5 ms·

Considering the imminent food shortages due to the double whammy of blocked Ukrainian exports and global fertilizer shortage, closing farms for greenhouse emiss

by causi 4y ago

Considering the imminent food shortages due to the double whammy of blocked Ukrainian exports and global fertilizer shortage, closing farms for greenhouse emissions seems like a spectacularly bad idea.

yessirwhatever 4y ago
Same applies to closing down nuclear reactors and coal mines over the last decade in some countries in Europe.
- loopdoend 4y ago
  Perhaps nuclear can still save us
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
niek_pas 4y ago
It’s important to note that much of the food produced by these farms is exported, so national food prices may not be affected as much as you would think.
- vimy 4y ago
  People are gonna starve because of these closures.
  - niek_pas 4y ago
    Maybe. People are going to drown if we do not act to reduce nitrogen emissions (And eating less meat would significantly reduce emissions, but that seems unlikely to happen on a large scale)
    - myshpa 4y ago
      Who knows where we will be in another few years ... "... 44% of consumers in Germany follow a low-meat diet, which is a significant increase from 2014 (26%). Similarly, 6% of US consumers now claim to be vegan, up from just 1% in 2014" [from 2017] https://www.reportbuyer.com/product/4959853/top-trends-in-prepared-foods-exploring-trends-in-meat-fish-and-seafood-pasta-noodles-and-rice-prepared-meals-savory-deli-food-soup-and-meat-substitutes.html https://www.reportbuyer.com/product/4959853/top-trends-in-pr... "The number of vegans in Great Britain quadrupled between 2014 and 2019" "The 400% increase of vegans in the UK is shocking, but the 1,500% increase in plant-based food sales in the UK is even more shocking. " "In 2022, research by ProVeg found that 51% of Germans had reduced their meat intake in the previous year" "In 2022, research commissioned by ProVeg Netherlands found that 28% of Dutch people want to see a future without meat, and 20% would like to see the government ban slaughterhouses" " Research conducted in 2021 by Rakuten found that 82% of consumers in the US have tried plant milk, 40% have tried other vegan dairy alternatives, 62% have tried plant-based meats and 22% have tried vegan egg replacements. Key motivations included health (35%), wanting to try a food trend (41%), and concern for animals (23%). The same research found that 5% of respondents said that they only consume plant-based foods"" https://www.vegansociety.com/news/media/statistics/worldwide https://www.vegansociety.com/news/media/statistics/worldwide
- sampo 4y ago
  But people in those countries, where Netherlands has traditionally exported food, might suffer food shortages?
  - jeroenhd 4y ago
    It depends on how the world is going to react. If cattle farms shut down, large swathes of land suddenly become available to more efficient food production as the need for farm animal feed decreases. Huge amounts of food is being processed into animal feed which in turn ends up producing relatively little food. I like my meats as much as the next guy, but in a world hit by a food shortage caused the Russian invasion, using more arable land to feed people instead of cows seems like the obvious choice.
  - stingraycharles 4y ago
    We’re talking about an 8 year period, and all things considered, we’re not that big a player for cow meat exports. But it has a significant impact on a small and densely populated country.
- secondcoming 4y ago
  Traditionally exported, or still today? What foods do they produce that isn't consumed in the Netherlands?
  - trash_goblin 4y ago
- mc32 4y ago
  Depending on what’s grown it can be affected if it’s part of a global marketplace. Oil for example doesn’t care where it’s produced but a drop in production anywhere will cause a spike in prices everywhere except for places that subsidize the price (Venezuela and Iran for example).
  - niek_pas 4y ago
    This is true, and it’s why I said “as much as you think”. There seems to exist a narrative that these farmers are producing “our” food, which is incorrect.
JoeNr76 4y ago
The article is wrong. I don't get how this could make it to the top. It has nothing to do with greenhouse emissions, but with nitrogen compound emission. See https://www.dutchnews.nl/features/2022/06/whats-all-the-fuss-about-nitrogen-in-the-netherlands/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/features/2022/06/whats-all-the-fuss... (the first english source I could find) The source is mostly cattle. Which doesn't make up for Ukrainian grain.
- baobob 4y ago
  How does a car compare to a cow?
  - elsjaako 4y ago
    About 45% of these emissions come from farms, 12% from cars. The national speed limit was lowered from 130 to 100 km/hr to deal with this issue (happened a few years ago)
  - swader999 4y ago
    Plants turn CO2 into proteins and sugars. One of two things happens. Either the cattle eat the plants and process them or the plants rot and produce CO2 and Methane which quickly becomes CO2. Animals eat the plant some of the CO2 is stored as fat and protein. The remainder is exuded in the form of cowshit and farts. The cowshit goes back to the soil and into plants. The Methane produced quickly becomes CO2 which is, AGAIN, used by the plants to produce plant growth. How is a single atom of carbon actually created in any of this? Sure ,if animal numbers suddenly expand rapidly, you get a very very minute increase in Methane levels. The effect is indiscernible in reality.
- mastazi 4y ago
  > The source is mostly cattle. Which doesn't make up for Ukrainian grain. I would expect that the more food shortages become severe, the more different types of food become fungible. You might think this happens only in extreme cases, but as a "poor" Uni student I don't remember eating expensive food very often. And I was living in one of the richest countries on earth. Single parents, people in disadvantaged communities etc., even in first-world countries, have the problem of putting food on the plate, and they don't really have the luxury to think about what type of food that is.
swader999 4y ago
Sri Lanka is a recent case study.
verisimi 4y ago
Yes, its almost as if the actions of the last few years were planned to cause a massive catastrophic societal collapse that will have us begging for smart cities, green passes and all the other technocratic essentials that have been long in the planning. Technocrats are lucky, I guess.
stingraycharles 4y ago
The Netherlands is a small, densely populated country with a huge farming export surplus, with a very large industry (and lobby) behind them. This also isn’t about plantations, but livestock. Cows mostly. So nothing related to fertilisers at all. A few years ago a judge ruled that the way the government calculated the emissions were incorrect, and now the government is basically forced to act. As these livestock farms account for a huge amount of nitrogen compound emissions, the most pain will be felt here. This was known for many years though, but now the reality is here and shit hit the fan. In general, I think all this is also a symptom of the general distrust in the government, frustration that has been building up, and there’s quite some overlap in this protesting community and the “covid is a hoax” group. It attracts some very weird people.
- bpodgursky 4y ago
  The point is that the world is facing a massive food shortage this year, and anything that reduces food supply will result in more starvation in the third world. This just just not good timing.
  - clmul 4y ago
    The reduction in farm animals isn't going to happen within a year (there are not even very concrete plans yet), this will likely be a very long process.
  - stingraycharles 4y ago
    These farms will be closed over an 8 year period (hopefully), and farms have been closed over the past years as well. It’s just the protests that are happening now, the actual effects are spread over years and years.
    - nradov 4y ago
      Why are you hopeful about closing farms? I don't understand that.
      - 4y ago
masklinn 4y ago
> Considering the imminent food shortages There are no imminent global food shortages. Wheat futures are literally crashing right now because the entire thing was FUD-driven financial speculation: https://www.wsj.com/market-data/quotes/futures/W00 https://www.wsj.com/market-data/quotes/futures/W00 There are (and are going to be) local food shortages, in countries which relied on ukraine specifically as they need new supply lines, and the speculation has done the opposite of helping by pricing them out. And then also in other low-wealth countries which the speculation has also priced out, there the speculation alone creates the food shortages.
oever 4y ago
If there is less cattle, less farmland is needed to grow fodder. That farmland is then available for growing food for people. This way the same amount of farmland can feed more people. Reducing cattle farming increases the efficiency of food production.
KaiserPro 4y ago
No, the article is about cow shit.

by causi 4y ago

yessirwhatever 4y ago

Same applies to closing down nuclear reactors and coal mines over the last decade in some countries in Europe.

loopdoend 4y ago
Perhaps nuclear can still save us
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

niek_pas 4y ago

It’s important to note that much of the food produced by these farms is exported, so national food prices may not be affected as much as you would think.

vimy 4y ago
People are gonna starve because of these closures.
- niek_pas 4y ago
  Maybe. People are going to drown if we do not act to reduce nitrogen emissions (And eating less meat would significantly reduce emissions, but that seems unlikely to happen on a large scale)
  - myshpa 4y ago
    Who knows where we will be in another few years ... "... 44% of consumers in Germany follow a low-meat diet, which is a significant increase from 2014 (26%). Similarly, 6% of US consumers now claim to be vegan, up from just 1% in 2014" [from 2017] https://www.reportbuyer.com/product/4959853/top-trends-in-prepared-foods-exploring-trends-in-meat-fish-and-seafood-pasta-noodles-and-rice-prepared-meals-savory-deli-food-soup-and-meat-substitutes.html https://www.reportbuyer.com/product/4959853/top-trends-in-pr... "The number of vegans in Great Britain quadrupled between 2014 and 2019" "The 400% increase of vegans in the UK is shocking, but the 1,500% increase in plant-based food sales in the UK is even more shocking. " "In 2022, research by ProVeg found that 51% of Germans had reduced their meat intake in the previous year" "In 2022, research commissioned by ProVeg Netherlands found that 28% of Dutch people want to see a future without meat, and 20% would like to see the government ban slaughterhouses" " Research conducted in 2021 by Rakuten found that 82% of consumers in the US have tried plant milk, 40% have tried other vegan dairy alternatives, 62% have tried plant-based meats and 22% have tried vegan egg replacements. Key motivations included health (35%), wanting to try a food trend (41%), and concern for animals (23%). The same research found that 5% of respondents said that they only consume plant-based foods"" https://www.vegansociety.com/news/media/statistics/worldwide https://www.vegansociety.com/news/media/statistics/worldwide
sampo 4y ago
But people in those countries, where Netherlands has traditionally exported food, might suffer food shortages?
- jeroenhd 4y ago
  It depends on how the world is going to react. If cattle farms shut down, large swathes of land suddenly become available to more efficient food production as the need for farm animal feed decreases. Huge amounts of food is being processed into animal feed which in turn ends up producing relatively little food. I like my meats as much as the next guy, but in a world hit by a food shortage caused the Russian invasion, using more arable land to feed people instead of cows seems like the obvious choice.
- stingraycharles 4y ago
  We’re talking about an 8 year period, and all things considered, we’re not that big a player for cow meat exports. But it has a significant impact on a small and densely populated country.
secondcoming 4y ago
Traditionally exported, or still today? What foods do they produce that isn't consumed in the Netherlands?
- trash_goblin 4y ago
mc32 4y ago
Depending on what’s grown it can be affected if it’s part of a global marketplace. Oil for example doesn’t care where it’s produced but a drop in production anywhere will cause a spike in prices everywhere except for places that subsidize the price (Venezuela and Iran for example).
- niek_pas 4y ago
  This is true, and it’s why I said “as much as you think”. There seems to exist a narrative that these farmers are producing “our” food, which is incorrect.

JoeNr76 4y ago

The article is wrong. I don't get how this could make it to the top. It has nothing to do with greenhouse emissions, but with nitrogen compound emission. See https://www.dutchnews.nl/features/2022/06/whats-all-the-fuss-about-nitrogen-in-the-netherlands/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/features/2022/06/whats-all-the-fuss... (the first english source I could find) The source is mostly cattle. Which doesn't make up for Ukrainian grain.

baobob 4y ago
How does a car compare to a cow?
- elsjaako 4y ago
  About 45% of these emissions come from farms, 12% from cars. The national speed limit was lowered from 130 to 100 km/hr to deal with this issue (happened a few years ago)
- swader999 4y ago
  Plants turn CO2 into proteins and sugars. One of two things happens. Either the cattle eat the plants and process them or the plants rot and produce CO2 and Methane which quickly becomes CO2. Animals eat the plant some of the CO2 is stored as fat and protein. The remainder is exuded in the form of cowshit and farts. The cowshit goes back to the soil and into plants. The Methane produced quickly becomes CO2 which is, AGAIN, used by the plants to produce plant growth. How is a single atom of carbon actually created in any of this? Sure ,if animal numbers suddenly expand rapidly, you get a very very minute increase in Methane levels. The effect is indiscernible in reality.
mastazi 4y ago
> The source is mostly cattle. Which doesn't make up for Ukrainian grain. I would expect that the more food shortages become severe, the more different types of food become fungible. You might think this happens only in extreme cases, but as a "poor" Uni student I don't remember eating expensive food very often. And I was living in one of the richest countries on earth. Single parents, people in disadvantaged communities etc., even in first-world countries, have the problem of putting food on the plate, and they don't really have the luxury to think about what type of food that is.

swader999 4y ago

Sri Lanka is a recent case study.

verisimi 4y ago

Yes, its almost as if the actions of the last few years were planned to cause a massive catastrophic societal collapse that will have us begging for smart cities, green passes and all the other technocratic essentials that have been long in the planning. Technocrats are lucky, I guess.

stingraycharles 4y ago

The Netherlands is a small, densely populated country with a huge farming export surplus, with a very large industry (and lobby) behind them. This also isn’t about plantations, but livestock. Cows mostly. So nothing related to fertilisers at all. A few years ago a judge ruled that the way the government calculated the emissions were incorrect, and now the government is basically forced to act. As these livestock farms account for a huge amount of nitrogen compound emissions, the most pain will be felt here. This was known for many years though, but now the reality is here and shit hit the fan. In general, I think all this is also a symptom of the general distrust in the government, frustration that has been building up, and there’s quite some overlap in this protesting community and the “covid is a hoax” group. It attracts some very weird people.

bpodgursky 4y ago
The point is that the world is facing a massive food shortage this year, and anything that reduces food supply will result in more starvation in the third world. This just just not good timing.
- clmul 4y ago
  The reduction in farm animals isn't going to happen within a year (there are not even very concrete plans yet), this will likely be a very long process.
- stingraycharles 4y ago
  These farms will be closed over an 8 year period (hopefully), and farms have been closed over the past years as well. It’s just the protests that are happening now, the actual effects are spread over years and years.
  - nradov 4y ago
    Why are you hopeful about closing farms? I don't understand that.
    - 4y ago

masklinn 4y ago

> Considering the imminent food shortages There are no imminent global food shortages. Wheat futures are literally crashing right now because the entire thing was FUD-driven financial speculation: https://www.wsj.com/market-data/quotes/futures/W00 https://www.wsj.com/market-data/quotes/futures/W00 There are (and are going to be) local food shortages, in countries which relied on ukraine specifically as they need new supply lines, and the speculation has done the opposite of helping by pricing them out. And then also in other low-wealth countries which the speculation has also priced out, there the speculation alone creates the food shortages.

oever 4y ago

If there is less cattle, less farmland is needed to grow fodder. That farmland is then available for growing food for people. This way the same amount of farmland can feed more people. Reducing cattle farming increases the efficiency of food production.

KaiserPro 4y ago

No, the article is about cow shit.