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At the same time, if that state actor happens to be China, Apple will just give the government access to your iCloud data. Not all state actors are equally with

At the same time, if that state actor happens to be China, Apple will just give the government access to your iCloud data. Not all state actors are equally within Apple's striking range.

milesskorpen 4y ago
If you opt-in to iCloud, you're opting in to a lot of state-level security risk in any country (and this is true of any commercial cloud).
- KennyBlanken 4y ago
  Nothing stops Apple from offering e2ee backups, and in fact they do this for certain data backed up to iCloud (health data for example.) But your iMessage data...well there, your ass is hanging out in the breeze. In fact, I'm not sure it's possible to log into an iPhone with your Apple ID and not have an iCloud backup immediately fire off, which means your private encryption keys hit iCloud and stay there until it is purged according to their data retention policies. And we have no idea what those policies actually are; those keys made end up stored forever.
  - GeekyBear 4y ago
    > Nothing stops Apple from offering e2ee backups The US Government pressured them to drop a plan for fully encrypted cloud backups. >Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after the FBI complained https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv... If you want a fully encrypted backup of your device, you have to make it to your local Mac or Windows computer.
  - thewebcount 4y ago
    > I'm not sure it's possible to log into an iPhone with your Apple ID and not have an iCloud backup immediately fire off Yes, it absolutely is possible. I have never turned on iCloud backup so I have no cloud backups of any of my phones or other devices.
  - mehrdada 4y ago
    > In fact, I'm not sure it's possible to log into an iPhone with your Apple ID and not have an iCloud backup immediately fire off You are correct there’s a bit of dark pattern going on here, but it is possible (to the extent the code does what it says of course). To be extra sure I have a custom lockdown MDM profile to disallow iCloud backups, as well as a number of other nefarious things like analytics, and whenever I get a new device, I first DFU restore it to the latest iOS image to ensure software (post bootrom) isn’t tampered with, then activate and install the MDM profile via a Mac and only then I interact with the device and go through setup.
  - astrange 4y ago
    > Nothing stops Apple from offering e2ee backups, and in fact they do this for certain data backed up to iCloud (health data for example.) Almost all users can't handle this; to support people, you need to be able to recover their account when they've lost every single password and proof of identity they possibly can. It's not a backup if you can't restore it.
- Maxburn 4y ago
  We have seen reports that apple can remotely enable icloud backups and then trigger a backup.
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    Do you have more info about this?
  - nojito 4y ago
    Source? iCloud backups can only be triggered via your passcode which is secured against the secure enclave.
  - threeseed 4y ago
    This doesn't sound plausible in the slightest. The only persistent connection Apple has that I can think of to implement such a concept is for push notifications. Which would be a massive security hole if a HTTP response to that daemon was capable of bypassing the lock screen, secure enclave etc. And the logical question is if they had such a system why would they bother triggering an iCloud Backup when they could ask the device to specifically hand over certain information e.g. Messages. Which at least could be done quietly over Cellular.
    - smoldesu 4y ago
      > Which would be a massive security hole if a HTTP response to that daemon was capable of bypassing the lock screen, secure enclave etc. I mean, Apple has killswitches for every iPhone they ship. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if that suite of tools also included settings management (MacOS has such a thing built-in, fwiw).
KerrAvon 4y ago
What makes you think so?
- shard 4y ago
  "Apple is moving some of the personal data of Chinese customers to a data center in Guiyang that is owned and operated by the Chinese government. State employees physically manage the facility and servers and have direct access to the data stored there; Apple has already abandoned encryption in China due to state limitations that render it ineffective." https://www.cpomagazine.com/data-privacy/icloud-data-turned-over-to-chinese-government-conflicts-with-apples-privacy-first-focus/ https://www.cpomagazine.com/data-privacy/icloud-data-turned-...
  - KennyBlanken 4y ago
    Apple has abandoned encryption for everyone in iCloud. You cannot encrypt anything except a limited subset of your device's data (Apple Health data, mostly.)
    - kmeisthax 4y ago
      In Apple's defense E2E encryption also makes it a lot easier to get locked out of your photos and device backups. IMHO it should still be an option but only as part of Lockdown Mode, with the explicit caveat that turning it on risks losing data.
      - holmesworcester 4y ago
        That may be true, but Reuters reported that Apple had a plan for it (which means they felt it was workable) and dropped it due to pressure from FBI/DOJ. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv... Also, there are many users who would benefit from e2ee iCloud backups who are not targets of NSO Group-type attacks, so I don't think it makes sense to make it only available in "Lockdown Mode".
jonny_eh 4y ago
> Apple will just give the government access to your iCloud data "You" only means you if you're a Chinese citizen.
- savoytruffle 4y ago
  resident
ivraatiems 4y ago
I mean, since your phone was made there by a Chinese company, what's to stop the government from just forcing a backdoor in at the factory?
Matl 4y ago
It is worth mentioning that things like National Security Letters exist in the US. It is also the US who made Apple back off of encrypting iCloud backups E2E. I wish we were more willing to cite our own government(s) as the bad actors here, rather than pretending that we have to reach for China/Russia/North Korea to find the kind of behavior Apple is attempting to protect its users against here.
- closewith 4y ago
  Not to mention the CLOUD (Clarifying Lawful Overseas Use of Data) Act, which was enacted following a case in 2014 where Microsoft refused to hand over emails stored in the EU (an Irish data centre, in that case) on foot of a domestic US warrant. The CLOUD Act expressly brings data stored by US-based companies anywhere in the world under the purview of US warrants and subpoenas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLOUD_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLOUD_Act
  - gzer0 4y ago
    How well does this play out with things like GDPR? I can only find one sentence about it but this seems like a direct conflict. Who wins? The USA, the EU, no one, everyone?
    - xet7 4y ago
      USA cloud services are not GDPR compliant: https://nextcloud.com/blog/the-new-transatlantic-data-privacy-framework-fails-to-make-us-cloud-services-gdpr-compliant/ https://nextcloud.com/blog/the-new-transatlantic-data-privac...
    - closewith 4y ago
      It's part of the reason that Privacy Shield collapsed and why the US isn't considered to offer adequate protection to EU residents. It's currently being both litigated (as more and more EU country data protection agencies make individual rulings that specific instances of transfers of personal data to US companies are unlawful) and the subject of intense political negotiation between the EU and US. Most companies affected are currently awaiting the results of these processes, because following the current precedent to it's logical conclusion, it appears unlawful to transfer any personal data of an EU resident to a US-based company (even if that data remains physically in the EU or another adequate country). That would obviously have catastrophic consequences for the current status quo, so it's hard to believe that a compromise won't be found to avoid it. However, it's also hard to see a compromise unless the United States exempts EU data subjects from the CLOUD Act, which seem unlikely. Hard to know where it'll go.
kube-system 4y ago
Yes, this is Apple protecting you against extralegal state actor threats. There's not really much Apple can do to protect you against the laws of your own country.
acomar 4y ago
and if the state actor happens to be the US? which of these tech companies do you expect to look after you then?

At the same time, if that state actor happens to be China, Apple will just give the government access to your iCloud data. Not all state actors are equally within Apple's striking range.

milesskorpen 4y ago

If you opt-in to iCloud, you're opting in to a lot of state-level security risk in any country (and this is true of any commercial cloud).

KennyBlanken 4y ago
Nothing stops Apple from offering e2ee backups, and in fact they do this for certain data backed up to iCloud (health data for example.) But your iMessage data...well there, your ass is hanging out in the breeze. In fact, I'm not sure it's possible to log into an iPhone with your Apple ID and not have an iCloud backup immediately fire off, which means your private encryption keys hit iCloud and stay there until it is purged according to their data retention policies. And we have no idea what those policies actually are; those keys made end up stored forever.
- GeekyBear 4y ago
  > Nothing stops Apple from offering e2ee backups The US Government pressured them to drop a plan for fully encrypted cloud backups. >Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after the FBI complained https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv... If you want a fully encrypted backup of your device, you have to make it to your local Mac or Windows computer.
- thewebcount 4y ago
  > I'm not sure it's possible to log into an iPhone with your Apple ID and not have an iCloud backup immediately fire off Yes, it absolutely is possible. I have never turned on iCloud backup so I have no cloud backups of any of my phones or other devices.
- mehrdada 4y ago
  > In fact, I'm not sure it's possible to log into an iPhone with your Apple ID and not have an iCloud backup immediately fire off You are correct there’s a bit of dark pattern going on here, but it is possible (to the extent the code does what it says of course). To be extra sure I have a custom lockdown MDM profile to disallow iCloud backups, as well as a number of other nefarious things like analytics, and whenever I get a new device, I first DFU restore it to the latest iOS image to ensure software (post bootrom) isn’t tampered with, then activate and install the MDM profile via a Mac and only then I interact with the device and go through setup.
- astrange 4y ago
  > Nothing stops Apple from offering e2ee backups, and in fact they do this for certain data backed up to iCloud (health data for example.) Almost all users can't handle this; to support people, you need to be able to recover their account when they've lost every single password and proof of identity they possibly can. It's not a backup if you can't restore it.
Maxburn 4y ago
We have seen reports that apple can remotely enable icloud backups and then trigger a backup.
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  Do you have more info about this?
- nojito 4y ago
  Source? iCloud backups can only be triggered via your passcode which is secured against the secure enclave.
- threeseed 4y ago
  This doesn't sound plausible in the slightest. The only persistent connection Apple has that I can think of to implement such a concept is for push notifications. Which would be a massive security hole if a HTTP response to that daemon was capable of bypassing the lock screen, secure enclave etc. And the logical question is if they had such a system why would they bother triggering an iCloud Backup when they could ask the device to specifically hand over certain information e.g. Messages. Which at least could be done quietly over Cellular.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    > Which would be a massive security hole if a HTTP response to that daemon was capable of bypassing the lock screen, secure enclave etc. I mean, Apple has killswitches for every iPhone they ship. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if that suite of tools also included settings management (MacOS has such a thing built-in, fwiw).

KerrAvon 4y ago

What makes you think so?

shard 4y ago
"Apple is moving some of the personal data of Chinese customers to a data center in Guiyang that is owned and operated by the Chinese government. State employees physically manage the facility and servers and have direct access to the data stored there; Apple has already abandoned encryption in China due to state limitations that render it ineffective." https://www.cpomagazine.com/data-privacy/icloud-data-turned-over-to-chinese-government-conflicts-with-apples-privacy-first-focus/ https://www.cpomagazine.com/data-privacy/icloud-data-turned-...
- KennyBlanken 4y ago
  Apple has abandoned encryption for everyone in iCloud. You cannot encrypt anything except a limited subset of your device's data (Apple Health data, mostly.)
  - kmeisthax 4y ago
    In Apple's defense E2E encryption also makes it a lot easier to get locked out of your photos and device backups. IMHO it should still be an option but only as part of Lockdown Mode, with the explicit caveat that turning it on risks losing data.
    - holmesworcester 4y ago
      That may be true, but Reuters reported that Apple had a plan for it (which means they felt it was workable) and dropped it due to pressure from FBI/DOJ. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv... Also, there are many users who would benefit from e2ee iCloud backups who are not targets of NSO Group-type attacks, so I don't think it makes sense to make it only available in "Lockdown Mode".

jonny_eh 4y ago

> Apple will just give the government access to your iCloud data "You" only means you if you're a Chinese citizen.

savoytruffle 4y ago
resident

ivraatiems 4y ago

I mean, since your phone was made there by a Chinese company, what's to stop the government from just forcing a backdoor in at the factory?

Matl 4y ago

It is worth mentioning that things like National Security Letters exist in the US. It is also the US who made Apple back off of encrypting iCloud backups E2E. I wish we were more willing to cite our own government(s) as the bad actors here, rather than pretending that we have to reach for China/Russia/North Korea to find the kind of behavior Apple is attempting to protect its users against here.

closewith 4y ago
Not to mention the CLOUD (Clarifying Lawful Overseas Use of Data) Act, which was enacted following a case in 2014 where Microsoft refused to hand over emails stored in the EU (an Irish data centre, in that case) on foot of a domestic US warrant. The CLOUD Act expressly brings data stored by US-based companies anywhere in the world under the purview of US warrants and subpoenas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLOUD_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLOUD_Act
- gzer0 4y ago
  How well does this play out with things like GDPR? I can only find one sentence about it but this seems like a direct conflict. Who wins? The USA, the EU, no one, everyone?
  - xet7 4y ago
    USA cloud services are not GDPR compliant: https://nextcloud.com/blog/the-new-transatlantic-data-privacy-framework-fails-to-make-us-cloud-services-gdpr-compliant/ https://nextcloud.com/blog/the-new-transatlantic-data-privac...
  - closewith 4y ago
    It's part of the reason that Privacy Shield collapsed and why the US isn't considered to offer adequate protection to EU residents. It's currently being both litigated (as more and more EU country data protection agencies make individual rulings that specific instances of transfers of personal data to US companies are unlawful) and the subject of intense political negotiation between the EU and US. Most companies affected are currently awaiting the results of these processes, because following the current precedent to it's logical conclusion, it appears unlawful to transfer any personal data of an EU resident to a US-based company (even if that data remains physically in the EU or another adequate country). That would obviously have catastrophic consequences for the current status quo, so it's hard to believe that a compromise won't be found to avoid it. However, it's also hard to see a compromise unless the United States exempts EU data subjects from the CLOUD Act, which seem unlikely. Hard to know where it'll go.

kube-system 4y ago

Yes, this is Apple protecting you against extralegal state actor threats. There's not really much Apple can do to protect you against the laws of your own country.

acomar 4y ago

and if the state actor happens to be the US? which of these tech companies do you expect to look after you then?