4 ms·

William of Rubruck

75 points by benbreen 4y ago

EdwardDiego 4y ago
I wonder how much these travels affected European conceptions of the Mongols? They obviously figured they were important if emissaries were being sent.
- Bayart 4y ago
  At the time the Mongols were in Iran. It's just before the sack of Bagdad. Meanwhile the West was in the Eastern Mediterranean with the Latin states. It's not that far away and they were obviously aware of the Mongols.
- boomboomsubban 4y ago
  Europeans were desperate for an ally against the Muslims so they could retake Jerusalem. These travels led to the "Prestor John" rumors of a far East Christian kingdom who would potentially aid their conquests. Nothing came of it, though the Mongols attacking the region and the Byzantine decision to largely pay them off probably kept the Eastern Roman Empire alive for a few extra centuries.
Someone 4y ago
FTA: “William and his travelling companions set off on horseback on 16 September 1253 on a 9,000-kilometre (5,600 mi) journey to the court of the Great Khan at Karakorum. Arriving in late December…” That’s 9,000 km in about 100 days. Am I right in thinking that’s a quite an accomplishment? The Pony Express did about 300 km/day, but switched horses every 15-25 km.
- pavel_lishin 4y ago
  That's wild. I did a little bit of research on how fast a large group of people can travel more or less on foot, maybe with wagons, and the number I got was about 20 miles a day. 56 miles a day is nearly three times that!
  - trhway 4y ago
    I think that one of the reason for the huge Mongol Empire creation as well as fast partitioning was the short climate period when majority of those territories provided best conditions for horse travel - i.e. not total desert, not swamp/forest, and instead it were plains with climate being just right for the good grass and reasonable rivers.
- fishtockos 4y ago
  From the lower Volga to Karakorum is actually about 5600 km, not 5600 miles. (edit) Still pretty impressive, though, especially in winter
ralfd 4y ago
https://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/rubruck.html https://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/rubruck.html I recommend reading his travel report on Gutenberg, I found it fascinating, honest and … unintentionally funny. William is not only a monk, he is nerding out about catholic theology. But like a true nerd he doesn't seem to notice when enough is enough and he gets on other peoples nerves. I guess he envisioned himself as the intellectual hero who through socratic dialogues can proof logically that the holy Trinity is the coolest jazz ever, but instead his counterparts are getting exasperated and tell him to please go away. Once he finds a buddhist temple and tries to start a good debate with the bald shaved monks in saffran but they just ignore him. On another occasion his interpreter tires out and makes him stop talking. He finally manages to organize at the Khan's Court a religious debate contest with pagans, muslims and nestorians. But he is disappointed that no one contradicts his learned scholastic arguments and they politely praise his religion, before everyone sings loudly and gets drunk. He finally has an audience with the great Khan himself. And the Khan says in the nicest way a great terrible Warlord could: Please go away. Here is a letter to your King of France which you should deliver far far away. And William agrees, but asks: Of course I will do that, but what if I come back? And Batu Khan, ruler and founder of the Golden Horde, grandson of Genghis Khan promises/threatens diplomatically: If your King sends you back you are welcomed. And William: > "My lord, I know not the will of my masters; but I have their permission to go wherever I wish, where it is needful to preach the word of God; and it seems to me that it is very needful in these parts; so whether he sends back envoys by us or not, if it pleases you I will come back." > The Khan remained silent and sat for a long time as if thinking, and the interpreter told me to speak no more. So I waited anxiously for what he would reply. Finally he said: "You have along way to go, comfort yourself with food, so that you may reach your country in good health." And he had me given to drink, and then I went out from before him, and after that I went not back again. If I had had the power to work by signs and wonders like Moses, perhaps he would have humbled himself.
- trhway 4y ago
  >He finally manages to organize at the Khan's Court a religious debate contest with pagans, muslims and nestorians. Pax Mongolica was religion tolerant. While 200 years later for example a Russian trader (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afanasy_Nikitin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afanasy_Nikitin) made a travel through Persia to India, and while it is downplayed in his story in Russia, he had to convert to Islam to survive the travel. Map - https://i2.wp.com/mir-znaniy.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Marshrut-puteshestviya-Afanasiya-syina-Nikitina.png https://i2.wp.com/mir-znaniy.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/...
amelius 4y ago
Was language not a barrier?
- boomboomsubban 4y ago
  There were interpreters. Marco Polo said he primarily relied on a Persian interpreter, and William's travel log mentions Persian being surprisingly wide spread.
ggm 4y ago
Later, but similar engagements between peoples of west asia and europe form a sub-text of the Dorothy Dunnett "Niccolo" series. There is a rumbunctious, obnoxious monk figure who drives the eponymous hero to take the burden and be that ambassador to the white hoarde, to preserve christianity in the east.
ur-whale 4y ago
https://www.loc.gov/item/01019024/ https://www.loc.gov/item/01019024/ also http://www.public-library.uk/dailyebook/The%20journey%20of%20William%20of%20Rubruck%20to%20the%20eastern%20parts%20of%20the%20world%201253-55%20(1900).pdf http://www.public-library.uk/dailyebook/The%20journey%20of%2...

75 points by benbreen 4y ago

I wonder how much these travels affected European conceptions of the Mongols? They obviously figured they were important if emissaries were being sent.

Bayart 4y ago
At the time the Mongols were in Iran. It's just before the sack of Bagdad. Meanwhile the West was in the Eastern Mediterranean with the Latin states. It's not that far away and they were obviously aware of the Mongols.
boomboomsubban 4y ago
Europeans were desperate for an ally against the Muslims so they could retake Jerusalem. These travels led to the "Prestor John" rumors of a far East Christian kingdom who would potentially aid their conquests. Nothing came of it, though the Mongols attacking the region and the Byzantine decision to largely pay them off probably kept the Eastern Roman Empire alive for a few extra centuries.

Someone 4y ago

FTA: “William and his travelling companions set off on horseback on 16 September 1253 on a 9,000-kilometre (5,600 mi) journey to the court of the Great Khan at Karakorum. Arriving in late December…” That’s 9,000 km in about 100 days. Am I right in thinking that’s a quite an accomplishment? The Pony Express did about 300 km/day, but switched horses every 15-25 km.

pavel_lishin 4y ago
That's wild. I did a little bit of research on how fast a large group of people can travel more or less on foot, maybe with wagons, and the number I got was about 20 miles a day. 56 miles a day is nearly three times that!
- trhway 4y ago
  I think that one of the reason for the huge Mongol Empire creation as well as fast partitioning was the short climate period when majority of those territories provided best conditions for horse travel - i.e. not total desert, not swamp/forest, and instead it were plains with climate being just right for the good grass and reasonable rivers.
fishtockos 4y ago
From the lower Volga to Karakorum is actually about 5600 km, not 5600 miles. (edit) Still pretty impressive, though, especially in winter

ralfd 4y ago

https://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/rubruck.html https://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/rubruck.html I recommend reading his travel report on Gutenberg, I found it fascinating, honest and … unintentionally funny. William is not only a monk, he is nerding out about catholic theology. But like a true nerd he doesn't seem to notice when enough is enough and he gets on other peoples nerves. I guess he envisioned himself as the intellectual hero who through socratic dialogues can proof logically that the holy Trinity is the coolest jazz ever, but instead his counterparts are getting exasperated and tell him to please go away. Once he finds a buddhist temple and tries to start a good debate with the bald shaved monks in saffran but they just ignore him. On another occasion his interpreter tires out and makes him stop talking. He finally manages to organize at the Khan's Court a religious debate contest with pagans, muslims and nestorians. But he is disappointed that no one contradicts his learned scholastic arguments and they politely praise his religion, before everyone sings loudly and gets drunk. He finally has an audience with the great Khan himself. And the Khan says in the nicest way a great terrible Warlord could: Please go away. Here is a letter to your King of France which you should deliver far far away. And William agrees, but asks: Of course I will do that, but what if I come back? And Batu Khan, ruler and founder of the Golden Horde, grandson of Genghis Khan promises/threatens diplomatically: If your King sends you back you are welcomed. And William: > "My lord, I know not the will of my masters; but I have their permission to go wherever I wish, where it is needful to preach the word of God; and it seems to me that it is very needful in these parts; so whether he sends back envoys by us or not, if it pleases you I will come back." > The Khan remained silent and sat for a long time as if thinking, and the interpreter told me to speak no more. So I waited anxiously for what he would reply. Finally he said: "You have along way to go, comfort yourself with food, so that you may reach your country in good health." And he had me given to drink, and then I went out from before him, and after that I went not back again. If I had had the power to work by signs and wonders like Moses, perhaps he would have humbled himself.

trhway 4y ago
>He finally manages to organize at the Khan's Court a religious debate contest with pagans, muslims and nestorians. Pax Mongolica was religion tolerant. While 200 years later for example a Russian trader (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afanasy_Nikitin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afanasy_Nikitin) made a travel through Persia to India, and while it is downplayed in his story in Russia, he had to convert to Islam to survive the travel. Map - https://i2.wp.com/mir-znaniy.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Marshrut-puteshestviya-Afanasiya-syina-Nikitina.png https://i2.wp.com/mir-znaniy.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/...

amelius 4y ago

Was language not a barrier?

boomboomsubban 4y ago
There were interpreters. Marco Polo said he primarily relied on a Persian interpreter, and William's travel log mentions Persian being surprisingly wide spread.

ggm 4y ago

Later, but similar engagements between peoples of west asia and europe form a sub-text of the Dorothy Dunnett "Niccolo" series. There is a rumbunctious, obnoxious monk figure who drives the eponymous hero to take the burden and be that ambassador to the white hoarde, to preserve christianity in the east.

ur-whale 4y ago

https://www.loc.gov/item/01019024/ https://www.loc.gov/item/01019024/ also http://www.public-library.uk/dailyebook/The%20journey%20of%20William%20of%20Rubruck%20to%20the%20eastern%20parts%20of%20the%20world%201253-55%20(1900).pdf http://www.public-library.uk/dailyebook/The%20journey%20of%2...