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> I don’t know which business school teaches people to say “ah can you smell that fresh mountain air” while they have their hands wrapped tightly around your ne

by lovich 4y ago

> I don’t know which business school teaches people to say “ah can you smell that fresh mountain air” while they have their hands wrapped tightly around your neck … It’s all of them and the higher you get into management the more apparent it is. They sell a system of meritocracy where those who work the hardest get the rewards. Then you get into management and working side by side with people whose first job out of college was as a VP, who explain to you how they are forcing the newly hired manager to fire someone at random to “make sure they have a backbone” Software engineers have been tricked into thinking they are part of the in club because they are paid well enough to have the lifestyle that the middle class had between ww2 and the 80s, but we are being systematically stripped of the value we bring. If this wasn’t true then we wouldn’t be able to point towards recent events like jobs setting up a hiring cartel to depress our wages

cr__ 4y ago
> Software engineers have been tricked into thinking they are part of the in club because they are paid well enough to have the lifestyle that the middle class had between ww2 and the 80s This, and additionally we've been tricked into feeling guilty about it as well.
- Phlarp 4y ago
  And still too busy smelling our own farts to unionize.
  - mm007emko 4y ago
    Well, question is which part of the world you live in, of course. But I don't need to unionize. If I am not satisfied in my job I can switch. Each consecutive job hop past 15 years got me better pay, better benefits and sometimes a better job (sometimes it was equaly shitty as the prevous one but for better money). This does not happen for unionized workers. Maybe in the future we will have to unionize. Definitely not now and not in Europe. And this is not a matter of pay, e.g. airline pilots are paid more than programmers here yet they are heavily unionized.
    - closewith 4y ago
      > And this is not a matter of pay, e.g. airline pilots are paid more than programmers here yet they are heavily unionized. [Citation needed]
      - hectormalot 4y ago
        here you go: * https://centreforaviation.com/news/pilot-union-accepts-employee-contribution-clause-in-klm-restructuring-package-1035047 https://centreforaviation.com/news/pilot-union-accepts-emplo... * https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/klm-clears-path-to-bailout-with-union-deals/140941.article https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/klm-clears-path-to-bai... VNV is the pilots union of KLM, the Dutch national airline. IIRC they were the very last of the unions to sign up to the 'commitment clause' the Dutch gov required as part of their bail-out during Covid. Not a union without teeth.
        closewith 4y ago
        I wasn’t clear. Pilots absolutely have strong unions (which is partly responsible for their levels of pay). I was contesting that pilots are paid more than developers. If you have data that supports that, please share. It seems like an absurd claim.
        mm007emko 4y ago
        Well, depends on the country you live in. My country: https://www.platy.cz/platy/doprava-spedice-logistika/pilot https://www.platy.cz/platy/doprava-spedice-logistika/pilot https://www.platy.cz/platy/informacni-technologie/programator https://www.platy.cz/platy/informacni-technologie/programato... Average is CZK per calendar month gross (which is some 25-30% higher than net). Pilots 38k - 132k Programmers 36k - 86k as employees. If you work as a freelancer programmer (i.e. you have your own trade license) you can easily earn twice as much but if you count-in all the employee benefits granted by the Work law it's usually not worth it if you already have a family (which I have, therefore I switched from freelancing to being an employee). And of course, Ryanair/EasyJet pilots are not counted in the statistics. The same goes to students - programmers which kludge together a Wordpress site and "sell" it.
  - distances 4y ago
    What would be your expectation for an union? I was union member as a developer when I lived a Nordic country (union for engineers and other academic technical professions). Main benefit I saw would've been legal help if I got into trouble with an employer. Otherwise the working conditions were anyway in such a good shape that I wasn't really sure what I should want out of it.
    - moron4hire 4y ago
      You don't think that, perhaps, the working conditions were so good because of the strong culture of unionizing in Nordic countries?
      - distances 4y ago
        That's a fact for sure, and I was a member partly because of recognizing it's good keep that balance of power in employer-employee relations.
    - xorcist 4y ago
      > Otherwise the working conditions were anyway in such a good shape Would the stability and general level of working conditions have anything to do with the fact that most are unionized, and have been over a long time so they can do their job responsibly, perchance?
      - distances 4y ago
        Yes, the working conditions are earned by previous generations through their hard work for unionization and employee rights and is not something that can be taken for granted. Maybe the parent wants the union to fight for the same conditions as Europeans now have? I wouldn't know. My experience from a Nordic union certainly wouldn't be a good take of what an union membership in Brazil, US or Japan would be like.
    - ryanbrunner 4y ago
      Software development is one of a fairly short list of fields where people regularly epouse the virtues of unsustainably long work weeks, and openly state that employees not meeting those requirements will not be successful. I wouldn't describe the working conditions of software development as great in many companies, a lot of snacks doesn't make up for 80 hour work weeks. I could definitely see a guild type arrangement setting minimum standards for hours and working conditions, just like they do in other well-compensated fields.
  - b20000 4y ago
    agreed
- b20000 4y ago
  very true
- skeeter2020 4y ago
  If you think thatthe lifestyle of a software developer with a few years of professional experience is only as good as the middle class between the late 40's and 80's you're either vastly revising history or weren't there. And before you trot out home ownership remember that all those tiny post-war bungalows housed families bigger than yours and were not located in the handful of big centers were housing is so expensive.
  - lovich 4y ago
    Most software developers do not work for faangs. 2xxk or above salaries are beyond imagining for most
brigandish 4y ago
> setting up a hiring cartel to depress our wages I missed this, any details?
- metadat 4y ago
  IIRC, Apple and Google (Steve Jobs and whoever from Google, Larry Paige probably) did it circa 2008. Douchebaggerymaximus.
  - numpad0 4y ago
    Yeah, the ad-run Internet allowed ideas to be capitalized easier, and it also made memetic - not even novelty - value dominate over everything. That resulted in manager-sales role capture entirety of credits. That had been great for some temporarily embarrassed millionaires, I guess, but it sucks for the rest.
- quest88 4y ago
  Google apple suppress wages.
- ansmithz42 4y ago
  I received a settlement from the case because I worked at Intuit, also a party to the cartel.
- toyg 4y ago
  https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/60000-tech-workers-to-average-4000-in-settlement-of-silicon-valley-hiring-lawsuit-antitrust-cartel-apple-google-intel-adobe-systems-steve-jobs-eric-schmidt-poaching/ https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/60000-tech-workers... "former Apple CEO Steve Jobs, former Google CEO Eric Schmidt and top executives from [Intuit, Pixar and Lucasfilm] had reached "no-poaching" pacts prohibiting each other from trying to lure away each other's top workers with offers of higher-paying jobs." These were the ones for whom DoJ had enough "smoking gun" proof, but Jobs and Schmidt had a lot of friends elsewhere (Larry Ellison...), so the cartel was likely much bigger.
mruniverse 4y ago
> Software engineers have been tricked... I think of this when managers come up with different requirements during the project. If the requirements seem to make the product better, I'm all for it. I like to work this way and they pat me on the head for being "agile". But I always end up kicking myself when they ask why the project is taking longer. I fall for it almost every time because I like to tinker.
- hinkley 4y ago
  One of these days when I’m feeling salty I’m going to make a wiki page called “why is it taking so long” and list every feature that drew out the schedule. Hopefully it’ll be seen as helpful, but probably not.
dottedmag 4y ago
> whose first job out of college was as a VP What? How?

by lovich 4y ago

cr__ 4y ago

> Software engineers have been tricked into thinking they are part of the in club because they are paid well enough to have the lifestyle that the middle class had between ww2 and the 80s This, and additionally we've been tricked into feeling guilty about it as well.

Phlarp 4y ago
And still too busy smelling our own farts to unionize.
- mm007emko 4y ago
  Well, question is which part of the world you live in, of course. But I don't need to unionize. If I am not satisfied in my job I can switch. Each consecutive job hop past 15 years got me better pay, better benefits and sometimes a better job (sometimes it was equaly shitty as the prevous one but for better money). This does not happen for unionized workers. Maybe in the future we will have to unionize. Definitely not now and not in Europe. And this is not a matter of pay, e.g. airline pilots are paid more than programmers here yet they are heavily unionized.
  - closewith 4y ago
    > And this is not a matter of pay, e.g. airline pilots are paid more than programmers here yet they are heavily unionized. [Citation needed]
    - hectormalot 4y ago
      here you go: * https://centreforaviation.com/news/pilot-union-accepts-employee-contribution-clause-in-klm-restructuring-package-1035047 https://centreforaviation.com/news/pilot-union-accepts-emplo... * https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/klm-clears-path-to-bailout-with-union-deals/140941.article https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/klm-clears-path-to-bai... VNV is the pilots union of KLM, the Dutch national airline. IIRC they were the very last of the unions to sign up to the 'commitment clause' the Dutch gov required as part of their bail-out during Covid. Not a union without teeth.
      - closewith 4y ago
        I wasn’t clear. Pilots absolutely have strong unions (which is partly responsible for their levels of pay). I was contesting that pilots are paid more than developers. If you have data that supports that, please share. It seems like an absurd claim.
        mm007emko 4y ago
        Well, depends on the country you live in. My country: https://www.platy.cz/platy/doprava-spedice-logistika/pilot https://www.platy.cz/platy/doprava-spedice-logistika/pilot https://www.platy.cz/platy/informacni-technologie/programator https://www.platy.cz/platy/informacni-technologie/programato... Average is CZK per calendar month gross (which is some 25-30% higher than net). Pilots 38k - 132k Programmers 36k - 86k as employees. If you work as a freelancer programmer (i.e. you have your own trade license) you can easily earn twice as much but if you count-in all the employee benefits granted by the Work law it's usually not worth it if you already have a family (which I have, therefore I switched from freelancing to being an employee). And of course, Ryanair/EasyJet pilots are not counted in the statistics. The same goes to students - programmers which kludge together a Wordpress site and "sell" it.
- distances 4y ago
  What would be your expectation for an union? I was union member as a developer when I lived a Nordic country (union for engineers and other academic technical professions). Main benefit I saw would've been legal help if I got into trouble with an employer. Otherwise the working conditions were anyway in such a good shape that I wasn't really sure what I should want out of it.
  - moron4hire 4y ago
    You don't think that, perhaps, the working conditions were so good because of the strong culture of unionizing in Nordic countries?
    - distances 4y ago
      That's a fact for sure, and I was a member partly because of recognizing it's good keep that balance of power in employer-employee relations.
  - xorcist 4y ago
    > Otherwise the working conditions were anyway in such a good shape Would the stability and general level of working conditions have anything to do with the fact that most are unionized, and have been over a long time so they can do their job responsibly, perchance?
    - distances 4y ago
      Yes, the working conditions are earned by previous generations through their hard work for unionization and employee rights and is not something that can be taken for granted. Maybe the parent wants the union to fight for the same conditions as Europeans now have? I wouldn't know. My experience from a Nordic union certainly wouldn't be a good take of what an union membership in Brazil, US or Japan would be like.
  - ryanbrunner 4y ago
    Software development is one of a fairly short list of fields where people regularly epouse the virtues of unsustainably long work weeks, and openly state that employees not meeting those requirements will not be successful. I wouldn't describe the working conditions of software development as great in many companies, a lot of snacks doesn't make up for 80 hour work weeks. I could definitely see a guild type arrangement setting minimum standards for hours and working conditions, just like they do in other well-compensated fields.
- b20000 4y ago
  agreed
b20000 4y ago
very true
skeeter2020 4y ago
If you think thatthe lifestyle of a software developer with a few years of professional experience is only as good as the middle class between the late 40's and 80's you're either vastly revising history or weren't there. And before you trot out home ownership remember that all those tiny post-war bungalows housed families bigger than yours and were not located in the handful of big centers were housing is so expensive.
- lovich 4y ago
  Most software developers do not work for faangs. 2xxk or above salaries are beyond imagining for most

brigandish 4y ago

> setting up a hiring cartel to depress our wages I missed this, any details?

metadat 4y ago
IIRC, Apple and Google (Steve Jobs and whoever from Google, Larry Paige probably) did it circa 2008. Douchebaggerymaximus.
- numpad0 4y ago
  Yeah, the ad-run Internet allowed ideas to be capitalized easier, and it also made memetic - not even novelty - value dominate over everything. That resulted in manager-sales role capture entirety of credits. That had been great for some temporarily embarrassed millionaires, I guess, but it sucks for the rest.
quest88 4y ago
Google apple suppress wages.
ansmithz42 4y ago
I received a settlement from the case because I worked at Intuit, also a party to the cartel.
toyg 4y ago
https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/60000-tech-workers-to-average-4000-in-settlement-of-silicon-valley-hiring-lawsuit-antitrust-cartel-apple-google-intel-adobe-systems-steve-jobs-eric-schmidt-poaching/ https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/60000-tech-workers... "former Apple CEO Steve Jobs, former Google CEO Eric Schmidt and top executives from [Intuit, Pixar and Lucasfilm] had reached "no-poaching" pacts prohibiting each other from trying to lure away each other's top workers with offers of higher-paying jobs." These were the ones for whom DoJ had enough "smoking gun" proof, but Jobs and Schmidt had a lot of friends elsewhere (Larry Ellison...), so the cartel was likely much bigger.

mruniverse 4y ago

> Software engineers have been tricked... I think of this when managers come up with different requirements during the project. If the requirements seem to make the product better, I'm all for it. I like to work this way and they pat me on the head for being "agile". But I always end up kicking myself when they ask why the project is taking longer. I fall for it almost every time because I like to tinker.

hinkley 4y ago
One of these days when I’m feeling salty I’m going to make a wiki page called “why is it taking so long” and list every feature that drew out the schedule. Hopefully it’ll be seen as helpful, but probably not.

dottedmag 4y ago

> whose first job out of college was as a VP What? How?