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Just using BTC to replace all of McDonald's daily debit/credit card transactions would completely destroy the system. I don't know why people think they are ref

Just using BTC to replace all of McDonald's daily debit/credit card transactions would completely destroy the system. I don't know why people think they are refuting your argument by pointing out low-volume examples like porn sites.

olalonde 4y ago
You're comparing apples to oranges. Debit/credit card transactions are done through centralized systems. Bitcoin transactions can also be done at scale on those same centralized systems (aka "off-chain transactions").
- LtWorf 4y ago
  Then you are back to having a bank… Then what's the point?
  - once_inc 4y ago
    You have the option to settle down to a decentralized system. Imagine the US still on a gold standard. If you lose trust in USD because of changes in the government (election of obviously corrupt or incompetent officials), you can settle out of the US Dollar to gold, which is apolitical and allows you to be self-sovereign. The breaking of the gold standard has allowed the US government to extend its monetary base significantly, which is a price future generations (read: our generations) will be footing the bill for. I'm a bitcoin maximalist, but I don't mind if all existing banks were to build a second layer that scales vastly, so long as I'm allowed to settle my bitcoin in their ecosystem with bitcoin on chain.
    - silentsea90 4y ago
      THIS. I feel like I keep smashing my head against a wall explaining the same thing to everybody. This isn't quantum mechanics. Why is this so hard to understand for others :(
  - olalonde 4y ago
    Your money can't be debased. You can withdraw your money from your bank (digitally).
once_inc 4y ago
It would. Agreed 100%. This is why second layer solutions are being built, which offer the option of settling on-chain at the user's request. Second layer systems allow you to transact within that system without needing to publish each transaction. Block space is valuable, and your 1c purchase probably isn't worth putting on everyone's hard disk for all eternity. Bitcoin is actively managed to prevent bloat to keep it decentralized. A layered system allows you to scale massively, much like the OSI model used by the internet.
silentsea90 4y ago
Gosh. Have you guys even heard about the Lightning Network? Throughput higher than visa. We're already well past the scale needed to handle the world's txns. https://watcher.guru/news/morgan-stanley-says-bitcoin-lightning-network-is-superior-to-visa https://watcher.guru/news/morgan-stanley-says-bitcoin-lightn...
ben_w 4y ago
Just using BTC to replace all of McDonald's daily transactions in the Berlin metropolitan area alone would be enough to destroy the system. (Of course this is where people come along and talk about layers on top of BTC, but all those seem to me to just be extra ways to replace trivial transaction-level auditing with Turing-hard code auditing).
- dont__panic 4y ago
  It also seems like those "layers on top of BTC" erode one of the only aspects of blockchain that has appeal for me -- the full transparency of the system, such that you can see every exchange of BTC on the network. The minute you offload any of that to other systems, you're essentially creating dark pools and money laundering opportunities because of differential oversight.
  - babypuncher 4y ago
    And you're trusting some central authority to manage your money along with that of countless others. You're right back in the same situation you presumably wanted to avoid with fiat and banks, only with exponentially greater environmental impact and no regulations in place to protect your money when things go FUBAR.
    - adastra22 4y ago
      The L2 systems built on bitcoin have faults, but centralization is not one of them. You don’t go custodial when you put bitcoin into a lightning channel.
      - aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
        and the L2 systems on ETH have even fewer faults.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    If there's one thing that people should correctly point out as scams in the world of crypto, it should be L2 chains. Every single one of them is a ploy to enrich their creator, full-stop. I don't even know what kind of pipe dream they sell to their investors to get capital. It's particularly funny, because I remember Justin Sun trying to scam people like this years before cryptocurrency had really taken off. Back then, though, everyone who had skin in the game actually cared about the health of the community, and the guy lost millions of dollars trying some really insane hostile takeover tactics. Nowadays though, nobody cares. The hucksters of this world make their money hand over fist now.
jrm4 4y ago
But this feels like "Just using Model T's to transport all of the corn in the early 1900's would destroy the Model T system." Doesn't really say anything meaningful about "the impact of cars and trucks." I don't get why this is a useful argument; BTC and/or Crypto is definitely going to evolve. The question is how.
- lumost 4y ago
  The problem, as with many things from the current tech cycle is that the valuation demands that this techomnology is available today. DeFi may need to evolve, and it may need to do something other than blockchain - but something pre-product/market fit shouldn’t have a multi trillion dollar market cap.
- Night_Thastus 4y ago
  [deleted]
  - ipaddr 4y ago
    Most people did not have a car in the early 1900s. Not everyone can go into space today, it doesn't scale. BTC may have a maximum number of transactions today but many are using bitcoin and the big advantage is it doesn't matter how much you move you pay the same transaction fee. It is not ready for micro payments but works great for larger payments.
    - ben_w 4y ago
      What size transaction do you think it helps with? My transaction fees are usually zero, even internationally, with the only exception being trivial costs when I visited the USA. Conversely, when I bought a flat I was legally required to add the much larger in-all-but-name transaction fee of having a lawyer sign off that I and my money and my payment of it and the flat itself and the seller I was buying it from were all legit, and still would have had that even if I'd used BTC.
      - 4y ago

olalonde 4y ago

You're comparing apples to oranges. Debit/credit card transactions are done through centralized systems. Bitcoin transactions can also be done at scale on those same centralized systems (aka "off-chain transactions").

LtWorf 4y ago
Then you are back to having a bank… Then what's the point?
- once_inc 4y ago
  You have the option to settle down to a decentralized system. Imagine the US still on a gold standard. If you lose trust in USD because of changes in the government (election of obviously corrupt or incompetent officials), you can settle out of the US Dollar to gold, which is apolitical and allows you to be self-sovereign. The breaking of the gold standard has allowed the US government to extend its monetary base significantly, which is a price future generations (read: our generations) will be footing the bill for. I'm a bitcoin maximalist, but I don't mind if all existing banks were to build a second layer that scales vastly, so long as I'm allowed to settle my bitcoin in their ecosystem with bitcoin on chain.
  - silentsea90 4y ago
    THIS. I feel like I keep smashing my head against a wall explaining the same thing to everybody. This isn't quantum mechanics. Why is this so hard to understand for others :(
- olalonde 4y ago
  Your money can't be debased. You can withdraw your money from your bank (digitally).

once_inc 4y ago

It would. Agreed 100%. This is why second layer solutions are being built, which offer the option of settling on-chain at the user's request. Second layer systems allow you to transact within that system without needing to publish each transaction. Block space is valuable, and your 1c purchase probably isn't worth putting on everyone's hard disk for all eternity. Bitcoin is actively managed to prevent bloat to keep it decentralized. A layered system allows you to scale massively, much like the OSI model used by the internet.

silentsea90 4y ago

Gosh. Have you guys even heard about the Lightning Network? Throughput higher than visa. We're already well past the scale needed to handle the world's txns. https://watcher.guru/news/morgan-stanley-says-bitcoin-lightning-network-is-superior-to-visa https://watcher.guru/news/morgan-stanley-says-bitcoin-lightn...

ben_w 4y ago

Just using BTC to replace all of McDonald's daily transactions in the Berlin metropolitan area alone would be enough to destroy the system. (Of course this is where people come along and talk about layers on top of BTC, but all those seem to me to just be extra ways to replace trivial transaction-level auditing with Turing-hard code auditing).

dont__panic 4y ago
It also seems like those "layers on top of BTC" erode one of the only aspects of blockchain that has appeal for me -- the full transparency of the system, such that you can see every exchange of BTC on the network. The minute you offload any of that to other systems, you're essentially creating dark pools and money laundering opportunities because of differential oversight.
- babypuncher 4y ago
  And you're trusting some central authority to manage your money along with that of countless others. You're right back in the same situation you presumably wanted to avoid with fiat and banks, only with exponentially greater environmental impact and no regulations in place to protect your money when things go FUBAR.
  - adastra22 4y ago
    The L2 systems built on bitcoin have faults, but centralization is not one of them. You don’t go custodial when you put bitcoin into a lightning channel.
    - aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
      and the L2 systems on ETH have even fewer faults.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  If there's one thing that people should correctly point out as scams in the world of crypto, it should be L2 chains. Every single one of them is a ploy to enrich their creator, full-stop. I don't even know what kind of pipe dream they sell to their investors to get capital. It's particularly funny, because I remember Justin Sun trying to scam people like this years before cryptocurrency had really taken off. Back then, though, everyone who had skin in the game actually cared about the health of the community, and the guy lost millions of dollars trying some really insane hostile takeover tactics. Nowadays though, nobody cares. The hucksters of this world make their money hand over fist now.

jrm4 4y ago

But this feels like "Just using Model T's to transport all of the corn in the early 1900's would destroy the Model T system." Doesn't really say anything meaningful about "the impact of cars and trucks." I don't get why this is a useful argument; BTC and/or Crypto is definitely going to evolve. The question is how.

lumost 4y ago
The problem, as with many things from the current tech cycle is that the valuation demands that this techomnology is available today. DeFi may need to evolve, and it may need to do something other than blockchain - but something pre-product/market fit shouldn’t have a multi trillion dollar market cap.
Night_Thastus 4y ago
[deleted]
- ipaddr 4y ago
  Most people did not have a car in the early 1900s. Not everyone can go into space today, it doesn't scale. BTC may have a maximum number of transactions today but many are using bitcoin and the big advantage is it doesn't matter how much you move you pay the same transaction fee. It is not ready for micro payments but works great for larger payments.
  - ben_w 4y ago
    What size transaction do you think it helps with? My transaction fees are usually zero, even internationally, with the only exception being trivial costs when I visited the USA. Conversely, when I bought a flat I was legally required to add the much larger in-all-but-name transaction fee of having a lawyer sign off that I and my money and my payment of it and the flat itself and the seller I was buying it from were all legit, and still would have had that even if I'd used BTC.
    - 4y ago