13 ms·

Dave Winer: Why I stand up for Stallman

423 points by guan 15y ago

Uchikoma 15y ago
OT: Is there a way to remove all my comments from HN? I would like to give up.
- tokenadult 15y ago
  Is there a way to remove all my comments from HN? I would like to give up. Don't you see a delete link next to your recent posts? There is a time limit on how long you can delete or edit your posts, but you should still be within that limit for your most recent posts, all of which you can find if you look at the "threads" link at the top of the page when you are logged in.
  - Uchikoma 15y ago
    Thanks, I've removed all my recent posts. Is there any way of removing all posts and all profile data?
    - hugh3 15y ago
      Emailing pg and asking nicely seems to be the only solution.
wyclif 15y ago
It is a truth universally acknowledged, that any blog post by Dave Winer must reference how he "blazed a trail" or some variation thereof.
- donohoe 15y ago
  Did you know he invented RSS, and its the most relevant thing on the web today? You'd never guess. I met Dave a few times back when I was with the tImes though I doubt he remembers me. He's nice enough in person but he has his own personal reality distortion field. I had to stop following him in Google Reader and Twitter to stay sane.
  - wyclif 15y ago
    That "I invented RSS" line is utter bullshit of the highest order. Ramanathan V. Guha and Dan Libby of Netscape created it back in 1999. Do not pass go, do not drink the Kool-aid.
    - wmf 15y ago
      Of course, Netscape's initial version of RSS sucked and didn't get much traction until Winer got involved. The history of RSS isn't a simple thing.
      - wyclif 15y ago
        Except I wasn't talking about traction or the simplicity of history, but the assertion that Winer "invented" RSS, which is patently false.
        deleted 15y ago
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        jacob_riis 15y ago
        Citation?
    - joshu 15y ago
      btw Guha prefers to be called Guha...
    - BrandonM 15y ago
      I'm pretty sure donohoe was being sarcastic. Maybe someday we'll learn that sarcasm is rarely an insightful addition to a discussion.
      - donohoe 15y ago
        Yes, I was being sarcastic in the first instance. I'm Irish, without sarcasm I'd have nothing.
- watmough 15y ago
  This comment contributes nothing to the discussion. Dave's gone ahead and written a stand-out post that reflects upon bullying in general, and in tech in particular. Why not take the reasonable viewpoint that whilst we might not agree with everything RMS does or says, he deserves enormous respect for dedicating his life to a quest that has benefited most of us in one way or another.
  - wyclif 15y ago
    Actually, I'm kind of burned out on the "bullying" meme. But the point of my comment had nothing to do with RMS, it had to do with Dave's level of self-aggrandizement. That some people on HN buy the "I invented RSS" lie is visible upstream.
    - danilocampos 15y ago
      I'm with you. Winer is exhausting because he spends so much time trying to make sure his reader understands how impressive he is. It gets dull.
      - phillmv 15y ago
        Unlike the circle jerk that goes on in this forum, right?
        phillmv 15y ago
        (Are you instilling an entrepreneurial spirit in your children?)
    - hvs 15y ago
      I find it disturbing that you thinking bullying is a "meme."
  - ajscherer 15y ago
    I disagree. This comment supports Dave's argument about as well as any comment I could imagine reading.
- brlewis 15y ago
  Dave is a good example for HN, where there's too much aversion to self-promotion. See also patio11's recent post touching on the value (or lack thereof) of modesty: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3170766 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3170766 FYI, when you invoke "truth universally acknowledged", people familiar with that phrase's origin will expect it to be followed by a bad assumption. See http://www.paulgraham.com/iflisp.html http://www.paulgraham.com/iflisp.html
  - sp332 15y ago
    How does "my ideas should be considered on their merits" jibe with major self-promotion?
    - brlewis 15y ago
      Where did I say that everything Dave says is major self-promotion?
- raganwald 15y ago
  This comment reminds me of bikeshedding. There was this whole post, full of emotion and anger and sadness and conflict, written about people and behaviour and social ostracism, and you climbed onto your soapbox to say THAT? I can’t help but feel that this is not your best work. I have no idea whether it’s true or not, but Dave’s personality is irrelevant to the argument, which is about online communities and cyber-bullying. Unless, perhaps, you are trying to demonstrate how it works? Have I failed to catch the subtle way you demonstrate that if someone is disliked for something, no matter what they say and how important it is, people will focus on why they dislike that person?
  - michaelchisari 15y ago
    you climbed onto your soapbox to say THAT? In Critical Theory discussions, it's called "derailing", and once you have a name for it, it becomes even more frustrating. Notice how now, we're not discussing the original ideas of the post, but are completely pushed into a tangential discussion. At least HN has threaded discussions. When it happens in flat discussions like Facebook, it's an order of magnitude more annoying.
  - scott_s 15y ago
    So, here's the problem I have: I agree with you. But I also had the same reaction the parent did. It's an irrational, unfair response, but I am so tired of reading Winer's writing that I find I'm not capable of considering his points. I even know this about myself, yet I still read the comments here, then I still read his post. Short version: yes it's unfair, but yes, in this case, I'm unable to separate the message from the messenger.
    - raganwald 15y ago
      I empathize with you. While I read Dave’s words without trouble, I confess that I struggle with Eric Raymond’s words for reasons unrelated to the words themselves. It’s not easy for me to walk my talk, so I am loathe to criticize you for being just like me.
      - 15y ago
- sull 15y ago
  the man routinely clarifies his involvements or lack thereof in the stuff that he is given credit for by others or by he himself. bottom line, he has been involved in important Internet endeavors and prior art. so you better believe that he will speak of it when applicable. i see faults in DW's personality and technical opinions and on occasion will point them out (as a nobody in his world). but i am completely willing to read his words and observe his works despite any of the shortcomings. i know my own faults and would hope that those faults would not deter other peoples willingness to read or listen to me when i have something to say.
davidhansen 15y ago
Could someone more knowledgeable about internet community infighting explain what the hell Winer is talking about when he makes vague reference to being ostracized, persecuted, etc? Was there some epic battle that is so well-known that Winer doesn't feel the need to explain or even give footnotes for?
- jleader 15y ago
  I wasn't involved at the time, but what I've gathered over the years is that the early history of blogging and rss involved competing standards and personal and technical rivalries. My understanding is that Winer is an ardent self-promoter, quite opinionated, and rubs some people strongly the wrong way. He's created a bunch of cool and interesting stuff, and proudly claims credit for stuff some people don't think he deserves credit for. I don't really know who's right and who's wrong, I suspect there's at least a little fault on all sides. I think if Winer had explained or given footnotes, it would have distracted from the point of what I thought was a very powerful essay, but then I agree with him about Stallman.
  - lkrubner 15y ago
    Dave Winer can claim credit only for the 2.0 version of RSS. The earliest version of RSS was invented by Dan Libby at Netscape. In 2006 I wrote up a thorough overview of the history of RSS up to that point: http://www.teamlalala.com/blog/2006/10/24/rss-has-been-damage-by-in-fighting-among-those-who-have-developed-it/ http://www.teamlalala.com/blog/2006/10/24/rss-has-been-damag...
    - brlewis 15y ago
      Wikipedia gives him credit for part of 0.91: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_web_syndication_technology#RSS_creation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_web_syndication_tech...
    - sounds 15y ago
      Nevertheless, Winer's point about Stallman is valid and I personally agree with him. I don't care who you are, or where you're from. Even if "I disapprove of what you say, ... I will defend to the death your right to say it" (- Voltaire? no primary source) The internet would be a lot smaller and less interesting if we only let "normal" people in!
parfe 15y ago
From another post of his: "About open source and whether I have the standing to discuss it, I've made a huge contribution to open source with the 2004 release of Frontier under the GPL. I was releasing code long before the terms free software or open source existed. Even so, as you'll see, I don't believe in the boundaries, I think ideas should freely cross the boundaries, and they do." http://scripting.com/stories/2008/08/10/howViralIsGpl.html#p3 http://scripting.com/stories/2008/08/10/howViralIsGpl.html#p... I had no idea what substantial contribution this guy provided. Turns out his company, UserLand, eventually GPL'd a content management system called Frontier http://frontierkernel.org/ http://frontierkernel.org/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UserLand_Software#Frontier http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UserLand_Software#Frontier While I personally have not heard of it, the author believes quite strongly in its importance.
- drumdance 15y ago
  Dave Winer is widely regarded to have invented both RSS and blogging.
  - deleted 15y ago
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    - drumdance 15y ago
      The article you link to clearly says that RSS used some of Winer's scriptingNews syndication format.
      - deleted 15y ago
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  - parfe 15y ago
    After seeing some other comments I went and looked into it. It seems Winer is the one who thinks he invented RSS. Reality seems to say multiple competing XML formats for content syndication existed around the same time. Someone took some features of Winer's format and combined it with an existing one and called it RSS. Shrug And on inventing blogging I read up thanks to wiki [1], as usual, and lo and behold! The claim his blog is one of the oldest is sourced! To an interview in which he claims it about his own blog, and then discounts it a sentence later. I have no opinion on if this guy actually influenced as much of tech history as he seems to think, but history has either been very unkind to him, or he promotes himself beyond the facts. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blogging http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blogging [2] http://news.cnet.com/2008-1082-985714.html http://news.cnet.com/2008-1082-985714.html
dustinupdyke 15y ago
If you agree with Schopenhauer on "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." and if you accept that the space Dave operates is populated by hackers, entrepreneurs and lots of other people looking for the next big thing, then his point is particularly poignant: > Okay, you say it's weird. And I say weird is good. People who show originality openly, without fear, are people I admire. And people I stand up for. Well put Dave. I agree. edit: Fixed grammatical error.
- estel 15y ago
  The way that that quote gets used doesn't make sense to me. Even given that all truth does pass through those three stages, that doesn't mean that something passing through the first two stages is especially likely to be ever accepted as self-evident.
  - lyso 15y ago
    Right. They laughed at Einstein... But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
    - dustinupdyke 15y ago
      Both were quite successful at doing their own thing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bozo_the_Clown http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bozo_the_Clown
  - dustinupdyke 15y ago
    That is perspective. Used in the context of looking forward, its just positive reinforcement.
- nasmorn 15y ago
  I would say either we all demand parrots for our business trip in tge future or Schopenhauer lost a lot of credibility here.
- ugh 15y ago
Causification 15y ago
It is a very common flaw in reasoning that one party assumes that the opposition disagrees because they are scared or secretly agree. Atheists are all secretly christians, homophobes are all secretly gay, liberals are scared of "the truth." People who mock Stallman for taking his shoe off and eating things he picked off his foot in the middle of a presentation are not terrified of him shattering their paradigm. They just think it's gross.
- icebraining 15y ago
  But people who use it as if it somehow disproves his position on the ethics of software are stupid or dishonest. Simple as that.
  - Herring 15y ago
    Stallman is a walking PR nightmare, and you're getting mad at human nature?? I don't believe this. 99.9% of humans won't take you seriously if you eat your toejam. That's normal. Stallman is nearly the worst thing to happen to the FSF. He should sit back & let Eben Moglen do the talking.
    - icebraining 15y ago
      Well, that's a bit of a false dichotomy. Disliking prejudice doesn't mean I don't wish RMS was a better spokesperson. But I wasn't really taking about the people who take him less seriously, but those who use that as an argument in a discussion. The former is a flaw (from which I suffer too), but the latter is much worse.
  - Causification 15y ago
    Except that kottke didn't say anything at all about Stallman's ethics, position on software, or the FSF. He just said it was ridiculous for him to put two paragraphs about parrots in his rider. Simple as that.
    - icebraining 15y ago
kevinalexbrown 15y ago
I'm not sure Stallman needs "standing up for." The Kottke post from Winer had a quote from Stallman's rider, and that's about it. http://kottke.org/11/10/richard-stallmans-rider http://kottke.org/11/10/richard-stallmans-rider . Some people think Stallman's weird, but I'm certain he's decided his beliefs and attitudes are worth it. He made that decision on his own, as his own person, and I'm not sure he needs Winer to come save him from the big bad bullies.
- blahedo 15y ago
  That's the part that puzzled me. The comment was only that the parrot clause was "up there with" other extremely specific rider clauses. And the Van Halen clause is these days pretty widely known as an interesting system hack rather than mere eccentricity or weirdness. The Kottke post didn't come across to me as mocking at all, actually. (Unless you see "crazy" as exclusively of negative valence, I suppose.)
  - zem 15y ago
    could you explain to me why you think stallman's parrot clause is crazy, or even overly specific? all he's saying is it would be nice if there were a friendly parrot he could see. the specific parts are telling people why they should not go out of their way to buy a parrot simply to make him happy.
raganwald 15y ago
I also stand up for Stallman: http://raganwald.posterous.com/i-also-stand-up-for-stallman http://raganwald.posterous.com/i-also-stand-up-for-stallman
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  - raganwald 15y ago
    This is what we call an "Ad Hominem Tu Quoque.” How does it validate or invalidate his words?
    - deleted 15y ago
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      - caf 15y ago
        raganwald is agreeing with Dave Winer in arguing against the personal ridiculing of RMS. The validity of this argument does not hinge on whether Dave Winer is being hypocritical in making it or not; one can be a hypocrite and still be correct. In other words, if you want to argue against raganwald and Dave Winer, that RMS should be ridiculed, you need to come up with something that logically supports that, not just assert "Dave Winer is a bully also". This assertion does not advance your argument.
      - deleted 15y ago
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      - ender7 15y ago
        http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Ad+Hominem+Tu+Quoque http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Ad+Hominem+Tu+Quoque [edit] This relates to your point because you are literally one click away from knowing the definition of such phrases. It is no great burden to ask that you occasionally Google phrases that people use, especially when there is not better way of saying it.
jrockway 15y ago
I also stand up for Stallman. Yes, people think he is a weird guy. But we are all weird, and he's weird and has changed the world for the better. I don't see what there is to hate. People worry that he might not be the best interface between Free Software and the rest of the world (because it's hard to relate to him), but who cares? If you can do a better job, do it. The only thing that's bad for the Free Software movement is worrying about who the leader is. It's you. Now get back to work and make us some awesome software.
- armandososa 15y ago
  Why do people from the U.S. use the word "hate" so lightly?
  - jrockway 15y ago
    What makes you think I'm from the US?
    - deleted 15y ago
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    - buro9 15y ago
      Your github? https://github.com/jrockway/ https://github.com/jrockway/ says you're in Chicago, IL Analysis of your comments suggests non-European use of English. "Strong male" whereas European English is usually classified as "Weak male". And on your Google Places page you list only Chicago as places that you've lived. https://plus.google.com/u/1/105337359554006968707/about https://plus.google.com/u/1/105337359554006968707/about Unless you're trying really hard to consistently give a false impression, I'd bet you were just playing devil's advocate there as you do indeed appear to be from the US. Oh, and your domain is .us... but we all know that's a weak indicator.
  - deleted 15y ago
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  - chollida1 15y ago
miked 15y ago
Googling: "dave winer" jerk --> 75,700 "dave winer" ass --> 248,000 "dave winer" asshole --> 9,440 For some strange reason, I find myself not interested in reading Dave Winer denouncing others for "bullying", all the while reminding you, sotto voce, of how wonderful Dave Winer is.
- neurobashing 15y ago
  There used to be a "Winer number", which was the number of times Winer had gone apeshit on you, typically in response to an innocuous comment.
- funkah 15y ago
  "miked" ass --> About 769,000 results. What is the point of this, exactly?
funkah 15y ago
Kottke called Stallman's rider (the whole thing) "crazy and amazing". Then he quoted the parrot thing, probably because it tickled his fancy. I don't agree that that constitutes "ridicule", in Winer's words.
- jakejake 15y ago
  I feel like those guys are projecting their own issues onto the situation. I didn't sense any malice in Kottke's post and certainly nothing that I would compare to high-school bullying.
- yawn 15y ago
  That's how I read it, too. This whole thing is overblown and Kottke is being used as an excuse for some drama.
- gojomo 15y ago
  Indeed – Kottke didn't indicate shunning-disapproval or even necessarily 'ridicule' (as both Winer and others downthread summarize Kottke). Kottke's chosen words aren't always meant negatively. ("Here's to the crazy ones...") In Kottke's context, he's given a fair description: the rider is, objectively, quite peculiar and illuminating about Stallman's intense priorities. But whether a reader takes that as a reason to shun and ostracize Stallman, as with disrespectful 'ridicule', is up to the reader. Do we think Kottke would counsel Stallman, if we were in some bizarro universe where Stallman sought others' advice, not to include those two paragraphs, because they're too ridiculous? I think it's equally likely Kottke would chuckle and say, "the bit about the parrots is crazy and brilliant, better even than the Van Halen thing... move it up higher!" Read Stallman charitably. Read Kottke charitably. Read everyone charitably.
  - nmcfarl 15y ago
    > Read Stallman charitably. Read Kottke charitably. Read everyone charitably This! Always, every day. You might make the world a little bit better in the process, but you will make your life a good bit less stressful, just by being a bit more charitable, a bit less suspicious.
Tharkun 15y ago
RMS is not a "weird guy", he's an obnoxious dickhead. If you disagree, you haven't been in a room with him for longer than 5 minutes. Sure, he's made very important contributions to FOSS, but -- I invoke Godwin's Law! -- Hitler made many important contributions as well, but I don't see many people standing up for him.
- muhfuhkuh 15y ago
  Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison, William Faulkner, Van Gogh, JD Salinger, Denzel Washington. I've heard these guys are all massive assholes. Fortunately, I can still derive massive entertainment value and/or some form of personal or professional amelioration from their creativity. Same with Stallman. I use emacs every day, and GCC and GLIBC is the heart of just about every serious developer's toolkit. The man's life is his affair; look to his work. I didn't like Hitler's work or its underlying philosophy, let alone the man.
- factorizer 15y ago
  Wow. You know what they say: never go full retard. you just went.
- Karunamon 15y ago
  Why is this guy getting downvoted? People using the V arrow for disagree? Premise: RMS is an odious $pejorative .. I gotta agree with that. The man has done and continues to do good work, but he's still a complete unreasonable nutter. Being a nice likeable guy who accomplishes nothing or being a complete wad of dick who does all the things doesn't negate the other side of that balance.
hugh3 15y ago
Some folks miss the point. We only make fun of Stallman in an attempt to change his behaviour in a way that benefits both him and others. For instance, rms smells bad. If he could be persuaded to smell less bad, then everybody would benefit. Ridicule is a valuable social mechanism for giving negative feedback to those who behave inappropriately. For those who say "but can't we give this feedback in a non-hurtful way?", the answer is no, for the same reason that your brain can't make pain non-painful -- some people are too damn stubborn to listen to non-painful feedback. Here is a video of Richard Stallman, in the middle of a talk, eating something he's just picked off his foot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ
- raganwald 15y ago
  Your argument reminds me—painfully—of arguments in favour of physical bullying. “Hey, a few clouts to the head and he’ll get the idea.” I don’t hit my children, no matter how stubborn they are.
  - terrywilcox 15y ago
    Straw man. Edit: I'm not saying that the original argument is correct, as it really isn't, but your response was a straw man.
    - hugh3 15y ago
      Indeed. My original comment may have been somewhat over the top, but I would still argue that yes, a bit of ridicule can sometimes do someone good. That's a very long way from saying anything about violence.
      - meric 15y ago
        You are trying to use "a bit of ridicule" to change rms's personal habits, then saying "That's a very long way from saying anything about violence". I fail to see how this contributes to anything.
- deleted 15y ago
kenjackson 15y ago
I stand against Stallman. I'm no bully. I don't personally know or insult him. But I do disagree with his position on software (I agree with some of what he says, but I think we end up falling in opposing corners nevertheless). But standing against someone and pointing out why you disagree I think is quite in the spirit of Stallman himself. With that said, I don't know the extent of the abuse that Stallman has received from others, but its not obvious to an outsider what the abuse is. Some mocking over a rider? You should hear the abuse I've gotten over some of my haircuts. I will say that while I disagree with RMS I do think his influence has been large and positive for most of his career. I don't think he's a particularly good spokesperson, but he makes up for it in other ways. I've even listed RMS as one I think is on the short list of potential Turing Award winners (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2305496 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2305496). I stand against Stallman, but I'm glad he's there to stand against.
- shareme 15y ago
  actually RMS is an excellent spokesperson which is why the movement is so successful.
  - lightyrs 15y ago
    In a world of Apple, Google, Microsoft, and Open Source, I wonder if FSM is actually successful. Sure it's had successes, but success-ful, I would hesitate to call it. Also, I'm pretty sure the original commenter was implying that RMS is a bad spokesman because he is so polarizing/unattractive (idealogically).
    - jrockway 15y ago
      How much did it cost you to learn to program? Before Free Software, it would have been a lot. Now you can learn and create amazing software without spending any money. And there is a culture of sharing that's made software one of the most successful fields to date.
      - 15y ago
parfe 15y ago
tl;dr summary 1) I was a popular guy in school. Ridiculously popular. 2) Although I was popular (even if I didn't hang out with the other kids), I am still a good guy because I hung around the weird kid in school. He still acted weird, but I was a good guy so I stuck it out. 3) Did I mention he never stopped being weird? Did I mention I was popular even though I didn't hang out with all the other people? 4) I was popular in high school so I fully expected to be popular on the Internet. I blazed a path and these people didn't even care, or like me! Editors note: Note the lack of introspection. Perhaps they don't like you despite the path you blazed (or claim to have blazed)? 5) I released my life's work under the GPL and the internet ganged up on me for it. Even strangers in real life picked on me. Why aren't I still popular? 6) Kottle highlighted a single odd entry in RMS's rider which made me ill. I'll defend RMS by saying "YEAH, so he's weird!" errata: Winer went to a high school which had recess.
- maigret 15y ago
  Your summary has a very sarcastic tone, just saying.
- ajross 15y ago
  This is so over the top that I can't decide if it's a deliberate troll or not. But if you really think this kind of ridicule and lashing out is an appropriate response to a blog post about needless ridicule then... well, I don't know. Shame on you I guess. This is just sad.
  - jrockway 15y ago
    Not every application of the written word needs to be documenting an event or opinion. This post isn't a good summary of what Winer wrote. It is, however, good reading. Winer can be a little annoying from time to time. This post harps on that particular aspect of Winer without saying, "you know, Dave Winer annoys me." If you read through it, you laugh a bit, and think "yeah, this post sounds like it's about RMS but it's really about Winer", and that's interesting insight. parfe could have said exactly that, but why use one line to say what you literally mean when you can convey that message and entertain at the same time?
scott_s 15y ago
I was actually heartened by the fact that most of the posts I read on HN about Stallman's rider had the same reaction I did: hey, all that sounds pretty reasonable.
dhugiaskmak 15y ago
Anyway, much later in life, I was treated like Sam I had a hard time taking his post seriously after this. As someone who was the "weird kid" growing up this sentence is so insulting, and so far past egotistical, that I'm not even sure there's a word capable of describing it. It's like someone trying to sympathize with a famine victim by complaining that they missed lunch yesterday.
frou_dh 15y ago
John Gruber is even more guilty of this. Parrot / breakfast point and laugh: http://daringfireball.net/linked/2011/10/26/rms http://daringfireball.net/linked/2011/10/26/rms Linking to a site set up purely to mock Stallman: http://daringfireball.net/linked/2011/10/27/stallman-dialogues http://daringfireball.net/linked/2011/10/27/stallman-dialogu... The latest episode of his podcast, about Stallman, is called "They Had to Burn the Sheets" (I haven't listened to it, but going by the title I think it's a safe assumption that it continues the theme): http://daringfireball.net/linked/2011/10/27/the-talk-show-64 http://daringfireball.net/linked/2011/10/27/the-talk-show-64
- funkah 15y ago
  Gruber is so openly contemptuous of Stallman that I find it hard to believe that Winer is focusing on Kottke instead. In the episode of the Talk Show you linked to, Gruber's co-host Dan Benjamin keeps trying to rein Gruber in from being unfair to Stallman. He shuts down Gruber from talking about the infamous foot-eating incident on multiple occasions. And yes, the title is indeed about Stallman; Gruber repeats some anecdotes he heard about Stallman's hygeine. He makes Kottke look downright generous. If you read what Winer is saying with Gruber in mind, it makes sense. But Kottke's entry strikes me as much more innocuous than Winer is making it out to be.
  - there 15y ago
    maybe, like many of us, winer doesn't pay attention to gruber.
    - pandeiro 15y ago
      who?
    - funkah 15y ago
      In that case he should stop paying attention to Kottke too, problem solved.
      - 15y ago
jsz0 15y ago
And if you disagree, have the self-respect to express it with dignity. Someone should tell that to Stallman who often proclaims people who disagree with him are evil.
deleted 15y ago
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Lagged2Death 15y ago
I think Winer misunderstands Kottke's feelings about Van Halen. There's a sentence you didn't think you'd read today. But seriously.
monochromatic 15y ago
Did Kottke even read the link about the Van Halen brown M&M thing? Because it wasn't some crazy whim; it had a perfectly reasonable justification. Saying that Stallman's parrot thing is "right up there" with the brown M&Ms doesn't make sense, if you're trying to laugh at Stallman.
- gokhan 15y ago
  Anil Dash, in comments section of Winer's post, makes the same mistake of having an idea withouth having enough knowledge: > ... using that power to cow conference organizers and academics into submission to an arbitrary set of whims, the same as a rock star refusing to eat certain colors of M&Ms ... http://scripting.com/stories/2011/10/31/whyIStandUpForStallman.html#comment-352247635 http://scripting.com/stories/2011/10/31/whyIStandUpForStallm...
  - benatkin 15y ago
    There is so much wrong with Anil Dash's long-winded comment. The first thing he gets wrong is expecting Stallman to handle traveling around for his cause just as well as others have done. Wrong. The personality traits from which people find themselves leading a cause are not the same ones which make people great traveling guests. Another big thing he gets wrong is understating GNU's role in Free Software Operating Systems. After reading that I'm convinced that he doesn't understand how important development tools are when creating a new platform. FWIW I don't always say "GNU/Linux". I usually say "Linux". I certainly am not opposed to saying "GNU/Linux", however. I wish more people, Anil included, understood the pivotal role the GNU toolchain provided, but I don't think saying "GNU/Linux" is the best way.
- wmf 15y ago
  The mythical interpretation of the brown M&Ms as signifying capricious demands made by popular people has overtaken the original meaning, so Kottke et al. should be understood as referring to that myth.
  - monochromatic 15y ago
rcade 15y ago
Richard Stallman is one of my heroes in tech. He's a deeply fascinating and amazingly obstinate thinker who should be Walter Isaacson's next book project. But does he really need anyone's help fending off bullies? A guy who described Steve Jobs as being guilty of "evil" after his death would eat bullies for breakfast. If he ate breakfast. Which he doesn't. And don't ask him why.
dreww 15y ago
i guess the advanced high school was so advanced they still had recess...
- ugh 15y ago
  So, uhm, what’s this meme all about? It has been mentioned here twice. What’s recess got to do with how good a school is? I’m from Germany and I have never heard anyone suggest that breaks are a bad thing. This seems completely bizarre to me.
  - nknight 15y ago
    "Recess" has rather specific connotations in American English. It is not simply another word for "break". It connotes a supervised, semi-structured playtime for young children, generally outdoors, in the presence of teachers. By the time one hits high school (9th grade) in the US, such things do not occur. You may have free time between classes, but it is not referred to or treated the same way as the period known as "recess".
absconditus 15y ago
"Anyway, much later in life, I was treated like Sam, in the blogging community. From my point of view, I expected the newcomers to like me, because I had blazed a trail for them, and wasn't asking for anything in return." Does Winer ever pass up a chance to promote and feel sorry for himself?
kevinpacheco 15y ago
I do respect everything I know about Dave Winer, except for one thing, his greatest perceivable flaw: He is too sensitive. Way too sensitive. He has blocked dozens of people on Twitter, including Kevin Marks(!). In his post he used phrases like "makes me feel ill," "here's what really pisses me off," and "I was so shaken to see." He strikes me as the kind of man around whom you'd have to walk on eggshells in person. That's not good. Both he and Stallman have accomplished many great things. They've left (and continue to leave) their mark on the world. It's not a stretch to say that in the tech sphere, they are public figures. (Most of us here, I'd wager, don't even merit a Wikipedia biography). The more well-known you are, the more people talk about you and up goes the probability that some of it will be offensive. If you're Bill Gates, you might even take a pie to the face. It that sort of behavior acceptable? Of course not. But if you're going to put yourself out there, you need a thick skin. Stiff upper lip, Dave.
moeedm 15y ago
I also stand up for Stallman but not when the temperature is above 72 fahrenheit. I find standing quite difficult.
Udo 15y ago
The glaring mistake that Dave Winer makes here is a misjudgement of RMS' intentions: > I looked at him, and asked him if he seriously was going to do this, in front of Stallman. Yeah, he kept at it. That's how pervasive this culture of disrespect is. To Stallman's credit, he not only stopped it, but dug in. He wanted to understand what was at the root of this. < Dave, he didn't defend you because someone was being mean to you. He didn't jump in because the tone of the discussion was disrespectful. He defended the GPL, plain and simple. You as a person were entirely unsubstantial to him. RMS sees the entire world through a very narrow filter. You were just lucky that your idea was in alignment with that filter at the time. If the roles were reversed, Richard Stallman would not stand up for you as a person the way you just did for him. He only stands up for the GPL. I believe he wouldn't even stand up for himself. Yes, he's that single-minded.
- omouse 15y ago
  He only stands up for the GPL as a means to an end...
skeptical 15y ago
I'm not sure if 'stading up for Stallman' is what I do as I am insignificant in that context. I certainly agree with him in almost every matter he talks about. I do not care to explain nor getting into discussions with those who either disagree with him or think their view is more sophisticated/moderated/reasonable/whatever. Stallman has very clear views about the matters he talks about. Personally I think his contribution to the world is a great inspiration. But I fail to understand why we would need to stand up for him, those who do not understand him, or reject to try to view things from his point of view are the ones that are missing the most. As for all the critics, eerr... you give credit to whomever you want. I don't care if every last celebrity 'bullies' him, I'll still give more importance to what he says BECAUSE OF WHAT HE SAYS.
teyc 15y ago
For Dave Winer to stand up for Stallman, requires someone to pick on him and Stallman not being able to defend himself. I don't see either of it happening. Stallman wasn't going to alter his behavior because of Kotte, and Kotte probabably isn't as affectionate with parrots - but that's OK with me. There is no Pick-On-Stallman movement. He has his beliefs and it presents an alternate model for software cooperation. For some situation, it clearly works, while for others, not so much. Of all the freedoms, the freedom to express an idea is one of the most important. As long as it is done in a manner that protects the weak. Stallman simply doesn't qualify. We recognize ad hominem for what it is, and Kotte's jibe is just that.
- benatkin 15y ago
  Disagree; there have been notable people in the FOSS community calling for a new leader of a Free Software movement and referencing stuff like this. I think it was worthwhile for Dave Winer to write this post and state his opinion that this kind of stuff shouldn't get in the way of Richard Stallman pursuing his dreams.
  - teyc 15y ago
    Why shouldn't the FOSS community, to the extent it supports FSF - not allowed to have their say about who leads them and who speaks for them? If there are alternate leaders let them step up and be counted. Dave Winer can only stand with Stallman. FSF or not, Stallman will continue to speak his mind, and amen to that.
    - benatkin 15y ago
      I took a look at the leadership of the FSF and found that it was much more well-rounded than I expected. http://www.fsf.org/about/board http://www.fsf.org/about/board I don't know, if three or more of the board members besides FSF thought it would be best for one of the current board members to be president I wouldn't be opposed. That may be a few years down the road. But I don't think Stallman should be replaced just because he's an odd fellow. If the change happens it should be for better long-term leadership.
ojosilva 15y ago
I just don't like when people resort to pity to get their point across. That's some cheap rhetoric stunt. And that's exactly what Dave Winer tries here: poor Sam in high school, poor Winer tortured by them trolls. Don't lower Stallman there. He's not some poor victim Sam from a broken home. He's a man with his beliefs who made his life choices. That's not something a lot of people out there can profess. He's not asking for nobody's mercy. He's no Sam. He's no winer. He needs no stunts.
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billpatrianakos 15y ago
So basically you stand up for Stallman because he reminds you of a kid in high school who used to get bullied? Not such a great reason. If I like Stallman I'd stand up for him because I believe in his ideals, respect his work, and want him to continue doing good. But then I'd remember he isn't doing much good. Stallman needs no defending. He's a big boy that leaves himself open to attack. Public figures always have to deal with that sort of thing but I'm sure they don't lose any sleep about it. But whatever, that doesn't bother me. What bothers me is people equating weird, eccentric, odd behavior and different views as automatically good. Novelty isn't always good. Different for the sake of different isn't always good. I'm going to wear my pants on my head and you shouldn't make fun of me because I'm different and eccentric which should translate into you thinking I'm a genius, right? No! Not at all. Stallman is certainly different and very possibly completely wrong. It's fun to make fun of his quirks even though we shouldn't (I'd like to add I never have made fun of him for quirks, only for actions and ideas) but why are we jumping in to defend this guy because he's different? There are a ton of people who think differently but we can't be applauding people for being different as it isn't that hard to do.
mixmastamyk 15y ago
I don't know anything about the author and found this piece lacking in a lot of important details. Such as what people are bullying him about? Without those details the piece read like it was authored by someone with a victim complex. Edit: I see below some of the reasons.
1point2 15y ago
There is a lot to read in here - and it all looks like good stuff - but wouldn't be funny if his (RMS's) warning panned out - time will tell. To those who say one has choice - to use or not to use - well maybe - I believe that one of our basic rights in the USA - to vote - to elect who will represent me at the highest levels - is tabulated using closed source soft/hardware - such a shame - sometimes there is no choice.
sequoia 15y ago
Someone brings up RMS on a tech forum... http://i.imgur.com/xblF4.gif http://i.imgur.com/xblF4.gif ;)

423 points by guan 15y ago

Uchikoma 15y ago

OT: Is there a way to remove all my comments from HN? I would like to give up.

tokenadult 15y ago
Is there a way to remove all my comments from HN? I would like to give up. Don't you see a delete link next to your recent posts? There is a time limit on how long you can delete or edit your posts, but you should still be within that limit for your most recent posts, all of which you can find if you look at the "threads" link at the top of the page when you are logged in.
- Uchikoma 15y ago
  Thanks, I've removed all my recent posts. Is there any way of removing all posts and all profile data?
  - hugh3 15y ago
    Emailing pg and asking nicely seems to be the only solution.

wyclif 15y ago

It is a truth universally acknowledged, that any blog post by Dave Winer must reference how he "blazed a trail" or some variation thereof.

donohoe 15y ago
Did you know he invented RSS, and its the most relevant thing on the web today? You'd never guess. I met Dave a few times back when I was with the tImes though I doubt he remembers me. He's nice enough in person but he has his own personal reality distortion field. I had to stop following him in Google Reader and Twitter to stay sane.
- wyclif 15y ago
  That "I invented RSS" line is utter bullshit of the highest order. Ramanathan V. Guha and Dan Libby of Netscape created it back in 1999. Do not pass go, do not drink the Kool-aid.
  - wmf 15y ago
    Of course, Netscape's initial version of RSS sucked and didn't get much traction until Winer got involved. The history of RSS isn't a simple thing.
    - wyclif 15y ago
      Except I wasn't talking about traction or the simplicity of history, but the assertion that Winer "invented" RSS, which is patently false.
      - deleted 15y ago
        [deleted]
      - jacob_riis 15y ago
        Citation?
  - joshu 15y ago
    btw Guha prefers to be called Guha...
  - BrandonM 15y ago
    I'm pretty sure donohoe was being sarcastic. Maybe someday we'll learn that sarcasm is rarely an insightful addition to a discussion.
    - donohoe 15y ago
      Yes, I was being sarcastic in the first instance. I'm Irish, without sarcasm I'd have nothing.
watmough 15y ago
This comment contributes nothing to the discussion. Dave's gone ahead and written a stand-out post that reflects upon bullying in general, and in tech in particular. Why not take the reasonable viewpoint that whilst we might not agree with everything RMS does or says, he deserves enormous respect for dedicating his life to a quest that has benefited most of us in one way or another.
- wyclif 15y ago
  Actually, I'm kind of burned out on the "bullying" meme. But the point of my comment had nothing to do with RMS, it had to do with Dave's level of self-aggrandizement. That some people on HN buy the "I invented RSS" lie is visible upstream.
  - danilocampos 15y ago
    I'm with you. Winer is exhausting because he spends so much time trying to make sure his reader understands how impressive he is. It gets dull.
    - phillmv 15y ago
      Unlike the circle jerk that goes on in this forum, right?
      - phillmv 15y ago
        (Are you instilling an entrepreneurial spirit in your children?)
  - hvs 15y ago
    I find it disturbing that you thinking bullying is a "meme."
- ajscherer 15y ago
  I disagree. This comment supports Dave's argument about as well as any comment I could imagine reading.
brlewis 15y ago
Dave is a good example for HN, where there's too much aversion to self-promotion. See also patio11's recent post touching on the value (or lack thereof) of modesty: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3170766 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3170766 FYI, when you invoke "truth universally acknowledged", people familiar with that phrase's origin will expect it to be followed by a bad assumption. See http://www.paulgraham.com/iflisp.html http://www.paulgraham.com/iflisp.html
- sp332 15y ago
  How does "my ideas should be considered on their merits" jibe with major self-promotion?
  - brlewis 15y ago
    Where did I say that everything Dave says is major self-promotion?
raganwald 15y ago
This comment reminds me of bikeshedding. There was this whole post, full of emotion and anger and sadness and conflict, written about people and behaviour and social ostracism, and you climbed onto your soapbox to say THAT? I can’t help but feel that this is not your best work. I have no idea whether it’s true or not, but Dave’s personality is irrelevant to the argument, which is about online communities and cyber-bullying. Unless, perhaps, you are trying to demonstrate how it works? Have I failed to catch the subtle way you demonstrate that if someone is disliked for something, no matter what they say and how important it is, people will focus on why they dislike that person?
- michaelchisari 15y ago
  you climbed onto your soapbox to say THAT? In Critical Theory discussions, it's called "derailing", and once you have a name for it, it becomes even more frustrating. Notice how now, we're not discussing the original ideas of the post, but are completely pushed into a tangential discussion. At least HN has threaded discussions. When it happens in flat discussions like Facebook, it's an order of magnitude more annoying.
- scott_s 15y ago
  So, here's the problem I have: I agree with you. But I also had the same reaction the parent did. It's an irrational, unfair response, but I am so tired of reading Winer's writing that I find I'm not capable of considering his points. I even know this about myself, yet I still read the comments here, then I still read his post. Short version: yes it's unfair, but yes, in this case, I'm unable to separate the message from the messenger.
  - raganwald 15y ago
    I empathize with you. While I read Dave’s words without trouble, I confess that I struggle with Eric Raymond’s words for reasons unrelated to the words themselves. It’s not easy for me to walk my talk, so I am loathe to criticize you for being just like me.
    - 15y ago
sull 15y ago
the man routinely clarifies his involvements or lack thereof in the stuff that he is given credit for by others or by he himself. bottom line, he has been involved in important Internet endeavors and prior art. so you better believe that he will speak of it when applicable. i see faults in DW's personality and technical opinions and on occasion will point them out (as a nobody in his world). but i am completely willing to read his words and observe his works despite any of the shortcomings. i know my own faults and would hope that those faults would not deter other peoples willingness to read or listen to me when i have something to say.

davidhansen 15y ago

Could someone more knowledgeable about internet community infighting explain what the hell Winer is talking about when he makes vague reference to being ostracized, persecuted, etc? Was there some epic battle that is so well-known that Winer doesn't feel the need to explain or even give footnotes for?

jleader 15y ago
I wasn't involved at the time, but what I've gathered over the years is that the early history of blogging and rss involved competing standards and personal and technical rivalries. My understanding is that Winer is an ardent self-promoter, quite opinionated, and rubs some people strongly the wrong way. He's created a bunch of cool and interesting stuff, and proudly claims credit for stuff some people don't think he deserves credit for. I don't really know who's right and who's wrong, I suspect there's at least a little fault on all sides. I think if Winer had explained or given footnotes, it would have distracted from the point of what I thought was a very powerful essay, but then I agree with him about Stallman.
- lkrubner 15y ago
  Dave Winer can claim credit only for the 2.0 version of RSS. The earliest version of RSS was invented by Dan Libby at Netscape. In 2006 I wrote up a thorough overview of the history of RSS up to that point: http://www.teamlalala.com/blog/2006/10/24/rss-has-been-damage-by-in-fighting-among-those-who-have-developed-it/ http://www.teamlalala.com/blog/2006/10/24/rss-has-been-damag...
  - brlewis 15y ago
    Wikipedia gives him credit for part of 0.91: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_web_syndication_technology#RSS_creation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_web_syndication_tech...
  - sounds 15y ago
    Nevertheless, Winer's point about Stallman is valid and I personally agree with him. I don't care who you are, or where you're from. Even if "I disapprove of what you say, ... I will defend to the death your right to say it" (- Voltaire? no primary source) The internet would be a lot smaller and less interesting if we only let "normal" people in!

parfe 15y ago

From another post of his: "About open source and whether I have the standing to discuss it, I've made a huge contribution to open source with the 2004 release of Frontier under the GPL. I was releasing code long before the terms free software or open source existed. Even so, as you'll see, I don't believe in the boundaries, I think ideas should freely cross the boundaries, and they do." http://scripting.com/stories/2008/08/10/howViralIsGpl.html#p3 http://scripting.com/stories/2008/08/10/howViralIsGpl.html#p... I had no idea what substantial contribution this guy provided. Turns out his company, UserLand, eventually GPL'd a content management system called Frontier http://frontierkernel.org/ http://frontierkernel.org/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UserLand_Software#Frontier http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UserLand_Software#Frontier While I personally have not heard of it, the author believes quite strongly in its importance.

drumdance 15y ago
Dave Winer is widely regarded to have invented both RSS and blogging.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
  - drumdance 15y ago
    The article you link to clearly says that RSS used some of Winer's scriptingNews syndication format.
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
- parfe 15y ago
  After seeing some other comments I went and looked into it. It seems Winer is the one who thinks he invented RSS. Reality seems to say multiple competing XML formats for content syndication existed around the same time. Someone took some features of Winer's format and combined it with an existing one and called it RSS. Shrug And on inventing blogging I read up thanks to wiki [1], as usual, and lo and behold! The claim his blog is one of the oldest is sourced! To an interview in which he claims it about his own blog, and then discounts it a sentence later. I have no opinion on if this guy actually influenced as much of tech history as he seems to think, but history has either been very unkind to him, or he promotes himself beyond the facts. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blogging http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blogging [2] http://news.cnet.com/2008-1082-985714.html http://news.cnet.com/2008-1082-985714.html

dustinupdyke 15y ago

If you agree with Schopenhauer on "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." and if you accept that the space Dave operates is populated by hackers, entrepreneurs and lots of other people looking for the next big thing, then his point is particularly poignant: > Okay, you say it's weird. And I say weird is good. People who show originality openly, without fear, are people I admire. And people I stand up for. Well put Dave. I agree. edit: Fixed grammatical error.

estel 15y ago
The way that that quote gets used doesn't make sense to me. Even given that all truth does pass through those three stages, that doesn't mean that something passing through the first two stages is especially likely to be ever accepted as self-evident.
- lyso 15y ago
  Right. They laughed at Einstein... But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
  - dustinupdyke 15y ago
    Both were quite successful at doing their own thing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bozo_the_Clown http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bozo_the_Clown
- dustinupdyke 15y ago
  That is perspective. Used in the context of looking forward, its just positive reinforcement.
nasmorn 15y ago
I would say either we all demand parrots for our business trip in tge future or Schopenhauer lost a lot of credibility here.
ugh 15y ago

Causification 15y ago

It is a very common flaw in reasoning that one party assumes that the opposition disagrees because they are scared or secretly agree. Atheists are all secretly christians, homophobes are all secretly gay, liberals are scared of "the truth." People who mock Stallman for taking his shoe off and eating things he picked off his foot in the middle of a presentation are not terrified of him shattering their paradigm. They just think it's gross.

icebraining 15y ago
But people who use it as if it somehow disproves his position on the ethics of software are stupid or dishonest. Simple as that.
- Herring 15y ago
  Stallman is a walking PR nightmare, and you're getting mad at human nature?? I don't believe this. 99.9% of humans won't take you seriously if you eat your toejam. That's normal. Stallman is nearly the worst thing to happen to the FSF. He should sit back & let Eben Moglen do the talking.
  - icebraining 15y ago
    Well, that's a bit of a false dichotomy. Disliking prejudice doesn't mean I don't wish RMS was a better spokesperson. But I wasn't really taking about the people who take him less seriously, but those who use that as an argument in a discussion. The former is a flaw (from which I suffer too), but the latter is much worse.
- Causification 15y ago
  Except that kottke didn't say anything at all about Stallman's ethics, position on software, or the FSF. He just said it was ridiculous for him to put two paragraphs about parrots in his rider. Simple as that.
  - icebraining 15y ago

kevinalexbrown 15y ago

I'm not sure Stallman needs "standing up for." The Kottke post from Winer had a quote from Stallman's rider, and that's about it. http://kottke.org/11/10/richard-stallmans-rider http://kottke.org/11/10/richard-stallmans-rider . Some people think Stallman's weird, but I'm certain he's decided his beliefs and attitudes are worth it. He made that decision on his own, as his own person, and I'm not sure he needs Winer to come save him from the big bad bullies.

blahedo 15y ago
That's the part that puzzled me. The comment was only that the parrot clause was "up there with" other extremely specific rider clauses. And the Van Halen clause is these days pretty widely known as an interesting system hack rather than mere eccentricity or weirdness. The Kottke post didn't come across to me as mocking at all, actually. (Unless you see "crazy" as exclusively of negative valence, I suppose.)
- zem 15y ago
  could you explain to me why you think stallman's parrot clause is crazy, or even overly specific? all he's saying is it would be nice if there were a friendly parrot he could see. the specific parts are telling people why they should not go out of their way to buy a parrot simply to make him happy.

raganwald 15y ago

I also stand up for Stallman: http://raganwald.posterous.com/i-also-stand-up-for-stallman http://raganwald.posterous.com/i-also-stand-up-for-stallman

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
- raganwald 15y ago
  This is what we call an "Ad Hominem Tu Quoque.” How does it validate or invalidate his words?
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
    - caf 15y ago
      raganwald is agreeing with Dave Winer in arguing against the personal ridiculing of RMS. The validity of this argument does not hinge on whether Dave Winer is being hypocritical in making it or not; one can be a hypocrite and still be correct. In other words, if you want to argue against raganwald and Dave Winer, that RMS should be ridiculed, you need to come up with something that logically supports that, not just assert "Dave Winer is a bully also". This assertion does not advance your argument.
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
    - ender7 15y ago
      http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Ad+Hominem+Tu+Quoque http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Ad+Hominem+Tu+Quoque [edit] This relates to your point because you are literally one click away from knowing the definition of such phrases. It is no great burden to ask that you occasionally Google phrases that people use, especially when there is not better way of saying it.

jrockway 15y ago

I also stand up for Stallman. Yes, people think he is a weird guy. But we are all weird, and he's weird and has changed the world for the better. I don't see what there is to hate. People worry that he might not be the best interface between Free Software and the rest of the world (because it's hard to relate to him), but who cares? If you can do a better job, do it. The only thing that's bad for the Free Software movement is worrying about who the leader is. It's you. Now get back to work and make us some awesome software.

armandososa 15y ago
Why do people from the U.S. use the word "hate" so lightly?
- jrockway 15y ago
  What makes you think I'm from the US?
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - buro9 15y ago
    Your github? https://github.com/jrockway/ https://github.com/jrockway/ says you're in Chicago, IL Analysis of your comments suggests non-European use of English. "Strong male" whereas European English is usually classified as "Weak male". And on your Google Places page you list only Chicago as places that you've lived. https://plus.google.com/u/1/105337359554006968707/about https://plus.google.com/u/1/105337359554006968707/about Unless you're trying really hard to consistently give a false impression, I'd bet you were just playing devil's advocate there as you do indeed appear to be from the US. Oh, and your domain is .us... but we all know that's a weak indicator.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- chollida1 15y ago

miked 15y ago

Googling: "dave winer" jerk --> 75,700 "dave winer" ass --> 248,000 "dave winer" asshole --> 9,440 For some strange reason, I find myself not interested in reading Dave Winer denouncing others for "bullying", all the while reminding you, sotto voce, of how wonderful Dave Winer is.

neurobashing 15y ago
There used to be a "Winer number", which was the number of times Winer had gone apeshit on you, typically in response to an innocuous comment.
funkah 15y ago
"miked" ass --> About 769,000 results. What is the point of this, exactly?

funkah 15y ago

Kottke called Stallman's rider (the whole thing) "crazy and amazing". Then he quoted the parrot thing, probably because it tickled his fancy. I don't agree that that constitutes "ridicule", in Winer's words.

jakejake 15y ago
I feel like those guys are projecting their own issues onto the situation. I didn't sense any malice in Kottke's post and certainly nothing that I would compare to high-school bullying.
yawn 15y ago
That's how I read it, too. This whole thing is overblown and Kottke is being used as an excuse for some drama.
gojomo 15y ago
Indeed – Kottke didn't indicate shunning-disapproval or even necessarily 'ridicule' (as both Winer and others downthread summarize Kottke). Kottke's chosen words aren't always meant negatively. ("Here's to the crazy ones...") In Kottke's context, he's given a fair description: the rider is, objectively, quite peculiar and illuminating about Stallman's intense priorities. But whether a reader takes that as a reason to shun and ostracize Stallman, as with disrespectful 'ridicule', is up to the reader. Do we think Kottke would counsel Stallman, if we were in some bizarro universe where Stallman sought others' advice, not to include those two paragraphs, because they're too ridiculous? I think it's equally likely Kottke would chuckle and say, "the bit about the parrots is crazy and brilliant, better even than the Van Halen thing... move it up higher!" Read Stallman charitably. Read Kottke charitably. Read everyone charitably.
- nmcfarl 15y ago
  > Read Stallman charitably. Read Kottke charitably. Read everyone charitably This! Always, every day. You might make the world a little bit better in the process, but you will make your life a good bit less stressful, just by being a bit more charitable, a bit less suspicious.

Tharkun 15y ago

RMS is not a "weird guy", he's an obnoxious dickhead. If you disagree, you haven't been in a room with him for longer than 5 minutes. Sure, he's made very important contributions to FOSS, but -- I invoke Godwin's Law! -- Hitler made many important contributions as well, but I don't see many people standing up for him.

muhfuhkuh 15y ago
Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison, William Faulkner, Van Gogh, JD Salinger, Denzel Washington. I've heard these guys are all massive assholes. Fortunately, I can still derive massive entertainment value and/or some form of personal or professional amelioration from their creativity. Same with Stallman. I use emacs every day, and GCC and GLIBC is the heart of just about every serious developer's toolkit. The man's life is his affair; look to his work. I didn't like Hitler's work or its underlying philosophy, let alone the man.
factorizer 15y ago
Wow. You know what they say: never go full retard. you just went.
Karunamon 15y ago
Why is this guy getting downvoted? People using the V arrow for disagree? Premise: RMS is an odious $pejorative .. I gotta agree with that. The man has done and continues to do good work, but he's still a complete unreasonable nutter. Being a nice likeable guy who accomplishes nothing or being a complete wad of dick who does all the things doesn't negate the other side of that balance.

hugh3 15y ago

Some folks miss the point. We only make fun of Stallman in an attempt to change his behaviour in a way that benefits both him and others. For instance, rms smells bad. If he could be persuaded to smell less bad, then everybody would benefit. Ridicule is a valuable social mechanism for giving negative feedback to those who behave inappropriately. For those who say "but can't we give this feedback in a non-hurtful way?", the answer is no, for the same reason that your brain can't make pain non-painful -- some people are too damn stubborn to listen to non-painful feedback. Here is a video of Richard Stallman, in the middle of a talk, eating something he's just picked off his foot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ

raganwald 15y ago
Your argument reminds me—painfully—of arguments in favour of physical bullying. “Hey, a few clouts to the head and he’ll get the idea.” I don’t hit my children, no matter how stubborn they are.
- terrywilcox 15y ago
  Straw man. Edit: I'm not saying that the original argument is correct, as it really isn't, but your response was a straw man.
  - hugh3 15y ago
    Indeed. My original comment may have been somewhat over the top, but I would still argue that yes, a bit of ridicule can sometimes do someone good. That's a very long way from saying anything about violence.
    - meric 15y ago
      You are trying to use "a bit of ridicule" to change rms's personal habits, then saying "That's a very long way from saying anything about violence". I fail to see how this contributes to anything.
deleted 15y ago

kenjackson 15y ago

I stand against Stallman. I'm no bully. I don't personally know or insult him. But I do disagree with his position on software (I agree with some of what he says, but I think we end up falling in opposing corners nevertheless). But standing against someone and pointing out why you disagree I think is quite in the spirit of Stallman himself. With that said, I don't know the extent of the abuse that Stallman has received from others, but its not obvious to an outsider what the abuse is. Some mocking over a rider? You should hear the abuse I've gotten over some of my haircuts. I will say that while I disagree with RMS I do think his influence has been large and positive for most of his career. I don't think he's a particularly good spokesperson, but he makes up for it in other ways. I've even listed RMS as one I think is on the short list of potential Turing Award winners (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2305496 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2305496). I stand against Stallman, but I'm glad he's there to stand against.

shareme 15y ago
actually RMS is an excellent spokesperson which is why the movement is so successful.
- lightyrs 15y ago
  In a world of Apple, Google, Microsoft, and Open Source, I wonder if FSM is actually successful. Sure it's had successes, but success-ful, I would hesitate to call it. Also, I'm pretty sure the original commenter was implying that RMS is a bad spokesman because he is so polarizing/unattractive (idealogically).
  - jrockway 15y ago
    How much did it cost you to learn to program? Before Free Software, it would have been a lot. Now you can learn and create amazing software without spending any money. And there is a culture of sharing that's made software one of the most successful fields to date.
    - 15y ago

parfe 15y ago

tl;dr summary 1) I was a popular guy in school. Ridiculously popular. 2) Although I was popular (even if I didn't hang out with the other kids), I am still a good guy because I hung around the weird kid in school. He still acted weird, but I was a good guy so I stuck it out. 3) Did I mention he never stopped being weird? Did I mention I was popular even though I didn't hang out with all the other people? 4) I was popular in high school so I fully expected to be popular on the Internet. I blazed a path and these people didn't even care, or like me! Editors note: Note the lack of introspection. Perhaps they don't like you despite the path you blazed (or claim to have blazed)? 5) I released my life's work under the GPL and the internet ganged up on me for it. Even strangers in real life picked on me. Why aren't I still popular? 6) Kottle highlighted a single odd entry in RMS's rider which made me ill. I'll defend RMS by saying "YEAH, so he's weird!" errata: Winer went to a high school which had recess.

maigret 15y ago
Your summary has a very sarcastic tone, just saying.
ajross 15y ago
This is so over the top that I can't decide if it's a deliberate troll or not. But if you really think this kind of ridicule and lashing out is an appropriate response to a blog post about needless ridicule then... well, I don't know. Shame on you I guess. This is just sad.
- jrockway 15y ago
  Not every application of the written word needs to be documenting an event or opinion. This post isn't a good summary of what Winer wrote. It is, however, good reading. Winer can be a little annoying from time to time. This post harps on that particular aspect of Winer without saying, "you know, Dave Winer annoys me." If you read through it, you laugh a bit, and think "yeah, this post sounds like it's about RMS but it's really about Winer", and that's interesting insight. parfe could have said exactly that, but why use one line to say what you literally mean when you can convey that message and entertain at the same time?

scott_s 15y ago

I was actually heartened by the fact that most of the posts I read on HN about Stallman's rider had the same reaction I did: hey, all that sounds pretty reasonable.

dhugiaskmak 15y ago

Anyway, much later in life, I was treated like Sam I had a hard time taking his post seriously after this. As someone who was the "weird kid" growing up this sentence is so insulting, and so far past egotistical, that I'm not even sure there's a word capable of describing it. It's like someone trying to sympathize with a famine victim by complaining that they missed lunch yesterday.

frou_dh 15y ago

John Gruber is even more guilty of this. Parrot / breakfast point and laugh: http://daringfireball.net/linked/2011/10/26/rms http://daringfireball.net/linked/2011/10/26/rms Linking to a site set up purely to mock Stallman: http://daringfireball.net/linked/2011/10/27/stallman-dialogues http://daringfireball.net/linked/2011/10/27/stallman-dialogu... The latest episode of his podcast, about Stallman, is called "They Had to Burn the Sheets" (I haven't listened to it, but going by the title I think it's a safe assumption that it continues the theme): http://daringfireball.net/linked/2011/10/27/the-talk-show-64 http://daringfireball.net/linked/2011/10/27/the-talk-show-64

funkah 15y ago
Gruber is so openly contemptuous of Stallman that I find it hard to believe that Winer is focusing on Kottke instead. In the episode of the Talk Show you linked to, Gruber's co-host Dan Benjamin keeps trying to rein Gruber in from being unfair to Stallman. He shuts down Gruber from talking about the infamous foot-eating incident on multiple occasions. And yes, the title is indeed about Stallman; Gruber repeats some anecdotes he heard about Stallman's hygeine. He makes Kottke look downright generous. If you read what Winer is saying with Gruber in mind, it makes sense. But Kottke's entry strikes me as much more innocuous than Winer is making it out to be.
- there 15y ago
  maybe, like many of us, winer doesn't pay attention to gruber.
  - pandeiro 15y ago
    who?
  - funkah 15y ago
    In that case he should stop paying attention to Kottke too, problem solved.
    - 15y ago

jsz0 15y ago

And if you disagree, have the self-respect to express it with dignity. Someone should tell that to Stallman who often proclaims people who disagree with him are evil.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

Lagged2Death 15y ago

I think Winer misunderstands Kottke's feelings about Van Halen. There's a sentence you didn't think you'd read today. But seriously.

monochromatic 15y ago

Did Kottke even read the link about the Van Halen brown M&M thing? Because it wasn't some crazy whim; it had a perfectly reasonable justification. Saying that Stallman's parrot thing is "right up there" with the brown M&Ms doesn't make sense, if you're trying to laugh at Stallman.

gokhan 15y ago
Anil Dash, in comments section of Winer's post, makes the same mistake of having an idea withouth having enough knowledge: > ... using that power to cow conference organizers and academics into submission to an arbitrary set of whims, the same as a rock star refusing to eat certain colors of M&Ms ... http://scripting.com/stories/2011/10/31/whyIStandUpForStallman.html#comment-352247635 http://scripting.com/stories/2011/10/31/whyIStandUpForStallm...
- benatkin 15y ago
  There is so much wrong with Anil Dash's long-winded comment. The first thing he gets wrong is expecting Stallman to handle traveling around for his cause just as well as others have done. Wrong. The personality traits from which people find themselves leading a cause are not the same ones which make people great traveling guests. Another big thing he gets wrong is understating GNU's role in Free Software Operating Systems. After reading that I'm convinced that he doesn't understand how important development tools are when creating a new platform. FWIW I don't always say "GNU/Linux". I usually say "Linux". I certainly am not opposed to saying "GNU/Linux", however. I wish more people, Anil included, understood the pivotal role the GNU toolchain provided, but I don't think saying "GNU/Linux" is the best way.
wmf 15y ago
The mythical interpretation of the brown M&Ms as signifying capricious demands made by popular people has overtaken the original meaning, so Kottke et al. should be understood as referring to that myth.
- monochromatic 15y ago

rcade 15y ago

Richard Stallman is one of my heroes in tech. He's a deeply fascinating and amazingly obstinate thinker who should be Walter Isaacson's next book project. But does he really need anyone's help fending off bullies? A guy who described Steve Jobs as being guilty of "evil" after his death would eat bullies for breakfast. If he ate breakfast. Which he doesn't. And don't ask him why.

dreww 15y ago

i guess the advanced high school was so advanced they still had recess...

ugh 15y ago
So, uhm, what’s this meme all about? It has been mentioned here twice. What’s recess got to do with how good a school is? I’m from Germany and I have never heard anyone suggest that breaks are a bad thing. This seems completely bizarre to me.
- nknight 15y ago
  "Recess" has rather specific connotations in American English. It is not simply another word for "break". It connotes a supervised, semi-structured playtime for young children, generally outdoors, in the presence of teachers. By the time one hits high school (9th grade) in the US, such things do not occur. You may have free time between classes, but it is not referred to or treated the same way as the period known as "recess".

absconditus 15y ago

"Anyway, much later in life, I was treated like Sam, in the blogging community. From my point of view, I expected the newcomers to like me, because I had blazed a trail for them, and wasn't asking for anything in return." Does Winer ever pass up a chance to promote and feel sorry for himself?

kevinpacheco 15y ago

I do respect everything I know about Dave Winer, except for one thing, his greatest perceivable flaw: He is too sensitive. Way too sensitive. He has blocked dozens of people on Twitter, including Kevin Marks(!). In his post he used phrases like "makes me feel ill," "here's what really pisses me off," and "I was so shaken to see." He strikes me as the kind of man around whom you'd have to walk on eggshells in person. That's not good. Both he and Stallman have accomplished many great things. They've left (and continue to leave) their mark on the world. It's not a stretch to say that in the tech sphere, they are public figures. (Most of us here, I'd wager, don't even merit a Wikipedia biography). The more well-known you are, the more people talk about you and up goes the probability that some of it will be offensive. If you're Bill Gates, you might even take a pie to the face. It that sort of behavior acceptable? Of course not. But if you're going to put yourself out there, you need a thick skin. Stiff upper lip, Dave.

moeedm 15y ago

I also stand up for Stallman but not when the temperature is above 72 fahrenheit. I find standing quite difficult.

Udo 15y ago

The glaring mistake that Dave Winer makes here is a misjudgement of RMS' intentions: > I looked at him, and asked him if he seriously was going to do this, in front of Stallman. Yeah, he kept at it. That's how pervasive this culture of disrespect is. To Stallman's credit, he not only stopped it, but dug in. He wanted to understand what was at the root of this. < Dave, he didn't defend you because someone was being mean to you. He didn't jump in because the tone of the discussion was disrespectful. He defended the GPL, plain and simple. You as a person were entirely unsubstantial to him. RMS sees the entire world through a very narrow filter. You were just lucky that your idea was in alignment with that filter at the time. If the roles were reversed, Richard Stallman would not stand up for you as a person the way you just did for him. He only stands up for the GPL. I believe he wouldn't even stand up for himself. Yes, he's that single-minded.

omouse 15y ago
He only stands up for the GPL as a means to an end...

skeptical 15y ago

I'm not sure if 'stading up for Stallman' is what I do as I am insignificant in that context. I certainly agree with him in almost every matter he talks about. I do not care to explain nor getting into discussions with those who either disagree with him or think their view is more sophisticated/moderated/reasonable/whatever. Stallman has very clear views about the matters he talks about. Personally I think his contribution to the world is a great inspiration. But I fail to understand why we would need to stand up for him, those who do not understand him, or reject to try to view things from his point of view are the ones that are missing the most. As for all the critics, eerr... you give credit to whomever you want. I don't care if every last celebrity 'bullies' him, I'll still give more importance to what he says BECAUSE OF WHAT HE SAYS.

teyc 15y ago

For Dave Winer to stand up for Stallman, requires someone to pick on him and Stallman not being able to defend himself. I don't see either of it happening. Stallman wasn't going to alter his behavior because of Kotte, and Kotte probabably isn't as affectionate with parrots - but that's OK with me. There is no Pick-On-Stallman movement. He has his beliefs and it presents an alternate model for software cooperation. For some situation, it clearly works, while for others, not so much. Of all the freedoms, the freedom to express an idea is one of the most important. As long as it is done in a manner that protects the weak. Stallman simply doesn't qualify. We recognize ad hominem for what it is, and Kotte's jibe is just that.

benatkin 15y ago
Disagree; there have been notable people in the FOSS community calling for a new leader of a Free Software movement and referencing stuff like this. I think it was worthwhile for Dave Winer to write this post and state his opinion that this kind of stuff shouldn't get in the way of Richard Stallman pursuing his dreams.
- teyc 15y ago
  Why shouldn't the FOSS community, to the extent it supports FSF - not allowed to have their say about who leads them and who speaks for them? If there are alternate leaders let them step up and be counted. Dave Winer can only stand with Stallman. FSF or not, Stallman will continue to speak his mind, and amen to that.
  - benatkin 15y ago
    I took a look at the leadership of the FSF and found that it was much more well-rounded than I expected. http://www.fsf.org/about/board http://www.fsf.org/about/board I don't know, if three or more of the board members besides FSF thought it would be best for one of the current board members to be president I wouldn't be opposed. That may be a few years down the road. But I don't think Stallman should be replaced just because he's an odd fellow. If the change happens it should be for better long-term leadership.

ojosilva 15y ago

I just don't like when people resort to pity to get their point across. That's some cheap rhetoric stunt. And that's exactly what Dave Winer tries here: poor Sam in high school, poor Winer tortured by them trolls. Don't lower Stallman there. He's not some poor victim Sam from a broken home. He's a man with his beliefs who made his life choices. That's not something a lot of people out there can profess. He's not asking for nobody's mercy. He's no Sam. He's no winer. He needs no stunts.

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billpatrianakos 15y ago

So basically you stand up for Stallman because he reminds you of a kid in high school who used to get bullied? Not such a great reason. If I like Stallman I'd stand up for him because I believe in his ideals, respect his work, and want him to continue doing good. But then I'd remember he isn't doing much good. Stallman needs no defending. He's a big boy that leaves himself open to attack. Public figures always have to deal with that sort of thing but I'm sure they don't lose any sleep about it. But whatever, that doesn't bother me. What bothers me is people equating weird, eccentric, odd behavior and different views as automatically good. Novelty isn't always good. Different for the sake of different isn't always good. I'm going to wear my pants on my head and you shouldn't make fun of me because I'm different and eccentric which should translate into you thinking I'm a genius, right? No! Not at all. Stallman is certainly different and very possibly completely wrong. It's fun to make fun of his quirks even though we shouldn't (I'd like to add I never have made fun of him for quirks, only for actions and ideas) but why are we jumping in to defend this guy because he's different? There are a ton of people who think differently but we can't be applauding people for being different as it isn't that hard to do.

mixmastamyk 15y ago

I don't know anything about the author and found this piece lacking in a lot of important details. Such as what people are bullying him about? Without those details the piece read like it was authored by someone with a victim complex. Edit: I see below some of the reasons.

1point2 15y ago

There is a lot to read in here - and it all looks like good stuff - but wouldn't be funny if his (RMS's) warning panned out - time will tell. To those who say one has choice - to use or not to use - well maybe - I believe that one of our basic rights in the USA - to vote - to elect who will represent me at the highest levels - is tabulated using closed source soft/hardware - such a shame - sometimes there is no choice.

sequoia 15y ago

Someone brings up RMS on a tech forum... http://i.imgur.com/xblF4.gif http://i.imgur.com/xblF4.gif ;)