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Car Quality Is Slipping
- midislack 4y agoToyota post tsunami has gone into the trash, can confirm. Keep your < 2012's.
- jagger27 4y agoMazda has really stepped up their game lately. I love my Miata.
- joshu 4y agoobligatory: miata is always the answer
- krnlpnc 4y agoSome of the best cars on the market today imho
- ed312 4y agoNot really fair to compare average cars to literally the best car <$100k USD... More seriously, my leased CX-30 has a ton of features and fit&finish improvements over most "mid-range" brands at a very competitive price. I was deeply unimpressed with the Subaru Crosstrek and Honda CRV specifically.
- causi 4y agoThat's tragic. My 1980 and 2007 Toyotas are both going strong.
- hijinks 4y agomy 2019 4runner is running great. Mostly because they haven't really changed anything with it cept the look since 2012
- guhidalg 4y agoYou know, just because Toyota is a Japanese company does not mean that all Toyota cars are made in Japan. https://www.novatotoyota.com/blog/what-toyota-vehicles-are-made-in-the-usa/ https://www.novatotoyota.com/blog/what-toyota-vehicles-are-m... How exactly did the tsunami affect Toyotas manufactured in the US pray tell?
- midislack 4y agoYou think they have all US parts? Interesting.
- causi 4y agoElectric vehicles (EVs) performed worse than gas-powered models in the study. EVs had 240 complaints per 100 vehicles on average, plug-in hybrid vehicles had 239, and gas-powered cars averaged 175. This never fails to baffle me. An ICE vehicle has a hundred times as many moving parts as a BeV. Just how much lower is the BeV production quality to give them more problems?
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- atwood22 4y agoWhile ICE are more complicated, they’ve been around longer. The QA process for ICE vehicles is probably better established. As more data is collected on common BeV issues, more defects will be able to be caught by the factory.
- hijinks 4y agoi believe it given 2 neighbors own teslas. One neighbor has had his car in the shop longer then he's owned it. The other is on his 5th warranty call. Yes I'm sure they are outliers but with all new tech people that are early adopters will pay the price.
- mikepurvis 4y agoI've seen assertions that it's basically always been like this, but until recently the Musk RDF has helped maintain extremely high reported-satisfaction numbers, despite problems that would never be tolerated on any other vehicle, much less other vehicles in that price point. But it's definitely changing as they try to go mass market. Some rich cat buying a Model S as their third or fourth vehicle has very different expectations/needs than a middle class family getting a Model 3 to be their only car and a daily driver. I have a few friends/neighbours interested in going electric who have recognized this and explicitly chosen to go with the offerings from traditional manufacturers over Tesla— the Kia Soul, Polestar, and in one case a Taycan. Maybe there isn't folksy stuff like plaid mode, farting seats, and biohazard protection, but that long-standing design experience does seem lead to more solid basics like safe, functional interiors, doors and windows that work, and no surprise OTA updates that move around important features in the glass cockpit.
- abfan1127 4y agoInitial quality always seemed like a silly measure to me. I'm more interested in total cost of ownership through 150k-200k miles. Own a GM for 90 days vs own a GM for 15 years and you'll have vastly different results, IMO.
- ramesh31 4y agoReality is that no one owns a car for 200k miles anymore. There are of course outliers, but the vast majority of people are either buying/leasing/trading every 3-4 years, or are at the opposite end of the spectrum buying whatever cheap rust heap they can keep running.
- lostcolony 4y agoCitation needed.
- lotsofpulp 4y agoAlmost everyone derives value from existing cars either by using or selling it. I also would need concrete data to believe most people are swapping cars willy nilly. Based on income/wealth statistics, most Americans most certainly cannot afford to.
- alexpotato 4y agoThey can afford it if lenders are giving car loans to just about anyone: https://twitter.com/GrahamStephan/status/1542860348742836225 https://twitter.com/GrahamStephan/status/1542860348742836225
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- krnlpnc 4y agoJ.D. Power isn’t an unbiased review. There is zero chance that Dodge and Chevy have real world reliability greater than makes like Toyota, Honda and Mazda. They also play games like counting “problems” without a weight. Infotainment problem fixed in firmware and transmission problem both increment the count by 1?
- 10000truths 4y agoThere's a whole YouTube channel dedicated to satirizing Chevy commercials and their reliance on "real people" and J.D. Power marketing: https://www.youtube.com/c/ZebraCorner https://www.youtube.com/c/ZebraCorner
- exhilaration 4y agoThank you, that was fantastic, here's the JD Power video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSBsq6HBBzw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSBsq6HBBzw
- citizenpaul 4y agoThis is the best part of my day and almost certainly my week. Haven't laughed that hard in a while.
- gamblor956 4y agoThe J.D. Power article notes that the "initial quality" of cars is slipping, meaning problems reported in the first 90 days. It's very possible for Dodge and Chevy to have greater initial quality (meaning fewer reported problems) but worse real-world reliability than their Japanese counterparts. Dodge, for example, is notorious for using parts that wear down quickly. Also, Dodge and Chevy have more vehicles that target the low end of the market, where people are more likely to just accept small problems with the car as part of the cheap car experience.
- datavirtue 4y agoIt's easy to improve when you are the worst.
- andreasha 4y agohttps://archive.ph/alVjI https://archive.ph/alVjI
- MisterTea 4y agoMo' tech mo' problems. Just give me a car that goes forward, backwards, left and right with a roof, windows, seats with few luxuries: air conditioning, power locks/windows, remote start (winter savior). For safety I will take ABS, maybe ESP. Leave me an industry standard DIN or double DIN opening for a radio and speaker locations; factory options always suck. Transmission can be manual or automatic. The rest is fluff that easily breaks.
- ramesh31 4y agoThis why the late 90's to early 2000s was objectively the greatest era for reliable good cars. You had everything that makes a modern car great; standard ABS, disc brakes, cruise control, power locks/windows, reliable traditional automatic transmissions, ECU/fuel injection, airbags, etc. without all of the unnecessary nonsense that has made cars insanely expensive over the last 20 years
- drfuchs 4y agoThen again, I remember when your list of "great" features was exactly what was perceived as making "cars insanely expensive" and unreliable at the time. And a generation or two earlier, it was seatbelts, headrests, fuel injectors replacing carburetors, power windows, digital clocks instead of mechanical(!), digital radio tuning instead of mechanical(!!), etc., all of which many folks complained were just being added to drive up the MSRP. On the flip side, having experienced post-2000 adaptive cruise control, rear-view camera, blind-spot indicators in side-view mirrors, auto-release emergency brake, integration with phone for Waze and such, etc., I would not want to go back. Indeed, I find myself noticeably annoyed when a car rental is missing any of these features.
- fomine3 4y agoI'd like to have camera, ESP and AEB.
- groovybits 4y agoNot the most imperative metrics, but CarMax says that the majority of car buyers have different priorities in their purchase: https://www.carmax.com/articles/stick-shift-index https://www.carmax.com/articles/stick-shift-index Anecdotally, I don't know anyone - outside of car enthusiasts - who drive a manual. Not only would they not consider it, a manual would be a non-starter. Note: I used to drive a manual, and I am in the first half of my lifespan.
- dispatchapp 4y agoMy 2014 WRX has had a myriad of reliability issues. Bone stock, always maintained, and just constantly going into the dealer for issues. Thankfully I have an extended warranty. Issue #1: 19k miles - OEM turbo blows. Subaru FSE determines a bearing seized prematurely. Turbo replaced. Issue #2: 23k miles - Replacement turbo starts making more sounds mimicking the same noises the OEM turbo made before it blew. Subaru replaces it again. Issue #3: 28k miles - Third turbo goes bad yet again. I cause more of a ruckus at Subaru and they call in an another FSE. FSE determined that all of the turbos blowing caused metal shards to shoot into the engine and that's why the turbos keep blowing. They ended up replacing the long block as well. Issue #4: 8/1/16 - Car goes back after I keep hearing a rasp. Subaru determined that it wasn't the exhaust shields as suspected and called in an yet another FSE. The FSE determined that the clutch that went bad prematurely. Other misc issues they addressed during this visit: - Rear seat driver side window has some sort of regulator issue/noise - Plastic bezel on the radio is peeling - Creaky clutch and brake pedal Issue #5: Burning odor from transmission. Subaru says its not an issue. Issue #6: Yesterday, driving home from Burlington VT to NYC. Reverse gear fails. No reverse option. Third gear also pops out. It's one of the most fun cars I have ever driven but Jesus it's a nightmare to go to Subaru non-stop. I am contemplating getting a 2022 WRX and attributing all the issues to it being a Lemon...
- oldstrangers 4y agoSubaru and the WRX is just notoriously unreliable, and that's always sort of been the case unfortunately.
- dispatchapp 4y agoYep, my alternative which I don't even know if its a good idea or not is to get a used E350 off BringATrailer or if I really want reliability I should probably get a 1980s Mercedes 300D. The W123s are insanely reliable.
- dieselgate 4y agoOr basically any pre-2004 diesel from VW, Ford, Mercedes, or Dodge :) Edit/addendum: I personally strongly encourage the use of biodiesel or appropriate diesel alternatives where applicable, pre 2004 are often more compatible with biodiesel. Would still take any diesel vehicle over gas
- wallaBBB 4y agoThese type of articles that do not breakdown the type of complaints are worthless. The trend of increased complaints has been present for a few years now, but when broken down the increase comes vastly from infotainment and SW related issues. And it is expected, SW complexity in the infotainment part has skyrocketed and automotive companies are in their core HW companies, not SW companies and are slow to adapt. I wouldn't consider infotainment complaints to be a sign of drop in reliability.
- kube-system 4y agoInfotainment complaints are not necessarily an issue with the car, either. They could just as easily be someone who has an issue with their phone, or someone who doesn't know what they're doing.
- hedora 4y agoYeah; the infotainment system in our Ram has only had one major issue. So did the transmission, tailgate, exhaust manifold, and cruise control. Two of those five issues were life threatening, and one could strand the car. The infotainment problem is comparatively minor: Sometimes it corrupts the GPS azimuth(?) data.
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- fomine3 4y agoAgree but if climate control is integrated with infotainment system, I'd call it drop in reliability
- quartz 4y ago> EVs Reported More Problems I think it's important to keep in mind that 1) ICEs are many generations beyond EVs so it's natural to expect more issues but also 2) ICE vehicles came into being in an age where maintenance was assumed to be inherited with the vehicle (and a lot of it if not all of it could be done by the owner or a neighborhood mechanic) while PHEVs were born into the "weld the hood shut" generation of owners and can only really be worked on by dealers and certified professionals. I'm very handy with cars but when I bought my PHEV for the first time ever I also bought the extended warranty and any time anything happens that car goes straight to the dealer because not only is the process for fixing EV components alien to me, but they're also not built to be user-serviceable in the first place and there's limited to no documentation out there.
- dieselgate 4y agoI agree with you but didn’t Toyota have a recent recall due to wheels having the potential of falling off? This is probably quite an exception but still very unacceptable. Think it’s on an ICE model but may have impacts on an EV line https://www.motortrend.com/news/toyota-issues-voluntary-safety-recall-bz4x-ev/ https://www.motortrend.com/news/toyota-issues-voluntary-safe...
- trebor 4y agoI think that the base claim that "Car quality is slipping" is generally true. But I think that this is a trend that began a decade ago. Comparing the track records of the vehicles I've owned: 2002 Corolla (used) - rock solid reliability, only cosmetic issues with vinyl and a need for break pads. 2013 Elantra (brand new) - reliable, except for an electrical issue caused by an off-brand Rocket Fish (Best Buy in-house brand) car charger for my phone. The charger would send dirty electrical signals back into the car, and the new 1st generation power system would trip up... and I wouldn't have climate controls, defrost, wipers, stereo, etc for a random amount of time. I eventually reproduced it for the dealership, but was told by Hyundai that they wouldn't do anything since it wasn't a "defect". I traded it in ASAP for the next car, while it still had trade-in value. 2013 Civic (used, current daily driver) - so far rock solid, except for a tendency to burn up the brake's rotors. I had to replace calipers, pads, and rotors shortly after purchase of the vehicle (they were brand new at purchase IIRC). Occasional power system (maybe the battery?) issue where the airbag system shuts off randomly at start up. I'm definitely cautious about buying a newer car now. I always try to review the lists at CarComplaints.com when considering what I might want to look for.
- datavirtue 4y agoI have a 2017 Civic. Will never consider Honda again (had a 2001 Oddesy). Has a recall, yet to be done due to the inconvenience, that causes the car to jerk around in the lane on the hiway. Wife is constantly bringing up some "weird noise" or it's "acting weird." In general, it is just a crappy, uncomfortable car with far too many complex systems onboard. I should have learned my lesson with the van. Really expensive, totally meh build quality, horrid suspension, and garbage sound system. Disgrace for a company with the repute of Honda.
- bloomingeek 4y agoWe own a 2018 Pacifica minivan, when we bought it the manager told us the electronics were the most added parts on the vehicle. I purchased the upgraded warranty, which I never do. Thank God I did! The Uconnect system is wanky, we had battery problems almost from the start. The last recall for the ESS seems to have fixed the problem. Many people online have given up and said they dumped the van. The van itself is really an awesome vehicle, the electronics side still needs some sorting out. I can't help but feel that Chrysler made us owners guinea pigs.
- S_A_P 4y agoA “problem” can be that your car breaks down or that you don’t know how to use the infotainment system. That’s a pretty wide berth. JD power has bad incentives to track these things.
- antisthenes 4y ago"Increased expectations" from consumers (due to increased prices), can account for all of these extra problems that didn't exist before. Since the survey used and the methodology aren't presented, it's anybody's guess.
- bastard_op 4y agoApparently these millennials weren't around for the 70's of automobile manufacturing in the US. No driveway was without an oil leak.
- kjs3 4y agoSo very true...thank's for the chuckle at those memories. And back then, oil spot on the driveway the size of a dinner plate meant 'put more oil in...it'll be fine'. Now a single drop of oil on the driveway means 'omfg get it to the shop'.
- kkfx 4y agoIME the overall quality of pretty anything is falling, not just cars, the race toward cost-cutting have reached the point of no-return in general assembly output quality. New stuff, not EV in particular, have bigger problems in mean just because they are sold as production ready while are just beta quality prototypes. For cars, not EVs in particular, the issue is in target mismatch: cars now are pushed to be services, rolling infotainment stuff, while people actually tend to need and desire vehicles so less crappy crapware, less surveillance capitalism stuff, less useless interfaces and more effective tools. As a result the end product is bad. It's the mix of some managers and engineers and customers deeply divergent views.
- TYPE_FASTER 4y ago*from 2021 to 2022. Cars are SO much better than they used to be.