23 ms·

The SQLite Code of Ethics

306 points by zaksingh 4y ago

jmull 4y ago
> 54. Speak no useless words or words that move to laughter. > 55. Do not love much or boisterous laughter. I’m out. ROLLBACK TRANSACTION;
- mikece 4y ago
  Ironically, the goal isn't to be humorless but to not inordinately seek or be attached to humor or fellowship. If you were truly humorless you would likely run afoul of #39. It's truly about interior and exterior balance.
eimrine 4y ago
That much concerning on the person of religion creates nothing except war. It is like when you are claiming in license that your sw can't be used for evil and get surprised that your sw is not compatible with free licenses.
hombre_fatal 4y ago
Seems pretty self-important/pretentious. It's just a database, guys.
- ben_jones 4y ago
  You didn't know SQLite cures cancer?
- jccooper 4y ago
  "This document continues to be used for its original purpose - providing a reference to fill in the "code of conduct" box on supplier registration forms."
  - thrown_22 4y ago
    I remember the code of conduct push overnight on all open source projects. It was such a bizarre time. What's worse is that pretty much everyone folded.
    - paulryanrogers 4y ago
      What would you consider the best response to the desire for clear boundaries and expectations from project communities?
      - vinyl7 4y ago
        "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me"
      - teakettle42 4y ago
        The best response? “No”. The code of conduct push was a transparent game of social aggression — an attempt to shift open source power dynamics in favor of: (1) Allowing social activists, who could not acquire institutional power on the basis of their own technical merit, to co-opt open source institutions for their own aims and to extract resources. See also the contributor covenant, DEI consultants, et al. (2) Securing the necessary power structures to enforce the beliefs of their particular vein of progressive political activism. In my experience being very involved with a few large projects that were pressured into adopting a code of conduct, the historically most toxic and socially aggressive personalities in the project became the biggest proponents of adopting a code of conduct, engaging in bad faith and with extreme social aggression to tear down any detractors, hiding behind their newfound righteousness as a defense.
        paulryanrogers 4y ago
        So a few bad apples has ruined the whole idea in your mind? Are you also satisfied with the diversity within the project communities that you contribute to?
        4y ago
ThalesX 4y ago
Hmm, is this some sort of Meta I’m missing? It feels strange to mix so many cultural ‘suggestions’ with a database product. > Listen willingly to holy reading. > Devote yourself frequently to prayer. > Daily in your prayers, with tears and sighs, confess your past sins to God, and amend them for the future. Anyway, sqlite is a good product and I don’t even mind all that much to have a code of Ethics associated to it, just not a thing you see often.
- ticviking 4y ago
  The point is that the other codes of conduct often embed other particular cultural suggestions and assumptions, but since they are those of your own you don't notice them as jarringly as those of medieval Christendom.
  - ThalesX 4y ago
    > but since they are those of your own you don't notice them as jarringly Why would you assume this about me and not take at face value that I really believe you don't find these often in the wild. It's just my personal experience that I haven't seen these out in the wild all that much (I can't think of an example), and it was surprising to me.
    - CRConrad 4y ago
      > It's just my personal experience that I haven't seen these out in the wild all that much What, OSS project codes of conduct?!? Weird; how the heck does one miss that whole phenomenon? There has been lots of controversy around (some of) them in much of online media about computing over the last few years, including huge threads of heated discussion here on HN.
  - astrange 4y ago
    I don’t think that is the point. I do think everyone takes it as the point though.
- SubjectToChange 4y ago
Jamie9912 4y ago
i'm getting Terry Davis vibes
- juice_bus 4y ago
  RIP
- akatechis 4y ago
  The glow in the darks got him... :(
- rschachte 4y ago
  Damn. RIP Terry, true legend
- maccolgan 4y ago
  RIP
pdenton 4y ago
Why is it a list and not a table? Seems like a pretty simple case of CREATE TABLE ethics ( id INT PRIMARY KEY, rule TEXT );
- why-el 4y ago
  What happens during downtime for maintenance?
  - hrgiger 4y ago
    Its mean you failed to spread the love horizontally
  - kingofpandora 4y ago
    You say 10 hail Marys and 5 our Fathers.
- andreareina 4y ago
  For all we know it is stored in a table
youngNed 4y ago
It takes a special kind of arrogance to believe that you can rewrite the 10 commandments. But to rewrite them, see them there on the screen and not realise you have done it, in a much more inefficient way, and also much, much worse. Thats just a breakdown.
- jccooper 4y ago
  Tell it St Benedict. He's the one who wrote it.
  - youngNed 4y ago
    I fully intend to. I have a few arguments to have with a few others before i get to him though, he's far from the worst.
molyss 4y ago
seeing as some people have already added some comments criticizing the code of conduct, I thought I'd add what I think is the most important parts of that code of Ethics : > No one is required to follow The Rule [...] or even think that [it] is a good idea. [...] anyone is free to dispute or ignore that idea [...] > This is a one-way promise [...]. the developers are saying "we will treat you this way regardless of how you treat us" No one is forcing their beliefs onto anyone. keep the pitchforks in the shed.
- formerly_proven 4y ago
  > No one is forcing their beliefs onto anyone. keep the pitchforks in the shed. I don't want a solution, I want to be mad.
  - celticninja 4y ago
    Reddit is that way ->
- jimbob45 4y ago
  Except for all the current developers which makes it seem like Christianity is a prerequisite for getting hired or contributing. I get frustrated at the SJW CoCs but this is arguably just as bad or worse.
  - jhgb 4y ago
    > makes it seem like Christianity is a prerequisite for getting hired or contributing ...how could one possibly get this impression, when it literally says "No one is required to follow The Rule"?
    - ev1 4y ago
      Don't forget 'was created for the purpose of filling in a box on "supplier registration" forms [.....] This document continues to be used for its original purpose - providing a reference to fill in the "code of conduct" box on supplier registration forms.'
frankjr 4y ago
[flagged]
- kennywinker 4y ago
  Meh. I'm deeply atheist, but if I s/god/luck, s/christ/this-philosophy and s/prayer/contemplative-thought it doesn't seem to me there's much in there that's objectionable... except maybe 11, 44, 45, 57, and 63. Less than 7% drivel by my generous accounting.
- thesuperbigfrog 4y ago
  >> Pretty disappointing. I would have expected better than this religious drivel. If it's a joke, then you got me. You can respect a person and their views on how they treat others without disparaging them. It states: "No one is required to follow The Rule, to know The Rule, or even to think that The Rule is a good idea. The Founder of SQLite believes that anyone who follows The Rule will live a happier and more productive life, but individuals are free to dispute or ignore that advice if they wish." Common descency and respect towards others does not ask you to believe as they do, but to let them speak and be heard.
ciupicri 4y ago
It's breeze of fresh air compared to most code of conducts which sound like communist propaganda. This and the Linux code of conflict.
- kennywinker 4y ago
  I'm not sure what you think communism is, but: 2. Then, love your neighbor as yourself. 5. Do not steal. 6. Do not covet. 14. Relieve the poor. 15. Clothe the naked. 18. Be a help in times of trouble. 38. Be not lazy. Those are all pretty deeply in line with marxism. Jesus was a communist, after all.
  - homieg33 4y ago
    Free will
    - kennywinker 4y ago
      42. Attribute to God, and not to self, whatever good you see in yourself. 59. Fulfill not the desires of the flesh; hate your own will. 60. Obey in all things the commands of those whom God has placed in authority over you even though they (which God forbid) should act otherwise, mindful of the Lord's precept, "Do what they say, but not what they do." I'm not seeing a lot of room for free will in this document.
      - michaelsbradley 4y ago
        Human freedom is the freedom to do good, not license to do whatever you want to do or can do.
        kennywinker 4y ago
        Freedom to do good? That's already been covered: 42. Attribute to God, and not to self, whatever good you see in yourself. That's not your freedom or your will, that's god's doing. Or so this document says. So by your definition, there is no free will in this document.
petilon 4y ago
So... what is SQLite's stance on abortion? [Edit] Found it: it's supported: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3912417/is-there-a-way-to-abort-an-sqlite-call https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3912417/is-there-a-way-t...
- racl101 4y ago
  SQLite: "When my mother was abducted by the Communists, she was with child.... but the Communists, they put an end to that! So, on this issue there is no debate! And no intelligent person can think differently."
  - hobo_mark 4y ago
    According to the Search Engine, that's a quote from Seinfeld, nothing to do with SQLite. https://www.seinfeldscripts.com/TheCouch.html https://www.seinfeldscripts.com/TheCouch.html
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- nodesocket 4y ago
  His stance is his own and frankly private. If he chooses to open up about it publicly fine, but sitting on a soap box online demanding political and private questions wreaks of moral and intellectual false superiority.
  - petilon 4y ago
    But it is in line with the 72 rules listed. If you're a developer who wants to contribute to SQLite, you might want to know beforehand if you will be expected to sign on to a 73rd rule.
    - csande17 4y ago
      One benefit of adopting a 1,500-year-old code of ethics is that it's probably not going to suddenly change on you.
adamgordonbell 4y ago
Before I got to talk with Richard, I found many things online about his Christian values and public domain license and how odd it was. And I thought this was THE fascinating thing about Richard that led to the database and other things. But then I talked to him. He's a great engineer but a regular guy running a business around a thing he built. He gets to be a bit whimsical because he can. He can use his own source control and license, and he can certainly make up a code of ethics, to check a check box on some form somewhere. The cool thing about SQLite is that he built this thing and gets to do things his way. This is just a specific instance of that. Shameless plug: https://corecursive.com/066-sqlite-with-richard-hipp/ https://corecursive.com/066-sqlite-with-richard-hipp/
- dash2 4y ago
  That's a great interview - so interesting not just on Richard but also on the early history of Android and mobile phone development. He seems like the best kind of libertarian, not just "oh give me lower taxes" but "I want to be free and I'm gonna pay the price to do that".
- alexpetros 4y ago
  I started listening to your podcast a month ago because I was curious about SQLite and came across the transcript. This episode is excellent, as is the podcast backlog overall. I highly recommend it to my friends.
- CoastalCoder 4y ago
  Hey Adam, I just started listening to your podcast and I just finished that episode. You did a great job, and it was really informative. Thanks for making it!
- amerine 4y ago
  This episode inspired me to join your patreon. Thanks for the great podcast.
- earth_walker 4y ago
  Just want to say that I loved this interview, it was the first I had heard of your show and I've been a regular listener since. Thank you!
quinnjh 4y ago
At a time of decaying social bonds, cultural fragmentation, and no consensus reality, i would much rather work somewhere with an explicit code like this than the countless "we are good people" places that will never define what "being good people" is until they are on the opposite side of a courtroom. Having shared values is very important for a team.
- keybored 4y ago
  What’s your current religion?
- duxup 4y ago
  I like the idea of such a code. But at the same time I see religions with that or similar codes and the folks following it seem just as interested in ignoring it or twisting it as a way to push on those not in their religion. Now I don’t think that’s the sql lite folks and plenty of folks don’t do that thing… but just a splash of religion doesn’t make me feel much better about anything.
  - mikece 4y ago
    The code is an ideal to achieve. Some of the items are easy (#3: Do not commit murder) while others are a life-long struggle (#32: Do not curse those who curse you, but rather bless them) requiring a daily renewal of purpose. And like any worthwhile daily rule of life it should be something which requires continual effort, something which can never be truly accomplished (which keep complacency at bay).
deleted 4y ago
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tomohawk 4y ago
- paulryanrogers 4y ago
ripley12 4y ago
I'm not religious but I've always liked this; it's fun to think of the SQLite developers as a small monastery. If monasteries can produce beer for the world (see: the Trappists), why not software?
- wyager 4y ago
  If software engineering was available as a monastic vocation, we'd probably have a lot of significantly higher-quality software available. I would much rather use something written by a stylite with an esolang compiler than shat out by 100 poorly-coordinated javascript devs at MEGACORP.
  - defenestration 4y ago
    There is a truth hidden in here. I would love to spend time at a monastry and code.
    - nemo1618 4y ago
      You can! I spent a week co-working at MAPLE (https://www.monasticacademy.com https://www.monasticacademy.com) earlier this month, living among monastics and participating in their practice. Honestly, I didn't get a lot of programming done, but that's probably because my goal shifted rather quickly from "get a lot of work done" to "take advantage of this rare opportunity to develop my meditation practice." Still, I think it'd be a great environment for focused programming: you're in a quiet, beautiful setting, your meals are taken care of, and you're surrounded by people who are diligent, respectful, and committed to solving important problems.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - bardan 4y ago
      Coding in the scriptorium, no less.
  - 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
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gorgoiler 4y ago
Lots of Christian theology can get bogged down in the Trinity, what the Holy Ghost part means, etc. There are also much more basic sects where the theology of the Gospel is considerably easier to preach, and where in particular the idea of God simply being other people, and our love for each other is prevalent. It is surprising to see this kind of Christianity here, in a piece of software. Surprising and uplifting. It is all quite an Anglican perspective. I feel sorry for people who don’t have better access to Anglican Communion / Episcopalianism. The more deeply theological sects don’t hold a candle to it.
- kwhitefoot 4y ago
  I forget who said it but I vaguely remember hearing an Anglican clergyman quoted as saying something like "Anglicans don't do theology" with the implication that Anglicanism is for people not gods. In fact the few priests, both Anglican and Roman, who I have encountered have all been practical people more concerned with people and their mundane problems than religion or theology.
iasay 4y ago
This scares me slightly. When I see a code of ethics bound to faith, I have to wonder what happens if the faith disappears. Experience says lots of people get hurt. I don't wish that on anyone. Ethical stance must stand alone unconditionally. As for the actual rules, picking one in particular, respecting someone purely for being senior is stupid. Respect is simply earned. I respect more people younger and in more junior positions than myself.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- yodon 4y ago
  >When I see a code of ethics bound to faith, I have to wonder what happens if the faith disappears. Let's do the math: Christianity has been around for around two orders of magnitude longer than any of the compilers or dev tools you're using on your project. There are probably three orders of magnitude more people who use Christianity than are using any of the languages used in your project. There are probably six orders of magnitude more priests and churches than there are maintainers on all but the top 1% of libraries (open source or closed source) you're using on your project. I'm pretty sure the complete disappearance of Christianity from the face of the earth is not the highest probability risk to worry about for your project, and if it were to completely disappear there would probably be enough other stuff going along with that disappearance that we probably all have bigger things on our mind than the code of ethics published by a software team. If the concern is just "what if the maintainers give up on Christianity," they're probably far more likely to get tired of programming (that happens far more often), but we can observe that their need to make a PR to edit their own code of conduct is not really going to be a particularly hard thing for them to pull off.
  - iasay 4y ago
    I think you entirely managed to miss the point there. People don't tell you they lost their faith. They just stop following their code of ethics that was bound to it. I trust a faceless corporation over this attitude.
adamrezich 4y ago
previously: "SQLite: Code of Ethics" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26547201 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26547201 (March 22, 2021 — 37 points, 23 comments) "SQLite updated Code of Conduct" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18313131 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18313131 (October 26, 2018 — 41 points, 89 comments) "SQLite: Code of Ethics" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18297514 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18297514 (October 24, 2018 — 34 points, 19 comments) "SQLite: Code of Conduct" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273530 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273530 (October 22, 2018 — 338 points, 288 comments [flagged]) "SQLite: Code of Conduct" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273390 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273390 (October 22, 2018 — 157 points, 60 comments)
- bowsamic 4y ago
  Wow, we often complain that HN has degraded, but the comments on that bottom link are very low quality
no_butterscotch 4y ago
The fact that repositories even have "codes of conduct" is Orwellian on one hand and a sign of idiocracy on the other.
- kragen 4y ago
  Yeah, my commentary on this nonsense is at https://gitlab.com/kragen/bubbleos/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md https://gitlab.com/kragen/bubbleos/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDU.... > Could J. K. Rowling require Harry Potter readers to follow a code of conduct? Could Werner Heisenberg demand that you subscribe to a code of conduct if you want to do quantum physics? ... > Codes of conduct typically make laudable promises such as “We pledge to respect all people,” in an attempt to convince readers that they [the authors] will behave laudably. In my experience, though, people who put a lot of effort into telling you how laudably they will behave do not behave any any more laudably than other people do — slightly the contrary, in fact. ... > ... I expect that I’ll be delighted if you send me patches and bug reports, but on that count I make no promises. Feel free to send them repeatedly through different channels if you don’t get a response at first, since I often don’t notice things. If you like how I respond when you send me patches or bug reports, then maybe it would be a good idea to do more of it. If you don’t like it, then maybe you would be happier if you stopped. I’ll do my best to be polite, but I screw that up pretty often, to be honest. ... > But, as I said before, what humans tell you they will do is not a very reliable predictor of what they will do. If you want to know what to expect of them, look at their past behavior. Don’t just look at their self-reports of their past behavior, although admissions against interest there can be quite revealing; look at traces it has left that they cannot delete, such as your own memory, mailing list archives, past Gitlab issues, and other people talking about them.
  - kennywinker 4y ago
    > Could J. K. Rowling require Harry Potter readers to follow a code of conduct? Nobody attempts to apply codes of conduct to users of software - that's the domain of the license agreement. They only apply to communities. Virtually every online community around harry potter has some set of rules for participating in that community. e.g. https://stories.jkrowling.com/terms-of-use/ https://stories.jkrowling.com/terms-of-use/ > Could Werner Heisenberg demand that you subscribe to a code of conduct if you want to do quantum physics? Heisenberg was the post-ww2 president of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Physics (quickly renamed the Max Planck Institute post war) - which was involved in human "medical" experimentation in nazi concentration camps. During his governence: "after 1945 neither active participants in the Third Reich nor hangers-on were called to account" - https://www.mpg.de/history/kws-under-national-socialism https://www.mpg.de/history/kws-under-national-socialism So a guy who presided over an organization that didn't bother to clean house after being directly involved in the fucking holocaust isn't exactly my go-to for how to run a healthy community.
jl6 4y ago
> Be in dread of hell. This one’s in the Oracle Master Agreement too.
sremani 4y ago
SQLite is anti-fragile.
keybored 4y ago
Super weird to make a COC about your Christian values but I respect the check-the-form hustle.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- byecomputer 4y ago
  I think it's funny. "Need a code of conduct? Here, this one's a classic"
newintellectual 4y ago
swarnie 4y ago
I failed at step 1 > No one is required to follow The Rule, to know The Rule, or even to think that The Rule is a good idea. Oh thank god for that...
amachefe 4y ago
Another one? Looks like we get this every quarter.. Anyway, if you dont like it, fork it... or use another Db.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
gadders 4y ago
I don't hate it.
isitmadeofglass 4y ago
There are some questionable ones in between there. > Obey in all things the commands of those whom God has placed in authority over you even though they (which God forbid) should act otherwise, mindful of the Lord's precept, "Do what they say, but not what they do." This would have you willingly submit to sexual assault by a priest. And really should be revised considering the slew of cases against the church, or at least be revised with some sort of exception not just to “not do as they do, do as they say”, but to not obey them when they commit such acts. And yes, I understand that this is in no way forced upon anyone and is just a “I believe” statement, but still I would argue that the suggestion that those who live by these rules live happier lives is countered by every choirboy who submitted and obeyed a person god had place in authority over them, and got assaulted as a result. Plenty of those rules I would agree, though it seems every mention of the institution which is “god” is irrelevant, redundant, harmful or downright sinister. I think it right to cut down the list a slight bit.
- doliveira 4y ago
  Yeah, one of the most problematic views indeed. "Don't touch the Lord's anointed ones" is a mandate commonly used for religious leaders to discourage any sort of criticism of their actions. Beliefs like this do matter. They inform the actions of millions of people across the world.
- contravariant 4y ago
  I'm somewhat worried that there's a lot of 'love thy neighbour as thyself' combined with a lot of self-hatred/denial.
deleted 4y ago
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claytongulick 4y ago
When viewing this through the lens of "God is a proxy symbol for the first order derivative of your society" these rules make a lot of sense. If you re-read this with that interpretation, it's pretty amazing stuff.
gigatexal 4y ago
What if a dev wanted to work on the project and was a devout devil worshiper or an atheist wine bibber…
- kwhitefoot 4y ago
  They merely have to provide contributions that live up to the technical standard of SQLite (good luck) and dedicate them to the public domain. Their religion or lack of is not a problem.
rasengan0 4y ago
39. Be not a grumbler. I have failed, but sqlite yields no grumbling
- mikece 4y ago
  There are several points on this list that crudely translate to "don't be an asshole" at which I personally need to improve. #39 is one of them.
My104thaccount 4y ago
This is way more fucked up than any "code of conduct" but treated much less controversially on HN
nabla9 4y ago
Robustness principle: "be conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from others"[1] is a good ethical rule. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robustness_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robustness_principle
- edflsafoiewq 4y ago
  A much better ethical rule than a technical one actually.
mattewong 4y ago
"I don't want to be beholden to Gmail [...] controlling a record of all of my conversations". Replacing Gmail: now THAT sounds interesting
slickdifferent 4y ago
People here try to subvert expectations with their takes so much that it's no surprise that there are so many posts saying there is nothing wrong with this and to not use it if you don't agree. If the post wasn't specifically drawing attention to the unusual code of ethics, people would be dragging it through the mud for the potential to generate bad PR or some other example illustrating why 'successful companies keep their codes plain and boring for a reason'.
utopcell 4y ago
I've used SQLite in the long past (early 2000s) and had fun with it, but I had never seen this. Imposing your religious beliefs through a ..code of "ethics" no less, in exchange for some (arguably small) thing you've done that is completely irrelevant to these beliefs is ludicrous. While I secretly hope that the author is light-spirited in writing this, I will err on the safe side and never use, and actively steer folks away from using, SQLite in the future. Incidentally, the page has some internal consistency issues: ``` Honor all people. ``` has historically not played well with: ``` First of all, love the Lord God with your whole heart, your whole soul, and your whole strength. Deny oneself in order to follow Christ. Prefer nothing more than the love of Christ. Put your hope in God. Attribute to God, and not to self, whatever good you see in yourself. Fear the Day of Judgment. Be in dread of hell. Desire eternal life with all the passion of the spirit. Keep death daily before your eyes. Know for certain that God sees you everywhere. When wrongful thoughts come into your heart, dash them against Christ immediately. Listen willingly to holy reading. Devote yourself frequently to prayer. Daily in your prayers, with tears and sighs, confess your past sins to God, and amend them for the future. Obey in all things the commands of those whom God has placed in authority over you even though they (which God forbid) should act otherwise, mindful of the Lord's precept, "Do what they say, but not what they do." Do not wish to be called holy before one is holy; but first to be holy, that you may be truly so called. Fulfill God's commandments daily in your deeds. Pray for your enemies in the love of Christ. Never despair of God's mercy. ```
- zimpenfish 4y ago
  > in exchange for some (arguably small) thing you've done I dunno that I'd describe the most deployed database in the world "some (arguably small) thing", really?
  - utopcell 4y ago
    Scale is relative: my day-to-day involves working at a planet-scale serving infrastructure that handles trillions of documents. I've always thought of sqlite as "this little library that you drop in for handling small datasets reliably". For the sake of argument though, let it be a library that is deployed everywhere: its usefulness or technical prowess was never in question. There are religious folks whose work I reference or use frequently, but they keep their beliefs to themselves. Don Knuth is a canonical example of this for me. No issues there, anyone should be free to believe whatever gets them through their day. In my (subjective, biased, maybe incorrect,) opinion, people whose code of "ethics" includes phrases like "keep death daily before your eyes, fear the Day of Judgment and be in dread of hell" are dangerous. I doubt they're even aware that hell was voted in existence centuries after their savior was crucified. The amount of life lost and the intellectual stagnation stemming from these religious fanatics, these broken people, is staggering. We'd have reached Alpha Centauri by now were it not for them.
tantaman 4y ago
Anything couched in religious language immediately turns people off even if what is being said perfectly aligns with the reader’s beliefs. Philosophize this has some good discussions about religious vocabulary when discussing Kierkegaard.
nindalf 4y ago
There’s that libertarian streak of “his project, his rules” in this thread. He can include or exclude anyone he wants because it’s his project. Well, I read the very first line and see that he doesn’t want me, or people like me to be a contributor to this project. And that’s fine. His project, so I hear. But personally, I’ve felt welcome to contribute to every other open source project out there. I’ve felt welcome to apply to any job out there. It feels jarring to be excluded like this. I feel hurt. I shouldn’t be made to feel like this, just because of my religious views. And no, please don’t split any hairs like “no, he’s not excluding, he’s actually describing…”. You wouldn’t be supporting him if the first line changed to be based on race instead of religion. Then why are you supporting him now?
- adamrezich 4y ago
  from https://www.sqlite.org/copyright.html https://www.sqlite.org/copyright.html: > SQLite is open-source, meaning that you can make as many copies of it as you want and do whatever you want with those copies, without limitation. But SQLite is not open-contribution. In order to keep SQLite in the public domain and ensure that the code does not become contaminated with proprietary or licensed content, the project does not accept patches from people who have not submitted an affidavit dedicating their contribution into the public domain. what makes you think that every open-source project should "make you feel welcome"? "I shouldn’t be made to feel like this"—where does that idea come from? "shouldn't" on what basis? many open-source projects' Codes of Ethics/Conduct/whatever make me feel explicitly unwelcome, but a.) I don't care, and b.) I don't feel entitled to feel welcome in everyone else's project. what makes you feel differently?
  - nindalf 4y ago
    > many open-source projects' Codes of Ethics/Conduct/whatever make me feel explicitly unwelcome Most open source projects Code of Conduct boil down to "don't be mean to other contributors, treat them well". I'm sorry this makes you feel explicitly unwelcome. That said, it's never been a problem for me to adhere to that. This is a first time for me being excluded, and it feels bad. I'm commenting on why this person has gone out of his way to do that. Exclusion is not the norm in online programming spaces. Nor would we tolerate it if someone started excluding people on the basis of something like race. But seemingly there are apologists for exclusion on the basis of religion.
thunderbong 4y ago
In this world of bits and bytes, a lot of early principles set by the founders get compromised as time goes on. We, as developers, tend to take these as "that's just the way it is", and move on. Sure, some of us, try. Root our phones, host our own emails. But really, isn't being a good human underlying all that goes above it? I'm not a Christian. I'm not even religious. IMHO though, if any software that I've ever written or would write in future, would help others realize that in the big picture, a belief and faith in humanity is the most important thing above all else, I would consider myself privileged.
imwillofficial 4y ago
I love this, doubling down on personal beliefs in face of opposition
quasarj 4y ago
Ahhhh this explains the reason SQLite is so.. disciplined. It's created by a group of monks!
lfkdev 4y ago
These rules sound terrible. What is it with people to put everything they do in God? Just do it because you're a good guy and you want to do it. Not because some galactic justice tolds you to do it. Really a shame.
- ignoramous 4y ago
  > ...and you want to do it That want, for some, takes root in their beliefs and faith. May sound ridiculous but many things do to anyone alien to it.
- astrange 4y ago
  That concept wasn’t invented when the rules were written, and it’s lose the effect if you rewrote them.
verytrivial 4y ago
This sort of thing used to annoy me in my youth. But there is a lot of good stuff in there. These are directions on how YOU should live your life, so strike out as appropriate. SQLite is great and if pondering these rules helped, only a fool would avoid pondering them out of spite.
- tootie 4y ago
  But they could just strike all the ones that mention god and hell and not lost anything of value. I also think the morality only rings true if you were raised in a Christian dominated society. No one living in the real world can afford to love their enemies. That's what people in monasteries can say but not ones who are responsible for protecting people.
  - moreira 4y ago
    > No one living in the real world can afford to love their enemies. I’m reminded of a passage in Great Expectations that helped me understand exactly just what this means: > "so you're the blacksmith, are you? Then I'm sorry to say, I've eat your pie." > "God knows you're welcome to it, so far as it was ever mine," […] "We don't know what you have done, but we wouldn't have you starved to death for it, poor miserable fellow-creatur.” Here’s a guy, an escaped convict, who stole from them, and yet, he’s still being treated decently, and with respect. I might be way off base, but I feel like that’s what it’s about.
    - tootie 4y ago
      Charity and compassion are one thing, but sometimes you need to fight your enemies in the interests of justice. People in need or people who have made mistakes aren't necessarily your enemies. I thinking more like lying down in the face of unchecked aggression. I don't believe there will be justice in any sort of afterlife, so we have to deal with it now or never. I mean, what would St Benedict say about the Trolley Problem?
  - naniwaduni 4y ago
    Well, it would lose the value of being nominally attributable to a 1500yo monastic document. This might not make a difference to you if you don't acknowledge the the provenance (nor, heck, if you think the provenance is shot in translation), but on net it probably matters a lot more that the small number of people agreeing to the document, presumably none of whom are you, do.
victor9000 4y ago
No less ridiculous than other similar documents out there
- CRConrad 4y ago
  OTOH, no more ridiculous than (most?) other similar documents out there.
terrib1e 4y ago
Madness
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alphachloride 4y ago
I am not a prolific contributor in the open source scene, but I participate with some frequency. I've always thought Codes of conduct are simply platitudes to keep over-eager human resources personnel, twitter activists, and their ilk at bay. Never once have I ever felt the need to look over the codes on any service. Such pages are simply background noise that contribute nothing but the occupation of space to a project. This has been my impression thus far. I do not subscribe to all the beliefs the author espouses, but I am sympathetic with them. Admittedly, I feel myself cheering him on for standing his ground against this vacuous criticism.
- drewrv 4y ago
  Not an open source project, but I’ve seen a Code of Conduct save a local user group when drama erupted between a founding organizer and a regular member. Having a written agreement and guidelines to mediate conflicts is vital once a community gets to a certain size. Humans have been doing this since Hammurabi.
Aeolun 4y ago
Honestly, 72 rules, most of which overlap to some extend, do not seem like they would be easy to follow. I do think it’s nice that “respect your parents” has been modified to “respect everyone”.
raggi 4y ago
How do they interpret the self-flagellation rule?
loveJesus 4y ago
barrysteve 4y ago
I don't know why a technology company needs a "code of conduct" or "ethics". The management embodies the ethics they desire to display and enforce. Has the institutional hierarchy lost the ability to govern and persuade their employees? Posting it for PR reasons is too close to virtue signalling. Having a code of conduct and explicitly informing the world that you are Catholic and run the place in a Catholic manner, can be divisive. Not because Catholicism is a Big Bad™ or whatever current scandal, blah blah. Because Catholics have a very distinct management style that excludes free flowing ideas and a two-way relationship with management, and focuses on nailing down perfect form. Sometimes it produces great results, other times not so much. When it doesn't, it can be even more difficult to offer an alternative method, because of a strict CoC. For employees, the rules are sometimes used by management as an unintentional denial of different solutions. People who know how this management style impacts their work life, may avoid the company. The internal environment becomes over-specialized towards one particular way of thinking and enacting technological change. Which is probably fine for SQLite to forever be the same as it was, which is all most people want out of the project anyway. As a general trend though, it's concerning that otherwise solid companies are closing the front door to new ideas and opening the window so the non-CoC thinking can fly away. The relationship everyone wants in the corporate world, is with the most skilled people at the best price. It doesn't necessarily correlate with perfect form or political CoCs.
lifeisstillgood 4y ago
So I am intrigued by the idea of the Axial Age transition - roughly 500BC and worlds big population centres (India China Persia) hit some kind of population tipping point, developed massive abusive slavery and wars and then developed much more restrictive religions as a means to control the larger populations. The argument is tenuous but it reminds me a lot of the Shakespeare / Lope de Vega transition- sometimes population is dense enough to chnage something. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_Age https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_Age
- naniwaduni 4y ago
  It's, in brief, the sort of pseudo-anthropology that's very appealing to systematizing minds, but falls apart immediately when you have to engage with the fact that the cultures in questions did not have remotely similar experiences at that time—it's telling that you seized on "big population centres (India China Persia)" in particular. But you have to squint really hard to make them look similar.
  - lifeisstillgood 4y ago
    I get the "yeah nah dodgy" concerns about it. But humans have gone through several stages of civilisation that can be defined as "the number of people physically near enough me to be a threat" - from tribes that could go years without meeting others to football stadiums full of thousands. Each of the above civilisations went through a population / density transition - and did so within a few hundred years - and came out with some surprisingly similar religious / cultural rules that were a) different to what had gone before b) similar in some respects to each other I am certainly not arguing there was some shared kernel of religion, just that there was a new economic/ social pressure and the "solution" to it was a new form of religion / social contract. In short - as human economics and civilisation changes, so does the way we govern ourselves (religion is a governing force). It seems reasonable to argue that as different civilisations go through the same pinch points they will find similar solutions. We also should assume we are going through such as pinch point today (either the long term industrial revolution or the near term internet revolution). And yes - systemising minds need to be aware of their own proclivities- a hard won lesson
SergeAx 4y ago
Shouldn't we put "(2018)" label on that?
throwaway81523 4y ago
We need one of those for the Church of Emacs. I bless your computer, my child!
scns 4y ago
As good as the intentions behind them are, they work much better by leaving negations out. Do not murder -> Leave other people alive Do not commit adultery -> Be truthful to your partner Do not steal, Do not covet -> Be content with what you have Do not bear false witness -> Speak the truth Do not do to another what you would not have done to yourself -> Treat others like you want to be treated Do not become attached to pleasures -> Practice moderation Do not give way to anger -> Stay calm Do not nurse a grudge, Do not return evil for evil, Do not curse those who curse you, but rather bless them, Do no wrong to anyone, and bear patiently wrongs done to yourself -> Practice forgiveness Be not proud -> Be humble Be not addicted to wine -> Drink in moderation Be not a great eater -> Eat in moderation Be not lazy -> Be diligent (edit): formatting
- makach 4y ago
  I think commanding people instead of asking them is better if you want to achieve something. I think there has been some research on this (source anyone?) and it is particularly well know when talking to children, if you ask it as a question it is ambiguous what the answer might be so you opt in to not "be humble" nor "speak the truth"
- quickthrower2 4y ago
  Leave other people alive sounds weird to me. Sort of implies you go around accidentally killing people by default and a handy reminder to not do that is what this is.
- maccolgan 4y ago
  “Be truthful to your partner” is not the inverse of “Do not commit adultery”.
mariodiana 4y ago
I myself am not a believer; but with the way things have been going in this world, I'm tempted to ask him to add a "Fork me on GitHub" to the end of the list.
RagnarD 4y ago
People should be concerned that Facebook is giving 24 hours bans for simply posting a link to the SQLite Code of Ethics page - asserting that it violates FB community standards about sexuality ...

306 points by zaksingh 4y ago

> 54. Speak no useless words or words that move to laughter. > 55. Do not love much or boisterous laughter. I’m out. ROLLBACK TRANSACTION;

mikece 4y ago
Ironically, the goal isn't to be humorless but to not inordinately seek or be attached to humor or fellowship. If you were truly humorless you would likely run afoul of #39. It's truly about interior and exterior balance.

eimrine 4y ago

That much concerning on the person of religion creates nothing except war. It is like when you are claiming in license that your sw can't be used for evil and get surprised that your sw is not compatible with free licenses.

hombre_fatal 4y ago

Seems pretty self-important/pretentious. It's just a database, guys.

ben_jones 4y ago
You didn't know SQLite cures cancer?
jccooper 4y ago
"This document continues to be used for its original purpose - providing a reference to fill in the "code of conduct" box on supplier registration forms."
- thrown_22 4y ago
  I remember the code of conduct push overnight on all open source projects. It was such a bizarre time. What's worse is that pretty much everyone folded.
  - paulryanrogers 4y ago
    What would you consider the best response to the desire for clear boundaries and expectations from project communities?
    - vinyl7 4y ago
      "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me"
    - teakettle42 4y ago
      The best response? “No”. The code of conduct push was a transparent game of social aggression — an attempt to shift open source power dynamics in favor of: (1) Allowing social activists, who could not acquire institutional power on the basis of their own technical merit, to co-opt open source institutions for their own aims and to extract resources. See also the contributor covenant, DEI consultants, et al. (2) Securing the necessary power structures to enforce the beliefs of their particular vein of progressive political activism. In my experience being very involved with a few large projects that were pressured into adopting a code of conduct, the historically most toxic and socially aggressive personalities in the project became the biggest proponents of adopting a code of conduct, engaging in bad faith and with extreme social aggression to tear down any detractors, hiding behind their newfound righteousness as a defense.
      - paulryanrogers 4y ago
        So a few bad apples has ruined the whole idea in your mind? Are you also satisfied with the diversity within the project communities that you contribute to?
        4y ago

ThalesX 4y ago

Hmm, is this some sort of Meta I’m missing? It feels strange to mix so many cultural ‘suggestions’ with a database product. > Listen willingly to holy reading. > Devote yourself frequently to prayer. > Daily in your prayers, with tears and sighs, confess your past sins to God, and amend them for the future. Anyway, sqlite is a good product and I don’t even mind all that much to have a code of Ethics associated to it, just not a thing you see often.

ticviking 4y ago
The point is that the other codes of conduct often embed other particular cultural suggestions and assumptions, but since they are those of your own you don't notice them as jarringly as those of medieval Christendom.
- ThalesX 4y ago
  > but since they are those of your own you don't notice them as jarringly Why would you assume this about me and not take at face value that I really believe you don't find these often in the wild. It's just my personal experience that I haven't seen these out in the wild all that much (I can't think of an example), and it was surprising to me.
  - CRConrad 4y ago
    > It's just my personal experience that I haven't seen these out in the wild all that much What, OSS project codes of conduct?!? Weird; how the heck does one miss that whole phenomenon? There has been lots of controversy around (some of) them in much of online media about computing over the last few years, including huge threads of heated discussion here on HN.
- astrange 4y ago
  I don’t think that is the point. I do think everyone takes it as the point though.
SubjectToChange 4y ago

Jamie9912 4y ago

i'm getting Terry Davis vibes

juice_bus 4y ago
RIP
akatechis 4y ago
The glow in the darks got him... :(
rschachte 4y ago
Damn. RIP Terry, true legend
maccolgan 4y ago
RIP

pdenton 4y ago

Why is it a list and not a table? Seems like a pretty simple case of CREATE TABLE ethics ( id INT PRIMARY KEY, rule TEXT );

why-el 4y ago
What happens during downtime for maintenance?
- hrgiger 4y ago
  Its mean you failed to spread the love horizontally
- kingofpandora 4y ago
  You say 10 hail Marys and 5 our Fathers.
andreareina 4y ago
For all we know it is stored in a table

youngNed 4y ago

It takes a special kind of arrogance to believe that you can rewrite the 10 commandments. But to rewrite them, see them there on the screen and not realise you have done it, in a much more inefficient way, and also much, much worse. Thats just a breakdown.

jccooper 4y ago
Tell it St Benedict. He's the one who wrote it.
- youngNed 4y ago
  I fully intend to. I have a few arguments to have with a few others before i get to him though, he's far from the worst.

molyss 4y ago

seeing as some people have already added some comments criticizing the code of conduct, I thought I'd add what I think is the most important parts of that code of Ethics : > No one is required to follow The Rule [...] or even think that [it] is a good idea. [...] anyone is free to dispute or ignore that idea [...] > This is a one-way promise [...]. the developers are saying "we will treat you this way regardless of how you treat us" No one is forcing their beliefs onto anyone. keep the pitchforks in the shed.

formerly_proven 4y ago
> No one is forcing their beliefs onto anyone. keep the pitchforks in the shed. I don't want a solution, I want to be mad.
- celticninja 4y ago
  Reddit is that way ->
jimbob45 4y ago
Except for all the current developers which makes it seem like Christianity is a prerequisite for getting hired or contributing. I get frustrated at the SJW CoCs but this is arguably just as bad or worse.
- jhgb 4y ago
  > makes it seem like Christianity is a prerequisite for getting hired or contributing ...how could one possibly get this impression, when it literally says "No one is required to follow The Rule"?
  - ev1 4y ago
    Don't forget 'was created for the purpose of filling in a box on "supplier registration" forms [.....] This document continues to be used for its original purpose - providing a reference to fill in the "code of conduct" box on supplier registration forms.'

frankjr 4y ago

[flagged]

kennywinker 4y ago
Meh. I'm deeply atheist, but if I s/god/luck, s/christ/this-philosophy and s/prayer/contemplative-thought it doesn't seem to me there's much in there that's objectionable... except maybe 11, 44, 45, 57, and 63. Less than 7% drivel by my generous accounting.
thesuperbigfrog 4y ago
>> Pretty disappointing. I would have expected better than this religious drivel. If it's a joke, then you got me. You can respect a person and their views on how they treat others without disparaging them. It states: "No one is required to follow The Rule, to know The Rule, or even to think that The Rule is a good idea. The Founder of SQLite believes that anyone who follows The Rule will live a happier and more productive life, but individuals are free to dispute or ignore that advice if they wish." Common descency and respect towards others does not ask you to believe as they do, but to let them speak and be heard.

ciupicri 4y ago

It's breeze of fresh air compared to most code of conducts which sound like communist propaganda. This and the Linux code of conflict.

kennywinker 4y ago
I'm not sure what you think communism is, but: 2. Then, love your neighbor as yourself. 5. Do not steal. 6. Do not covet. 14. Relieve the poor. 15. Clothe the naked. 18. Be a help in times of trouble. 38. Be not lazy. Those are all pretty deeply in line with marxism. Jesus was a communist, after all.
- homieg33 4y ago
  Free will
  - kennywinker 4y ago
    42. Attribute to God, and not to self, whatever good you see in yourself. 59. Fulfill not the desires of the flesh; hate your own will. 60. Obey in all things the commands of those whom God has placed in authority over you even though they (which God forbid) should act otherwise, mindful of the Lord's precept, "Do what they say, but not what they do." I'm not seeing a lot of room for free will in this document.
    - michaelsbradley 4y ago
      Human freedom is the freedom to do good, not license to do whatever you want to do or can do.
      - kennywinker 4y ago
        Freedom to do good? That's already been covered: 42. Attribute to God, and not to self, whatever good you see in yourself. That's not your freedom or your will, that's god's doing. Or so this document says. So by your definition, there is no free will in this document.

petilon 4y ago

So... what is SQLite's stance on abortion? [Edit] Found it: it's supported: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3912417/is-there-a-way-to-abort-an-sqlite-call https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3912417/is-there-a-way-t...

racl101 4y ago
SQLite: "When my mother was abducted by the Communists, she was with child.... but the Communists, they put an end to that! So, on this issue there is no debate! And no intelligent person can think differently."
- hobo_mark 4y ago
  According to the Search Engine, that's a quote from Seinfeld, nothing to do with SQLite. https://www.seinfeldscripts.com/TheCouch.html https://www.seinfeldscripts.com/TheCouch.html
  - deleted 4y ago
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nodesocket 4y ago
His stance is his own and frankly private. If he chooses to open up about it publicly fine, but sitting on a soap box online demanding political and private questions wreaks of moral and intellectual false superiority.
- petilon 4y ago
  But it is in line with the 72 rules listed. If you're a developer who wants to contribute to SQLite, you might want to know beforehand if you will be expected to sign on to a 73rd rule.
  - csande17 4y ago
    One benefit of adopting a 1,500-year-old code of ethics is that it's probably not going to suddenly change on you.

adamgordonbell 4y ago

Before I got to talk with Richard, I found many things online about his Christian values and public domain license and how odd it was. And I thought this was THE fascinating thing about Richard that led to the database and other things. But then I talked to him. He's a great engineer but a regular guy running a business around a thing he built. He gets to be a bit whimsical because he can. He can use his own source control and license, and he can certainly make up a code of ethics, to check a check box on some form somewhere. The cool thing about SQLite is that he built this thing and gets to do things his way. This is just a specific instance of that. Shameless plug: https://corecursive.com/066-sqlite-with-richard-hipp/ https://corecursive.com/066-sqlite-with-richard-hipp/

dash2 4y ago
That's a great interview - so interesting not just on Richard but also on the early history of Android and mobile phone development. He seems like the best kind of libertarian, not just "oh give me lower taxes" but "I want to be free and I'm gonna pay the price to do that".
alexpetros 4y ago
I started listening to your podcast a month ago because I was curious about SQLite and came across the transcript. This episode is excellent, as is the podcast backlog overall. I highly recommend it to my friends.
CoastalCoder 4y ago
Hey Adam, I just started listening to your podcast and I just finished that episode. You did a great job, and it was really informative. Thanks for making it!
amerine 4y ago
This episode inspired me to join your patreon. Thanks for the great podcast.
earth_walker 4y ago
Just want to say that I loved this interview, it was the first I had heard of your show and I've been a regular listener since. Thank you!

quinnjh 4y ago

At a time of decaying social bonds, cultural fragmentation, and no consensus reality, i would much rather work somewhere with an explicit code like this than the countless "we are good people" places that will never define what "being good people" is until they are on the opposite side of a courtroom. Having shared values is very important for a team.

keybored 4y ago
What’s your current religion?
duxup 4y ago
I like the idea of such a code. But at the same time I see religions with that or similar codes and the folks following it seem just as interested in ignoring it or twisting it as a way to push on those not in their religion. Now I don’t think that’s the sql lite folks and plenty of folks don’t do that thing… but just a splash of religion doesn’t make me feel much better about anything.
- mikece 4y ago
  The code is an ideal to achieve. Some of the items are easy (#3: Do not commit murder) while others are a life-long struggle (#32: Do not curse those who curse you, but rather bless them) requiring a daily renewal of purpose. And like any worthwhile daily rule of life it should be something which requires continual effort, something which can never be truly accomplished (which keep complacency at bay).

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tomohawk 4y ago

paulryanrogers 4y ago

ripley12 4y ago

I'm not religious but I've always liked this; it's fun to think of the SQLite developers as a small monastery. If monasteries can produce beer for the world (see: the Trappists), why not software?

wyager 4y ago
If software engineering was available as a monastic vocation, we'd probably have a lot of significantly higher-quality software available. I would much rather use something written by a stylite with an esolang compiler than shat out by 100 poorly-coordinated javascript devs at MEGACORP.
- defenestration 4y ago
  There is a truth hidden in here. I would love to spend time at a monastry and code.
  - nemo1618 4y ago
    You can! I spent a week co-working at MAPLE (https://www.monasticacademy.com https://www.monasticacademy.com) earlier this month, living among monastics and participating in their practice. Honestly, I didn't get a lot of programming done, but that's probably because my goal shifted rather quickly from "get a lot of work done" to "take advantage of this rare opportunity to develop my meditation practice." Still, I think it'd be a great environment for focused programming: you're in a quiet, beautiful setting, your meals are taken care of, and you're surrounded by people who are diligent, respectful, and committed to solving important problems.
    - deleted 4y ago
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  - bardan 4y ago
    Coding in the scriptorium, no less.
- 4y ago

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gorgoiler 4y ago

Lots of Christian theology can get bogged down in the Trinity, what the Holy Ghost part means, etc. There are also much more basic sects where the theology of the Gospel is considerably easier to preach, and where in particular the idea of God simply being other people, and our love for each other is prevalent. It is surprising to see this kind of Christianity here, in a piece of software. Surprising and uplifting. It is all quite an Anglican perspective. I feel sorry for people who don’t have better access to Anglican Communion / Episcopalianism. The more deeply theological sects don’t hold a candle to it.

kwhitefoot 4y ago
I forget who said it but I vaguely remember hearing an Anglican clergyman quoted as saying something like "Anglicans don't do theology" with the implication that Anglicanism is for people not gods. In fact the few priests, both Anglican and Roman, who I have encountered have all been practical people more concerned with people and their mundane problems than religion or theology.

iasay 4y ago

This scares me slightly. When I see a code of ethics bound to faith, I have to wonder what happens if the faith disappears. Experience says lots of people get hurt. I don't wish that on anyone. Ethical stance must stand alone unconditionally. As for the actual rules, picking one in particular, respecting someone purely for being senior is stupid. Respect is simply earned. I respect more people younger and in more junior positions than myself.

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yodon 4y ago
>When I see a code of ethics bound to faith, I have to wonder what happens if the faith disappears. Let's do the math: Christianity has been around for around two orders of magnitude longer than any of the compilers or dev tools you're using on your project. There are probably three orders of magnitude more people who use Christianity than are using any of the languages used in your project. There are probably six orders of magnitude more priests and churches than there are maintainers on all but the top 1% of libraries (open source or closed source) you're using on your project. I'm pretty sure the complete disappearance of Christianity from the face of the earth is not the highest probability risk to worry about for your project, and if it were to completely disappear there would probably be enough other stuff going along with that disappearance that we probably all have bigger things on our mind than the code of ethics published by a software team. If the concern is just "what if the maintainers give up on Christianity," they're probably far more likely to get tired of programming (that happens far more often), but we can observe that their need to make a PR to edit their own code of conduct is not really going to be a particularly hard thing for them to pull off.
- iasay 4y ago
  I think you entirely managed to miss the point there. People don't tell you they lost their faith. They just stop following their code of ethics that was bound to it. I trust a faceless corporation over this attitude.

adamrezich 4y ago

previously: "SQLite: Code of Ethics" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26547201 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26547201 (March 22, 2021 — 37 points, 23 comments) "SQLite updated Code of Conduct" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18313131 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18313131 (October 26, 2018 — 41 points, 89 comments) "SQLite: Code of Ethics" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18297514 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18297514 (October 24, 2018 — 34 points, 19 comments) "SQLite: Code of Conduct" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273530 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273530 (October 22, 2018 — 338 points, 288 comments [flagged]) "SQLite: Code of Conduct" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273390 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273390 (October 22, 2018 — 157 points, 60 comments)

bowsamic 4y ago
Wow, we often complain that HN has degraded, but the comments on that bottom link are very low quality

no_butterscotch 4y ago

The fact that repositories even have "codes of conduct" is Orwellian on one hand and a sign of idiocracy on the other.

kragen 4y ago
Yeah, my commentary on this nonsense is at https://gitlab.com/kragen/bubbleos/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md https://gitlab.com/kragen/bubbleos/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDU.... > Could J. K. Rowling require Harry Potter readers to follow a code of conduct? Could Werner Heisenberg demand that you subscribe to a code of conduct if you want to do quantum physics? ... > Codes of conduct typically make laudable promises such as “We pledge to respect all people,” in an attempt to convince readers that they [the authors] will behave laudably. In my experience, though, people who put a lot of effort into telling you how laudably they will behave do not behave any any more laudably than other people do — slightly the contrary, in fact. ... > ... I expect that I’ll be delighted if you send me patches and bug reports, but on that count I make no promises. Feel free to send them repeatedly through different channels if you don’t get a response at first, since I often don’t notice things. If you like how I respond when you send me patches or bug reports, then maybe it would be a good idea to do more of it. If you don’t like it, then maybe you would be happier if you stopped. I’ll do my best to be polite, but I screw that up pretty often, to be honest. ... > But, as I said before, what humans tell you they will do is not a very reliable predictor of what they will do. If you want to know what to expect of them, look at their past behavior. Don’t just look at their self-reports of their past behavior, although admissions against interest there can be quite revealing; look at traces it has left that they cannot delete, such as your own memory, mailing list archives, past Gitlab issues, and other people talking about them.
- kennywinker 4y ago
  > Could J. K. Rowling require Harry Potter readers to follow a code of conduct? Nobody attempts to apply codes of conduct to users of software - that's the domain of the license agreement. They only apply to communities. Virtually every online community around harry potter has some set of rules for participating in that community. e.g. https://stories.jkrowling.com/terms-of-use/ https://stories.jkrowling.com/terms-of-use/ > Could Werner Heisenberg demand that you subscribe to a code of conduct if you want to do quantum physics? Heisenberg was the post-ww2 president of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Physics (quickly renamed the Max Planck Institute post war) - which was involved in human "medical" experimentation in nazi concentration camps. During his governence: "after 1945 neither active participants in the Third Reich nor hangers-on were called to account" - https://www.mpg.de/history/kws-under-national-socialism https://www.mpg.de/history/kws-under-national-socialism So a guy who presided over an organization that didn't bother to clean house after being directly involved in the fucking holocaust isn't exactly my go-to for how to run a healthy community.

jl6 4y ago

> Be in dread of hell. This one’s in the Oracle Master Agreement too.

sremani 4y ago

SQLite is anti-fragile.

keybored 4y ago

Super weird to make a COC about your Christian values but I respect the check-the-form hustle.

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byecomputer 4y ago
I think it's funny. "Need a code of conduct? Here, this one's a classic"

newintellectual 4y ago

swarnie 4y ago

I failed at step 1 > No one is required to follow The Rule, to know The Rule, or even to think that The Rule is a good idea. Oh thank god for that...

amachefe 4y ago

Another one? Looks like we get this every quarter.. Anyway, if you dont like it, fork it... or use another Db.

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gadders 4y ago

I don't hate it.

isitmadeofglass 4y ago

There are some questionable ones in between there. > Obey in all things the commands of those whom God has placed in authority over you even though they (which God forbid) should act otherwise, mindful of the Lord's precept, "Do what they say, but not what they do." This would have you willingly submit to sexual assault by a priest. And really should be revised considering the slew of cases against the church, or at least be revised with some sort of exception not just to “not do as they do, do as they say”, but to not obey them when they commit such acts. And yes, I understand that this is in no way forced upon anyone and is just a “I believe” statement, but still I would argue that the suggestion that those who live by these rules live happier lives is countered by every choirboy who submitted and obeyed a person god had place in authority over them, and got assaulted as a result. Plenty of those rules I would agree, though it seems every mention of the institution which is “god” is irrelevant, redundant, harmful or downright sinister. I think it right to cut down the list a slight bit.

doliveira 4y ago
Yeah, one of the most problematic views indeed. "Don't touch the Lord's anointed ones" is a mandate commonly used for religious leaders to discourage any sort of criticism of their actions. Beliefs like this do matter. They inform the actions of millions of people across the world.
contravariant 4y ago
I'm somewhat worried that there's a lot of 'love thy neighbour as thyself' combined with a lot of self-hatred/denial.

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claytongulick 4y ago

When viewing this through the lens of "God is a proxy symbol for the first order derivative of your society" these rules make a lot of sense. If you re-read this with that interpretation, it's pretty amazing stuff.

gigatexal 4y ago

What if a dev wanted to work on the project and was a devout devil worshiper or an atheist wine bibber…

kwhitefoot 4y ago
They merely have to provide contributions that live up to the technical standard of SQLite (good luck) and dedicate them to the public domain. Their religion or lack of is not a problem.

rasengan0 4y ago

39. Be not a grumbler. I have failed, but sqlite yields no grumbling

mikece 4y ago
There are several points on this list that crudely translate to "don't be an asshole" at which I personally need to improve. #39 is one of them.

My104thaccount 4y ago

This is way more fucked up than any "code of conduct" but treated much less controversially on HN

nabla9 4y ago

Robustness principle: "be conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from others"[1] is a good ethical rule. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robustness_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robustness_principle

edflsafoiewq 4y ago
A much better ethical rule than a technical one actually.

mattewong 4y ago

"I don't want to be beholden to Gmail [...] controlling a record of all of my conversations". Replacing Gmail: now THAT sounds interesting

slickdifferent 4y ago

People here try to subvert expectations with their takes so much that it's no surprise that there are so many posts saying there is nothing wrong with this and to not use it if you don't agree. If the post wasn't specifically drawing attention to the unusual code of ethics, people would be dragging it through the mud for the potential to generate bad PR or some other example illustrating why 'successful companies keep their codes plain and boring for a reason'.

utopcell 4y ago

I've used SQLite in the long past (early 2000s) and had fun with it, but I had never seen this. Imposing your religious beliefs through a ..code of "ethics" no less, in exchange for some (arguably small) thing you've done that is completely irrelevant to these beliefs is ludicrous. While I secretly hope that the author is light-spirited in writing this, I will err on the safe side and never use, and actively steer folks away from using, SQLite in the future. Incidentally, the page has some internal consistency issues: ``` Honor all people. ``` has historically not played well with: ``` First of all, love the Lord God with your whole heart, your whole soul, and your whole strength. Deny oneself in order to follow Christ. Prefer nothing more than the love of Christ. Put your hope in God. Attribute to God, and not to self, whatever good you see in yourself. Fear the Day of Judgment. Be in dread of hell. Desire eternal life with all the passion of the spirit. Keep death daily before your eyes. Know for certain that God sees you everywhere. When wrongful thoughts come into your heart, dash them against Christ immediately. Listen willingly to holy reading. Devote yourself frequently to prayer. Daily in your prayers, with tears and sighs, confess your past sins to God, and amend them for the future. Obey in all things the commands of those whom God has placed in authority over you even though they (which God forbid) should act otherwise, mindful of the Lord's precept, "Do what they say, but not what they do." Do not wish to be called holy before one is holy; but first to be holy, that you may be truly so called. Fulfill God's commandments daily in your deeds. Pray for your enemies in the love of Christ. Never despair of God's mercy. ```

zimpenfish 4y ago
> in exchange for some (arguably small) thing you've done I dunno that I'd describe the most deployed database in the world "some (arguably small) thing", really?
- utopcell 4y ago
  Scale is relative: my day-to-day involves working at a planet-scale serving infrastructure that handles trillions of documents. I've always thought of sqlite as "this little library that you drop in for handling small datasets reliably". For the sake of argument though, let it be a library that is deployed everywhere: its usefulness or technical prowess was never in question. There are religious folks whose work I reference or use frequently, but they keep their beliefs to themselves. Don Knuth is a canonical example of this for me. No issues there, anyone should be free to believe whatever gets them through their day. In my (subjective, biased, maybe incorrect,) opinion, people whose code of "ethics" includes phrases like "keep death daily before your eyes, fear the Day of Judgment and be in dread of hell" are dangerous. I doubt they're even aware that hell was voted in existence centuries after their savior was crucified. The amount of life lost and the intellectual stagnation stemming from these religious fanatics, these broken people, is staggering. We'd have reached Alpha Centauri by now were it not for them.

tantaman 4y ago

Anything couched in religious language immediately turns people off even if what is being said perfectly aligns with the reader’s beliefs. Philosophize this has some good discussions about religious vocabulary when discussing Kierkegaard.

nindalf 4y ago

There’s that libertarian streak of “his project, his rules” in this thread. He can include or exclude anyone he wants because it’s his project. Well, I read the very first line and see that he doesn’t want me, or people like me to be a contributor to this project. And that’s fine. His project, so I hear. But personally, I’ve felt welcome to contribute to every other open source project out there. I’ve felt welcome to apply to any job out there. It feels jarring to be excluded like this. I feel hurt. I shouldn’t be made to feel like this, just because of my religious views. And no, please don’t split any hairs like “no, he’s not excluding, he’s actually describing…”. You wouldn’t be supporting him if the first line changed to be based on race instead of religion. Then why are you supporting him now?

adamrezich 4y ago
from https://www.sqlite.org/copyright.html https://www.sqlite.org/copyright.html: > SQLite is open-source, meaning that you can make as many copies of it as you want and do whatever you want with those copies, without limitation. But SQLite is not open-contribution. In order to keep SQLite in the public domain and ensure that the code does not become contaminated with proprietary or licensed content, the project does not accept patches from people who have not submitted an affidavit dedicating their contribution into the public domain. what makes you think that every open-source project should "make you feel welcome"? "I shouldn’t be made to feel like this"—where does that idea come from? "shouldn't" on what basis? many open-source projects' Codes of Ethics/Conduct/whatever make me feel explicitly unwelcome, but a.) I don't care, and b.) I don't feel entitled to feel welcome in everyone else's project. what makes you feel differently?
- nindalf 4y ago
  > many open-source projects' Codes of Ethics/Conduct/whatever make me feel explicitly unwelcome Most open source projects Code of Conduct boil down to "don't be mean to other contributors, treat them well". I'm sorry this makes you feel explicitly unwelcome. That said, it's never been a problem for me to adhere to that. This is a first time for me being excluded, and it feels bad. I'm commenting on why this person has gone out of his way to do that. Exclusion is not the norm in online programming spaces. Nor would we tolerate it if someone started excluding people on the basis of something like race. But seemingly there are apologists for exclusion on the basis of religion.

thunderbong 4y ago

In this world of bits and bytes, a lot of early principles set by the founders get compromised as time goes on. We, as developers, tend to take these as "that's just the way it is", and move on. Sure, some of us, try. Root our phones, host our own emails. But really, isn't being a good human underlying all that goes above it? I'm not a Christian. I'm not even religious. IMHO though, if any software that I've ever written or would write in future, would help others realize that in the big picture, a belief and faith in humanity is the most important thing above all else, I would consider myself privileged.

imwillofficial 4y ago

I love this, doubling down on personal beliefs in face of opposition

quasarj 4y ago

Ahhhh this explains the reason SQLite is so.. disciplined. It's created by a group of monks!

lfkdev 4y ago

These rules sound terrible. What is it with people to put everything they do in God? Just do it because you're a good guy and you want to do it. Not because some galactic justice tolds you to do it. Really a shame.

ignoramous 4y ago
> ...and you want to do it That want, for some, takes root in their beliefs and faith. May sound ridiculous but many things do to anyone alien to it.
astrange 4y ago
That concept wasn’t invented when the rules were written, and it’s lose the effect if you rewrote them.

verytrivial 4y ago

This sort of thing used to annoy me in my youth. But there is a lot of good stuff in there. These are directions on how YOU should live your life, so strike out as appropriate. SQLite is great and if pondering these rules helped, only a fool would avoid pondering them out of spite.

tootie 4y ago
But they could just strike all the ones that mention god and hell and not lost anything of value. I also think the morality only rings true if you were raised in a Christian dominated society. No one living in the real world can afford to love their enemies. That's what people in monasteries can say but not ones who are responsible for protecting people.
- moreira 4y ago
  > No one living in the real world can afford to love their enemies. I’m reminded of a passage in Great Expectations that helped me understand exactly just what this means: > "so you're the blacksmith, are you? Then I'm sorry to say, I've eat your pie." > "God knows you're welcome to it, so far as it was ever mine," […] "We don't know what you have done, but we wouldn't have you starved to death for it, poor miserable fellow-creatur.” Here’s a guy, an escaped convict, who stole from them, and yet, he’s still being treated decently, and with respect. I might be way off base, but I feel like that’s what it’s about.
  - tootie 4y ago
    Charity and compassion are one thing, but sometimes you need to fight your enemies in the interests of justice. People in need or people who have made mistakes aren't necessarily your enemies. I thinking more like lying down in the face of unchecked aggression. I don't believe there will be justice in any sort of afterlife, so we have to deal with it now or never. I mean, what would St Benedict say about the Trolley Problem?
- naniwaduni 4y ago
  Well, it would lose the value of being nominally attributable to a 1500yo monastic document. This might not make a difference to you if you don't acknowledge the the provenance (nor, heck, if you think the provenance is shot in translation), but on net it probably matters a lot more that the small number of people agreeing to the document, presumably none of whom are you, do.

victor9000 4y ago

No less ridiculous than other similar documents out there

CRConrad 4y ago
OTOH, no more ridiculous than (most?) other similar documents out there.

terrib1e 4y ago

Madness

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alphachloride 4y ago

I am not a prolific contributor in the open source scene, but I participate with some frequency. I've always thought Codes of conduct are simply platitudes to keep over-eager human resources personnel, twitter activists, and their ilk at bay. Never once have I ever felt the need to look over the codes on any service. Such pages are simply background noise that contribute nothing but the occupation of space to a project. This has been my impression thus far. I do not subscribe to all the beliefs the author espouses, but I am sympathetic with them. Admittedly, I feel myself cheering him on for standing his ground against this vacuous criticism.

drewrv 4y ago
Not an open source project, but I’ve seen a Code of Conduct save a local user group when drama erupted between a founding organizer and a regular member. Having a written agreement and guidelines to mediate conflicts is vital once a community gets to a certain size. Humans have been doing this since Hammurabi.

Aeolun 4y ago

Honestly, 72 rules, most of which overlap to some extend, do not seem like they would be easy to follow. I do think it’s nice that “respect your parents” has been modified to “respect everyone”.

raggi 4y ago

How do they interpret the self-flagellation rule?

loveJesus 4y ago

barrysteve 4y ago

I don't know why a technology company needs a "code of conduct" or "ethics". The management embodies the ethics they desire to display and enforce. Has the institutional hierarchy lost the ability to govern and persuade their employees? Posting it for PR reasons is too close to virtue signalling. Having a code of conduct and explicitly informing the world that you are Catholic and run the place in a Catholic manner, can be divisive. Not because Catholicism is a Big Bad™ or whatever current scandal, blah blah. Because Catholics have a very distinct management style that excludes free flowing ideas and a two-way relationship with management, and focuses on nailing down perfect form. Sometimes it produces great results, other times not so much. When it doesn't, it can be even more difficult to offer an alternative method, because of a strict CoC. For employees, the rules are sometimes used by management as an unintentional denial of different solutions. People who know how this management style impacts their work life, may avoid the company. The internal environment becomes over-specialized towards one particular way of thinking and enacting technological change. Which is probably fine for SQLite to forever be the same as it was, which is all most people want out of the project anyway. As a general trend though, it's concerning that otherwise solid companies are closing the front door to new ideas and opening the window so the non-CoC thinking can fly away. The relationship everyone wants in the corporate world, is with the most skilled people at the best price. It doesn't necessarily correlate with perfect form or political CoCs.

lifeisstillgood 4y ago

So I am intrigued by the idea of the Axial Age transition - roughly 500BC and worlds big population centres (India China Persia) hit some kind of population tipping point, developed massive abusive slavery and wars and then developed much more restrictive religions as a means to control the larger populations. The argument is tenuous but it reminds me a lot of the Shakespeare / Lope de Vega transition- sometimes population is dense enough to chnage something. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_Age https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_Age

naniwaduni 4y ago
It's, in brief, the sort of pseudo-anthropology that's very appealing to systematizing minds, but falls apart immediately when you have to engage with the fact that the cultures in questions did not have remotely similar experiences at that time—it's telling that you seized on "big population centres (India China Persia)" in particular. But you have to squint really hard to make them look similar.
- lifeisstillgood 4y ago
  I get the "yeah nah dodgy" concerns about it. But humans have gone through several stages of civilisation that can be defined as "the number of people physically near enough me to be a threat" - from tribes that could go years without meeting others to football stadiums full of thousands. Each of the above civilisations went through a population / density transition - and did so within a few hundred years - and came out with some surprisingly similar religious / cultural rules that were a) different to what had gone before b) similar in some respects to each other I am certainly not arguing there was some shared kernel of religion, just that there was a new economic/ social pressure and the "solution" to it was a new form of religion / social contract. In short - as human economics and civilisation changes, so does the way we govern ourselves (religion is a governing force). It seems reasonable to argue that as different civilisations go through the same pinch points they will find similar solutions. We also should assume we are going through such as pinch point today (either the long term industrial revolution or the near term internet revolution). And yes - systemising minds need to be aware of their own proclivities- a hard won lesson

SergeAx 4y ago

Shouldn't we put "(2018)" label on that?

throwaway81523 4y ago

We need one of those for the Church of Emacs. I bless your computer, my child!

scns 4y ago

As good as the intentions behind them are, they work much better by leaving negations out. Do not murder -> Leave other people alive Do not commit adultery -> Be truthful to your partner Do not steal, Do not covet -> Be content with what you have Do not bear false witness -> Speak the truth Do not do to another what you would not have done to yourself -> Treat others like you want to be treated Do not become attached to pleasures -> Practice moderation Do not give way to anger -> Stay calm Do not nurse a grudge, Do not return evil for evil, Do not curse those who curse you, but rather bless them, Do no wrong to anyone, and bear patiently wrongs done to yourself -> Practice forgiveness Be not proud -> Be humble Be not addicted to wine -> Drink in moderation Be not a great eater -> Eat in moderation Be not lazy -> Be diligent (edit): formatting

makach 4y ago
I think commanding people instead of asking them is better if you want to achieve something. I think there has been some research on this (source anyone?) and it is particularly well know when talking to children, if you ask it as a question it is ambiguous what the answer might be so you opt in to not "be humble" nor "speak the truth"
quickthrower2 4y ago
Leave other people alive sounds weird to me. Sort of implies you go around accidentally killing people by default and a handy reminder to not do that is what this is.
maccolgan 4y ago
“Be truthful to your partner” is not the inverse of “Do not commit adultery”.

mariodiana 4y ago

I myself am not a believer; but with the way things have been going in this world, I'm tempted to ask him to add a "Fork me on GitHub" to the end of the list.

RagnarD 4y ago

People should be concerned that Facebook is giving 24 hours bans for simply posting a link to the SQLite Code of Ethics page - asserting that it violates FB community standards about sexuality ...