11 ms·
In retrospect, it was pretty naive to think China would allow Hong Kong's autonomous status to persist. If nothing else it would give people in other areas of C
by mikece 4y ago
In retrospect, it was pretty naive to think China would allow Hong Kong's autonomous status to persist. If nothing else it would give people in other areas of China the possible hope that they could attain a similar status. It's also a clear message to the Taiwanese what will happen if the PRC gets control of their island.
- senttoschool 4y agoIt is still autonomous. Nothing has really changed. I lived in HK during the protests. There is a big gap between what was being reported in the western media (which I assume you consumed) and what was actually true.
- markles 4y agoAutonomous in name, but the politics have changed dramatically as laws have changed. It's not the same Hong Kong.
- GFischer 4y agoI've seen how local media manipulates things here in Latin America, so I'm not surprised from the inside it looked good, looking from the outside it seems like the democracy was eroded / destroyed, with Cuban-style elections where the candidates are appointed by the Chinese government.
- obscurette 4y agoI have relatives in Russia. There is a big gap between how they see the current world and how it's reported in the western media. For them Russia is the last really independent and free country in the world.
- sdfhdhjdw3 4y agoI also have friends in Russia, and second this.
- oneoff786 4y agoWestern Russia? Am curious if they have shared any thoughts on their economic situation?
- obscurette 4y agoYes, western Russia. For them (and I'm afraid that for majority) there isn't much difference - they are getting their income from state and the only problem they really see is that some things are becoming suddenly much more expensive. But for people remembering soviet times it isn't serious tragedy - they (or their parents) have seen it many times. Disappearing McDonalds, Ikea etc are just signs that USA controls the world and are lame attempts to damage Russia.
- markdestouches 4y agoIf one ever wanted to know what's happening in the mind of a frog that is being boiled slowly, this is probably the closest approximation. These people don't understand where the country is going, and when it gets there, they will not be able to recognize what events led to that place, allowing politicians to perpetuate the same nonsensical lies all over again. It sounds dramatic, but I believe the country is doomed and on its way down it will take its neighbors with it.
- vanattab 4y agoCan someone explain this frog in boiling water reference. I had never heard it before and now I have seen it on HN 4 times in 24 hours. What gives?
- oneoff786 4y agoIt’s a fairly common idiom in eastern US at least. Slowly increase temperatures so so frogs in the water don’t realize they’re in danger. It’s not a real thing though. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog
- 4y ago
- senttoschool 4y agohttps://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3131467/us-offer-millions-new-funds-take-china https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3131467/us-offe...
- rnk 4y agoThe US is far from blameless about our actions in the world, but that doesn't excuse the attack on their own citizens in Russia or China. To see the ultimate difference between the US and China and Russia, make a public comment criticizing the government in public, on TV, in the newspaper. In the US, I don't lose my job, the police don't come to my house, I am not ostracized by my neighbor. Maybe I'm encouraged to write editorials to expand on my ideas or even run for office. Whether I'm supporting the current leader or government or the opposition candidate from a previous election, I'm still free. In China or Russia you are not. No one monitored my high school teachers via camera to see if they reported anything that was against the party rule.
- handsclean 4y agoTo be clear, this isn’t the “I can do what I want” kind of freedom, this is the “my country can do what it wants” kind of freedom, right? Because if we’re talking about personal freedom, then can you help me understand how they square it with an admitted dictatorship and a (reputation for a) culture of “don’t make trouble, just endure it”?
- vkou 4y agoNot the parent poster, but yes, I also have relatives in Russia (for a double helping of irony, some of them are ethnic Ukrainians who have fully drunk the Russian kool-aid), and yes, you are pretty much correct. They don't like to talk about domestic problems, but will happily talk your ear off about how under Putin, the south^w^wRussia will rise again on the international stage. They are, of course, utterly delusional.
- jl6 4y ago> independent and free If we interpret this to mean independent and free to set its own foreign policy, independent of conformance to the global rules-based order, then I think it’s true. There is pride in answering to no-one. Unfortunately they appear to be using that freedom to trample on the freedom of other countries.
- miohtama 4y agoThere is also no freedom of press or politics. No freedom to criticise Putin.
- dmoy 4y agoYea the country can be free of external influence, while the people are not free. Or v. versa. Or both, or neither.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- actionfromafar 4y agoAnd thus using that freedom to paint themselves into an ever-smaller corner.
- NicoJuicy 4y agoUntill they say the word "war" in public. I think most of us are aware of how propaganda works.
- markdestouches 4y agoI'm not trying to be mean, but, perhaps your relatives are watching too much state TV. I also have relatives in there, and, unfortunately, a lot among the elder generation are irreversibly brainwashed.
- rnk 4y agoYou can't run for the local legislature unless you are approved. They stop some people from leaving at the airport if they protested. They arrest you for minor acts of resistance like the color of your shirt. They removed statues that were commemorating the Tiananmen Square protests. If you are a westerner then maybe you can keep living your life though.
- djbebs 4y ago
- AyyWS 4y agoThe fact that you can talk this nonsense here proves the difference between HK and the west.
- pphysch 4y ago
- xdennis 4y ago> Your country does all these things. You're simply not being serious. In the US you can commemorate any massacre that happened in the US. In Hong Kong you're no longer allowed to commemorate the Tiananmen massacre.
- pphysch 4y agoWho isn't being serious here? In parts of USA you are forbidden from glorifying the biggest separatist crisis, the Civil War. The US government actively destroys monuments to the separatist side of the civil war. Please, get a broader perspective.
- krastanov 4y agoIn the US elected representatives in a few places have decided to remove statues of proponents of slavery, after significant public pressure. This is not happening to statues commemorating deaths of soldiers or protestors. And nothing stops you from waving a confederate flag and "celebrating your heritage" if that is your belief system. Actually, the state-funded police department would at least pretend to send officers to separate you from counter-protesters and attempt to make sure both sides are protected. This seems quite different from removing statues commemorating student protests (that went bloody due to state violence)
- xxpor 4y agoSo you can pop on down to your local news stand and still find the Apple Daily?
- picsao 4y ago
- verall 4y agoI too lived in HK during the protests. The protests were both about lofty things like political self-determination and about mundane things like access to housing. Since the protests, their politics is completely controlled by the mainland; their last bits of wiggle room removed. I remember clearly the lead up to and results of the 2019 district election, with its unprecedented turnout and results. I'm curious what you feel the gap was since I rarely read western media about the protests while I lived there.
- EGreg 4y agoWe need more of these comments, but with video and please elaborate!
- pca006132 4y agoI live in HK since I was born and is still in HK now, I agree that there are gaps between the western media and the reality, but I think they are not far from the truth. I was not involved in political activities at all, but still went out to protest for the first (and last, currently) time in 2019. The situation escalated quickly, and for reasons that I cannot understand, some protesters started to act violently, which we know from history that the CCP will not compromise and protestors have no chance of winning the fight... And then there is the national security law, using the pandemic as an excuse to ban every protests, etc. People either leave or become silent. Actually I am not sure why I would want to write this, perhaps I just wanted to say something like this for a long time but was too afraid to. Some of the protesters were illogical at the time, so saying that their action is naive and will only worsen the situation may cause me trouble. Writing these now may trigger the police, although I don't think they will arrest me due to this alone.
- robk 4y agoWere they plants by the ccp to justify violently putting down the protests?
- seanmcdirmid 4y agoThat's the wrong thinking. During the BLM protests, there were almost certainly people who went too far, or took advantage of the chaos to create mayhem. They were not plants by the conservative right, it's just a natural thing that happens, people are unreliable like that. During the HK protests, I can imagine the same thing happening. Actually, in only a few cases where a strong leader and organization is involved (MLK, Gandhi, etc...) can protests be largely peaceful and more effective (not giving the other side an excuse to crackdown without losing face, and even these movements weren't perfect).
- throwaway2037 4y agoI like your post, and I feel the same. If 100K protesters show up to protest about a police killing (BLM, et al), but 5 misbehave, does that mean all 100K are bad people? Of course, no. I would say exactly the same about the police. I write this as someone who respects the work that police do to secure our communities, but I also strongly support the BLM protests against grotestque police brutality against black and brown people in the United States.
- chitowneats 4y agoSome important things have happened since the protests.
- xadhominemx 4y agoHard to me more incorrect. Unbelievable.
- stjohnswarts 4y agoYeah, I mean it could have held out longer but Hong Kong was doomed to just become just another CCP victim.
- kzrdude 4y agoThe agreement with China was signed by Thatcher. That's long ago, mid-1980s. At the time, they were naively certain that increased economic liberalization and increased market economic activity in China would lead to political freedom as well. (Same about 1990s Russia: the west hoped a new economic system would lead to political freedom. Wishful thinking?)
- aluminum96 4y agoMaybe it was wishful thinking, but it also worked in several cases! South Korea was a high-profile success of this strategy, for instance, with a successful transition to democracy in the 90s.
- pjc50 4y agoThis is kind of memory-holed, possibly because South Korea was a US ally long before it was a democracy, and "west aligned" tended to trump "democratic" a lot.
- jpgvm 4y agoWest-aligned still trumps democratic. The West generally doesn't have a problem with authoritarianism but rather with competition or obstruction of their economic goals. When the opposite is true they will gladly turn a blind eye to any number of atrocities. See here: Saudi-Arabia, Oman, UAE, Philippines, Egypt (military junta), Turkey, etc. If being friendly with an authoritarian state yields economic or military geographical advantage then that overrides any ideological hang-ups involved.
- kragen 4y agoAlso Indonesia, Taiwan, Japan, and much of Latin America had capitalist dictatorships before democracy. But I don't think it was free markets that led to democracy in those cases so much as it was US political influence.
- throwaway2037 4y ago
- HWR_14 4y agoThere were two main reasons they may have let Hong Kong be somewhat independent. One is a message to Taiwan that quasi reunification is in the cards, and they can totally trust China enough to become a semiautonomous district. The second is that it was handy to have a place with Western friendly rules to coordinate international trade.
- throwaway2037 4y agoYes, it is a nice place to launder your money from Mainland China.
- seanmcdirmid 4y agoThe mainland originally let Hong Kong be because it was almost their only outlet for trade while China was closed in the 50s-early 80s. It lost that purpose as China opened up. Macau has always been the place to launder money away from Mainland China, the casinos were convenient for that until Xi cracked down.
- philliphaydon 4y ago> reunification Unification. You can’t reunify something that wasn’t once unified. But in any case China screwed that up because the world and Taiwan have seen what China has done and is doing and Taiwan doesn’t want any part of it.
- vanattab 4y agoI mean I am not saying china has a right to Taiwan, but Taiwan and parts of the mainland have been under unified rule for much of history.
- philliphaydon 4y agoTaiwans history with China is like 7 years.
- HWR_14 4y ago
- opportune 4y agoRegarding Taiwan, that doesn’t make sense to me. It would be smarter to let HK persist to convince Taiwan there is no threat to re-unification so that they move towards annexation willingly. Showing that annexation means loss of freedoms incentivizes Taiwan to hold out and gives them something to fight for. I think the CCP’s strategy is much simpler. They don’t expect Taiwan to be annexed any time soon, they just want to quell dissent in China. I believe popular opinion among Mainlanders is that HK citizens are spoiled drama queens (negative sentiment) so a display of force is a way of showing internally that HK - once a far more prosperous part of China, that saw itself as superior/gave mainlanders an inferiority complex - is now subservient to China. Basically a demonstration that China is a rising power (internally)
- hh3k0 4y ago>It would be smarter to let HK persist to convince Taiwan there is no threat to re-unification so that they move towards annexation willingly. It's a display of strength, in my opinion. "Struggle all you want, but in the end we will have our way with you." I'm not a geopolitical expert or anything but I fully expect China to take Taiwan by force while the West is busy with Russia. I'm fairly certain that we couldn't effectively sanction both China _and_ Russia
- bobthepanda 4y agoIf it did happen, it'd probably be the worst war we've seen, full stop. The US is still giving out Purple Hearts medals meant for the land invasion of Japan, which was expected to be horrific in terms of casualties due to the terrain. In this context, the US actually investigated and totally gave up on the idea of a land invasion of Taiwan, because the geography is so much worse; there are very few flat beaches from which to do an amphibious D-day style landing, and all of them are a few km away from mountains from which to rain down artillery.
- CorrectHorseBat 4y agoI can't imagine it going any better than Russia's invasion. Taiwan is all mountains, there's a sea in between with 13 beaches where they can land and China's military has no experience whatsoever. It would literally be shooting fish in a barrel for the Taiwanese army.
- newsclues 4y agoAlmost like the West ceded it’s global power by allowing China to rise. Like how we shipped factories to China.
- kzrdude 4y agoDid the West control the world and could it do anything to stop China? It's something organic that can't really be controlled once the technologies are there for a global technology (edit: I mean a global economy), I think.
- goodpoint 4y agoRich countries in very much control their international trade agreements and are 100% responsible for where they invest.
- newsclues 4y agoYes, the West did control the world after WW2 Do something about China? Like shipping factory machines wholesale? The idiots in charge built up the Chinese into a manufacturing superpower!
- SllX 4y agoIf the technology was the only thing that mattered you would expect India to be on par with the PRC in terms of GDP and growth. We invested specifically and heavily into the PRC, and there’s a case to be made that that was a mistake as long as the CCP was the exclusive dominant political party within the PRC because right now, it’s still that. Not that a democratic China is necessarily a friendly China, but it’s at least one we wouldn’t have to trade against our liberal values to trade with.