13 ms·

seeing as some people have already added some comments criticizing the code of conduct, I thought I'd add what I think is the most important parts of that code

by molyss 4y ago

seeing as some people have already added some comments criticizing the code of conduct, I thought I'd add what I think is the most important parts of that code of Ethics : > No one is required to follow The Rule [...] or even think that [it] is a good idea. [...] anyone is free to dispute or ignore that idea [...] > This is a one-way promise [...]. the developers are saying "we will treat you this way regardless of how you treat us" No one is forcing their beliefs onto anyone. keep the pitchforks in the shed.

formerly_proven 4y ago
> No one is forcing their beliefs onto anyone. keep the pitchforks in the shed. I don't want a solution, I want to be mad.
- celticninja 4y ago
  Reddit is that way ->
jimbob45 4y ago
Except for all the current developers which makes it seem like Christianity is a prerequisite for getting hired or contributing. I get frustrated at the SJW CoCs but this is arguably just as bad or worse.
- jhgb 4y ago
  > makes it seem like Christianity is a prerequisite for getting hired or contributing ...how could one possibly get this impression, when it literally says "No one is required to follow The Rule"?
  - ev1 4y ago
    Don't forget 'was created for the purpose of filling in a box on "supplier registration" forms [.....] This document continues to be used for its original purpose - providing a reference to fill in the "code of conduct" box on supplier registration forms.'
  - Epa095 4y ago
    This part: >The founder of SQLite and all current developers have pledged to follow the spirit of The Rule to the best of their ability. [...] In other words, the developers are saying: "We will treat you this way regardless of how you treat us." I would definitely not be able to honestly commit to such a pledge. Do you think they will add a "(except epa095)" if I get hired? Or maybe I just won't get hired. IDK, but just like OP I read it as a requirement for contributing.
    - jhgb 4y ago
      Why not? If you're, for example, irreligious, then the best of your ability obviously doesn't include religious observations (and in fact, one could even make a solid argument that "interactions with each other, with their clients, and with the larger SQLite user community" don't touch the religious portions of Benedictine rules even for religious SQLite contributors because the clauses talking about relationship with God or Christ are simply not applicable to these interactions because none of the developers, clients, or larger SQLite user community include God or Christ). For example I'm a 110% atheist and yet I'd have zero problems with this. And again, you seem to be selectively ignoring the "this is not mandatory" part for some reason. If that part is a lie then the whole document is worthless as a guideline. You can't take a document telling you what to do and assume that it's randomly lying to you. If did that, then you'd have to consider your whole expected behavior to be unknowable.
      - isitmadeofglass 4y ago
        > Why not? why does it matter? If a company only hires men would you tell woman that they could just say they identify as men, and therefore there is no problem?
        jhgb 4y ago
        That's a really bad analogy because I'm really not being asked to identify as a Benedictine here. In fact in order for your analogy to be more correct, the exact opposite -- "they could just say they don't identify as men" -- would have to be said.
  - isitmadeofglass 4y ago
    > ...how could one possibly get this impression, when it literally says "No one is required to follow The Rule"? Now hear here miss, while true that the board of directors are all men, and have been so for 5 decades, we reject any notion of sexism as we clearly have here a document which states that “We believe men are superior to women, but we do not require employees to hold this belief…” also it’s voluntary and a compete coincidence that all employees have voluntarily vowed that they agree to this and that all employees are also male. It can’t be sexist since we do not force anyone to agree to do anything. Hope the context shift makes it a bit easier to see why some people might call this suspicious.
    - jhgb 4y ago
      Not quite sure where the document says anything about women. While Benedictines couldn't include women, I strongly doubt that there is any such insinuation here.
- flaviut 4y ago
  SQLite neither accepts external contribution nor do they hire anyone.
  - baobabKoodaa 4y ago
    I guess all the contributions magically appear out of thin air since nobody is allowed to contribute from outside the organization and nobody has ever joined the organization to contribute from the inside either.
  - kwhitefoot 4y ago
    They do not accept contributions unless they are dedicated to the public domain. It's not quite as strict a no contributions at all.
    - astrange 4y ago
      They generally don’t accept patches at all AFAIK. They will look at yours and rewrite it themselves.
- ksherlock 4y ago
  Every time you come home and the SQLite developers aren't having sex with your wife, you should appreciate their code of Ethics. What other software makes that promise? Heck, Oracle probably probably upcharges, $500,000 or more for a 6-9s no adultery support plan (and that still gives them 52 minutes a year to commit adultery with your wife!)
smoe 4y ago
> The founder of SQLite and all current developers have pledged to follow the spirit of The Rule to the best of their ability. Sure, as far as I'm aware code of conducts/ethics only ever apply to contributors, no-one has beliefs being forced upon them. But that seems to be about the highest bar of entry for an interested developer I have seen in any project. Not waving pitchforks here, I'm fine with them having this code of ethics, even tough I disagree with about half the points and find being asked to do such a pledge way to intrusive into personal life.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- ripley12 4y ago
  SQLite generally doesn't accept contributions. "Open-Source, not Open-Contribution" https://www.sqlite.org/copyright.html https://www.sqlite.org/copyright.html
  - smoe 4y ago
    Even when not accepting outside contributions, to fulfill their long term support commitment through 2050, they might have to make changes to their current core team.
    - threatofrain 4y ago
      If they do, then they will have to find people who embrace Christian spiritualism. That's going to be a lot easier than finding Lisp devs. Similarly, Christian institutions seek Christian employees and they fire those who cannot abide. Can't a software project be like a Christian church?
      - worthless-trash 4y ago
        > That's going to be a lot easier than finding Lisp devs. I'm attacked ! out with your intolerance :P
      - 4y ago
thaneross 4y ago
I can't help but notice the contrast with the popular, Contributor Covenant Code of Conduct, which makes it abundantly clear its aim to enforce a set of beliefs on its contributors, with no boundaries between professional and personal life.
- logifail 4y ago
  > a set of beliefs The elephant in the room in many current attempts to encourage "diversity" is that a genuinely diverse range of opinions and/or beliefs ends up being not welcome at all.
  - fooey 4y ago
    Paradox of Tolerance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance > The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.
    - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
      We need a new secular code-society, where we separate code from personal beliefs, and assign "societal points" only by merit. The problem with tolerance and intolerance is, that a few people (a loud minority) think they're the universal good guys, even in cases where their "good thing" is incompatible with itself.
    - FeepingCreature 4y ago
      Sounds like a license to be intolerant, if only you can convince people that your opponents were intolerant first.
      - tehjoker 4y ago
        Welcome to the messy uncodifiable reality of ethics and politics. You can pick a practical code with an exploit or you can pick one that lets you be cut down by anyone that doesn't go along with it.
comment500 4y ago
Agreed, as an atheist it all sounds fine to me. I can respect their code of ethics without feeling the need to adopt it myself. I'm grateful to the author of SQLite for releasing this excellent piece of software into the public domain and continuing to maintain it for the benefit of all. If providing this good work to the world was driven by his Christian principles, then really, who are any of us to criticise. Indeed, we should all be thankful.
phpisthebest 4y ago
That is the thing, Modern code of conduct policies are about governing the behavior of others, not a statement of how one will conduct themselves. It is an important distinction many people over look

by molyss 4y ago

formerly_proven 4y ago

> No one is forcing their beliefs onto anyone. keep the pitchforks in the shed. I don't want a solution, I want to be mad.

celticninja 4y ago
Reddit is that way ->

jimbob45 4y ago

Except for all the current developers which makes it seem like Christianity is a prerequisite for getting hired or contributing. I get frustrated at the SJW CoCs but this is arguably just as bad or worse.

jhgb 4y ago
> makes it seem like Christianity is a prerequisite for getting hired or contributing ...how could one possibly get this impression, when it literally says "No one is required to follow The Rule"?
- ev1 4y ago
  Don't forget 'was created for the purpose of filling in a box on "supplier registration" forms [.....] This document continues to be used for its original purpose - providing a reference to fill in the "code of conduct" box on supplier registration forms.'
- Epa095 4y ago
  This part: >The founder of SQLite and all current developers have pledged to follow the spirit of The Rule to the best of their ability. [...] In other words, the developers are saying: "We will treat you this way regardless of how you treat us." I would definitely not be able to honestly commit to such a pledge. Do you think they will add a "(except epa095)" if I get hired? Or maybe I just won't get hired. IDK, but just like OP I read it as a requirement for contributing.
  - jhgb 4y ago
    Why not? If you're, for example, irreligious, then the best of your ability obviously doesn't include religious observations (and in fact, one could even make a solid argument that "interactions with each other, with their clients, and with the larger SQLite user community" don't touch the religious portions of Benedictine rules even for religious SQLite contributors because the clauses talking about relationship with God or Christ are simply not applicable to these interactions because none of the developers, clients, or larger SQLite user community include God or Christ). For example I'm a 110% atheist and yet I'd have zero problems with this. And again, you seem to be selectively ignoring the "this is not mandatory" part for some reason. If that part is a lie then the whole document is worthless as a guideline. You can't take a document telling you what to do and assume that it's randomly lying to you. If did that, then you'd have to consider your whole expected behavior to be unknowable.
    - isitmadeofglass 4y ago
      > Why not? why does it matter? If a company only hires men would you tell woman that they could just say they identify as men, and therefore there is no problem?
      - jhgb 4y ago
        That's a really bad analogy because I'm really not being asked to identify as a Benedictine here. In fact in order for your analogy to be more correct, the exact opposite -- "they could just say they don't identify as men" -- would have to be said.
- isitmadeofglass 4y ago
  > ...how could one possibly get this impression, when it literally says "No one is required to follow The Rule"? Now hear here miss, while true that the board of directors are all men, and have been so for 5 decades, we reject any notion of sexism as we clearly have here a document which states that “We believe men are superior to women, but we do not require employees to hold this belief…” also it’s voluntary and a compete coincidence that all employees have voluntarily vowed that they agree to this and that all employees are also male. It can’t be sexist since we do not force anyone to agree to do anything. Hope the context shift makes it a bit easier to see why some people might call this suspicious.
  - jhgb 4y ago
    Not quite sure where the document says anything about women. While Benedictines couldn't include women, I strongly doubt that there is any such insinuation here.
flaviut 4y ago
SQLite neither accepts external contribution nor do they hire anyone.
- baobabKoodaa 4y ago
  I guess all the contributions magically appear out of thin air since nobody is allowed to contribute from outside the organization and nobody has ever joined the organization to contribute from the inside either.
- kwhitefoot 4y ago
  They do not accept contributions unless they are dedicated to the public domain. It's not quite as strict a no contributions at all.
  - astrange 4y ago
    They generally don’t accept patches at all AFAIK. They will look at yours and rewrite it themselves.
ksherlock 4y ago
Every time you come home and the SQLite developers aren't having sex with your wife, you should appreciate their code of Ethics. What other software makes that promise? Heck, Oracle probably probably upcharges, $500,000 or more for a 6-9s no adultery support plan (and that still gives them 52 minutes a year to commit adultery with your wife!)

smoe 4y ago

> The founder of SQLite and all current developers have pledged to follow the spirit of The Rule to the best of their ability. Sure, as far as I'm aware code of conducts/ethics only ever apply to contributors, no-one has beliefs being forced upon them. But that seems to be about the highest bar of entry for an interested developer I have seen in any project. Not waving pitchforks here, I'm fine with them having this code of ethics, even tough I disagree with about half the points and find being asked to do such a pledge way to intrusive into personal life.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ripley12 4y ago
SQLite generally doesn't accept contributions. "Open-Source, not Open-Contribution" https://www.sqlite.org/copyright.html https://www.sqlite.org/copyright.html
- smoe 4y ago
  Even when not accepting outside contributions, to fulfill their long term support commitment through 2050, they might have to make changes to their current core team.
  - threatofrain 4y ago
    If they do, then they will have to find people who embrace Christian spiritualism. That's going to be a lot easier than finding Lisp devs. Similarly, Christian institutions seek Christian employees and they fire those who cannot abide. Can't a software project be like a Christian church?
    - worthless-trash 4y ago
      > That's going to be a lot easier than finding Lisp devs. I'm attacked ! out with your intolerance :P
    - 4y ago

thaneross 4y ago

I can't help but notice the contrast with the popular, Contributor Covenant Code of Conduct, which makes it abundantly clear its aim to enforce a set of beliefs on its contributors, with no boundaries between professional and personal life.

logifail 4y ago
> a set of beliefs The elephant in the room in many current attempts to encourage "diversity" is that a genuinely diverse range of opinions and/or beliefs ends up being not welcome at all.
- fooey 4y ago
  Paradox of Tolerance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance > The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    We need a new secular code-society, where we separate code from personal beliefs, and assign "societal points" only by merit. The problem with tolerance and intolerance is, that a few people (a loud minority) think they're the universal good guys, even in cases where their "good thing" is incompatible with itself.
  - FeepingCreature 4y ago
    Sounds like a license to be intolerant, if only you can convince people that your opponents were intolerant first.
    - tehjoker 4y ago
      Welcome to the messy uncodifiable reality of ethics and politics. You can pick a practical code with an exploit or you can pick one that lets you be cut down by anyone that doesn't go along with it.

comment500 4y ago

Agreed, as an atheist it all sounds fine to me. I can respect their code of ethics without feeling the need to adopt it myself. I'm grateful to the author of SQLite for releasing this excellent piece of software into the public domain and continuing to maintain it for the benefit of all. If providing this good work to the world was driven by his Christian principles, then really, who are any of us to criticise. Indeed, we should all be thankful.

phpisthebest 4y ago

That is the thing, Modern code of conduct policies are about governing the behavior of others, not a statement of how one will conduct themselves. It is an important distinction many people over look