/1960s eastern bloc apartments. I was only visiting, so I don't know if it was the original design, or if the valves have jammed.
    - konschubert 4y ago
      This was standard in the Sowjet Union. If you think it’s too warm, you open the window.
djvdq 4y ago
Here in Poland we pay much LESS with district heating than decentralized one. If I would have to pay for decentralized heating of my flat, I'd need to use natural gas. But even before nat gas proces went to the moon, it was at least Here in Poland we pay much LESS with district heating than decentralized one 2x more expensive than district heating
- hnov 4y ago
  Polish district heating is mostly coal, hence the cost savings vs imported gas.
- manmal 4y ago
  Weird - natural gas was, up until last year, the cheapest of all options in Austria. My father used to pay more in base fees and taxes than the actual gas. For some people, prices now went up by x8, so it’s now the most expensive option. Many are looking into heat pumps + solar right now.
kgeist 4y ago
>As a German living in a city with mandatory district heating... the end result is to be that people seem pay more for heating than they would with a decentralised system. True, my sister's family lives in a house with centralized heating and they pay 3-4 times more (!) per month compared to our home which simply uses an on-demand heater.
- cinntaile 4y ago
  That sounds like way too much. Individual metering can't explain such a huge difference but I do wonder if they use that?
- Gareth321 4y ago
  That sounds like some terrible bureaucracy coupled with some hybrid privatisation. I would be livid if my politicians allowed some company to profit off their de facto monopoly on a central heating grid.
  - orangepurple 4y ago
    The story of an efficient centralized system costing more than an inefficient decentralized one replays itself throughout the lives of Germans, resulting in impoverishment of the average German. Germany is a very rich country with the poorest people in Europe. Germany has a huge amount of political and corruption problems and they are covered up well. You will be shocked by the tax rate too if you tried to earn an income. Median German households are the poorest in all of Europe. Don't just take my word for it either.
cycomanic 4y ago
So if the district heating system operates on as a "quasi business" (and AFAIK most Stadtwerke do even though they are publically owned), wouldn't it make sense to price close or at the price it would cost to use other heating. That maximizes the profit.
trenchgun 4y ago
Wood burning ovens for heating in city area should not be allowed, that is just idiotic. The amount of deaths and health issues that is going to cause is really nasty.
- rosetremiere 4y ago
  Is your claim still true when air filters are installed in the chimney?
  - _whiteCaps_ 4y ago
    Wow, I never knew that chimney air filters existed. I guess I had assumed it would be impractical for a residential size chimney.
baybal2 4y ago
imtringued 4y ago
District heating is a regional monopoly in Germany.

teruakohatu 4y ago

> What's nice about it, and maybe hard to quantify, is how this limits air pollution in the city. It should be simple to quantify. If gas is used for heating I can't think there would be any improvement. Local heating with a heatpump would be an improvement if the power supply mix is greener than gas only, maybe worse if the power is all coal.

Symbiote 4y ago

I find district heating in Copenhagen to be good value, and it seems to be a good deal greeted. https://celsiuscity.eu/district-heating-prices-highly-competitive-in-denmark/ https://celsiuscity.eu/district-heating-prices-highly-compet...

japanuspus 4y ago
One reason Denmark has very affordable district heating is that it is based on "waste heat" from power plants, and "waste heat" is exempt of energy taxes (because those are paid on the primary energy sale, i.e. the electricity). This comes with some perverse incentives in an age of renewables: 1. If the power plants use surplus electricity to provide district heating it is no longer a "waste product" and consequently taxed. Since the power plant cannot run without generating electricity, this leads to periods of negative power prices. 2. Cooling water from e.g. data centers is too cold for district heating, but it would be energy efficient to use heat pumps to extract that energy. This is not done, because the product would be subject to full energy taxes as it is not a waste product.

socialdemocrat 4y ago

Here in Norway we generally pay LESS when we have district heating.

riedel 4y ago

I think from what I heard the problem with district heating in Germany is quite complex and as said probably not one of energy efficiency. It very much is as I understand a problem for a non-functioning market and problems with centralised planning. Often people e.g. need to subscribe to a higher energy base amount than they need. As there is only one player in the market and consumption is mandatory, there is few incentives to drive down cost structures and scale better with demand.

com2kid 4y ago

> As a German living in a city with mandatory district heating... the end result is to be that people seem pay more for heating than they would with a decentralised system. So, in America, it is very common for hot water tanks to suddenly fail, leaking water everywhere and causing massive amounts of property damage and even creating health hazards through mold. In a not-insane world, all hot water tanks would come with moisture meters (you can buy them at the hardware store, $20 maybe) that would alert when the tank started to fail. But no, instead, American's are just accustom to the idea that about every 10-15 years, they will have to fix some large amount of water damage. The condo complex I used to live in had a huge line item for water damage very year, insurance companies charge a large deductible because they know the damage is going to happen. Recently the condo association has taken to enforcing manual inspections of hot water heaters and requires they be replaced after 10 years, due to the large number of insurance claims that were being made. (I did suggest they just enforce the use of moisture detectors...) Oh and in condos, the hot water tanks are supposed to be hooked up to a drain so this flooding isn't an issue. But, well, apparently most of them were not hooked up properly. :/ FWIW I've seen this same issue in multiple places I've lived, apartment complexes have issues with hot water tanks going out all the time. So anyway, my point is, Americans are really bad at moving hot water around.

pkaye 4y ago
If they changed the anode rod on the water heater periodically it might last longer. Also the reality is that HVAC and water heater might need periodic inspections.
- com2kid 4y ago
  I was thankful, and shocked, the one year of my life that my HVAC system didn't break down in some fashion. Hot water heaters should have leak detectors on them. They often don't. The higher end models do. Product differentiation strikes again. Last water heater I had, the anode was A-OK, I had it checked about a year prior to the water heater failing. Thermal stress destroys stuff.
  - 4y ago

GekkePrutser 4y ago

Yeah I'd hate having District heating. A friend had this in the past and she couldn't even regulate it. The house was way too hot for her. It would not work for me as I usually have the house around 16 degrees C in winter. Needless to say my energy bill is very low :)

AnssiH 4y ago
That's not a thing here, everyone has controllable thermostats (Finland).
fy20 4y ago
That's only the case with really old apartments. I live in a fairly new apartment with district heating (7 years old) and each room has its own thermostat to control the underfloor heating.
Ekaros 4y ago
It really shouldn't stop from regulating temperature. It is basically two heat exchangers. One for local central heating which is then controlled by what ever thermostats you have connected and one for hot water... Ofc, it the thermostats used are bad there might be problems.
cinntaile 4y ago
This does not sound right. You can regulate district heating when it enters your house.
- Symbiote 4y ago
  I have seen this several times in 1950s/1960s eastern bloc apartments. I was only visiting, so I don't know if it was the original design, or if the valves have jammed.
  - konschubert 4y ago
    This was standard in the Sowjet Union. If you think it’s too warm, you open the window.

djvdq 4y ago

Here in Poland we pay much LESS with district heating than decentralized one. If I would have to pay for decentralized heating of my flat, I'd need to use natural gas. But even before nat gas proces went to the moon, it was at least Here in Poland we pay much LESS with district heating than decentralized one 2x more expensive than district heating

hnov 4y ago
Polish district heating is mostly coal, hence the cost savings vs imported gas.
manmal 4y ago
Weird - natural gas was, up until last year, the cheapest of all options in Austria. My father used to pay more in base fees and taxes than the actual gas. For some people, prices now went up by x8, so it’s now the most expensive option. Many are looking into heat pumps + solar right now.

kgeist 4y ago

>As a German living in a city with mandatory district heating... the end result is to be that people seem pay more for heating than they would with a decentralised system. True, my sister's family lives in a house with centralized heating and they pay 3-4 times more (!) per month compared to our home which simply uses an on-demand heater.

cinntaile 4y ago
That sounds like way too much. Individual metering can't explain such a huge difference but I do wonder if they use that?
Gareth321 4y ago
That sounds like some terrible bureaucracy coupled with some hybrid privatisation. I would be livid if my politicians allowed some company to profit off their de facto monopoly on a central heating grid.
- orangepurple 4y ago
  The story of an efficient centralized system costing more than an inefficient decentralized one replays itself throughout the lives of Germans, resulting in impoverishment of the average German. Germany is a very rich country with the poorest people in Europe. Germany has a huge amount of political and corruption problems and they are covered up well. You will be shocked by the tax rate too if you tried to earn an income. Median German households are the poorest in all of Europe. Don't just take my word for it either.

cycomanic 4y ago

So if the district heating system operates on as a "quasi business" (and AFAIK most Stadtwerke do even though they are publically owned), wouldn't it make sense to price close or at the price it would cost to use other heating. That maximizes the profit.

trenchgun 4y ago

Wood burning ovens for heating in city area should not be allowed, that is just idiotic. The amount of deaths and health issues that is going to cause is really nasty.

rosetremiere 4y ago
Is your claim still true when air filters are installed in the chimney?
- _whiteCaps_ 4y ago
  Wow, I never knew that chimney air filters existed. I guess I had assumed it would be impractical for a residential size chimney.

baybal2 4y ago

imtringued 4y ago

District heating is a regional monopoly in Germany.