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It is still autonomous. Nothing has really changed. I lived in HK during the protests. There is a big gap between what was being reported in the western media

It is still autonomous. Nothing has really changed. I lived in HK during the protests. There is a big gap between what was being reported in the western media (which I assume you consumed) and what was actually true.

markles 4y ago
Autonomous in name, but the politics have changed dramatically as laws have changed. It's not the same Hong Kong.
GFischer 4y ago
I've seen how local media manipulates things here in Latin America, so I'm not surprised from the inside it looked good, looking from the outside it seems like the democracy was eroded / destroyed, with Cuban-style elections where the candidates are appointed by the Chinese government.
obscurette 4y ago
I have relatives in Russia. There is a big gap between how they see the current world and how it's reported in the western media. For them Russia is the last really independent and free country in the world.
- sdfhdhjdw3 4y ago
  I also have friends in Russia, and second this.
- oneoff786 4y ago
  Western Russia? Am curious if they have shared any thoughts on their economic situation?
  - obscurette 4y ago
    Yes, western Russia. For them (and I'm afraid that for majority) there isn't much difference - they are getting their income from state and the only problem they really see is that some things are becoming suddenly much more expensive. But for people remembering soviet times it isn't serious tragedy - they (or their parents) have seen it many times. Disappearing McDonalds, Ikea etc are just signs that USA controls the world and are lame attempts to damage Russia.
    - markdestouches 4y ago
      If one ever wanted to know what's happening in the mind of a frog that is being boiled slowly, this is probably the closest approximation. These people don't understand where the country is going, and when it gets there, they will not be able to recognize what events led to that place, allowing politicians to perpetuate the same nonsensical lies all over again. It sounds dramatic, but I believe the country is doomed and on its way down it will take its neighbors with it.
      - vanattab 4y ago
        Can someone explain this frog in boiling water reference. I had never heard it before and now I have seen it on HN 4 times in 24 hours. What gives?
        oneoff786 4y ago
        It’s a fairly common idiom in eastern US at least. Slowly increase temperatures so so frogs in the water don’t realize they’re in danger. It’s not a real thing though. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog
    - oneoff786 4y ago
      > But for people remembering soviet times it isn't serious tragedy - they (or their parents) have seen it many times I’ve seen this stated before but it seems very confusing. Widespread poverty sucks. There’s no way people are fine with returning to it because they saw it decades ago. Surely nobody thinks that’s ok?
      - obscurette 4y ago
        It's complicated (surprise). But much of it comes from deep russian culture - there has been no private ownership concept. The tsar is the only owner of everything and gives or takes if he decides to do so. It doesn't matter how rich and/or powerful you are. People are just used to it that rulers sometimes give and sometimes take all back. "Lost everything? It's normal, life goes on."
- senttoschool 4y ago
  https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3131467/us-offer-millions-new-funds-take-china https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3131467/us-offe...
  - rnk 4y ago
    The US is far from blameless about our actions in the world, but that doesn't excuse the attack on their own citizens in Russia or China. To see the ultimate difference between the US and China and Russia, make a public comment criticizing the government in public, on TV, in the newspaper. In the US, I don't lose my job, the police don't come to my house, I am not ostracized by my neighbor. Maybe I'm encouraged to write editorials to expand on my ideas or even run for office. Whether I'm supporting the current leader or government or the opposition candidate from a previous election, I'm still free. In China or Russia you are not. No one monitored my high school teachers via camera to see if they reported anything that was against the party rule.
- handsclean 4y ago
  To be clear, this isn’t the “I can do what I want” kind of freedom, this is the “my country can do what it wants” kind of freedom, right? Because if we’re talking about personal freedom, then can you help me understand how they square it with an admitted dictatorship and a (reputation for a) culture of “don’t make trouble, just endure it”?
  - vkou 4y ago
    Not the parent poster, but yes, I also have relatives in Russia (for a double helping of irony, some of them are ethnic Ukrainians who have fully drunk the Russian kool-aid), and yes, you are pretty much correct. They don't like to talk about domestic problems, but will happily talk your ear off about how under Putin, the south^w^wRussia will rise again on the international stage. They are, of course, utterly delusional.
- jl6 4y ago
  > independent and free If we interpret this to mean independent and free to set its own foreign policy, independent of conformance to the global rules-based order, then I think it’s true. There is pride in answering to no-one. Unfortunately they appear to be using that freedom to trample on the freedom of other countries.
  - miohtama 4y ago
    There is also no freedom of press or politics. No freedom to criticise Putin.
    - dmoy 4y ago
      Yea the country can be free of external influence, while the people are not free. Or v. versa. Or both, or neither.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - actionfromafar 4y ago
    And thus using that freedom to paint themselves into an ever-smaller corner.
- NicoJuicy 4y ago
  Untill they say the word "war" in public. I think most of us are aware of how propaganda works.
- markdestouches 4y ago
  I'm not trying to be mean, but, perhaps your relatives are watching too much state TV. I also have relatives in there, and, unfortunately, a lot among the elder generation are irreversibly brainwashed.
rnk 4y ago
You can't run for the local legislature unless you are approved. They stop some people from leaving at the airport if they protested. They arrest you for minor acts of resistance like the color of your shirt. They removed statues that were commemorating the Tiananmen Square protests. If you are a westerner then maybe you can keep living your life though.
- djbebs 4y ago
  - AyyWS 4y ago
    The fact that you can talk this nonsense here proves the difference between HK and the west.
- pphysch 4y ago
  - xdennis 4y ago
    > Your country does all these things. You're simply not being serious. In the US you can commemorate any massacre that happened in the US. In Hong Kong you're no longer allowed to commemorate the Tiananmen massacre.
    - pphysch 4y ago
      Who isn't being serious here? In parts of USA you are forbidden from glorifying the biggest separatist crisis, the Civil War. The US government actively destroys monuments to the separatist side of the civil war. Please, get a broader perspective.
      - krastanov 4y ago
        In the US elected representatives in a few places have decided to remove statues of proponents of slavery, after significant public pressure. This is not happening to statues commemorating deaths of soldiers or protestors. And nothing stops you from waving a confederate flag and "celebrating your heritage" if that is your belief system. Actually, the state-funded police department would at least pretend to send officers to separate you from counter-protesters and attempt to make sure both sides are protected. This seems quite different from removing statues commemorating student protests (that went bloody due to state violence)
xxpor 4y ago
So you can pop on down to your local news stand and still find the Apple Daily?
picsao 4y ago
verall 4y ago
I too lived in HK during the protests. The protests were both about lofty things like political self-determination and about mundane things like access to housing. Since the protests, their politics is completely controlled by the mainland; their last bits of wiggle room removed. I remember clearly the lead up to and results of the 2019 district election, with its unprecedented turnout and results. I'm curious what you feel the gap was since I rarely read western media about the protests while I lived there.
EGreg 4y ago
We need more of these comments, but with video and please elaborate!
pca006132 4y ago
I live in HK since I was born and is still in HK now, I agree that there are gaps between the western media and the reality, but I think they are not far from the truth. I was not involved in political activities at all, but still went out to protest for the first (and last, currently) time in 2019. The situation escalated quickly, and for reasons that I cannot understand, some protesters started to act violently, which we know from history that the CCP will not compromise and protestors have no chance of winning the fight... And then there is the national security law, using the pandemic as an excuse to ban every protests, etc. People either leave or become silent. Actually I am not sure why I would want to write this, perhaps I just wanted to say something like this for a long time but was too afraid to. Some of the protesters were illogical at the time, so saying that their action is naive and will only worsen the situation may cause me trouble. Writing these now may trigger the police, although I don't think they will arrest me due to this alone.
- robk 4y ago
  Were they plants by the ccp to justify violently putting down the protests?
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    That's the wrong thinking. During the BLM protests, there were almost certainly people who went too far, or took advantage of the chaos to create mayhem. They were not plants by the conservative right, it's just a natural thing that happens, people are unreliable like that. During the HK protests, I can imagine the same thing happening. Actually, in only a few cases where a strong leader and organization is involved (MLK, Gandhi, etc...) can protests be largely peaceful and more effective (not giving the other side an excuse to crackdown without losing face, and even these movements weren't perfect).
    - throwaway2037 4y ago
      I like your post, and I feel the same. If 100K protesters show up to protest about a police killing (BLM, et al), but 5 misbehave, does that mean all 100K are bad people? Of course, no. I would say exactly the same about the police. I write this as someone who respects the work that police do to secure our communities, but I also strongly support the BLM protests against grotestque police brutality against black and brown people in the United States.
chitowneats 4y ago
Some important things have happened since the protests.
xadhominemx 4y ago
Hard to me more incorrect. Unbelievable.

markles 4y ago

Autonomous in name, but the politics have changed dramatically as laws have changed. It's not the same Hong Kong.

GFischer 4y ago

I've seen how local media manipulates things here in Latin America, so I'm not surprised from the inside it looked good, looking from the outside it seems like the democracy was eroded / destroyed, with Cuban-style elections where the candidates are appointed by the Chinese government.

obscurette 4y ago

I have relatives in Russia. There is a big gap between how they see the current world and how it's reported in the western media. For them Russia is the last really independent and free country in the world.

sdfhdhjdw3 4y ago
I also have friends in Russia, and second this.
oneoff786 4y ago
Western Russia? Am curious if they have shared any thoughts on their economic situation?
- obscurette 4y ago
  Yes, western Russia. For them (and I'm afraid that for majority) there isn't much difference - they are getting their income from state and the only problem they really see is that some things are becoming suddenly much more expensive. But for people remembering soviet times it isn't serious tragedy - they (or their parents) have seen it many times. Disappearing McDonalds, Ikea etc are just signs that USA controls the world and are lame attempts to damage Russia.
  - markdestouches 4y ago
    If one ever wanted to know what's happening in the mind of a frog that is being boiled slowly, this is probably the closest approximation. These people don't understand where the country is going, and when it gets there, they will not be able to recognize what events led to that place, allowing politicians to perpetuate the same nonsensical lies all over again. It sounds dramatic, but I believe the country is doomed and on its way down it will take its neighbors with it.
    - vanattab 4y ago
      Can someone explain this frog in boiling water reference. I had never heard it before and now I have seen it on HN 4 times in 24 hours. What gives?
      - oneoff786 4y ago
        It’s a fairly common idiom in eastern US at least. Slowly increase temperatures so so frogs in the water don’t realize they’re in danger. It’s not a real thing though. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    > But for people remembering soviet times it isn't serious tragedy - they (or their parents) have seen it many times I’ve seen this stated before but it seems very confusing. Widespread poverty sucks. There’s no way people are fine with returning to it because they saw it decades ago. Surely nobody thinks that’s ok?
    - obscurette 4y ago
      It's complicated (surprise). But much of it comes from deep russian culture - there has been no private ownership concept. The tsar is the only owner of everything and gives or takes if he decides to do so. It doesn't matter how rich and/or powerful you are. People are just used to it that rulers sometimes give and sometimes take all back. "Lost everything? It's normal, life goes on."
senttoschool 4y ago
https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3131467/us-offer-millions-new-funds-take-china https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3131467/us-offe...
- rnk 4y ago
  The US is far from blameless about our actions in the world, but that doesn't excuse the attack on their own citizens in Russia or China. To see the ultimate difference between the US and China and Russia, make a public comment criticizing the government in public, on TV, in the newspaper. In the US, I don't lose my job, the police don't come to my house, I am not ostracized by my neighbor. Maybe I'm encouraged to write editorials to expand on my ideas or even run for office. Whether I'm supporting the current leader or government or the opposition candidate from a previous election, I'm still free. In China or Russia you are not. No one monitored my high school teachers via camera to see if they reported anything that was against the party rule.
handsclean 4y ago
To be clear, this isn’t the “I can do what I want” kind of freedom, this is the “my country can do what it wants” kind of freedom, right? Because if we’re talking about personal freedom, then can you help me understand how they square it with an admitted dictatorship and a (reputation for a) culture of “don’t make trouble, just endure it”?
- vkou 4y ago
  Not the parent poster, but yes, I also have relatives in Russia (for a double helping of irony, some of them are ethnic Ukrainians who have fully drunk the Russian kool-aid), and yes, you are pretty much correct. They don't like to talk about domestic problems, but will happily talk your ear off about how under Putin, the south^w^wRussia will rise again on the international stage. They are, of course, utterly delusional.
jl6 4y ago
> independent and free If we interpret this to mean independent and free to set its own foreign policy, independent of conformance to the global rules-based order, then I think it’s true. There is pride in answering to no-one. Unfortunately they appear to be using that freedom to trample on the freedom of other countries.
- miohtama 4y ago
  There is also no freedom of press or politics. No freedom to criticise Putin.
  - dmoy 4y ago
    Yea the country can be free of external influence, while the people are not free. Or v. versa. Or both, or neither.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- actionfromafar 4y ago
  And thus using that freedom to paint themselves into an ever-smaller corner.
NicoJuicy 4y ago
Untill they say the word "war" in public. I think most of us are aware of how propaganda works.
markdestouches 4y ago
I'm not trying to be mean, but, perhaps your relatives are watching too much state TV. I also have relatives in there, and, unfortunately, a lot among the elder generation are irreversibly brainwashed.

rnk 4y ago

You can't run for the local legislature unless you are approved. They stop some people from leaving at the airport if they protested. They arrest you for minor acts of resistance like the color of your shirt. They removed statues that were commemorating the Tiananmen Square protests. If you are a westerner then maybe you can keep living your life though.

djbebs 4y ago
- AyyWS 4y ago
  The fact that you can talk this nonsense here proves the difference between HK and the west.
pphysch 4y ago
- xdennis 4y ago
  > Your country does all these things. You're simply not being serious. In the US you can commemorate any massacre that happened in the US. In Hong Kong you're no longer allowed to commemorate the Tiananmen massacre.
  - pphysch 4y ago
    Who isn't being serious here? In parts of USA you are forbidden from glorifying the biggest separatist crisis, the Civil War. The US government actively destroys monuments to the separatist side of the civil war. Please, get a broader perspective.
    - krastanov 4y ago
      In the US elected representatives in a few places have decided to remove statues of proponents of slavery, after significant public pressure. This is not happening to statues commemorating deaths of soldiers or protestors. And nothing stops you from waving a confederate flag and "celebrating your heritage" if that is your belief system. Actually, the state-funded police department would at least pretend to send officers to separate you from counter-protesters and attempt to make sure both sides are protected. This seems quite different from removing statues commemorating student protests (that went bloody due to state violence)

xxpor 4y ago

So you can pop on down to your local news stand and still find the Apple Daily?

picsao 4y ago

verall 4y ago

I too lived in HK during the protests. The protests were both about lofty things like political self-determination and about mundane things like access to housing. Since the protests, their politics is completely controlled by the mainland; their last bits of wiggle room removed. I remember clearly the lead up to and results of the 2019 district election, with its unprecedented turnout and results. I'm curious what you feel the gap was since I rarely read western media about the protests while I lived there.

EGreg 4y ago

We need more of these comments, but with video and please elaborate!

pca006132 4y ago

I live in HK since I was born and is still in HK now, I agree that there are gaps between the western media and the reality, but I think they are not far from the truth. I was not involved in political activities at all, but still went out to protest for the first (and last, currently) time in 2019. The situation escalated quickly, and for reasons that I cannot understand, some protesters started to act violently, which we know from history that the CCP will not compromise and protestors have no chance of winning the fight... And then there is the national security law, using the pandemic as an excuse to ban every protests, etc. People either leave or become silent. Actually I am not sure why I would want to write this, perhaps I just wanted to say something like this for a long time but was too afraid to. Some of the protesters were illogical at the time, so saying that their action is naive and will only worsen the situation may cause me trouble. Writing these now may trigger the police, although I don't think they will arrest me due to this alone.

robk 4y ago
Were they plants by the ccp to justify violently putting down the protests?
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  That's the wrong thinking. During the BLM protests, there were almost certainly people who went too far, or took advantage of the chaos to create mayhem. They were not plants by the conservative right, it's just a natural thing that happens, people are unreliable like that. During the HK protests, I can imagine the same thing happening. Actually, in only a few cases where a strong leader and organization is involved (MLK, Gandhi, etc...) can protests be largely peaceful and more effective (not giving the other side an excuse to crackdown without losing face, and even these movements weren't perfect).
  - throwaway2037 4y ago
    I like your post, and I feel the same. If 100K protesters show up to protest about a police killing (BLM, et al), but 5 misbehave, does that mean all 100K are bad people? Of course, no. I would say exactly the same about the police. I write this as someone who respects the work that police do to secure our communities, but I also strongly support the BLM protests against grotestque police brutality against black and brown people in the United States.

chitowneats 4y ago

Some important things have happened since the protests.

xadhominemx 4y ago

Hard to me more incorrect. Unbelievable.