16 ms·
Enclave: An Unpickable Lock
- totalview 4y agoJust about every key lock in the world today has the same fundamental flaw. They are designed by a human being, and they test if that design can be exploited by calling it unpick-able. This flaw opens up infinite kinds of vulnerabilities.
- rubenfrcordeiro 4y agoIt's time to send a unit to the Lockpicking Lawyer: https://youtube.com/c/lockpickinglawyer https://youtube.com/c/lockpickinglawyer
- what-imright 4y ago
- ketzu 4y agoWhy do you dislike people making a logo and trademark out of their name? It is a very old way to identify your trade with your name. In some countries it is the default for sole proprietorship to use your name in that way.
- what-imright 4y agobecause branding is for companies and their products. it’s an attempt at misrepresentation
- tptacek 4y ago"You can just kick in the door" is approximately the least interesting thing you could possibly say about a new pick-resistant lock design. Sure, you could use an RFID lock, too! Or an armed guard.
- what-imright 4y agobut it’s true. sword making is very interesting as well, but we don’t make swords because we have guns. live in the now
- numlock86 4y ago> What’s with people making a logo and trademark using their name? That’s really sad. Can’t take designers seriously after they make a logo for themselves Care to elaborate? If anything people not having anything to be proud of their name for (like you apparently?) are a pretty sad and depressing thing to think about.
- hprotagonist 4y agoI’m looking forward to sometime next month or so: “Little click on one…”
- foobarian 4y agoWhat if Andrew Magill is lockpickinglawyer!
- TaylorAlexander 4y agoLol then it would be sold through his web store covertinstruments.com
- hprotagonist 4y agoalong with the pick that bosnian bill and i made
- lisper 4y agoIronically, that disc-detainer pick is the one thing that is not available for sale on covertinstruments. I went looking for it the other day and it's not listed at all, not even as "out of stock".
- EMIRELADERO 4y agoIt's actually sold by Sparrows https://www.sparrowslockpicks.com/product_p/DISCT.htm https://www.sparrowslockpicks.com/product_p/DISCT.htm
- lisper 4y agoAh! Thanks! Gotta love the description: The Community Disc pick Blah blah blah blah Lock picking lawyer blah blah blah Bosnian Bill blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah Over a year blah blah blah blah blah blah blah Pandemic blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah so many emails blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah Isolation blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah back on carbs blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah Ties and no playoffs? Why do you even do this? blah blah Zip ties blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah Lucky Saskwatch blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah Stop touching your face still applies blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah Black Finish blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah This is the way.
- texaslonghorn5 4y agointeresting concept, how does $250 rank among costs for similar locks?
- asojfdowgh 4y agohttps://www.bowleylockcompany.com/store/c1/Featured_Products.html https://www.bowleylockcompany.com/store/c1/Featured_Products... comes to mind as another "unpickable" lock provider The prices are vastly different, but the 250 is for a pre-production demo model, I'd expect the price to be halved or more upon production
- nodesocket 4y agoLockPickingLawyer[1] might have something to say about "unpickable". [1] https://www.youtube.com/c/lockpickinglawyer https://www.youtube.com/c/lockpickinglawyer
- xarope 4y ago"With a special shim made from the cap of a whiskey that Bosnian Bill and I were drinking, I managed to pick this lock in 23 seconds. In all fairness, without this specialized tool, this would have been an incredibly difficult feat..."
- astrange 4y agoHe hasn't picked a Bowley lock yet, which is designed to have a wall in front of the lock with a weird key shape. Some other people have though.
- mgdlbp 4y agoLPL was actually challenged a year ago with unpickable prototypes made by an engineering YouTuber, Stuff Made Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecy1FBdCRbQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecy1FBdCRbQ (see also description)
- XorNot 4y agoThe best part of that video is where he notes that the hinge pins were welded "to prevent me from tapping them out and declaring victory...and he was right to do that as that's exactly what I would've done".
- asojfdowgh 4y agoI do feel that selective brute forcing is going to become popular one day or another e.g. a key with mechanical sections to actuate the pins to specific heights, plus, a very precise rotational sensor (perhaps acoustic sensors too) but anyways, potential but easily fixable methods: a magnet with enough force to pull the slider would give tension, so just don't make it ferrous the slider will always get super close to the front of the lock body, could be drilled, even if a stronger steel or the such, and then tension from there. Fixed by not surrounding the last pin with the slider, only needs ~1/4th of the last pin's space at most. Its a nice solution, very compact overall
- Cyclical 4y agoWhile very cool and seemingly well-designed, this seems like a derivative of the lock developed by the YouTuber StuffMadeHere. A little strange to see someone applying for a patent for a version of someone else's design.
- subtract-smiles 4y agoI agree, it seems a little strange. I also seem to recall that the LockPickingLawyer was able to break that lock using two separate methods that I didn't see addressed in the article, so I wonder how much this person just copied StuffMadeHere..
- dcow 4y agoLPL “cheated” when picking SMH’s lock but still provided valuable feedback. Both weaknesses he found are easily fixed. In one case he could walk the deadbolt back because of a precision error/oversight in SMH’s lock. The other he stuck a small shim between the door and the lock to tension the second tumbler which is not an issue with this lock and easily fixed on SMH’s lock by closing the back with a plate.
- subtract-smiles 4y agoOh, I see. I'm no expert but at least I understand the things LPL did a but better now.
- threeseed 4y ago> A little strange to see someone applying for a patent for a version of someone else's design. Apparently it's common depending on the country you live. Some countries have a first-to-file versus a first-to-invent patent system. And so you end up with people (often inventors or retired lawyers) who spend their days filing patents for other people's inventions. The idea being that they only need one or two of the patents in their lifetime to result in a massive payday for it be all worth it.
- 4y ago
- droidist2 4y agoNot the LockPickingLawyer (I hope he gets his hands on one soon) but here's a video review/demonstration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNHFyc1oMwU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNHFyc1oMwU
- elromulous 4y ago+1. LPL has disproven the claims of many "unpickable" locks. If computer security has taught me anything, unhackable/impenetrable claims, cyber or physical, should be met with skepticism.
- sathackr 4y agoI have always said "if someone made it, someone can break it" Nothing is unhackable/impenetrable. period.
- megalottachoc 4y agoDarn right there. Is it can be opened with a key, there's nothing stopping something else emulating that key - even if resorting to brute force until the key pattern matches.
- elromulous 4y agoRight, but just like with e.g. cryptography, you need to make it more expensive to crack than whatever it's protecting.
- sathackr 4y agoWell yea, you could blow it apart with explosives, melt it with acid, or beat the key holder with a wrench until he gave you the key. But I think the idea around "picking" is to nondestructively operate the lock without using the key it is designed for or a copy of such.
- schoen 4y agoCan you make a lock that reliably detects pick attempts and renders itself temporarily or permanently inoperable? (Not that very many lock users would prefer this security vs. availability tradeoff over what they're used to, probably.)
- binarymax 4y agoThis looks very similar to the design[0] by Stuff Made Here (and collaborative hardening [1] suggestions by Lock Picking Lawyer)…an excellent set of videos. https://youtu.be/2A2NY29iQdI https://youtu.be/2A2NY29iQdI https://youtu.be/Ecy1FBdCRbQ https://youtu.be/Ecy1FBdCRbQ
- ryukafalz 4y agoBeat me to it. Yeah, the idea of separating the input step from the test step is something that was done in that lock as well.
- asojfdowgh 4y agoIts the standard procedure for "unpickable" locks before SMH's lock too.
- timhh 4y agoYeah same idea behind my lock too: https://youtu.be/7hUonUE1hEY https://youtu.be/7hUonUE1hEY I'd guess many many people have had this same idea.
- jonah 4y agoYours is so much simpler and more elegant. Thanks for sharing. Beautiful.
- timhh 4y agoThanks!
- mgdlbp 4y agoAccording to the video's pinned comment thread, that lock was sent to LockPickingLayer a few months ago, who never responded. I suppose, from my cousin comment, that it's with the other locks LPL can't pick yet.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- voldacar 4y agoThis actually might be unpickable. But the small space of keys (6^6 combinations) makes me think you could just fabricate every single key and test them one by one, if you were really determined
- jstanley 4y agoThat would be 46656 keys. I don't think this is feasible.
- jefftk 4y agoIt looks extensible to me? I don't see anything keeping you from making it 6x (or 36x) harder by adding one or two more pins.
- skykooler 4y agoIf you can test one key a second (which is unlikely), that's over 12 hours to try all the keys, not to mention having to lug over 800 pounds of keys to the lock in the first place. It's possible, but certainly impractical.
- Gupie 4y agoYou could create a single mechanically adjustable key and a device to automatically try every combination.
- voldacar 4y agoYes, this is a much better idea. might be hard to make such small actuators to get the vertical pinmovement once it's inserted, maybe you could use tiny pneumatic pistons or something
- mNovak 4y agoA lot of people saying this is similar/same to the lock from Stuff Made Here. Certainly both use the same concept of preventing single pin picking by separating the pin alignment and matching stages, but this does appear to be a unique design. SMH used a pushing mechanism to bind the pins in place before trialing a set of gates via rotation; this one sort of does the reverse, with pins never binding (see stack of separable wafers on each pin) put a pushing mechanism trials the combination. This one does seem potentially more compact / compatible to existing form factors. Though it also looks like it'd be vulnerable to just torqueing it, depending on how strong that zigzag bit is. But I guess then you can just break the door.
- pclmulqdq 4y agoTorqueing a lock in a way that is visible is usually not a problem for the threat model a lock is attempting to address. However, this mechanism looks like it may be vulnerable to torqueing without external signs of damage.
- bricemo 4y agoI love how this follows the TED talk playbook: 1: “Here is a thing you are all familiar with” 2: “What if we thought about it DIFFERENTLY?” 3: “Here is the new yet intuitive way to think about it” 4: (Applause. Audience leaves with a easy-to-understand story to tell at cocktail parties) Great work, and very cool lock.
- RajT88 4y agoThe gotterdammerung!
- mNovak 4y agoThis does seem like it might be vulnerable to a comb pick attack, if you can push all those wafer stacks into the sliding bar.
- Cerium 4y agoOh. Very nice. If the wafer is the same thickness as the bar, and the springs allow enough room that should work.
- createdapril24 4y agoThe stock has overlift bars. It isn't detailed on the website but it is mentioned in the youtube video linked in another comment.
- olliej 4y agoI feel like I've seen this two step design multiple times, both on YouTube (LPL, and someone else)? But also I feel like I've seen it somewhere else as well? This seems like the same idea with a "modern" website design .
- swighton 4y agoInteresting design. I made a lock a couple years ago that is quite similar in principle (though this design is different and has a couple nice improvements). https://youtu.be/_7vPNcnYWQ4 https://youtu.be/_7vPNcnYWQ4 One of my main goals is to be an inspiration, though if it was based by my design I wish they’d credit it. Especially since they’re patenting it.
- robmccoll 4y agoYeah I immediately thought of your work when I saw this. The key insight is the same, even if the implementation is different. Everything you do is fascinating by the way!
- harrisi 4y agoThe interaction of engineering and "use" by the Lock Picking Lawyer (https://youtu.be/Ecy1FBdCRbQ https://youtu.be/Ecy1FBdCRbQ) was fascinating - "use" here really meaning "exploiting". It's a problem many here are aware of, either by over-engineering things intended for use by non-engineers, or designing things to be used by customers when the designer isn't intimately familiar with the use. In this case it was sort of somewhere in between. I'm currently an operator of heavy machinery in a factory making tools for the wafer industry, although my main career is in software development. I'm actively working with the tools and software used to get a better understanding of the disconnect between engineering and operations. It's been a great way to consider how to improve tools in ways that aren't just "better" from a software/engineering standpoint. Also, holy cow. I've watched all of your videos multiple times. You are truly an inspiration. Thank you, and apologies for the fanboying.
- franciscop 4y agoDef want to see Enclave's under Lock Picking Lawyer! If you make a "unpickable lock" you'd def want to send it to LPL, that's like the ultimate proof of how easy/hard it is to pick. The fact that there's no video, with how approachable LPL is and accepts random locks in his PO box, can only be seen as a red flag. Do it in the open, like Stuff Made Here!
- upwardbound 4y agoI don't know if this is too slow of an attack to count, but you could build an automated lockpicking machine that would iterate over the possible pin height combinations. If a fast robotic machine could input & test one key pattern per second, it would find the correct pattern in 12.96 hours or less. One pattern per second should be quite feasible. Here's an example video that shows how robots can move very quickly while maintaining submillimeter precision: https://youtu.be/SVuOWwL410U?t=7 https://youtu.be/SVuOWwL410U?t=7
- bryans 4y agoExactly. And based on the test mechanism simply requiring a ~46 degree turn to fail, I think it could actually be done in ~300ms per attempt, which would make the maximum solution even lower at ~4 hours. That's of course still a lot better than a traditional mechanism, which even brute force robotic pickers can tear through rapidly, but it's far from "unpickable." Ultimately, even lengthening the time per attempt wouldn't help save it from attack, because not only is this lock susceptible to robotics, it's easily pickable with audio analysis. Much like the traditional mechanisms that this lock hopes to replace, you only need to analyze one to build a matrix applicable to all of the locks. It's not unpickable, and the creator doesn't claim it's unpickable, either. So the title really shouldn't include the word.
- kortex 4y agoThose master cylinders are of specific dimensions, variable length and probably mass as well. I wonder if one could analyze the audio frequency spectrum, and/or mechanical impulse response, to deduce the length of the master and work out the bitting.
- bryans 4y agoThe fun part of audio is that there's multiple ways to do it. You can use spectrum analysis, impulse response, harmonic frequency, beamforming, triangulation and more. Some would be easier than others in this situation, but you could technically use any of them to pick this lock.
- csours 4y agoWhat's the threat model? Does this lock secure a location that has no windows? Can a sledgehammer be used to open the door? Ok, so maybe covert entry is harder. Do you care THAT much about covert entry? If you care that much about covert entry, do you also have video monitoring? Security solutions need to be used in context.
- paulpauper 4y agoif it's really important, then the lock is probably never going to be enough. you probably want a vault
- andrewflnr 4y agoYour points are technically true but effectively vacuous, equally applicable to all possible door locks. Is there someone claiming that just because this lock is (allegedly) unpickable, it's a complete security solution, so that you felt you had to comment on the importance of other approaches to security?
- csours 4y agoNo, I'm saying that people have an irrational desire for an unpickable lock, perhaps not having considered their security/threat model.
- tptacek 4y agoEveryone interested in lock picking has considered breaking the window. I promise, you're not the first person to think of that, and it doesn't bear repeating in these kinds of conversations.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- Eji1700 4y agoI think it has narrow applications in government high security areas and some corporate things where covert access can be a catastrophe. Also large datacenters and what not where an unknown physical compromise, while VERY difficult to achieve, could have tremendous repercussions. In 90% of situations a bad actor will probably just use brute force. There is something to be said if this isn't bump-able/pick-able, in that at least you won't have the situation where a potential bad actor gains "covert" access, and so people think they're supposed to be there, as opposed to them kicking down the door, but the number of scenarios where that actually matters is slim.
- timonoko 4y agoObvious derivative would be two cores inside each other. Outer core follows the inner core some ten degrees and the opportunity to test pins is gone when you tension the inner core. This might be more robust than that sliding thing. Except the "stack of thin wafers" disappears when the lock wears out. But then, alas, the outer core could made of short rings. Rings must move in unison, and LPL can not tension them all at the same time. "Stack of wafers" not needed. (And thus I accidentally invented combination of disc lock and pin lock. The inner pin lock gives solution the outer disc lock. Patent not pending.. :-)
- 650REDHAIR 4y agoNothing on 1…Click out of 2… Not so patiently waiting on the LPL video.
- sathackr 4y agowonder if you could pick it just enough to allow the first rotation, to the point the slider binds the pins and then just start rapping on it until they lock into place?
- sathackr 4y agoor instead of rapping, just a buzzer or something to vibrate the pins while holding them very lightly bound. Just because you can't pick at the pins doesn't mean you can't move them.
- hackily 4y agoRelevant xkcd https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/
- double_nan 4y agoI’m curious if this lock will be vulnerable to “timing” attack. If it will be possible to understand (by using some side channel) which pins prevented the lock to be turned there will be way less combinations to go through.
- dheera 4y agoThis design, while interesting, is probably more vulnerable to bump keys, jigglers, vibrators, and other such attacks than a normal lock.
- pdpi 4y agoI’m not in any way shape or form equipped to evaluate the lock itself, but I’ve seen enough “uncrackable” security measures being cracked to know better than to believe in flawless security. So… “Unpickable”, “invulnerable”? That’s the sort of language that makes me very grumpy indeed when talking to a security professional.
- Veedrac 4y agoI designed something like this before. Multiple shear lines with a two stage isolation-then-check is intuitive. The details matter, though, and this looks clean. I could see it manufactured. My design tried to avoid it being possible to interact with any of the components storing the code before the pins are isolated. I did this by having two styles of pins (normal vs. T-shaped), and an insertable bar in a specially-cut slot, which checked the right combination of pins were along for the ride. Enclave seems like a much more sensible design in terms of implementation elegance and reliability. This is even more stark compared to other even more complicated designs I have seen. Versus my concept, it also makes it possible to have more than 1 bit per slot. To be completely cautious, however, and fully obsolete those other designs, it would make sense for the top pins to be very slightly spooled along their full length, such that the cut is guaranteed never to touch the sidewall.
- Animats 4y agoMultiple shear lines with a two stage isolation-then-check is intuitive. The details matter, though, and this looks clean. I could see it manufactured. Yes. If you're willing to have a really big lock, it's much easier to make room for a two-stage mechanism where the keying info is stored before use. I'd thought about a lever lock like that, but the thing would need a huge box in or behind the door. There's a possible vulnerability here. This thing may be susceptible to comb picking. The spring channels look to be too long. If you can push the pins up beyond their normal travel, to where the disk stack reaches the top bar, then push the rear actuating pin to operate the top bar, the lock should open. Master Lock is known for making this basic error in lock design, as Lock Picking Lawyer has pointed out. This is a fixable design mistake. You just have to have something that prevents the pins from being pushed too far.
- Veedrac 4y agoMy design just used grooves cut into the cylinder, which the two pin types would ride at different heights, so it didn't need to be any bigger. An insert, aka. a rectangular metal bar with cuts in it, is inserted into a slot cut down the side to define the check key. The pins are either a standard pin, ⣿⣿, or a T-pin, ⢹⡏. The core is cut all around with a groove like ⣿⣆⣰⣿, which they ride at different heights. If the insert is shaped like ⣿⣶⣶⣿, it blocks the T-pin, but the standard pin can ride over the top. If the insert is shaped like ⣿⣇⣸⣿, the T-pin rides through the gap, but the standard pins catch. Again, details like depth and offsets matter, because you don't want it to be bumpable with fast or angry rotations, or for the two pin types to lock at distinguishable offsets, and you don't want it to be jammable. Boring standard fixes can deal with comb attacks. Enclave, OTOH, does need a bigger body, but it's merely a bit taller, nothing radical, and it's very easy to manufacture. It already has inserts to prevent comb attacks.
- theonealtair 4y agoIsn’t this just a Medeco X4?
- W0lf 4y agoWhy did the pins stay in place once they have been pushed into the correct position with the lockpick in the first example (for the old regular lock). I didn’t understand that and would assume that those pins fall back down once the lockpick moves to the next one?
- josephcsible 4y agoIn a hypothetical perfect lock, they would fall back down. But in real life, every lock has slight imperfections, like not all of the pins being exactly the same diameter, and not all of the pin chambers being perfectly lined up. It's these imperfections that let previous pins bind and stay up when you move on to picking other ones.
- sircastor 4y agoThere's an old Justice League Graphic Novel by Alan Moore (I think) I read about 20 years ago. I don't remember the plot, but I remember a scene where most of the heroes - excepting Batman - are in the Pentagon addressing some threat. J'onn J'onzz (Martian Man Hunter) notices Batman lurking in a shadow somewhere who wanted to see what was going on without interference. MMH asks him how he got in. Batman replies that it's just another lock, just a different kind of barrier to get through. While that's fantasy of course, I find the premise of an "unpickable" lock to be inherently faulty. I acknowledge that the design makes sense in terms of be unable to pick it by nature, but I can't help but think that the correct pick hasn't been invented or the appropriate technique hasn't been discovered. At the end of the day, it's just another lock, a different kind of barrier. I also want to say that lock picking seems mostly to have become a parlor trick, and a genuine nefarious attacker approaches the problem by going around the lock...
- lrvick 4y agoI am a reasonably capable lockpicker and lock collector with hundreds of locks of every mechanism I can get my hands on... and as LPL often demonstrates, the vast majority of them, particularly the move clever seeming designs, are actually easy to pick. I have one of the Enclave lock prototypes on my desk and can confirm the machining is brilliant and I have no idea how one could approach picking this. No feedback at all for correct vs incorrect. I plan on taking it to my local SF Toool meetup to see if any of the true experts there can come up with anything.
- moffkalast 4y agoDidn't that guy stuffmadehere make something that's very similar in concept, sent it to LPL and he still managed to open it? I think the attack angle wasn't the mechanism though.
- rblatz 4y agoSo looking at the lock’s YouTube video it may be susceptible to an attack where you set all the pins to their lowest, turn the key and then jolt the lock several times while continuing to turn the key.
- hcrean 4y agoThis kind of comment is why I read these sort of things: Elegant but unexpectedly simple solutions.
- scotty79 4y agoCompressing the springs by jolting the lock (hitting it with something?) might be very hard if springs are strong and pins are light.
- D_Alex 4y agoEspecially if the lock is mounted in a door.
- _alex_ 4y agoyou're describing a bump key! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lock_bumping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lock_bumping
- gzer0 4y agoPlease send this to https://www.youtube.com/c/lockpickinglawyer https://www.youtube.com/c/lockpickinglawyer LockPickingLawyer has picked just about any and every single lock there is known to mankind. Would love to see him up against this! Would make for some great content.
- airforce1 4y agoAs far as I know he never picked his bowley. https://youtu.be/qV8QKZNFxLw https://youtu.be/qV8QKZNFxLw
- barrkel 4y agoHe generally only shows locks he knows how to pick. Unlocking is the payoff to the video and I don't think I've seen a single video where he didn't succeed, but if you read between the lines on his older videos, you notice him talking about the locks he recently learned to pick, locks he's never been able to pick, and so on. He's very good, but he's not infallible. He just doesn't show his failures.
- timhh 4y agoThe only one I've seen was the Bowley lock. But yeah I sent my unpickable lock to him and he never mentioned it. :( https://youtu.be/7hUonUE1hEY https://youtu.be/7hUonUE1hEY
- lqet 4y agoUpvoted you, because I think your design uses a very similar idea as the one posted by OP, but its design is more simple /elegant.
- eszaq 4y agoNice vid! You can print one of these for just 30 GBP? You know high end locks go for a lot more than that right? You could be printing money!
- 4y ago
- airforce1 4y agoI like this 3d printed one too: https://youtu.be/7hUonUE1hEY https://youtu.be/7hUonUE1hEY Similar principle - separating the input and testing phases, but uses an interesting binary ball bearing approach.
- vbezhenar 4y agoWhy people keep using mechanical locks when electronics is cheaper and could use unbeatable encryption?
- MattPalmer1086 4y agoWhat is the failure model when the power goes? Do you fail safe (unlocked) or fail secure (locked)?
- vbezhenar 4y agoFor safes you of course keep it locked. But provide some hidden wires to power the lock if battery died. Of course you should think about protecting electronics from something like megavolt put on those wires, but it's doable and with enough iterations all weak spots should be fixed.
- 323 4y agoYou could put the power (battery) inside the key. Like a car key fob.
- gsliepen 4y agoThe problem is that there are still mechanical bits inside electronic locks, and now you have two areas of attack: the mechanics and the electronics. And as already mentioned, they often have a mechanical lock mechanism as a backup for if the battery is dead, further increasing the attack surface. If the LPL is to be believed, a lot of electronic locks that are on the market are easier to open than Master Locks.
- MikusR 4y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-hBDjYtE1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-hBDjYtE1U
- MrThoughtful 4y agoCould one make a lock that unlocks wirelessly via radio communication? I would imagine something that gets its energy from the outside, similar to wireless charging. So the key would provide the energy. It could be Bluetooth or some proprietary technology. So you hold the key next to the lock and the two devices exchange some challenge response data that proves the key holds the secret key that is allowed to open the lock. I guess that would be unpickable. Just like a locked Android/iOS phone is unpickable. Would anything prevent this design?
- perlgeek 4y agoThings like this have been made, but there are challenges: * you have to prevent replay attacks, where somebody just records a session and replays the response * lower-power devices are usually vulnerable to side-channel attacks, for example you can limit the power supply just to threshold where it starts working, and then you can infer information about the internal state and possibly key material If you look at practical attacks against existing key fobs, you'll see that there are a lot of things that can go wrong in the field.
- mgdlbp 4y agoAre there wired electronic keys? No wireless vulnerabilities, and no picking, either. There'd be something like opto-isolated data and a separate circuit powering the key to protect the lock electronics. Edit: This concept is called a 'passive electronic lock'
- can16358p 4y agoI have zero knowledge about the topic and something in the video confuses me: In the YouTube video explanation around 2:30, when individual positions (not sure if it's the correct word: talking about the different parts of the lock's inner array moving based on the position of the key/pick) are picked, why doesn't the inner mechanism at snap back to its initial state by the spring's force when key/pick is moved out of that position? And how do they reset when lock is turned and unturned back to initial rotation state if they don't reset when individual positions are released? (Sorry if I used a terribly wrong terminology)
- Rechtsstaat 4y agoThe pins usually don't fit exactly (because they still need to be able to move up and down), meaning that you can turn the lock slightly even without the pins at the right positions. If a pin is pushed up completely, and you turn the lock slightly, the pin can get stuck in the right position. This is done with a torsion wrench, keeping torsion on the lock while trying to get the pins in the right position with picks, hooks, or rakes.
- throwaway742 4y ago>torsion wrench engineer confirmed
- bastijn 4y agoCan't wait to see lockpickinglawyer give this beauty a try. Especially as he doesn't shy away from practical exploits when regular tools don't work.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- nabla9 4y agoI just want to point out that LockPickingLawyer never touches modern high security locks. (Say Abloy Protec or similar). Abloy Classic mechanism (from 1907) seems to be the the only Abloy lock he can pick (with a special tool made for the mechanism). For some strange reason North American homes have the worst locks I have ever seen. Very little high security locks. In Finland, something like 90% of installed locks are beyond the skills of LockPickingLawyer (he could drill them of course). If you are willing to pay little more, it's relative easy to buy a high security lock (or padlock) that is never pricked even by hobbyists.
- mnot 4y agoCame for the LPL comments.
- _def 4y agoI adore how this design is approached and explained. Almost reads like a topic about software
- cvccvroomvroom 4y agoInteresting from a locksport perspective. ITRW, a criminal would defeat any mechanism by just drilling it out because it's like the farm with a heavy locked gate but no fences meme.
- chewbacha 4y agoI believe lockpicking is meant to be used to gain entry undetected instead of just gaining entry. Thus you want to limit visible damage to the device.
- mgdlbp 4y agoIn all the unpickable designs so far, various (potential) attacks are enabled by the ability to manipulate parts connected to each pin/disc/etc using tools held in the hand. So why not make a lock where the mechanism can't be touched at all? For example, one that is unlocked by inserting a key consisting of only a blade and no bow (handle) fully into a slot before operating a mechanism (separate from the lock mechanism) that, in order: 1. covers the slot through which the key was inserted, 2. slides one wall of the slot aside to reveal a bank of pins that then come into contact with the bitting of the key, 3. if the key is a match, enables further operation such as movement of a deadbolt. The mechanism is then reversed to release the key, which is ejected like a floppy disk / SIM card. Since at no point are the pins exposed to air from the outside world, it becomes impossible to actively move them or probe them for information.
- amelius 4y agoYou could insert a probe instead of a keyblade.
- ivegotnoaccount 4y agoProbably stupid question but are keys like https://cdn.cle-serrure.fr/media/catalog/product/cache/13/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/l/cle-sts-ixbola.jpg https://cdn.cle-serrure.fr/media/catalog/product/cache/13/im... that easy to pick ? I was under the impression that they were made this way exactly because they made the creation of tools harder (variation of widths of circles, code encoded on the small width of the key and not its big height...)
- kevincox 4y agoMy understanding is that they are generally harder to pick, but not in any real fundamental way. Example: https://youtu.be/verPAfwVSGg https://youtu.be/verPAfwVSGg. Although he is really struggling here which is a huge win for the lock.
- ivegotnoaccount 4y agoI see. Thanks for the link!
- petee 4y agoI was lucky to see a demo of the Million-dollar unpickable lock (with the square key) get picked live on stage at HOPE 2k3 in new york, in about 5-10min while they were giving the talk about how the company wouldn't actually reward anyone who picked it. There is no such thing as an unpickable lock, its just a matter of time till someone finds an exploit
- agumonkey 4y agoI wonder if there are discussion about non linear locking.
- tiku 4y agoI wonder how many seconds it will take on a certain Youtube channel..
- anonymousiam 4y agoHere's another video about this lock from a month ago with a lot more comments from lock aficionados. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNHFyc1oMwU&t=716s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNHFyc1oMwU&t=716s
- adrianmonk 4y ago> Each position in this lock has a bottom pin, five thin master pins, and a special top pin. In case anyone else struggled with this phrasing, it means the five master pins are thin like pancakes. I initially assumed thin like drinking straws, which was impossible to reconcile with the photo.
- IIAOPSW 4y agoThis isn't unpickable at all, its just remarkably tedious to do so. The fundamental information leak via how far you can turn before getting stuck is still there. You've just added a mechanism that temporarily locks-in the current key-state being tested, forcing an attacker to return to the initial position before inputting the next key-state. Don't get me wrong, that is a good design feature. But what you have made is still very much in pickable via the same old established principles of lockpicking. You have simply forced the standard technique to be more clumsy and error prone to execute, perhaps requiring some unique tool to measure the subtle differences that give the key away.
- flerp 4y agoWhat I have for you today …
- gumby 4y agoThis is clever to break the unlocking into two phases. I’m not a serious lock picker so probably this idea is widespread. Many years ago I imagined a lock in which the mechanical action of pushing the key all the way in would engage a lever that engaged the pins (until then they would just float and provide no information to the lock picker). Using rotation to achieve this looks simpler and more (mechanically) robust.
- f4ncyp4ntz 4y ago
- birdiesanders 4y agoFor the curious, my friend Jim picked this lock. https://youtu.be/hBKM5odMTds https://youtu.be/hBKM5odMTds
- 1970-01-01 4y agoWow just over 2 minutes! Enclave didn't take him much longer than any other unusual lock. Congrats to him!