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As water crisis worsens on Colorado River, an urgent call for states to ‘act’
- chrisseaton 4y agoThe insidious thing about rivers, is that the flow through places. Seems to create a perfect storm of detachment of cause and effect, and deniability for anyone's responsibly to act.
- micromacrofoot 4y agoYeah it’s the prisoner’s dilemma… everyone is worried that if they don’t take what they can get, they’ll be left with nothing while everyone else prospers off of their loss
- colechristensen 4y agoIt’s not really that at all. There is a broad sector of people making their living off of inappropriately inexpensive water and governments unwilling to bankrupt a sizable fraction of them.
- micromacrofoot 4y agoFits the pattern of "I don't want to give up what I can get and watch others prosper from my loss"
- BurningFrog 4y agoSystems of ownable water rights to rivers is centuries old. This is a solved problem.
- monocasa 4y agoThere's very much a system of water rights already in place on the Colorado river. The problem isn't solved.
- BurningFrog 4y agoI responded to the problem of "detachment of cause and effect, and deniability for anyone's responsibly to act". I think it's clear who is responsible for what water in the current system. That who owns what and with very uneven conditions is a disaster is to me a separate problem. But I might be splitting hairs here.
- chrisseaton 4y ago> I think it's clear who is responsible for what water in the current system. River water rights are not always 'clear'. It's a common problem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_politics_in_the_Nile_Basin#Treaties_affecting_Nile_water_use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_politics_in_the_Nile_Bas...
- colechristensen 4y agoThe problem of having legal institutions in place to regulate river usage is solved. The problem of having those legal institutions do so in a reasonable manner is not, but will be soon enough as large public water shortages will really motivate the electorate to force the issue.
- ClumsyPilot 4y agoSystem of nobles owning land and serfs on that land was centuries old. Does it fit today's needs? Was it possible to divert 100% of a massive river centuries ago? Was it needed for electricity generation? Did climate change rapidly?
- pkdpic 4y agoIf anyone needed a refresher map of the CO river like I did. I always forget it's responsible for California's wobbly butt. map --> http://media.web.britannica.com/eb-media/60/89860-050-AEBBE501.gif http://media.web.britannica.com/eb-media/60/89860-050-AEBBE5...
- bsder 4y agoThe solution is straightforward. Shut down agribusiness (don't call it farming--it's industrial scale) along the Colorado and you will have plenty of water for people and the ability to refill the reservoirs.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- usrn 4y agoIIRC they're being extremely inefficient with the water because they don't pay for it. Fix that and the problem solves itself.
- refurb 4y agoExactly. Once again the free market to the rescue. Price the water based on supply and demand and watch how much more efficient farmers get.
- formerkrogemp 4y ago> Exactly. Once again the free market to the rescue. Price the water based on supply and demand and watch how much more efficient farmers get. Ah, yes, have the government change the price and the free market will take care of everything. We need regulation and enforcement, not just a movement in decimal point and fine print for a few parties.
- usrn 4y agoRight now the price is zero because the government is giving it away for free.
- intrasight 4y agoThe price is zero because the rights holders own the water rights.
- lumost 4y agoThe southwest water rights situation is a clear case where eminent domain is required. The current situation leads to predictable disaster, eminent domain the water with a steady free market price scheme introduction. If necessary, Ban the production of high water crops in the short term to shore up supply.
- BurningFrog 4y agoIn case, like me, you had to look up "Eminent Domain": > Eminent domain refers to the power of the government to take private property and convert it into public use. The Fifth Amendment provides that the government may only exercise this power if they provide just compensation to the property owners.
- newaccount2021 4y ago
- ClumsyPilot 4y agothey arent really water rights, they are fictitious entitlements to more rainfall than exists. A contract promising something that breaks laws of phisics would be considered invalid. These rights should be too.
- oh_sigh 4y agoThat's not really how it works. No one has the right to pull more water from a river than exists in the river. You have a seniority system where the most senior gets to use as much water as they need, and then the second most senior does, and then so on. At a certain point the water runs out no one gets water at that point.
- zoom6628 4y agoAgreed. If users can’t act responsibly, and they haven’t been for years, then effectively nationalise the river. Cheaper to pay farmers to not grow high water use crops, cease meat growing like cattle, and leave the ground fallow for a decade at least.
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- rzwitserloot 4y agoFor those with a nebula subscription, there's an hour-and-a-half documentary on the Colorado River here: https://nebula.app/thecoloradoproblem https://nebula.app/thecoloradoproblem
- jmyeet 4y agoSigh (emphasis added): > “We are facing the growing reality that water supplies for agriculture, fisheries, ecosystems, industry and cities are no longer stable due to climate change,” Trujillo said. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. See Figure 2 (page 10) [1]. This is a decades-long trend of outflows increasing based on estimates of inflows that were unrealistic from a particularly wet period. In some ways this is just like the mass shooting problem: people look around for all sorts of reasons that aren't the obvious, which is the easy access to firearms. Here too people look around for any reason but the obvious: agriculture is using too much water. Agriculture is simply going to have to transition to using less water-intensive crops. We're still "exporting water" to China in the form of alfalfa [2] in addition to other water intensive crops like almonds. We don't need desalination. We don't need cities to cut back on water. agriculture will have to take the hit on this one. [1]: https://www.usbr.gov/watersmart/bsp/docs/finalreport/ColoradoRiver/CRBS_Executive_Summary_FINAL.pdf https://www.usbr.gov/watersmart/bsp/docs/finalreport/Colorad... [2]: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26124989 https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26124989
- thehappypm 4y agoClimate change is the ultimate scapegoat for everything! It’s a politicians’ dream, something nobody can solve but everyone can blame
- javajosh 4y agoYeah, I've been following some climate folk on twitter. All they do is make dire warnings and ask for money. Personally, I know climate change is very real and quite dire, but so much "climate activism" seems to only exist to exist, and not to solve anything. I mean, all I want to see is a threat model and a list of realistic policies. But all I get is, "The earth is burning, and they don't care, so DONATE NOW!" Pathetic, and disheartening.
- smt88 4y ago> so much "climate activism" seems to only exist to exist, and not to solve anything. I mean, all I want to see is a threat model and a list of realistic policies. The problem is Twitter, not the activists. Real organizations and professionals in the industry write the kinds of analysis you're asking for all the time. You literally only need to Google something climate-change related and it's all you will see. They include realistic scenarios with sensitivity analyses, and they enormous troves of data that you can download yourself if you want to see where it came from. The problem isn't that this information is missing, it's that you're looking in the wrong place (and seemingly spending not even 10 seconds of effort to find it). Here are the first five Google results for "climate change scenario": - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_scenario https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_scenario (includes citations for further reading) - https://climatescenarios.org/primer/ https://climatescenarios.org/primer/ (explains what they are, includes citations, and overlays multiple climate models onto the same graph so you can see the differences) - https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/5-possible-climate-futures-from-the-optimistic-to-the-strange https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/5-pos... (summarizes the IPCC report, which is exactly what you're describing) - https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/03/sres-en.pdf https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/03/sres-en.pdf (an actual ICC report
- bentcorner 4y agoCame across this video today, it's an interesting look at how the lake level has dropped over the years: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCBG_aVkv4s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCBG_aVkv4s
- flerchin 4y agoOf all the places to use market forces, this one is it. Users of the water should bid. The price will round to zero for consumers, but ag will have to make decisions they should have made long ago.
- rektide 4y agoThere are very very strong advocates who insist that huge colossal vast grants of water rights made a century ago cannot ever be redresses except by buying these natural holders out. Personally I find this abominable & maximally distateful. Governments like all institutions make mistakes. In my view, correctuon must be possible, and not just by paying absurd prices to cancel promises that mever could be kept. The idea that law is only valid if it never changes, always follows theough on every promise without change, seems deeply deeply fallen to me. I hate that it's come to this but these water rights holders literally cant get the vast vast vast entitlements they've held any more. There's a lot of important critical agriculture that needs some access, perhaps as you say at some market rate. These old entitlements though? They've bankrupted the water system. Awful situation which it took hitting a literal rock bottom to disrupt. Governments have been unable to respond in any way because of ancient decisions & now it's broke. Lets not prevent governance again, please.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- crikeyjoe 4y agoIt's a dam, just hold back water. Oh, and figure out how to efficiently turn ocean water into fresh water. It ain't hard. Unless you want to draw this out for 100+ years like every other crisis.
- ianai 4y agoJust maybe we need a big infrastructure project to push water around the country from where it’s not needed to where it is? Throw in some desal. People here love pointing at agriculture. Messing with farmers only has so much appeal. The US built dams and the highway system in times that were objectively worse than today. The vast majority of US GDP relies on that highway system and would have no alternative without it. Trains can’t make up for it alone.
- ultrasounder 4y agohere's an idea(FWIW) so I will put it out here. Why don't you just "link" Missippi/Missouri to the West. Seriously its been done to death in my own semi-arid, parched City of Chennai(pop 11,235,018) where-in they successfully linked Krishna(perennial river) that originates in central India, flows through the entire central Indian plains before flowing into the sea in the central Indian coast. The Krishna River project was successfully completed in 2014 and the city of Chennai has no longer water shortages. If it can be done in India, what's stopping the consortium of the western states(CA/NV/AZ/NM) working together with MS/MO to implement this. As an aside, the guy who solves this "water crisis", at scale within the next 5 years IS going to make bank. I am not seeing any one else from the Billionaire club doing this. unfortunately. sigh!.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- efields 4y agoAct. It's so simple.
- dang 4y agoRecent and related: Big water cutbacks ordered amid Colorado River shortage - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31748079 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31748079 - June 2022 (197 comments) The Multistate Battle over the Colorado River - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31388697 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31388697 - May 2022 (29 comments) U.S. takes unprecedented steps to replenish Colorado River's Lake Powell - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31316464 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31316464 - May 2022 (419 comments) Arizona’s dry future begins as Colorado River shrinks - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31139376 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31139376 - April 2022 (110 comments) See also: An unsolved math problem on the Colorado River - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30858256 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30858256 - March 2022 (61 comments) 40M People Rely on the Colorado River. It’s Drying Up Fast - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28331063 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28331063 - Aug 2021 (56 comments) Colorado River drops to record low levels, slashing Arizona’s water supply - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28212402 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28212402 - Aug 2021 (65 comments) First-ever water cuts declared for Colorado River in historic drought - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28210079 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28210079 - Aug 2021 (2 comments) The Colorado River is shrinking - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27908691 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27908691 - July 2021 (251 comments) US West prepares for possible first water shortage declaration - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26859293 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26859293 - April 2021 (56 comments) Climate change is drying up the Colorado River - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22397704 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22397704 - Feb 2020 (13 comments) ‘Climate change is water change’ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12323124 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12323124 - Aug 2016 (49 comments) Inside the Power Plant Fueling America’s Drought - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9725815 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9725815 - June 2015 (56 comments) The Disappearing Colorado River - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9583838 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9583838 - May 2015 (35 comments) The Day We Set the Colorado River Free - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7960226 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7960226 - June 2014 (30 comments)
- 8bitsrule 4y agoIf only some of that Yellowstone Lake (7700 feet) runoff could be channeled south instead of east. Aqueducts? Edit: A plan was cooked up in 1919, but nothing came of it. https://magicvalley.com/news/local/hidden-history-yellowstone-irrigation-water/article_518601b1-df3e-5b61-ba24-f09307ab16c2.html https://magicvalley.com/news/local/hidden-history-yellowston... A century later: 2021 discussion: https://wyofile.com/wyo-looks-to-store-divert-more-water-as-lake-powell-dries-up/ https://wyofile.com/wyo-looks-to-store-divert-more-water-as-...