8 ms·

Not to be super “arm chair psychologist” about this, but I always thought the whole “you deserve it if you got scammed” mentality comes from the people that bel

by 3a2d29 4y ago

Not to be super “arm chair psychologist” about this, but I always thought the whole “you deserve it if you got scammed” mentality comes from the people that believe crypto will replace all modern finance. For crypto to replace modern finance, it needs to be better in every way (so it’s a total replacement). Decentralized currency is better for some things, worse for things like preventing scams. If modern finance prevents scams better, than crypto won’t replace it in that area at least. Solution? Easy: scams aren’t a problem. Modern finance isn’t better in fixing that problem, cause it’s not a problem. Now crypto is once again better in every way.

douglaswlance 4y ago
>it needs to be better in every way It only needs to be better in enough ways to persuade enough people to adopt it such that it hits a tipping point and becomes the de facto standard.
- iJohnDoe 4y ago
  No, it needs to be better in every way. If it’s not, then what’s the fucking point? Popularity and a better replacement are two different things.
  - jacobedawson 4y ago
    Here's a new type of computer - it's exactly the same as your current computer, except it consumes 1/10th of the power... A replacement doesn't have to be better in every single facet.
    - charcircuit 4y ago
      Do you mean 10x the power?
      - filoleg 4y ago
        Unless you value inefficiency and spending a lot of money on electricity, the answer is "no", the parent comment actually meant 1/10th power.
      - SgtBastard 4y ago
        > consumes 1/10th the power. No.
  - gruez 4y ago
    >No, it needs to be better in every way. If it’s not, then what’s the fucking point? I take it that you still use a CRT monitor then? After all, modern displays (eg. IPS/VA) aren't better than CRTs in every respect (response time, motion clarity, arbitrary scaling).
- nradov 4y ago
  It's going to be tough to convince the politicians and financial system regulators. Cryptocurrency will be mostly useless for legitimate transactions until they allow using it for tax payments.
rvz 4y ago
The pro-crypto folks have created the delusion that 'crypto will replace all modern finance' and they will quickly realise that regulations will wipe out the majority of tokens and projects unable to comply with them; and a remaining few of them existing and surviving. It also means the anti-crypto folks will also realise that destroying 'all of them' is another delusion that activists like the free software foundation for example who's mission is still to remove all non-free software in existence. After 37 years, its still here and it is co-existing with some open-source software. The undeniable fact is that regulations will be put in place for crypto and only a surviving useful few will continue to co-exist with the current system which both the anti-crypto folks and pro-crypto maximalists will be disappointed in achieving their utopian ideals.
- cowtools 4y ago
  >The undeniable fact is that regulations will be put in place for crypto why is this so undeniable? I would think well-implemented cryptocurrencies would be fairly regulation resistant
  - ReptileMan 4y ago
    Because you have to convert the crypto into fiat to procure goods and services and the state will just control the border. There will be cases in which a weak state economy can become bitcoinized the same way some have become dolarizesld, but for strong states it is easy to make the border between the currencies as tight as they want it.
    - cowtools 4y ago
      >Because you have to convert the crypto into fiat to procure goods and services You do? What is the purpose of cryptocurrency if you are just going to convert back into cash the moment you use it? I think the end goal for cryptocurrency is to create a circular, P2P economy[0][1] Seems pretty difficult to regulate only some cryptocurrencies if it's already possible to anonymously and trustlessly swap between them[2] [0] https://monerica.com/ https://monerica.com/ [1] https://localmonero.co/ https://localmonero.co/ [2] https://unstoppableswap.net/ https://unstoppableswap.net/
michaelt 4y ago
To be fair, "you deserve it if you got scammed" also plays well with the anti-crypto crowd. A person pays the price of a house for NFTs of pictures of apes, gets tricked into giving them away to scammers, then buys them back from the scammers? Ha, what a fuckin' idiot.
- dubswithus 4y ago
  People get off on criticizing crypto. It makes them feel better about themselves.
  - SZJX 4y ago
    No doubt the crypto fanatics also get off on believing in the superiority and 100x growth of cryptos then.
    - dubswithus 4y ago
      You've basically described all startup culture.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
itronitron 4y ago
From what I have read, crypto folk seem to claim primarily that the decentralized currency 'not be a scam' in contrast to a currency managed by a central bank. Whether or not the currency discourages or enables scams via the currency is a secondary concern. Of course, Solend's interference seems like something 'a central bank' might do.
wyager 4y ago
> For crypto to replace modern finance, it needs to be better in every way I don't think this follows logically at all. Can you explain your thought process? (FWIW, I think that most likely the only component of finance that will be replaced by "crypto" [most likely just bitcoin] is the money and payments layer, so I probably agree with you in general.)
- 3a2d29 4y ago
  So I am thinking about how many crypto fans suggest fiat money and banks are a thing of the past. I don’t think fiat money or banks can go away unless all their functionality can be replaced by crypto and do at least as well. With finances, it’s more about preventing the bad over getting the good. As long as crypto introduces a big problem, there’s no way it becomes the primary financial tool. In fairness, I am making some assumptions here, so maybe my view of finance is very wrong. I welcome any alternative opinions.
  - junofan 4y ago
    If you look at the history of finance, all it takes is some better notion of credit. If I can get a better deal using one system over another, that’s what I’ll do. I don’t care how many millions of people are employed offering thousands of niche services by the system I don’t choose.
    - 3a2d29 4y ago
      Hasn’t the current system of banks and paper currency basically been the financial system of chose since the 1700s? I see additions to financial systems, not total replacements. Crypto is trying to replace banks and modern finance, correct?
fny 4y ago
Modern finance is much better at handling fraud. Insurance exists, and recourse also exists since anonymity is not a requirement. Decentralized finance has thus far been demonstrably worse than everything in modern finance. It's illiquid, transaction costs are higher, full of scams, buggy, and recourseless. The whole space needs to grow up fast.
- gitfan86 4y ago
  Modern finance does have a high barrier to entry. So it makes sense to try and become a big financial player any way you can and then figure out how to make it better once you are there. But that is really hard, and impossible if your efforts get cooped by scammers and day traders.
- jimmydorry 4y ago
  Try wiring someone money and see how helpful your bank will be at reversing that transaction. The vast majority of people losing money in the crypto world are the equivalent of people installing sketchy extensions in the early days of the internet that perform attacks on unsecured online banking portals. That this doesn't happen more often against banks is largely a function of the gated-ness of browsers and that targetting banking infrastructure (and national-level infrastructure for that matter) is the hot ticket that guarentees getting the undivided attention of three letter agencies.
  - klodolph 4y ago
    Most people do not wire money, they transfer money through some other mechanism that has fraud protection. For example, if you buy something on eBay and the seller sends you a brick packed in a cardboard box instead, you dispute the charge on PayPal and most likely get your money back. Or suppose that some pissed off hotel clerk decides to charge your credit card for made-up damages during your stay in a hotel. My experience is that it’s not hard to get your money back. This is why actual scams tend to involve some step where you convert money into something else—since a wire transfer or ACH transfer can be reversed or at least traced, you have scams where the patsy has to turn transfers into cash or gift cards.
alach11 4y ago
It's a form of just-world fallacy. It's comforting to think "bad things happen only to stupid people, and I'm not stupid." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis
- 3a2d29 4y ago
  Right but I am saying why they adopt that mentality. They want a “just-world” of crypto not just for feeling safe but to justify crypto’s superiority.
throw123123123 4y ago
> If modern finance prevents scams better, Its better at preventing a type of scam, but significantly worse at legal scam -> how much is an 8% inflation of the dollar on dozens of trillions of USD denominated financial instruments? And there is also plenty of equity scams that are sanctioned by government - the kind that suppresses the ability of people to invest or get funded, to give special permissions to those that play the rules, etc. The way some get bailouts at the expense of the rest. A system with a high degree of freedom and lack of oversight will have higher scams. The big question is, if people were given the choice to participate in both systems, which one will thrive?
- chii 4y ago
  > legal scam ... calling inflation a legal scam is borderline on the conspiracy fence. > if people were given the choice to participate in both systems, which one will thrive? Well, crypto has been around for about 10 years. There's been plenty of choice, and yet what do you see today?
  - throw123123123 4y ago
    > conspiracy fence. What do you mean conspiracy? It's the official purpose of the Fed to maintain inflation low, it has failed, it has cost a devaluation of the assets of everyone holding dollars or dollar-linked financial instruments, and it's gone significantly down in value. > Well, crypto has been around for about 10 years. There's been plenty of choice, and yet what do you see today? A thriving crypto market big enough to be acknowledged as a threat by the head of the federal reserve, the head of the central european bank, and several other high ranking officials.
DougMellon 4y ago
Is it truly decentralized when it’s so reliant on exchanges and wallets that are abstracted away from the chains - often through third party layers akin to Infura?
cyanydeez 4y ago
Crypto doesn't exist without centralization. Sorry.

by 3a2d29 4y ago

douglaswlance 4y ago

>it needs to be better in every way It only needs to be better in enough ways to persuade enough people to adopt it such that it hits a tipping point and becomes the de facto standard.

iJohnDoe 4y ago
No, it needs to be better in every way. If it’s not, then what’s the fucking point? Popularity and a better replacement are two different things.
- jacobedawson 4y ago
  Here's a new type of computer - it's exactly the same as your current computer, except it consumes 1/10th of the power... A replacement doesn't have to be better in every single facet.
  - charcircuit 4y ago
    Do you mean 10x the power?
    - filoleg 4y ago
      Unless you value inefficiency and spending a lot of money on electricity, the answer is "no", the parent comment actually meant 1/10th power.
    - SgtBastard 4y ago
      > consumes 1/10th the power. No.
- gruez 4y ago
  >No, it needs to be better in every way. If it’s not, then what’s the fucking point? I take it that you still use a CRT monitor then? After all, modern displays (eg. IPS/VA) aren't better than CRTs in every respect (response time, motion clarity, arbitrary scaling).
nradov 4y ago
It's going to be tough to convince the politicians and financial system regulators. Cryptocurrency will be mostly useless for legitimate transactions until they allow using it for tax payments.

rvz 4y ago

The pro-crypto folks have created the delusion that 'crypto will replace all modern finance' and they will quickly realise that regulations will wipe out the majority of tokens and projects unable to comply with them; and a remaining few of them existing and surviving. It also means the anti-crypto folks will also realise that destroying 'all of them' is another delusion that activists like the free software foundation for example who's mission is still to remove all non-free software in existence. After 37 years, its still here and it is co-existing with some open-source software. The undeniable fact is that regulations will be put in place for crypto and only a surviving useful few will continue to co-exist with the current system which both the anti-crypto folks and pro-crypto maximalists will be disappointed in achieving their utopian ideals.

cowtools 4y ago
>The undeniable fact is that regulations will be put in place for crypto why is this so undeniable? I would think well-implemented cryptocurrencies would be fairly regulation resistant
- ReptileMan 4y ago
  Because you have to convert the crypto into fiat to procure goods and services and the state will just control the border. There will be cases in which a weak state economy can become bitcoinized the same way some have become dolarizesld, but for strong states it is easy to make the border between the currencies as tight as they want it.
  - cowtools 4y ago
    >Because you have to convert the crypto into fiat to procure goods and services You do? What is the purpose of cryptocurrency if you are just going to convert back into cash the moment you use it? I think the end goal for cryptocurrency is to create a circular, P2P economy[0][1] Seems pretty difficult to regulate only some cryptocurrencies if it's already possible to anonymously and trustlessly swap between them[2] [0] https://monerica.com/ https://monerica.com/ [1] https://localmonero.co/ https://localmonero.co/ [2] https://unstoppableswap.net/ https://unstoppableswap.net/

michaelt 4y ago

To be fair, "you deserve it if you got scammed" also plays well with the anti-crypto crowd. A person pays the price of a house for NFTs of pictures of apes, gets tricked into giving them away to scammers, then buys them back from the scammers? Ha, what a fuckin' idiot.

dubswithus 4y ago
People get off on criticizing crypto. It makes them feel better about themselves.
- SZJX 4y ago
  No doubt the crypto fanatics also get off on believing in the superiority and 100x growth of cryptos then.
  - dubswithus 4y ago
    You've basically described all startup culture.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

itronitron 4y ago

From what I have read, crypto folk seem to claim primarily that the decentralized currency 'not be a scam' in contrast to a currency managed by a central bank. Whether or not the currency discourages or enables scams via the currency is a secondary concern. Of course, Solend's interference seems like something 'a central bank' might do.

wyager 4y ago

> For crypto to replace modern finance, it needs to be better in every way I don't think this follows logically at all. Can you explain your thought process? (FWIW, I think that most likely the only component of finance that will be replaced by "crypto" [most likely just bitcoin] is the money and payments layer, so I probably agree with you in general.)

3a2d29 4y ago
So I am thinking about how many crypto fans suggest fiat money and banks are a thing of the past. I don’t think fiat money or banks can go away unless all their functionality can be replaced by crypto and do at least as well. With finances, it’s more about preventing the bad over getting the good. As long as crypto introduces a big problem, there’s no way it becomes the primary financial tool. In fairness, I am making some assumptions here, so maybe my view of finance is very wrong. I welcome any alternative opinions.
- junofan 4y ago
  If you look at the history of finance, all it takes is some better notion of credit. If I can get a better deal using one system over another, that’s what I’ll do. I don’t care how many millions of people are employed offering thousands of niche services by the system I don’t choose.
  - 3a2d29 4y ago
    Hasn’t the current system of banks and paper currency basically been the financial system of chose since the 1700s? I see additions to financial systems, not total replacements. Crypto is trying to replace banks and modern finance, correct?

fny 4y ago

Modern finance is much better at handling fraud. Insurance exists, and recourse also exists since anonymity is not a requirement. Decentralized finance has thus far been demonstrably worse than everything in modern finance. It's illiquid, transaction costs are higher, full of scams, buggy, and recourseless. The whole space needs to grow up fast.

gitfan86 4y ago
Modern finance does have a high barrier to entry. So it makes sense to try and become a big financial player any way you can and then figure out how to make it better once you are there. But that is really hard, and impossible if your efforts get cooped by scammers and day traders.
jimmydorry 4y ago
Try wiring someone money and see how helpful your bank will be at reversing that transaction. The vast majority of people losing money in the crypto world are the equivalent of people installing sketchy extensions in the early days of the internet that perform attacks on unsecured online banking portals. That this doesn't happen more often against banks is largely a function of the gated-ness of browsers and that targetting banking infrastructure (and national-level infrastructure for that matter) is the hot ticket that guarentees getting the undivided attention of three letter agencies.
- klodolph 4y ago
  Most people do not wire money, they transfer money through some other mechanism that has fraud protection. For example, if you buy something on eBay and the seller sends you a brick packed in a cardboard box instead, you dispute the charge on PayPal and most likely get your money back. Or suppose that some pissed off hotel clerk decides to charge your credit card for made-up damages during your stay in a hotel. My experience is that it’s not hard to get your money back. This is why actual scams tend to involve some step where you convert money into something else—since a wire transfer or ACH transfer can be reversed or at least traced, you have scams where the patsy has to turn transfers into cash or gift cards.

alach11 4y ago

It's a form of just-world fallacy. It's comforting to think "bad things happen only to stupid people, and I'm not stupid." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis

3a2d29 4y ago
Right but I am saying why they adopt that mentality. They want a “just-world” of crypto not just for feeling safe but to justify crypto’s superiority.

throw123123123 4y ago

> If modern finance prevents scams better, Its better at preventing a type of scam, but significantly worse at legal scam -> how much is an 8% inflation of the dollar on dozens of trillions of USD denominated financial instruments? And there is also plenty of equity scams that are sanctioned by government - the kind that suppresses the ability of people to invest or get funded, to give special permissions to those that play the rules, etc. The way some get bailouts at the expense of the rest. A system with a high degree of freedom and lack of oversight will have higher scams. The big question is, if people were given the choice to participate in both systems, which one will thrive?

chii 4y ago
> legal scam ... calling inflation a legal scam is borderline on the conspiracy fence. > if people were given the choice to participate in both systems, which one will thrive? Well, crypto has been around for about 10 years. There's been plenty of choice, and yet what do you see today?
- throw123123123 4y ago
  > conspiracy fence. What do you mean conspiracy? It's the official purpose of the Fed to maintain inflation low, it has failed, it has cost a devaluation of the assets of everyone holding dollars or dollar-linked financial instruments, and it's gone significantly down in value. > Well, crypto has been around for about 10 years. There's been plenty of choice, and yet what do you see today? A thriving crypto market big enough to be acknowledged as a threat by the head of the federal reserve, the head of the central european bank, and several other high ranking officials.

DougMellon 4y ago

Is it truly decentralized when it’s so reliant on exchanges and wallets that are abstracted away from the chains - often through third party layers akin to Infura?

cyanydeez 4y ago

Crypto doesn't exist without centralization. Sorry.