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Which is a shame because the low-end stuff is what makes an economy tick. And is the training grounds for engineers and tradesmen. I also think it will help us

Which is a shame because the low-end stuff is what makes an economy tick. And is the training grounds for engineers and tradesmen. I also think it will help us as a society if we let people work rather mundane jobs that make essential products and receive good living wages. “I make a living making the bolts that keep your fancy EV together.” Service economy be damned. That boat has long since sailed I’m afraid but maybe we can bring it back somehow. I remain hopeful.

dgb23 4y ago
Also more sophisticated industries evolve out of more basic ones in non-intuitive ways. For example in CH, pharma evolved from dyeworks. Imperialism isn’t a necessity or even a proper answer. You need local expertise, education and decent living standards.
- hotpotamus 4y ago
  CH as in Confoederatio Helvetica?
  - wyldfire 4y ago
    CH is an abbreviation for Switzerland (ISO country codes).
    - hotpotamus 4y ago
      Guess what the CH stands for ;) I just haven't seen it used in context like that and would encourage people not to use abbreviations when possible.
jotm 4y ago
It works in Germany (and Nordic countries). Assembling washing machines is tedious, but not that hard, and it pays well enough to buy a flat or even a house after years on the job. Cutting and welding metal containers all day long pays even better. But these are industries where you don't job hop every couple of years - you do it for decades and your wage rises accordingly. It's hard work, but there's always people who can do it and want to do it.
- UncleEntity 4y ago
  They don’t share a border with a country with cheap labor and basically a failed state in the northern regions where you can just throw up a factory and truck the finished goods a few kilometers back over the border. When that is too much then just import the cheap labor and keep them in a state where they are too scared to report labor violations. If we could figure out a way to equally exploit the Canadians we’d be set for generations.
  - Jensson 4y ago
    > They don’t share a border with a country with cheap labor Poland has been used for cheap labor ever since the fall of Soviet. Only difference is that Poland got a lot less cheap over the years, while Mexico seems to never stop being poor.
  - jotm 4y ago
    Romania, Bulgaria (and soon likely Ukraine) are the Mexico of the EU. It's actually beneficial to the workers - 6 months at basically ~1500 Euros saved per month = 9000 Euros. 5-10 years of these "deployments" and you buy a nice house. But yeah, there's plenty of labour to feed smarter countries' industrial machines. I say "smarter" because the governments of RO/BG are absolute shite at improving conditions for startups/small business - you know, the things that become big business and bring in money, keep workers, etc given the chance and time. DE/NL/SE/etc know how countries become "developed".
- mediaman 4y ago
  Visit Rhineland, and you'll see the impact globalization has had on Germany. They are not immune to it. For example, Siemens has shut down a number of industrial plants over the years, shifting production to both Eastern Europe and China.
missedthecue 4y ago
Comparitive advantage is a fundamental principle and cannot be violated, at least without causing a lot of nasty long term consequences
- imtringued 4y ago
  Comparative advantage is mostly nonsense because humans are extremely good generalists and pretty much every country has every industry to some degree.
  - xxpor 4y ago
    Civilization itself is the specialization of society.
- 988747 4y ago
  Comparative advantage only works in a globalized economy with free trade - the world that is now ending.
- pydry 4y ago
  The neoclassical theory of (static) comparative advantage is dead and buried. It was originally a kind of academic pretext for justifying exploitation of third world resources. Then western economists drank their own koolaid. They then tutted paternalistically at China in the 90s for engaging in export oriented industrialization and keeping their capital markets on a tight leash. They argued that China was shooting itself in the foot and should stick to things they were good at like making cheap tacky toys and clothes and open up their capital markets. Those 90s New York Times op eds hailing comparative advantage and chastising China aged really badly.
  - fsckboy 4y ago
    China would do better economically if they were open to more trade and competition, they are shooting themselves in the foot compared to where their economy could go. and comparative advantage operates just fine without trade barriers. Since it's just a mathematical relationship, i.e. it can't be wrong, it also operates with trade barriers, just not as efficiently.
abakker 4y ago
another problem, though, is that as production methods change, there becomes less meaningful low-end work. Making bolts might have been a basic job at some point, but is basically only done by large automated machines now, or in small batches to incredibly high tolerance on CNCs. The thing we need to bring back is the full supply chain. E.g. it doesn't make sense to build things here if 90% of the components come from Shenzhen.
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  I'm not sure how representative it is, but there are still people making bolts with very labor-intensive, 19th century technology. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxZYPG1ADPg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxZYPG1ADPg There are endless similar videos of people making simple machined, cast, or forged parts by hand like this, in horribly unsafe conditions, at least by today's workplace standards.
  - UncleEntity 4y ago
    Ironically, people making things out of wood using very labor intensive, hundreds of years old technology is very much in demand. I was watching a video on the YouTubes where they were doing a large casting in the UK and I can’t imagine it was much different to how it was done a hundred years ago when the original thing they were copying was made. Other than better ppe with all the space tech I’d guess but as a casual observer it looked “horribly unsafe”.
tppiotrowski 4y ago
Manufacturing is similar to coding. You outsource the basic functionality to third-party libraries and create value on top of that. At some point, the inability to control your external dependencies obscure how your code actually run, introduce bugs and security exploits. People then swear off third party code and start writing the basics themselves or at least stop updating their dependencies.
amelius 4y ago
Also, how are we going to invent better bolts if we keep moving our knowledge to the least educated countries?
- quartesixte 4y ago
  Exactly! Inspiration to make improvements to the nuts and bolts requires daily, constant exposure to the nuts and bolts. There is a lifetime of knowledge required sometimes.

dgb23 4y ago

Also more sophisticated industries evolve out of more basic ones in non-intuitive ways. For example in CH, pharma evolved from dyeworks. Imperialism isn’t a necessity or even a proper answer. You need local expertise, education and decent living standards.

hotpotamus 4y ago
CH as in Confoederatio Helvetica?
- wyldfire 4y ago
  CH is an abbreviation for Switzerland (ISO country codes).
  - hotpotamus 4y ago
    Guess what the CH stands for ;) I just haven't seen it used in context like that and would encourage people not to use abbreviations when possible.

jotm 4y ago

It works in Germany (and Nordic countries). Assembling washing machines is tedious, but not that hard, and it pays well enough to buy a flat or even a house after years on the job. Cutting and welding metal containers all day long pays even better. But these are industries where you don't job hop every couple of years - you do it for decades and your wage rises accordingly. It's hard work, but there's always people who can do it and want to do it.

UncleEntity 4y ago
They don’t share a border with a country with cheap labor and basically a failed state in the northern regions where you can just throw up a factory and truck the finished goods a few kilometers back over the border. When that is too much then just import the cheap labor and keep them in a state where they are too scared to report labor violations. If we could figure out a way to equally exploit the Canadians we’d be set for generations.
- Jensson 4y ago
  > They don’t share a border with a country with cheap labor Poland has been used for cheap labor ever since the fall of Soviet. Only difference is that Poland got a lot less cheap over the years, while Mexico seems to never stop being poor.
- jotm 4y ago
  Romania, Bulgaria (and soon likely Ukraine) are the Mexico of the EU. It's actually beneficial to the workers - 6 months at basically ~1500 Euros saved per month = 9000 Euros. 5-10 years of these "deployments" and you buy a nice house. But yeah, there's plenty of labour to feed smarter countries' industrial machines. I say "smarter" because the governments of RO/BG are absolute shite at improving conditions for startups/small business - you know, the things that become big business and bring in money, keep workers, etc given the chance and time. DE/NL/SE/etc know how countries become "developed".
mediaman 4y ago
Visit Rhineland, and you'll see the impact globalization has had on Germany. They are not immune to it. For example, Siemens has shut down a number of industrial plants over the years, shifting production to both Eastern Europe and China.

missedthecue 4y ago

Comparitive advantage is a fundamental principle and cannot be violated, at least without causing a lot of nasty long term consequences

imtringued 4y ago
Comparative advantage is mostly nonsense because humans are extremely good generalists and pretty much every country has every industry to some degree.
- xxpor 4y ago
  Civilization itself is the specialization of society.
988747 4y ago
Comparative advantage only works in a globalized economy with free trade - the world that is now ending.
pydry 4y ago
The neoclassical theory of (static) comparative advantage is dead and buried. It was originally a kind of academic pretext for justifying exploitation of third world resources. Then western economists drank their own koolaid. They then tutted paternalistically at China in the 90s for engaging in export oriented industrialization and keeping their capital markets on a tight leash. They argued that China was shooting itself in the foot and should stick to things they were good at like making cheap tacky toys and clothes and open up their capital markets. Those 90s New York Times op eds hailing comparative advantage and chastising China aged really badly.
- fsckboy 4y ago
  China would do better economically if they were open to more trade and competition, they are shooting themselves in the foot compared to where their economy could go. and comparative advantage operates just fine without trade barriers. Since it's just a mathematical relationship, i.e. it can't be wrong, it also operates with trade barriers, just not as efficiently.

abakker 4y ago

another problem, though, is that as production methods change, there becomes less meaningful low-end work. Making bolts might have been a basic job at some point, but is basically only done by large automated machines now, or in small batches to incredibly high tolerance on CNCs. The thing we need to bring back is the full supply chain. E.g. it doesn't make sense to build things here if 90% of the components come from Shenzhen.

SoftTalker 4y ago
I'm not sure how representative it is, but there are still people making bolts with very labor-intensive, 19th century technology. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxZYPG1ADPg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxZYPG1ADPg There are endless similar videos of people making simple machined, cast, or forged parts by hand like this, in horribly unsafe conditions, at least by today's workplace standards.
- UncleEntity 4y ago
  Ironically, people making things out of wood using very labor intensive, hundreds of years old technology is very much in demand. I was watching a video on the YouTubes where they were doing a large casting in the UK and I can’t imagine it was much different to how it was done a hundred years ago when the original thing they were copying was made. Other than better ppe with all the space tech I’d guess but as a casual observer it looked “horribly unsafe”.

tppiotrowski 4y ago

Manufacturing is similar to coding. You outsource the basic functionality to third-party libraries and create value on top of that. At some point, the inability to control your external dependencies obscure how your code actually run, introduce bugs and security exploits. People then swear off third party code and start writing the basics themselves or at least stop updating their dependencies.

amelius 4y ago

Also, how are we going to invent better bolts if we keep moving our knowledge to the least educated countries?

quartesixte 4y ago
Exactly! Inspiration to make improvements to the nuts and bolts requires daily, constant exposure to the nuts and bolts. There is a lifetime of knowledge required sometimes.