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Robertson vs. Torx screw drives (2021)

216 points by nkurz 4y ago

dang 4y ago
Ongoing loosely-related thread: What Is Pozidriv? How Does It Differ from a Phillips Drive? (2020) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31956655 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31956655 - July 2022 (64 comments)
0xbadc0de5 4y ago
fwiw - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives
ctur 4y ago
I love these kind of real world tests of technologies applied in the field. A great YouTube channel along a similar vein is Project Farm, https://www.youtube.com/c/ProjectFarm https://www.youtube.com/c/ProjectFarm While he doesn't go into the science and physics directly, he often shows the precise outcomes and results of controlled tests to compare brands against one another. It's always fun when he reads a manufacturer's claim and makes it abundantly clear "we're going to test that."
- walterbell 4y ago
  Project Farm stress testing deck screws, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eikOUFoIZ-Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eikOUFoIZ-Y
  - causality0 4y ago
    Someone needs to put together a live spreadsheet of all his data keep it updated.
    - avhon1 4y ago
      Reddit user u/aleafinwater already started this! https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EOo1cWHieEPCi0nIpW7KU6xOLC8HepYUrWuN6yL0Nc0/edit?usp=sharing https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EOo1cWHieEPCi0nIpW7KU6xO...
      - walterbell 4y ago
        Good summary of the winners. Would also be useful to have a public repository of the raw test data which supported the winners. What's the preferred way to crowdsource spreadsheets or a mini-database? CSV files in github repo, Airtable public db, ..?
      - stewx 4y ago
        He stopped updating it a couple years ago, it looks like. Last one is from 2020.
- walrus01 4y ago
  I recall that this project farm channel also did a test of various pickup truck bed liner products you can apply yourself, if you have something you really want to protect. The results were quite different between them. I have seen some people cover the entire body panels of dedicated purpose off road 4x4 with bed liner or a similar product as a protective layer. they test all sorts of useful things like sds plus hammer drill bits and similar.
- btgeekboy 4y ago
  I really like how avoids a lot of the common YouTube schtick. Video starts and he gets right into it - no themes, long-winded intros, life story.
- hajile 4y ago
  Just steer clear of his knife testing as it's abominable.
  - walterbell 4y ago
    Recommendation for a better tester of knives?
    - hajile 4y ago
      In particular, Project Farm does an edge keeness (BESS) test for all the things. This test is almost entirely testing the edge geometry rather than the knife itself. If you resharpen the blade to be thinner, it will get a higher BESS score. A butterknife will roll into a useless edge after just a couple cuts due to the soft steel, but will score incredibly well on a BESS test because the blade stock is already so thin. A more accurate review would focus much more on things like whether your knife steel will chip easily if you apply lateral pressure (a lot of high-edge retention steels do this, but will last practically forever between sharpenings if used well) or how long will this steel hold a working edge? ("D2 takes a lousy edge and holds it forever") or "will this knife rust too easily in my profession" (rustproof steels like o1, LC200N, and Vanex exist, but tend to be on more specialized knives and generally make other tradeoffs). Can I sharpen this knife without spending a ton of money on diamond sharpeners? Is the knife comfortable for long cutting sessions or are there hot spots? Is this knife going to be a bit small or large for an average hand? Do the pieces fit together well and are they milled well? What kind of locking mechanism is used and is it one that works well for me (especially in gloves)? Is the blade shape and size designed for my kind of cutting tasks? There's thousands of radically different knives not just because of personal preferences, but because the changes make a difference in how the knife performs at different jobs. If you want general knife reviews on youtube, Metal Complex, Nick Shabazz, and Slicey Dicey are probably the top three. Cedric & Ada is a great reviewer if you're interested in knife cut testing. Advanced Knife Bro is great if you like a more sarcastic style. They have something to sell, but Knifecenter has some pretty good content too. If you like Swiss Army Knives (or are in a country like the UK that mostly bans the good knives), Felix Immler literally wrote the book on using them for bushcrafting. Larrin Thomas' site knife steel nerds (and his book) is a must-read if you're interested in the really in-depth knowledge about steels and how they relate to knives. His new supersteel (MagnaCut) is doing really crazy things in the knife world at the moment. Science of Sharp also deserves a shoutout for some interesting work on microscopic images of various sharpening techniques and steels. Be warned that an "all-arounder" midrange, drop point knife will be $100-250 and it may be hard to buy just one.
XorNot 4y ago
So my take away is that Torx is the better system, Square drive (Robertson) is okay, and both would be a lot better then the nightmare world of Phillips we have today. The implication that we're stuck with Phillips because Ford couldn't license Robertson is wild though: I wonder what was going on that made him so resistant to licensing.
- kevin_b_er 4y ago
  Ford wanted exclusivity.
- ars 4y ago
  My understanding is that in the days before automated control, the cam out of Phillips was a desirable feature: Just torque the screw till it cams out, and it's perfectly set each time.
- LanceH 4y ago
  One Philips fits a lot of sizes, can't say the same about Torx or Square.
YZF 4y ago
I've just been doing some repairs on an old deck and all the hardware is square. I don't think I've ever seen a square screw/bolt before moving to North America... With most of my deck screws I just can't get them and have to force the board off or try to pull them out like nails. Between dirt, rust, corrision and some s(l)ight inaccuracies between the driver and the screw I can't seem to get a grab without rounding the square. As the article mentions you have to keep pushing the driver in which isn't always easy depending on what sort of access you have. The other problem is there's so many different sizes and there doesn't seem to be a clear way to figure out the right bit given their slight variations and the condition of old screws. Would be interesting to try and quantify these differences with tests. I still prefer Allen screws, especially if you can get enough depth. The difference between the sizes is pretty clear (if you can tell if it's metric or not...) and they seem to grab pretty solidly. Don't have that much experience with Torx but when working on my BMW motorcycle that had a lot of Torx bolts they seemed to work fairly well, too many different styles/sizes for my liking though so harder to find the correct bit...
- madaxe_again 4y ago
  If you’re really struggling, you can get a screw remover bit - typically just a little tapered hardened metal bit that has a counterclockwise cutting thread. Dead easy for getting out headless wonders.
  - throwaway744678 4y ago
    This, definitely. If you don't have one with you, you can also hammer a slightly larger torx bit into the rounded square and unscrew. This may damage the bit, though.
- patrick451 4y ago
  If you're not already, use an impact driver. It's much much easier to prevent cam out compared to a regular drill. I think they also make the job less taxing because you can get away with applying a lot less pressure.
  - 4y ago
jtwaleson 4y ago
Is pozidriv not more popular than Philips in the US? Here in NL it’s mostly pozidriv but many people mistake it for Philips. Also here Torx is gaining popularity, I don’t buy anything else except for special needs. Edit: pozidrive -> pozidriv (learned something new today)
- leguminous 4y ago
  Pretty much the only place you see Pozidriv in the US is Ikea furniture. Almost nobody realizes that it's different from Phillips, which results in some mildly frustrating experiences putting together furniture with the wrong screwdriver. I bought some Pozidriv bits just for Ikea stuff and they work much better. Another similar situation is bicycle derailleurs. Many older Shimano derailleurs have JIS adjustment screws. They are just similar enough to Phillips that it seems like it's working, but it's very easy to damage the screw head. I have heard that they moved to Torx recently.
- recursive 4y ago
  I have never heard of this. If I've ever encountered it, I definitely mistook it for Philips.
- andreareina 4y ago
  Phillips, Pozidriv, JIS are the unholy trinity, being just similar enough that mixing them up works but risks stripping the head.
- xxs 4y ago
  pozidriv practically doesn't exist outside Europe. It still requires proper down pressure which sometimes (ladders) is hard to come by. I prefer (inner) hex for bolts and torx for screws. Torx is ok for bolts too (mostly m4/m5). Standard hex is fine for wood anchors as well. A rather important downside of torx: you can put a smaller torx driver - say T15 in T20 (and esp. T8 and in T10) - that ruins both the bit and the screw head. Hex doesn't suffer from that issue.
  - mnw21cam 4y ago
ARandomerDude 4y ago
A lot of the internet woodworkers like to act like Robertson or Torx is the only way to go but after about 10 years of reasonably serious hobby/DIY experience I can honestly say that I have never found a #2 Phillips head to be deficient. I actually prefer them because (1) the screws are cheaper, and (2) everybody has a Philips head screwdriver laying around. When you need to adjust something in a pinch, #2 Phillips is king.
- klysm 4y ago
  I’m not sure they’re ever really deficient - isn’t the problem more that they’re really easy to strip?
  - ARandomerDude 4y ago
    I would count easy to strip as deficient. But I almost never strip them. If you're stripping screws, either your technique is bad or the screws are garbage.
    - recursive 4y ago
      In that case, my technique is bad. But only for Philips. My technique is apparently fine for torx.
    - stephen_g 4y ago
      No, there are lots of situations where Phillips just aren't good enough. We have marine applications with small, 316 stainless screws into metal where they'd commonly get a bit gummed up and become extremely easy to strip and get stuck. Since switching everything to Torx (or hex for larger bolts), we've never had a problem with any screws getting stuck or damaged. Same manufacturer of the screws, same sizes, same materials, just different head. Now I use Torx or hex head screws for my personal projects too because they're so much easier to work with once you have some drivers.
    - exmadscientist 4y ago
      > If you're stripping screws, either your technique is bad or the screws are garbage. Or you're asking for more than the screws are good for. I work in R&D. I've had to do things with fasteners that no one should have to do... and I know this because we redesigned that BS as soon as we could. Phillips has given me plenty of trouble in anything harder than light duty use. Torx and hex have both always been fine. Even if hex is theoretically not very good, somehow it's always good enough in the real world. (The availability of hex ball drivers probably accounts for at least some of this. But now there are Torx ball drivers too!) I've got JIS Phillips, I've got American Phillips, I've got DIN/ISO Phillips, I can tell the difference between them, I know when to use all of them, and I can confidently say I hate 'em all.
scotty79 4y ago
Do you know the screws used in electric outlets that looks like crossover between Phillips and flathead so it can be driven by both? (or even Robertson #1) Recently I learned that there are screwdrivers that fit those screws perfectly by being flathead with Robertson #1 in the middle. It's called Milwaukee ECX #1 Other variants are PH/SL1 and PZ/SL1
- ars 4y ago
  This is my preferred option, I just wish the screwdriver was cheaper and more available.
- walterbell 4y ago
  Also a generic "combo" bit from Klein, https://www.amazon.com/Double-Replacement-2-Pack-Klein-Tools/dp/B00YJK0P5C/ https://www.amazon.com/Double-Replacement-2-Pack-Klein-Tools...
- insaneirish 4y ago
  Except the ones that can't, which infuriates me to no end. I was just saying to someone (after having stripped some Phillips head 8-32 screws that stripped by just looking at them) that it's amazing that the guy who invented the worst screw is famous for them. The lesson? Life is not fair.
buchanae 4y ago
I’ve used Torx in a dozen projects over the last year, because that’s what everyone sells now. I’ve hated every minute of using them. The screw heads strip so easily, even on expensive stainless steel versions.
- ravenstine 4y ago
  Really? I haven't used Torx all that much but in my limited experience it's a godsend compared to Philips. Philips heads strip way too easily. It's hard to imagine how Torx could be worse.
- japanuspus 4y ago
  Cannot recognize this at all. In fact, Torx-screws are the only door-mounting[0] screws I have ever been able to screw out rather than cut. [0]: Where I live (Denmark) doors and windows are these days mounted with an 8 mm hard steel screw directly into a slightly undersized hole in the brick wall ("montageskrue" in danish). These are by far the highest torque screws I have ever worked with. The early versions used Phillips rather than Torx, and nobody even bothers trying to get those loose before breaking out the saw.
- mturmon 4y ago
  Like others, I’m surprised at this. You are aware that stainless is softer than common steel, and definitely more likely to strip out? They are more expensive, but best reserved for times when their softness is worth trading for corrosion resistance.
- Gatsky 4y ago
  I find you need to concentrate with Torx screws to properly engage the bit and make sure the clutch on your drill is set right, otherwise yeah you can definitely strip them. But with Phillips especially and to a lesser extent Robertson they just strip no matter what you do.
- timc3 4y ago
  Not my experience, I buy Torx screws by the hundreds and haven't stripped a single one. I do use an impact driver sparingly or the torque setting on drill/driver - plus Bosch or Makita bits.
walrus01 4y ago
In my experience Robertson is much better for anything that is a large head size and will be treated roughly, like a self tapping wood screw being driven by a power driver. Torx is more suited for precision electronics stuff. Or assembling machinery.
- stephen_g 4y ago
  Yeah, we do exactly that, using the square ones (I expect they are Robinson) for the self tapping screws on the wooden crates we ship our satellite terminals and high speed radios in that we make. Everything inside the crate is Torx screws and Hex drive bolts. Switching from Phillips screws has solved a lot of problems we used to have in maintaining the products, especially in marine applications.
  - ertian 4y ago
    I believe American square bolts are different than Robinson. The sizes aren't exactly the same, and they don't taper in the same way.
- hbosch 4y ago
  A stroll down the screw aisle at my local hardware store says otherwise. Most heavy duty, high quality construction screws in USA stores like Lowes or Home Depot offer deck, wood and carpentry screws in Torx format. The GRK brand in particular makes the most bulletproof screws I’ve ever found, and I’ve used them for framing, cabinetry, decking and almost anything imaginable. By contrast I almost never see machine or metal fastening screws in Torx format, almost always these are Philips or Hex.
  - walrus01 4y ago
    You may be in the US, not Canada? The stick built wood house construction industry and others in Canada have used robertson wood screws with much greater popularity for 40+ years vs. the USA.
dvh 4y ago
I don't it see being ISO standard as a plus, it means you are not allowed to copy the specification or ship it with the product or have it for download on your page.
nrp 4y ago
One additional bit of context on this. This is from Paul Pedriana’s blog. Paul passed unexpectedly last year. Among his many achievements, he was one of the key engineers behind the Sim City games and Oculus.
tailrecursion 4y ago
One advantage of Torx head bolts over hex bolts, is that the same torque head can be smaller in Torx. This is desirable for cars where a smaller bolt and driver (e-torx socket in this case) make access possible. So they can jam even more doohickeys into the engine bay.
octoberfranklin 4y ago
> I can’t think of a single technical reason why Phillips should exist in this modern world. Built in torque limit. Above a certain amount of torque, the head of the screw fails (either the driver "cams out" or the head gets damaged). This is usually a bug, but occasionally it is a feature. Torx is the best tho.
- timbit42 4y ago
  Robertson is better than Torx for three reasons: 1. Fewer sizes. Robertson has 6 sizes. If you're using the wrong one, you will know. People often use the wrong Torx driver and end up stripping it. 2. Slightly tapered bit. This allows one-handed usage. You put the bit on and it will stay there. No need to hold the screw with your other hand. 3. Even if painted over, Robertson still works, allowing you to remove them. I agree Torx is second best though.
krzyk 4y ago
Are torx or Robertson screws available for average consumer? All I see in general home maintenance stores is philips/pozidriv. Torx is used in laptops/mobiles and I haven't seen Robertson at all. Hex drives are popular also, mostly for furniture/Ikea. (Poland)
- stephen_g 4y ago
  I've never really seen Torx screws in a hardware shop in my country (Australia), but if you know where to go (e.g. a dedicated fastener supplier) or order online they're very easily available. But you need to know exactly what you're looking for (like 'M3x15mm Torx machine screw'), so maybe the answer is no for the average consumer...
  - jhoechtl 4y ago
    In Europe Torx is swiftly replacing Philips. Screws and bits are readily available in every hardware store in every size. My feeling is they already overtook Philips. Square has never been a thing in Europe.
- bertjk 4y ago
  In the US they are common at hardware stores. They are generally referred to as "star drive" screws and will cost more than standard phillips.
- ema 4y ago
  Here in Germany all the home maintenance stores I went to had torx next to the philips screws.
- taktoa 4y ago
  Torx wood screws are common (albeit less common than Phillips, and more expensive) in US hardware stores
- insaneirish 4y ago
  Can't help for readers in Poland, but in the US, all I ever use are GRK screws, which use a variety of different Torx sizes. I primarily keep stock of their 'cabinet' screws which have a washer head useful for mounting all sorts of things and their multi-purpose framing screws. I'll buy their trim screws as needed. They are excellent fasteners and they're readily stocked in Home Depot near me, which is a big positive.
taktoa 4y ago
I feel like something important here that's been overlooked is how easy it is to get the driver into the socket. This places a very real limit on how fast a large number of screws can be driven. Torx has fairly small tolerances and can be annoying to get in; I've never used Robertson but it seems easier to get in.
- asah 4y ago
  Can confirm. Discovered Robertson on some deck boards, matched the size and they popped out effortlessly.
ungawatkt 4y ago
No "science" here, all anecdote built from boats, skis, and a moderate amount general use: Flat head: the bigger the better in this format, and simplicity has it's place, but easy to destroy in a variety of situations. Also, when you're out of options cutting a flathead slot into a destroyed screw might just work. The classic 6.5/10 Phillips: everywhere, but rather bad. You get a finite but unknown number of interactions with Phillips heads before it suddenly strips out and you're sad. This includes both the screws and the bits, Philips bits are the only ones I've ever had that shatter, the rest fairly predictably deform and can be retired. Square (Robertson): bettr than the above. However, they're also like hex (Allen) but less good. Hex (Allen): one of my favorites, and they scale rather well. BUT, if you strip it at all, maybe even once, you're done, the angles are shallow enough that there's no coming back, you've cut out a circle. Posix: like Phillips if you squint, but if you actually use the right bit and, most importantly, push down harder than seems reasonable times 2, you'll pretty much never have a problem. Torx: not lots of experience, and there's the rub. At the moment they're a hard bit for a layperson to find, regardless of their advantages
- dagss 4y ago
  Here in Norway Torx is everywhere, almost all new screws and bits. It is like Torx is USB 3.0 and everything else is "legacy". Torx just works. Never an issue (except smallest bit size TX10 can wear out quickly). I guess disadvantage is you need to have them in 4-5 sizes depending on screw size, like Hex, but that is easily worth it.
  - ungawatkt 4y ago
    Fair! I'm speaking from a US perspective here for torx availability, and largely interacting with things I didn't get to decide the hardware on myself.
    - danachow 4y ago
      Oh in that case you're just very apparently 40 years behind?, there are kits sold in supermarkets in the US that carry Torx bits. They are not uncommon at all. In addition to automotive it is all over appliances, electronics (eg hard drives), laptops, small electronic devices including smart phones. The Husky toolkit I purchased from Home Depot 25 years ago included Torx bits. Here is even a tamper resistant kit you can get at Home Depot: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-Magnetic-Tamperproof-TORX-L-Key-Set-9-Piece-HLAMTXK9PC/207190358 https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-Magnetic-Tamperproof-TORX-... I am actually stupefied that someone can differentiate Philips from Pozidrive but isn't aware you can pick up a Torx driver set from any Walmart or Harbor Freight.
aaronbrethorst 4y ago
I've been really enjoying using Spax screws for my home improvement projects. https://spax.us/products/multi-purpose-construction-screws/t-star-plus-flat-head-yellow-zinc-partial https://spax.us/products/multi-purpose-construction-screws/t...
samwillis 4y ago
Here in the UK most new screws are Pozidriv, but many people confuse them with Philips as they are very similar. Mixing up Pozidriv/Philips results in the driver riding out and damaging the head. It should be required teaching in schools the difference between the two! Pozidriv screws have a small engraved cross at 45 deg to the main recess. The drivers have a small matching flute in the grooves. Nice picture here: https://www.finehomebuilding.com/2015/09/16/what-is-the-difference-screw-bits-phillips-vs-pozidriv https://www.finehomebuilding.com/2015/09/16/what-is-the-diff...
- ungawatkt 4y ago
  Imo that's the main failure of the posix, it _looks_ like a Phillips, and behaves like one of you use a Phillips bit. Which is rather unfortunate and not really it's fault, but hard to overlook for "normal" usage.
  - xen0 4y ago
    A little harsh to call an intentional compromise 'a failure'. A feature is that pozi is compatible with Phillips bits, just without its advantages. For people with older or smaller toolkits, that's actually quite helpful.
- __alexs 4y ago
  Pozidriv exists almost entirely because the old patent expired. It is not sufficiently better than Philips that the overall fastener situation is improved by its existence.
- alkonaut 4y ago
  PZ are useless as a standard because it's not significantly different enough from others, and you can't tell which PZ you need. Torx and hex is brilliant because you can easily say which shape of bit you need, and you'll instantly know if you pick the wrong one. Luckily Torx seems to have finally won and screws that require any kind of moment (construction/decking/fasteners/) now seem to use them in stores, while only the kind of scre you'd hang up a picture frame with is PH/PZ. I have never seen a square (Robertson?) screw in the wild, I assume that's regional.
shawnz 4y ago
This article doesn't get into the reason why Phillips and Robertson are tapered and prone to camming out: they were designed that way to prevent too much torque from being applied when tightening by hand.
- masklinn 4y ago
  Neither parts of the statement is true for Philips: the Philips screws were borne out of a better compatibility with powered tools, and while the cam out properties have long been claimed as a torque limiter (generally in the context of assembling aluminum aircrafts before powered tools had good torque limiting), that was not part of the original 1932 patent. A later 1949 patent / refinement does make claims on that front, but those are mostly in terms of limiting damage to the screw IIRC.
dehrmann 4y ago
I almost want to replace all my PC screws with torx.
- Jaruzel 4y ago
  20-ish years ago, Compaq went through this phase also. Every screw in their desktop machines were Torx. It was real pain as Torx drivers weren't commonly available (in the UK).
  - aldrich 4y ago
    Compaq were already using Torx for their products in the 80s and 90s, including some Torx variation screw with a slot cut across. I don't know whether this was for some simple form of tamper resistance (I do not believe they actually used the security Torx), or rather for some reasons related to manufacturing and maintenance, which I find much more likely. As the article points out, Torx does have superior torque handling, especially in a time where "lesser" screws may have been more common in PCs, and the use of automatic torque-limiting screwdrivers during manufacture and service would've been an advantage.
- walterbell 4y ago
  For the outside of computer cases? Thumbscrews can sidestep all screwdrivers.
  - xxs 4y ago
    give me hex (or torx) flanged bolts and keep the thumb ones away.
  - timbit42 4y ago
    Yes, for the outside of computer cases, but also for everything else like mounting drives, motherboard, drive cages, etc. I had a Torx screwdriver so I didn't mind. They were much better than Philips.
- throwaway742 4y ago
  Tamper resistant security upgrade.
1-6 4y ago
People who dis the imperial measurement system (as this post does) don’t appreciate the duodecimal system. It’s a ‘forced’ way of thinking of measurement and better when used in commerce. The metric system can support duodecimal but people have to be selective with their numbers (e.g. Plato’s 5040) Highly composite numbers are under-appreciated. There are more divisors in 12 than in 10. Matching our number system to fingers isn’t ideal in a lot of cases.
- HPsquared 4y ago
  That's interesting, apparently 5040 can be divided by 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 ,10 or 12 (and 24, 30, 360...) Very divisible indeed! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/5040_(number) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/5040_(number)
- jstanley 4y ago
  Why is it useful for your measurements to have lots of integer factors?
Gordonjcp 4y ago
I'd never even heard of Robertson before but had seen funny square bits in cheap screwdriver bit sets and wondered what they were for. They're just not a thing in the UK, or at least in Scotland. It's interesting that a lot of cheap DIY store stuff is coming with Torx screws, and indeed Lidl often sells packs of actually quite nice Torx wood screws in various sizes with the correct bit included.
- nmeofthestate 4y ago
  You can find pocket hole screws with Robertson heads. Possibly just Kreg pocket hole screws.
eternityforest 4y ago
I would be perfectly happy with robertson if it were the one universal standard, although I would much rather everything be torx. I do think torx has a few too many sizes. It's already so much better than Phillips, T15 might be fine for the T20 and T25 use cases. I'm sure there's times you need a T20, but they could be marked as non preferred specialty parts. Same with the really small torx. T6 seems unnecessary.
- Freak_NL 4y ago
  Most general purpose Torx screws are T20 anyway; it's pretty much the 'middle' and default Torx size, much like Pozidriv 2. I don't really mind having to change bits if that means I get the benefits of a good fit and enough torque. For woodworking and DIY I use T20 80% of the time. T15 15%, and then rarely T10, T25, and T30. I installed a pair of window sill screws with wall anchors once that had a T40 head; great torque and no cam out! Torx really shines in those applications. T9, T8, T7, T6, T5, etc. I've really only encountered on hard disks when dismantling them for fun. Not something most people would need. So for Torx most people are set with a supply of T10, T15, T20, T25, and T30 bits. T20 is really the only one I wear out (or lose) more than one per year of. No one knows what that weirdly numbered T27 bit is for, but I guess it's good to have just in case.
  - eternityforest 4y ago
    Most of them are, but there's inexplicable T25s around, and a few T15s. Things do seem a bit better now, T20 seems to be taking over.
  - rascul 4y ago
    Deck screws seem to be mostly T25. Those are what I end up using the most.
planede 4y ago
There is one advantage of Philips/Pozidriv I can think of: I have two Philips screwdrivers on my Swiss pocket knife, and they are compatible with a wide size-range of Philips/Pozidriv screws. While for Torx I need to have a set of around 6-8 Torx bits to cover a similar range. My pocket knife is more likely to be with me than my Torx screwdriver set. Interestingly my pocket knife's screwdrivers feel so much better than dedicated Philips screwdrivers. Maybe because the bits are designed to cover the size range, while dedicated screwdrivers are for a very specific size, and they very much suck if you have a mismatch.
- atemerev 4y ago
  Yeah, and I don't like Pozidriv, because it is looks like it is compatible with Philips, but it performs poorly with it, and doesn't have the same margins of tolerance if you have the wrong size of the bit. Philips is _enough_. In fact, for most purposes, a slot screw was enough. I am not carrying my bits collection everywhere.
  - fest 4y ago
    > In fact, for most purposes, a slot screw was enough. Enough for removing, but I dread fastening more than a couple slotted bolts at a time- the driver always slides out easily, is not self centering, and you still need several sizes to reliably undo both small and large bolts.
  - dotancohen 4y ago
    > In fact, for most purposes, a slot screw was enough. For you. But not for manufacturing on an assembly line, the use case for which Philips was designed.
    - atemerev 4y ago
      For manufacturers on assembly line, if something is not user serviceable, yes, it is OK to use anything, from Torx to Pentalobe to something even more exotic. But if I ever need to service something, I want it to be accessible; I want somebody at least think about it for once. My favorite screw drive type is hybrid Slotted/Philips screw. If it is large enough to be unscrewed by a coin and somebody have thought about it too -- even better.
deleted 4y ago
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watersb 4y ago
One design goal of Philips screw drive is to prevent stripping the screw head. The gradual taper allows the screw driver to cam out before excessive torque damages the work. On good days. Then there's Uncle Jimmy.
- LinAGKar 4y ago
  But then mor commonly it gets damaged by repeated cam out.
asah 4y ago
Re cam out, I'm surprised there aren't screws where the contact points aren't made of a stronger metal... ?
- dotancohen 4y ago
  Cam out means that the bit slides out of the fastener, not that either are ruined. And of course screws are available with different metal harnesses and strength.
  - jstanley 4y ago
    But if you're actually trying to loosen/tighten the screw, the natural response to the driver camming out is to press on harder, and then the head does get damaged.
einpoklum 4y ago
I live in a country where all you see is Phillips or Pozidriv; and it's very common to mix them up. No Torx (except on some imported electronics, and rarely). In furniture there's some use of Allen for flush-head screws. This is hell on Earth! Cam-out, cam-out, cam-out of all those cheap mushy-metal Phillips heads. And don't tell me to get harder screws: Usually you don't get to choose, you work with what's provided or already installed. I just _wish_ Torx or Robertson would catch on here. (Israel/Palestine)
0xbadc0de5 4y ago
The most important advantage of Robertson, and the reason why people in construction love them, is that you can put them on your screwdriver/drill/driver and they won't fall off - no matter the orientation you hold it. It's a productivity game changer.
- frosted-flakes 4y ago
  The tapered fit is the reason, and the article outright dismisses this and claims it "increases cam-out". Even with a worn bit, pushing a screw onto the bit means you can grab hold of the screw and swing the drill around. In practice, (especially with impact drivers), the bit seats myself in the screw so thoroughly that you will break the head off the screw before it strips.
- aga98mtl 4y ago
  Here is video showing how Robertson stay on & straight VS Torx falling out easily: https://youtu.be/PMXOTRVYNiw?t=206 https://youtu.be/PMXOTRVYNiw?t=206
- jbay808 4y ago
  This is exactly the reason I love Robertson. You can install screws one-handed or in hard-to-access areas very quickly because the taper locks the screw to the driver. Torx and hex drives don't have this important feature.
- ec109685 4y ago
  Why aren’t magnets used more to achieve the same effect?
- hajile 4y ago
  Not to mention that there are technically six Robertson head sizes, but 90+% of screws are #2 and basically nothing uses any sizes other than #1 and very occasionally #3. I get tired of needing a bit box with 10 different torx sizes so I can find the right one.
doublesocket 4y ago
In my experience Torx is not a good match for impact drivers. Pozidriv bits will far outlast Torx.
janekm 4y ago
In defence of 'security' screws, they are commonly used in applications where it is a regulatory requirement to make it impossible to open an enclosure with common tools, such as power bricks which have exposed mains wiring inside. They are a great compromise here, as they can satisfy the certification authorities while still being accessible to a motivated end user with an amazon driver kit.
beloch 4y ago
A major problem with pretty much all types of screws is identification. Slotted and Phillips screws almost never seem to have the right depth or width for the drivers you have on hand. Torx and hex screws have a metric (and imperial) bleep-ton of different driver sizes. Plus, there's security hex screws and weird abominations like Apple's pentalobe garbage to confuse matters even more. Robertson screws come in just 6 color coded driver sizes, only a couple of which are common. However, the U.S. has shitty non-tapered square-drive screws and drivers that mess even the noble Robertson up. At this point, I'm happy to let Robertson and torx screws co-exist. Just phase out, obsolete, or otherwise fire into the sun all the truly shitty screws out there to help reduce the number of drivers you need to have banging about in a respectable driver drawer. Seriously, there's just too damned many different things out there. Any company (e.g. Apple) that feels the need to make their own new screw just for the heck of it can go sit naked on a soft-boiled egg and spin.
- stephen_g 4y ago
  At least the Torx driver sizes are the same for metric and imperial (unlike hex heads where you need a separate set if you need to do anything with imperial screws/bolts). I find three good drivers are enough for 95% of what you need for electronics, and then a cheap interchangeable head set gets you the rest of what you normally need.
stevespang 4y ago
I have used square head on deck wood, stainless screws, sux so bad, the squares strip out so easily, torx is way to go, wish price would come down.
h2odragon 4y ago
Robertson screws were legion in the Mobile home industry in the 80s and 90s. Also saw them in some "not user serviceable" electronics where they were an early nod to what we'd call security screws today.
I_complete_me 4y ago
There's a great little book "One Good Turn" by Canadian architect, professor and writer Witold Rybczynski where he points out that "A Robertson screw can always be unscrewed".
pkulak 4y ago
I've noticed that there are some torx screws at the hardware store, but it's still absolutely dominated by phillips. Out of what has to be desperation, people seem to have moved to using impact drivers to put in all their screws. So now we have solved the problem of a garbage screw head design in the most complicated, non-optimal way imaginable.
KaiserPro 4y ago
I was exposed to torx wood screws about 5 years ago. I have not gone back. Posi/cross head screws are just crap, the amount of pressure required to drive them in is tremendous. Hex heads are ok, but still require a bit of pressure. Torx screws can be driven in with one hand on the drill. ONE HAND. plus if youre at the top of a ladder, there is no need to push yourself off it to get the fucking screw into the wall. for those people in the UK, screwfix sell turboscrews (https://www.screwfix.com/c/screws-nails-fixings/woodscrews/cat840066?brand=turbo_ii https://www.screwfix.com/c/screws-nails-fixings/woodscrews/c...), which are excellent torx screws, they also come with the drivers needed in every box. Spax are just overly expensive.
- timbit42 4y ago
  I'd like to hear your comments on Robertson if you could get it where you live. I am sure it is better than Torx.
  - KaiserPro 4y ago
    I've only used them a few times. The main issue is bit/hole longevity. They work well once, assuming you have a fresh bit. but if someone doesn't have a clutch set on the drill, then you tend to get subtle damage pretty quick.
MR4D 4y ago
> Torx has been widely replacing Robertson in the United States since then. I think this depends on industry. The last time I went to Home Depot or Lowes to pick up wood screws, I don’t remember seeing Torx at all, but the square drives (Robertson) are.
LinuxBender 4y ago
I had no idea Robertson still existed. I received a box of them for free when they were [Edit] being pushed in the 80's and loved them. The screw would stay on the bit no matter what angle I held the drill which made putting screws into hard to reach places super easy. No need for magnetic bits or other tricks. The local stores only carry Phillips, Hex and Torx so I buy Torx for the smaller screws and Hex for the bigger fence post screws.
- titanomachy 4y ago
  You received a box when they were first developed?? In 1906?
  - LinuxBender 4y ago
    Oh I guess not. It was a big promo and was pushed as if they were "a new thing" but it seems that must have been a marketing thing. This was in the 1980's. Thankyou for the clarification.
- doubled112 4y ago
  I don't know if I've ever seen a construction screw in Canada in anything other than Robertson. Drywall screws are Philips though.
- oplav 4y ago
  All the pocket screws I’ve bought (mostly Kreg brand) have been Robertson. That’s the only time I really see them in the US.

216 points by nkurz 4y ago

dang 4y ago

Ongoing loosely-related thread: What Is Pozidriv? How Does It Differ from a Phillips Drive? (2020) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31956655 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31956655 - July 2022 (64 comments)

0xbadc0de5 4y ago

fwiw - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives

ctur 4y ago

I love these kind of real world tests of technologies applied in the field. A great YouTube channel along a similar vein is Project Farm, https://www.youtube.com/c/ProjectFarm https://www.youtube.com/c/ProjectFarm While he doesn't go into the science and physics directly, he often shows the precise outcomes and results of controlled tests to compare brands against one another. It's always fun when he reads a manufacturer's claim and makes it abundantly clear "we're going to test that."

walterbell 4y ago
Project Farm stress testing deck screws, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eikOUFoIZ-Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eikOUFoIZ-Y
- causality0 4y ago
  Someone needs to put together a live spreadsheet of all his data keep it updated.
  - avhon1 4y ago
    Reddit user u/aleafinwater already started this! https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EOo1cWHieEPCi0nIpW7KU6xOLC8HepYUrWuN6yL0Nc0/edit?usp=sharing https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EOo1cWHieEPCi0nIpW7KU6xO...
    - walterbell 4y ago
      Good summary of the winners. Would also be useful to have a public repository of the raw test data which supported the winners. What's the preferred way to crowdsource spreadsheets or a mini-database? CSV files in github repo, Airtable public db, ..?
    - stewx 4y ago
      He stopped updating it a couple years ago, it looks like. Last one is from 2020.
walrus01 4y ago
I recall that this project farm channel also did a test of various pickup truck bed liner products you can apply yourself, if you have something you really want to protect. The results were quite different between them. I have seen some people cover the entire body panels of dedicated purpose off road 4x4 with bed liner or a similar product as a protective layer. they test all sorts of useful things like sds plus hammer drill bits and similar.
btgeekboy 4y ago
I really like how avoids a lot of the common YouTube schtick. Video starts and he gets right into it - no themes, long-winded intros, life story.
hajile 4y ago
Just steer clear of his knife testing as it's abominable.
- walterbell 4y ago
  Recommendation for a better tester of knives?
  - hajile 4y ago
    In particular, Project Farm does an edge keeness (BESS) test for all the things. This test is almost entirely testing the edge geometry rather than the knife itself. If you resharpen the blade to be thinner, it will get a higher BESS score. A butterknife will roll into a useless edge after just a couple cuts due to the soft steel, but will score incredibly well on a BESS test because the blade stock is already so thin. A more accurate review would focus much more on things like whether your knife steel will chip easily if you apply lateral pressure (a lot of high-edge retention steels do this, but will last practically forever between sharpenings if used well) or how long will this steel hold a working edge? ("D2 takes a lousy edge and holds it forever") or "will this knife rust too easily in my profession" (rustproof steels like o1, LC200N, and Vanex exist, but tend to be on more specialized knives and generally make other tradeoffs). Can I sharpen this knife without spending a ton of money on diamond sharpeners? Is the knife comfortable for long cutting sessions or are there hot spots? Is this knife going to be a bit small or large for an average hand? Do the pieces fit together well and are they milled well? What kind of locking mechanism is used and is it one that works well for me (especially in gloves)? Is the blade shape and size designed for my kind of cutting tasks? There's thousands of radically different knives not just because of personal preferences, but because the changes make a difference in how the knife performs at different jobs. If you want general knife reviews on youtube, Metal Complex, Nick Shabazz, and Slicey Dicey are probably the top three. Cedric & Ada is a great reviewer if you're interested in knife cut testing. Advanced Knife Bro is great if you like a more sarcastic style. They have something to sell, but Knifecenter has some pretty good content too. If you like Swiss Army Knives (or are in a country like the UK that mostly bans the good knives), Felix Immler literally wrote the book on using them for bushcrafting. Larrin Thomas' site knife steel nerds (and his book) is a must-read if you're interested in the really in-depth knowledge about steels and how they relate to knives. His new supersteel (MagnaCut) is doing really crazy things in the knife world at the moment. Science of Sharp also deserves a shoutout for some interesting work on microscopic images of various sharpening techniques and steels. Be warned that an "all-arounder" midrange, drop point knife will be $100-250 and it may be hard to buy just one.

XorNot 4y ago

So my take away is that Torx is the better system, Square drive (Robertson) is okay, and both would be a lot better then the nightmare world of Phillips we have today. The implication that we're stuck with Phillips because Ford couldn't license Robertson is wild though: I wonder what was going on that made him so resistant to licensing.

kevin_b_er 4y ago
Ford wanted exclusivity.
ars 4y ago
My understanding is that in the days before automated control, the cam out of Phillips was a desirable feature: Just torque the screw till it cams out, and it's perfectly set each time.
LanceH 4y ago
One Philips fits a lot of sizes, can't say the same about Torx or Square.

YZF 4y ago

I've just been doing some repairs on an old deck and all the hardware is square. I don't think I've ever seen a square screw/bolt before moving to North America... With most of my deck screws I just can't get them and have to force the board off or try to pull them out like nails. Between dirt, rust, corrision and some s(l)ight inaccuracies between the driver and the screw I can't seem to get a grab without rounding the square. As the article mentions you have to keep pushing the driver in which isn't always easy depending on what sort of access you have. The other problem is there's so many different sizes and there doesn't seem to be a clear way to figure out the right bit given their slight variations and the condition of old screws. Would be interesting to try and quantify these differences with tests. I still prefer Allen screws, especially if you can get enough depth. The difference between the sizes is pretty clear (if you can tell if it's metric or not...) and they seem to grab pretty solidly. Don't have that much experience with Torx but when working on my BMW motorcycle that had a lot of Torx bolts they seemed to work fairly well, too many different styles/sizes for my liking though so harder to find the correct bit...

madaxe_again 4y ago
If you’re really struggling, you can get a screw remover bit - typically just a little tapered hardened metal bit that has a counterclockwise cutting thread. Dead easy for getting out headless wonders.
- throwaway744678 4y ago
  This, definitely. If you don't have one with you, you can also hammer a slightly larger torx bit into the rounded square and unscrew. This may damage the bit, though.
patrick451 4y ago
If you're not already, use an impact driver. It's much much easier to prevent cam out compared to a regular drill. I think they also make the job less taxing because you can get away with applying a lot less pressure.
- 4y ago

jtwaleson 4y ago

Is pozidriv not more popular than Philips in the US? Here in NL it’s mostly pozidriv but many people mistake it for Philips. Also here Torx is gaining popularity, I don’t buy anything else except for special needs. Edit: pozidrive -> pozidriv (learned something new today)

leguminous 4y ago
Pretty much the only place you see Pozidriv in the US is Ikea furniture. Almost nobody realizes that it's different from Phillips, which results in some mildly frustrating experiences putting together furniture with the wrong screwdriver. I bought some Pozidriv bits just for Ikea stuff and they work much better. Another similar situation is bicycle derailleurs. Many older Shimano derailleurs have JIS adjustment screws. They are just similar enough to Phillips that it seems like it's working, but it's very easy to damage the screw head. I have heard that they moved to Torx recently.
recursive 4y ago
I have never heard of this. If I've ever encountered it, I definitely mistook it for Philips.
andreareina 4y ago
Phillips, Pozidriv, JIS are the unholy trinity, being just similar enough that mixing them up works but risks stripping the head.
xxs 4y ago
pozidriv practically doesn't exist outside Europe. It still requires proper down pressure which sometimes (ladders) is hard to come by. I prefer (inner) hex for bolts and torx for screws. Torx is ok for bolts too (mostly m4/m5). Standard hex is fine for wood anchors as well. A rather important downside of torx: you can put a smaller torx driver - say T15 in T20 (and esp. T8 and in T10) - that ruins both the bit and the screw head. Hex doesn't suffer from that issue.
- mnw21cam 4y ago

ARandomerDude 4y ago

A lot of the internet woodworkers like to act like Robertson or Torx is the only way to go but after about 10 years of reasonably serious hobby/DIY experience I can honestly say that I have never found a #2 Phillips head to be deficient. I actually prefer them because (1) the screws are cheaper, and (2) everybody has a Philips head screwdriver laying around. When you need to adjust something in a pinch, #2 Phillips is king.

klysm 4y ago
I’m not sure they’re ever really deficient - isn’t the problem more that they’re really easy to strip?
- ARandomerDude 4y ago
  I would count easy to strip as deficient. But I almost never strip them. If you're stripping screws, either your technique is bad or the screws are garbage.
  - recursive 4y ago
    In that case, my technique is bad. But only for Philips. My technique is apparently fine for torx.
  - stephen_g 4y ago
    No, there are lots of situations where Phillips just aren't good enough. We have marine applications with small, 316 stainless screws into metal where they'd commonly get a bit gummed up and become extremely easy to strip and get stuck. Since switching everything to Torx (or hex for larger bolts), we've never had a problem with any screws getting stuck or damaged. Same manufacturer of the screws, same sizes, same materials, just different head. Now I use Torx or hex head screws for my personal projects too because they're so much easier to work with once you have some drivers.
  - exmadscientist 4y ago
    > If you're stripping screws, either your technique is bad or the screws are garbage. Or you're asking for more than the screws are good for. I work in R&D. I've had to do things with fasteners that no one should have to do... and I know this because we redesigned that BS as soon as we could. Phillips has given me plenty of trouble in anything harder than light duty use. Torx and hex have both always been fine. Even if hex is theoretically not very good, somehow it's always good enough in the real world. (The availability of hex ball drivers probably accounts for at least some of this. But now there are Torx ball drivers too!) I've got JIS Phillips, I've got American Phillips, I've got DIN/ISO Phillips, I can tell the difference between them, I know when to use all of them, and I can confidently say I hate 'em all.

scotty79 4y ago

Do you know the screws used in electric outlets that looks like crossover between Phillips and flathead so it can be driven by both? (or even Robertson #1) Recently I learned that there are screwdrivers that fit those screws perfectly by being flathead with Robertson #1 in the middle. It's called Milwaukee ECX #1 Other variants are PH/SL1 and PZ/SL1

ars 4y ago
This is my preferred option, I just wish the screwdriver was cheaper and more available.
walterbell 4y ago
Also a generic "combo" bit from Klein, https://www.amazon.com/Double-Replacement-2-Pack-Klein-Tools/dp/B00YJK0P5C/ https://www.amazon.com/Double-Replacement-2-Pack-Klein-Tools...
insaneirish 4y ago
Except the ones that can't, which infuriates me to no end. I was just saying to someone (after having stripped some Phillips head 8-32 screws that stripped by just looking at them) that it's amazing that the guy who invented the worst screw is famous for them. The lesson? Life is not fair.

buchanae 4y ago

I’ve used Torx in a dozen projects over the last year, because that’s what everyone sells now. I’ve hated every minute of using them. The screw heads strip so easily, even on expensive stainless steel versions.

ravenstine 4y ago
Really? I haven't used Torx all that much but in my limited experience it's a godsend compared to Philips. Philips heads strip way too easily. It's hard to imagine how Torx could be worse.
japanuspus 4y ago
Cannot recognize this at all. In fact, Torx-screws are the only door-mounting[0] screws I have ever been able to screw out rather than cut. [0]: Where I live (Denmark) doors and windows are these days mounted with an 8 mm hard steel screw directly into a slightly undersized hole in the brick wall ("montageskrue" in danish). These are by far the highest torque screws I have ever worked with. The early versions used Phillips rather than Torx, and nobody even bothers trying to get those loose before breaking out the saw.
mturmon 4y ago
Like others, I’m surprised at this. You are aware that stainless is softer than common steel, and definitely more likely to strip out? They are more expensive, but best reserved for times when their softness is worth trading for corrosion resistance.
Gatsky 4y ago
I find you need to concentrate with Torx screws to properly engage the bit and make sure the clutch on your drill is set right, otherwise yeah you can definitely strip them. But with Phillips especially and to a lesser extent Robertson they just strip no matter what you do.
timc3 4y ago
Not my experience, I buy Torx screws by the hundreds and haven't stripped a single one. I do use an impact driver sparingly or the torque setting on drill/driver - plus Bosch or Makita bits.

walrus01 4y ago

In my experience Robertson is much better for anything that is a large head size and will be treated roughly, like a self tapping wood screw being driven by a power driver. Torx is more suited for precision electronics stuff. Or assembling machinery.

stephen_g 4y ago
Yeah, we do exactly that, using the square ones (I expect they are Robinson) for the self tapping screws on the wooden crates we ship our satellite terminals and high speed radios in that we make. Everything inside the crate is Torx screws and Hex drive bolts. Switching from Phillips screws has solved a lot of problems we used to have in maintaining the products, especially in marine applications.
- ertian 4y ago
  I believe American square bolts are different than Robinson. The sizes aren't exactly the same, and they don't taper in the same way.
hbosch 4y ago
A stroll down the screw aisle at my local hardware store says otherwise. Most heavy duty, high quality construction screws in USA stores like Lowes or Home Depot offer deck, wood and carpentry screws in Torx format. The GRK brand in particular makes the most bulletproof screws I’ve ever found, and I’ve used them for framing, cabinetry, decking and almost anything imaginable. By contrast I almost never see machine or metal fastening screws in Torx format, almost always these are Philips or Hex.
- walrus01 4y ago
  You may be in the US, not Canada? The stick built wood house construction industry and others in Canada have used robertson wood screws with much greater popularity for 40+ years vs. the USA.

dvh 4y ago

I don't it see being ISO standard as a plus, it means you are not allowed to copy the specification or ship it with the product or have it for download on your page.

nrp 4y ago

One additional bit of context on this. This is from Paul Pedriana’s blog. Paul passed unexpectedly last year. Among his many achievements, he was one of the key engineers behind the Sim City games and Oculus.

tailrecursion 4y ago

One advantage of Torx head bolts over hex bolts, is that the same torque head can be smaller in Torx. This is desirable for cars where a smaller bolt and driver (e-torx socket in this case) make access possible. So they can jam even more doohickeys into the engine bay.

octoberfranklin 4y ago

> I can’t think of a single technical reason why Phillips should exist in this modern world. Built in torque limit. Above a certain amount of torque, the head of the screw fails (either the driver "cams out" or the head gets damaged). This is usually a bug, but occasionally it is a feature. Torx is the best tho.

timbit42 4y ago
Robertson is better than Torx for three reasons: 1. Fewer sizes. Robertson has 6 sizes. If you're using the wrong one, you will know. People often use the wrong Torx driver and end up stripping it. 2. Slightly tapered bit. This allows one-handed usage. You put the bit on and it will stay there. No need to hold the screw with your other hand. 3. Even if painted over, Robertson still works, allowing you to remove them. I agree Torx is second best though.

krzyk 4y ago

Are torx or Robertson screws available for average consumer? All I see in general home maintenance stores is philips/pozidriv. Torx is used in laptops/mobiles and I haven't seen Robertson at all. Hex drives are popular also, mostly for furniture/Ikea. (Poland)

stephen_g 4y ago
I've never really seen Torx screws in a hardware shop in my country (Australia), but if you know where to go (e.g. a dedicated fastener supplier) or order online they're very easily available. But you need to know exactly what you're looking for (like 'M3x15mm Torx machine screw'), so maybe the answer is no for the average consumer...
- jhoechtl 4y ago
  In Europe Torx is swiftly replacing Philips. Screws and bits are readily available in every hardware store in every size. My feeling is they already overtook Philips. Square has never been a thing in Europe.
bertjk 4y ago
In the US they are common at hardware stores. They are generally referred to as "star drive" screws and will cost more than standard phillips.
ema 4y ago
Here in Germany all the home maintenance stores I went to had torx next to the philips screws.
taktoa 4y ago
Torx wood screws are common (albeit less common than Phillips, and more expensive) in US hardware stores
insaneirish 4y ago
Can't help for readers in Poland, but in the US, all I ever use are GRK screws, which use a variety of different Torx sizes. I primarily keep stock of their 'cabinet' screws which have a washer head useful for mounting all sorts of things and their multi-purpose framing screws. I'll buy their trim screws as needed. They are excellent fasteners and they're readily stocked in Home Depot near me, which is a big positive.

taktoa 4y ago

I feel like something important here that's been overlooked is how easy it is to get the driver into the socket. This places a very real limit on how fast a large number of screws can be driven. Torx has fairly small tolerances and can be annoying to get in; I've never used Robertson but it seems easier to get in.

asah 4y ago
Can confirm. Discovered Robertson on some deck boards, matched the size and they popped out effortlessly.

ungawatkt 4y ago

No "science" here, all anecdote built from boats, skis, and a moderate amount general use: Flat head: the bigger the better in this format, and simplicity has it's place, but easy to destroy in a variety of situations. Also, when you're out of options cutting a flathead slot into a destroyed screw might just work. The classic 6.5/10 Phillips: everywhere, but rather bad. You get a finite but unknown number of interactions with Phillips heads before it suddenly strips out and you're sad. This includes both the screws and the bits, Philips bits are the only ones I've ever had that shatter, the rest fairly predictably deform and can be retired. Square (Robertson): bettr than the above. However, they're also like hex (Allen) but less good. Hex (Allen): one of my favorites, and they scale rather well. BUT, if you strip it at all, maybe even once, you're done, the angles are shallow enough that there's no coming back, you've cut out a circle. Posix: like Phillips if you squint, but if you actually use the right bit and, most importantly, push down harder than seems reasonable times 2, you'll pretty much never have a problem. Torx: not lots of experience, and there's the rub. At the moment they're a hard bit for a layperson to find, regardless of their advantages

dagss 4y ago
Here in Norway Torx is everywhere, almost all new screws and bits. It is like Torx is USB 3.0 and everything else is "legacy". Torx just works. Never an issue (except smallest bit size TX10 can wear out quickly). I guess disadvantage is you need to have them in 4-5 sizes depending on screw size, like Hex, but that is easily worth it.
- ungawatkt 4y ago
  Fair! I'm speaking from a US perspective here for torx availability, and largely interacting with things I didn't get to decide the hardware on myself.
  - danachow 4y ago
    Oh in that case you're just very apparently 40 years behind?, there are kits sold in supermarkets in the US that carry Torx bits. They are not uncommon at all. In addition to automotive it is all over appliances, electronics (eg hard drives), laptops, small electronic devices including smart phones. The Husky toolkit I purchased from Home Depot 25 years ago included Torx bits. Here is even a tamper resistant kit you can get at Home Depot: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-Magnetic-Tamperproof-TORX-L-Key-Set-9-Piece-HLAMTXK9PC/207190358 https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-Magnetic-Tamperproof-TORX-... I am actually stupefied that someone can differentiate Philips from Pozidrive but isn't aware you can pick up a Torx driver set from any Walmart or Harbor Freight.

aaronbrethorst 4y ago

I've been really enjoying using Spax screws for my home improvement projects. https://spax.us/products/multi-purpose-construction-screws/t-star-plus-flat-head-yellow-zinc-partial https://spax.us/products/multi-purpose-construction-screws/t...

samwillis 4y ago

Here in the UK most new screws are Pozidriv, but many people confuse them with Philips as they are very similar. Mixing up Pozidriv/Philips results in the driver riding out and damaging the head. It should be required teaching in schools the difference between the two! Pozidriv screws have a small engraved cross at 45 deg to the main recess. The drivers have a small matching flute in the grooves. Nice picture here: https://www.finehomebuilding.com/2015/09/16/what-is-the-difference-screw-bits-phillips-vs-pozidriv https://www.finehomebuilding.com/2015/09/16/what-is-the-diff...

ungawatkt 4y ago
Imo that's the main failure of the posix, it _looks_ like a Phillips, and behaves like one of you use a Phillips bit. Which is rather unfortunate and not really it's fault, but hard to overlook for "normal" usage.
- xen0 4y ago
  A little harsh to call an intentional compromise 'a failure'. A feature is that pozi is compatible with Phillips bits, just without its advantages. For people with older or smaller toolkits, that's actually quite helpful.
__alexs 4y ago
Pozidriv exists almost entirely because the old patent expired. It is not sufficiently better than Philips that the overall fastener situation is improved by its existence.
alkonaut 4y ago
PZ are useless as a standard because it's not significantly different enough from others, and you can't tell which PZ you need. Torx and hex is brilliant because you can easily say which shape of bit you need, and you'll instantly know if you pick the wrong one. Luckily Torx seems to have finally won and screws that require any kind of moment (construction/decking/fasteners/) now seem to use them in stores, while only the kind of scre you'd hang up a picture frame with is PH/PZ. I have never seen a square (Robertson?) screw in the wild, I assume that's regional.

shawnz 4y ago

This article doesn't get into the reason why Phillips and Robertson are tapered and prone to camming out: they were designed that way to prevent too much torque from being applied when tightening by hand.

masklinn 4y ago
Neither parts of the statement is true for Philips: the Philips screws were borne out of a better compatibility with powered tools, and while the cam out properties have long been claimed as a torque limiter (generally in the context of assembling aluminum aircrafts before powered tools had good torque limiting), that was not part of the original 1932 patent. A later 1949 patent / refinement does make claims on that front, but those are mostly in terms of limiting damage to the screw IIRC.

dehrmann 4y ago

I almost want to replace all my PC screws with torx.

Jaruzel 4y ago
20-ish years ago, Compaq went through this phase also. Every screw in their desktop machines were Torx. It was real pain as Torx drivers weren't commonly available (in the UK).
- aldrich 4y ago
  Compaq were already using Torx for their products in the 80s and 90s, including some Torx variation screw with a slot cut across. I don't know whether this was for some simple form of tamper resistance (I do not believe they actually used the security Torx), or rather for some reasons related to manufacturing and maintenance, which I find much more likely. As the article points out, Torx does have superior torque handling, especially in a time where "lesser" screws may have been more common in PCs, and the use of automatic torque-limiting screwdrivers during manufacture and service would've been an advantage.
walterbell 4y ago
For the outside of computer cases? Thumbscrews can sidestep all screwdrivers.
- xxs 4y ago
  give me hex (or torx) flanged bolts and keep the thumb ones away.
- timbit42 4y ago
  Yes, for the outside of computer cases, but also for everything else like mounting drives, motherboard, drive cages, etc. I had a Torx screwdriver so I didn't mind. They were much better than Philips.
throwaway742 4y ago
Tamper resistant security upgrade.

1-6 4y ago

People who dis the imperial measurement system (as this post does) don’t appreciate the duodecimal system. It’s a ‘forced’ way of thinking of measurement and better when used in commerce. The metric system can support duodecimal but people have to be selective with their numbers (e.g. Plato’s 5040) Highly composite numbers are under-appreciated. There are more divisors in 12 than in 10. Matching our number system to fingers isn’t ideal in a lot of cases.

HPsquared 4y ago
That's interesting, apparently 5040 can be divided by 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 ,10 or 12 (and 24, 30, 360...) Very divisible indeed! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/5040_(number) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/5040_(number)
jstanley 4y ago
Why is it useful for your measurements to have lots of integer factors?

Gordonjcp 4y ago

I'd never even heard of Robertson before but had seen funny square bits in cheap screwdriver bit sets and wondered what they were for. They're just not a thing in the UK, or at least in Scotland. It's interesting that a lot of cheap DIY store stuff is coming with Torx screws, and indeed Lidl often sells packs of actually quite nice Torx wood screws in various sizes with the correct bit included.

nmeofthestate 4y ago
You can find pocket hole screws with Robertson heads. Possibly just Kreg pocket hole screws.

eternityforest 4y ago

I would be perfectly happy with robertson if it were the one universal standard, although I would much rather everything be torx. I do think torx has a few too many sizes. It's already so much better than Phillips, T15 might be fine for the T20 and T25 use cases. I'm sure there's times you need a T20, but they could be marked as non preferred specialty parts. Same with the really small torx. T6 seems unnecessary.

Freak_NL 4y ago
Most general purpose Torx screws are T20 anyway; it's pretty much the 'middle' and default Torx size, much like Pozidriv 2. I don't really mind having to change bits if that means I get the benefits of a good fit and enough torque. For woodworking and DIY I use T20 80% of the time. T15 15%, and then rarely T10, T25, and T30. I installed a pair of window sill screws with wall anchors once that had a T40 head; great torque and no cam out! Torx really shines in those applications. T9, T8, T7, T6, T5, etc. I've really only encountered on hard disks when dismantling them for fun. Not something most people would need. So for Torx most people are set with a supply of T10, T15, T20, T25, and T30 bits. T20 is really the only one I wear out (or lose) more than one per year of. No one knows what that weirdly numbered T27 bit is for, but I guess it's good to have just in case.
- eternityforest 4y ago
  Most of them are, but there's inexplicable T25s around, and a few T15s. Things do seem a bit better now, T20 seems to be taking over.
- rascul 4y ago
  Deck screws seem to be mostly T25. Those are what I end up using the most.

planede 4y ago

There is one advantage of Philips/Pozidriv I can think of: I have two Philips screwdrivers on my Swiss pocket knife, and they are compatible with a wide size-range of Philips/Pozidriv screws. While for Torx I need to have a set of around 6-8 Torx bits to cover a similar range. My pocket knife is more likely to be with me than my Torx screwdriver set. Interestingly my pocket knife's screwdrivers feel so much better than dedicated Philips screwdrivers. Maybe because the bits are designed to cover the size range, while dedicated screwdrivers are for a very specific size, and they very much suck if you have a mismatch.

atemerev 4y ago
Yeah, and I don't like Pozidriv, because it is looks like it is compatible with Philips, but it performs poorly with it, and doesn't have the same margins of tolerance if you have the wrong size of the bit. Philips is _enough_. In fact, for most purposes, a slot screw was enough. I am not carrying my bits collection everywhere.
- fest 4y ago
  > In fact, for most purposes, a slot screw was enough. Enough for removing, but I dread fastening more than a couple slotted bolts at a time- the driver always slides out easily, is not self centering, and you still need several sizes to reliably undo both small and large bolts.
- dotancohen 4y ago
  > In fact, for most purposes, a slot screw was enough. For you. But not for manufacturing on an assembly line, the use case for which Philips was designed.
  - atemerev 4y ago
    For manufacturers on assembly line, if something is not user serviceable, yes, it is OK to use anything, from Torx to Pentalobe to something even more exotic. But if I ever need to service something, I want it to be accessible; I want somebody at least think about it for once. My favorite screw drive type is hybrid Slotted/Philips screw. If it is large enough to be unscrewed by a coin and somebody have thought about it too -- even better.

deleted 4y ago

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watersb 4y ago

One design goal of Philips screw drive is to prevent stripping the screw head. The gradual taper allows the screw driver to cam out before excessive torque damages the work. On good days. Then there's Uncle Jimmy.

LinAGKar 4y ago
But then mor commonly it gets damaged by repeated cam out.

asah 4y ago

Re cam out, I'm surprised there aren't screws where the contact points aren't made of a stronger metal... ?

dotancohen 4y ago
Cam out means that the bit slides out of the fastener, not that either are ruined. And of course screws are available with different metal harnesses and strength.
- jstanley 4y ago
  But if you're actually trying to loosen/tighten the screw, the natural response to the driver camming out is to press on harder, and then the head does get damaged.

einpoklum 4y ago

I live in a country where all you see is Phillips or Pozidriv; and it's very common to mix them up. No Torx (except on some imported electronics, and rarely). In furniture there's some use of Allen for flush-head screws. This is hell on Earth! Cam-out, cam-out, cam-out of all those cheap mushy-metal Phillips heads. And don't tell me to get harder screws: Usually you don't get to choose, you work with what's provided or already installed. I just _wish_ Torx or Robertson would catch on here. (Israel/Palestine)

0xbadc0de5 4y ago

The most important advantage of Robertson, and the reason why people in construction love them, is that you can put them on your screwdriver/drill/driver and they won't fall off - no matter the orientation you hold it. It's a productivity game changer.

frosted-flakes 4y ago
The tapered fit is the reason, and the article outright dismisses this and claims it "increases cam-out". Even with a worn bit, pushing a screw onto the bit means you can grab hold of the screw and swing the drill around. In practice, (especially with impact drivers), the bit seats myself in the screw so thoroughly that you will break the head off the screw before it strips.
aga98mtl 4y ago
Here is video showing how Robertson stay on & straight VS Torx falling out easily: https://youtu.be/PMXOTRVYNiw?t=206 https://youtu.be/PMXOTRVYNiw?t=206
jbay808 4y ago
This is exactly the reason I love Robertson. You can install screws one-handed or in hard-to-access areas very quickly because the taper locks the screw to the driver. Torx and hex drives don't have this important feature.
ec109685 4y ago
Why aren’t magnets used more to achieve the same effect?
hajile 4y ago
Not to mention that there are technically six Robertson head sizes, but 90+% of screws are #2 and basically nothing uses any sizes other than #1 and very occasionally #3. I get tired of needing a bit box with 10 different torx sizes so I can find the right one.

doublesocket 4y ago

In my experience Torx is not a good match for impact drivers. Pozidriv bits will far outlast Torx.

janekm 4y ago

In defence of 'security' screws, they are commonly used in applications where it is a regulatory requirement to make it impossible to open an enclosure with common tools, such as power bricks which have exposed mains wiring inside. They are a great compromise here, as they can satisfy the certification authorities while still being accessible to a motivated end user with an amazon driver kit.

beloch 4y ago

A major problem with pretty much all types of screws is identification. Slotted and Phillips screws almost never seem to have the right depth or width for the drivers you have on hand. Torx and hex screws have a metric (and imperial) bleep-ton of different driver sizes. Plus, there's security hex screws and weird abominations like Apple's pentalobe garbage to confuse matters even more. Robertson screws come in just 6 color coded driver sizes, only a couple of which are common. However, the U.S. has shitty non-tapered square-drive screws and drivers that mess even the noble Robertson up. At this point, I'm happy to let Robertson and torx screws co-exist. Just phase out, obsolete, or otherwise fire into the sun all the truly shitty screws out there to help reduce the number of drivers you need to have banging about in a respectable driver drawer. Seriously, there's just too damned many different things out there. Any company (e.g. Apple) that feels the need to make their own new screw just for the heck of it can go sit naked on a soft-boiled egg and spin.

stephen_g 4y ago
At least the Torx driver sizes are the same for metric and imperial (unlike hex heads where you need a separate set if you need to do anything with imperial screws/bolts). I find three good drivers are enough for 95% of what you need for electronics, and then a cheap interchangeable head set gets you the rest of what you normally need.

stevespang 4y ago

I have used square head on deck wood, stainless screws, sux so bad, the squares strip out so easily, torx is way to go, wish price would come down.

h2odragon 4y ago

Robertson screws were legion in the Mobile home industry in the 80s and 90s. Also saw them in some "not user serviceable" electronics where they were an early nod to what we'd call security screws today.

I_complete_me 4y ago

There's a great little book "One Good Turn" by Canadian architect, professor and writer Witold Rybczynski where he points out that "A Robertson screw can always be unscrewed".

pkulak 4y ago

I've noticed that there are some torx screws at the hardware store, but it's still absolutely dominated by phillips. Out of what has to be desperation, people seem to have moved to using impact drivers to put in all their screws. So now we have solved the problem of a garbage screw head design in the most complicated, non-optimal way imaginable.

KaiserPro 4y ago

I was exposed to torx wood screws about 5 years ago. I have not gone back. Posi/cross head screws are just crap, the amount of pressure required to drive them in is tremendous. Hex heads are ok, but still require a bit of pressure. Torx screws can be driven in with one hand on the drill. ONE HAND. plus if youre at the top of a ladder, there is no need to push yourself off it to get the fucking screw into the wall. for those people in the UK, screwfix sell turboscrews (https://www.screwfix.com/c/screws-nails-fixings/woodscrews/cat840066?brand=turbo_ii https://www.screwfix.com/c/screws-nails-fixings/woodscrews/c...), which are excellent torx screws, they also come with the drivers needed in every box. Spax are just overly expensive.

timbit42 4y ago
I'd like to hear your comments on Robertson if you could get it where you live. I am sure it is better than Torx.
- KaiserPro 4y ago
  I've only used them a few times. The main issue is bit/hole longevity. They work well once, assuming you have a fresh bit. but if someone doesn't have a clutch set on the drill, then you tend to get subtle damage pretty quick.

MR4D 4y ago

> Torx has been widely replacing Robertson in the United States since then. I think this depends on industry. The last time I went to Home Depot or Lowes to pick up wood screws, I don’t remember seeing Torx at all, but the square drives (Robertson) are.

LinuxBender 4y ago

I had no idea Robertson still existed. I received a box of them for free when they were [Edit] being pushed in the 80's and loved them. The screw would stay on the bit no matter what angle I held the drill which made putting screws into hard to reach places super easy. No need for magnetic bits or other tricks. The local stores only carry Phillips, Hex and Torx so I buy Torx for the smaller screws and Hex for the bigger fence post screws.

titanomachy 4y ago
You received a box when they were first developed?? In 1906?
- LinuxBender 4y ago
  Oh I guess not. It was a big promo and was pushed as if they were "a new thing" but it seems that must have been a marketing thing. This was in the 1980's. Thankyou for the clarification.
doubled112 4y ago
I don't know if I've ever seen a construction screw in Canada in anything other than Robertson. Drywall screws are Philips though.
oplav 4y ago
All the pocket screws I’ve bought (mostly Kreg brand) have been Robertson. That’s the only time I really see them in the US.