7 ms·

I've always wondered about this, at Amazon and also at Uber/Lyft/DoorDash etc... They seem to burn through people quite fast. Won't they all just run out of peo

I've always wondered about this, at Amazon and also at Uber/Lyft/DoorDash etc... They seem to burn through people quite fast. Won't they all just run out of people at some point, or will just increasing pay bring enough people back?

kayodelycaon 4y ago
If it's anything like retail, a lot of these places work on the assumption that there are enough people who too desperate for a job that they'll come regardless of the working conditions.
- sophacles 4y ago
  Yep, and when the free market sets up conditions to allow those people to be slightly less desperate the Fed will chime in about how unemployment is too low and we need more desparate people, while the wall st pundits go on and on lamenting how rising worker prices might mean that the companies make profits that gasp don't set records. Because apparently the only measure of a good economy is record profits - regular profitable businesses just don't cut it anymore. If you find this worrying, don't - someone will be along shortly to spend a lot of words proving that this situation (the one where we require desperate people to exist so Elon and Jeff can make a few extra $billion) is somehow the best.
  - diordiderot 4y ago
    [flagged]
- the_only_law 4y ago
  Having worked in conditions like this, god it's horrible. The people that were there when I started were rough guys, but they could do their job. After I started the company apparently could only hire angry alcoholics, lazy stoners, and fresh out of jail domestic abusers who were proud of it. How many of these people could the job effectively, no. Then the company had a merge and corporate came down with a brilliant plan to force all the fulltime employees (read legacy employees with some level of leadership responsibilities and the only ones good at their job) into part time positions or offer them severance to leave. You can imagine what happens. So then it was me, a couple other guys, and a slew of incompetent bums. I managed to take advantage of the situation to demand a pathetic raise and near total autonomy of my hours. These concessions ended up being not enough and one night I decided not to show up anymore, as management was constantly moving responsibilities of their "friends" to use. Luckily I had been using my time to make my break into the software industry. A couple years later, I read that triple merged company had to file for bankruptcy.
zionic 4y ago
This is one reason why these types of megacorps support mass immigration, it provides a steady stream of desperate people they can exploit. Those from other countries also might lack the collective cultural knowledge to stay away.
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  I hadn't really thought before about how left-wing folks typically want higher wages as well as more mass immigration which inherently suppresses wages. In their defense, they want raises waged by law rather than by market (an elevated minimum wage would raise wages irrespective of immigration), but considering how unlikely a minimum federal wage hike is, it seems like they're pursuing two contradictory goals. EDIT: I was really (naively) hoping this would be discussed maturely. Some clarifying points: 1. "mass immigration" is just intended in opposition to highly selective immigration policies (e.g., policies which allow highly educated or wealthy people to immigrate). This isn't a criticism or a value judgment, and indeed there's something noble and egalitarian about this. 2. observing that these two goals are contradictory doesn't imply ignobility or foolishness, but rather difficulty of task. 3. I'm not a "right-winger" nor do I have a political tribe. I'm not slinging anything at left-wing people.
  - reaperducer 4y ago
    I hadn't really thought before about how left-wing folks Can't HN be the one place on the internet that isn't sullied by tribalism?
    - throwaway894345 4y ago
      I don't have a political tribe, I'm not a partisan, etc. I was hoping HN would be the one place on the Internet where we could discuss things maturely. Notably, I'm not attacking left-wing people or viewpoints here, but observing that there are two goals that are in apparent conflict (which isn't to say they contradict each other or that they're ignoble or anything else).
jaywalk 4y ago
They can only increase pay so much before they have to increase their fees beyond the point people are willing to pay them. As an anecdote, I have completely stopped using DoorDash because they recently increased their fees to a level that I consider to be absurd.
- dawnerd 4y ago
  Same. My last doordash order was for 20 dollars of food and after tip (the suggested) it came to over double the original food cost. That's just not sustainable for anyone.
- sophacles 4y ago
  I mean they could also not set record profits, and just have regular profits for a while.
- lumost 4y ago
  It is not a given that all service economy business models will survive. Historically as goods got cheaper relative to labor, service prices rose. In poor countries service jobs such as doorman or shaver are much more common than in rich countries. The classic example is that below a certain income level, the majority of men start to have their faces professionally shaved rather than doing it themselves. Having another person spend 15-30 minutes in a high stress situation to deliver you food should be a high cost activity that gets more expensive relative to your income over time. Traditional delivery services only made this cost effective by making food for low cost. The alternative is an economy where wages cannot rise relative to goods.
- VBprogrammer 4y ago
  I'm not sure how much food delivery should cost. Though most local restaurants around me seen to do it for free (and tipping isn't expected, in fact it would be a struggle, most drivers drop the food and run now). I'm not naive enough though not to notice that it's all done under the table. Few are paying tax or commercial insurance on their vehicles to do restaurant delivery. I'm pretty sure doing it legitimately costs a reasonable amount. Doubly so when you aren't just trying to get your food to your customers but also paying a bunch of developers Silicon Valley wages to try to capture the entire market before someone else does.
ezconnect 4y ago
You'll be surprised how many people are looking for a job and these companies know the numbers. That's the reason why they dictate the process. In some countries there's just not enough population to fill all the vacancies so the workers dictate the terms. eg South Korea.
Tiktaalik 4y ago
They'll start to lobby the government to bring in temporary foreign workers before they'll raise wages and improve working conditions.

kayodelycaon 4y ago

If it's anything like retail, a lot of these places work on the assumption that there are enough people who too desperate for a job that they'll come regardless of the working conditions.

sophacles 4y ago
Yep, and when the free market sets up conditions to allow those people to be slightly less desperate the Fed will chime in about how unemployment is too low and we need more desparate people, while the wall st pundits go on and on lamenting how rising worker prices might mean that the companies make profits that gasp don't set records. Because apparently the only measure of a good economy is record profits - regular profitable businesses just don't cut it anymore. If you find this worrying, don't - someone will be along shortly to spend a lot of words proving that this situation (the one where we require desperate people to exist so Elon and Jeff can make a few extra $billion) is somehow the best.
- diordiderot 4y ago
  [flagged]
the_only_law 4y ago
Having worked in conditions like this, god it's horrible. The people that were there when I started were rough guys, but they could do their job. After I started the company apparently could only hire angry alcoholics, lazy stoners, and fresh out of jail domestic abusers who were proud of it. How many of these people could the job effectively, no. Then the company had a merge and corporate came down with a brilliant plan to force all the fulltime employees (read legacy employees with some level of leadership responsibilities and the only ones good at their job) into part time positions or offer them severance to leave. You can imagine what happens. So then it was me, a couple other guys, and a slew of incompetent bums. I managed to take advantage of the situation to demand a pathetic raise and near total autonomy of my hours. These concessions ended up being not enough and one night I decided not to show up anymore, as management was constantly moving responsibilities of their "friends" to use. Luckily I had been using my time to make my break into the software industry. A couple years later, I read that triple merged company had to file for bankruptcy.

zionic 4y ago

This is one reason why these types of megacorps support mass immigration, it provides a steady stream of desperate people they can exploit. Those from other countries also might lack the collective cultural knowledge to stay away.

throwaway894345 4y ago
I hadn't really thought before about how left-wing folks typically want higher wages as well as more mass immigration which inherently suppresses wages. In their defense, they want raises waged by law rather than by market (an elevated minimum wage would raise wages irrespective of immigration), but considering how unlikely a minimum federal wage hike is, it seems like they're pursuing two contradictory goals. EDIT: I was really (naively) hoping this would be discussed maturely. Some clarifying points: 1. "mass immigration" is just intended in opposition to highly selective immigration policies (e.g., policies which allow highly educated or wealthy people to immigrate). This isn't a criticism or a value judgment, and indeed there's something noble and egalitarian about this. 2. observing that these two goals are contradictory doesn't imply ignobility or foolishness, but rather difficulty of task. 3. I'm not a "right-winger" nor do I have a political tribe. I'm not slinging anything at left-wing people.
- reaperducer 4y ago
  I hadn't really thought before about how left-wing folks Can't HN be the one place on the internet that isn't sullied by tribalism?
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    I don't have a political tribe, I'm not a partisan, etc. I was hoping HN would be the one place on the Internet where we could discuss things maturely. Notably, I'm not attacking left-wing people or viewpoints here, but observing that there are two goals that are in apparent conflict (which isn't to say they contradict each other or that they're ignoble or anything else).

jaywalk 4y ago

They can only increase pay so much before they have to increase their fees beyond the point people are willing to pay them. As an anecdote, I have completely stopped using DoorDash because they recently increased their fees to a level that I consider to be absurd.

dawnerd 4y ago
Same. My last doordash order was for 20 dollars of food and after tip (the suggested) it came to over double the original food cost. That's just not sustainable for anyone.
sophacles 4y ago
I mean they could also not set record profits, and just have regular profits for a while.
lumost 4y ago
It is not a given that all service economy business models will survive. Historically as goods got cheaper relative to labor, service prices rose. In poor countries service jobs such as doorman or shaver are much more common than in rich countries. The classic example is that below a certain income level, the majority of men start to have their faces professionally shaved rather than doing it themselves. Having another person spend 15-30 minutes in a high stress situation to deliver you food should be a high cost activity that gets more expensive relative to your income over time. Traditional delivery services only made this cost effective by making food for low cost. The alternative is an economy where wages cannot rise relative to goods.
VBprogrammer 4y ago
I'm not sure how much food delivery should cost. Though most local restaurants around me seen to do it for free (and tipping isn't expected, in fact it would be a struggle, most drivers drop the food and run now). I'm not naive enough though not to notice that it's all done under the table. Few are paying tax or commercial insurance on their vehicles to do restaurant delivery. I'm pretty sure doing it legitimately costs a reasonable amount. Doubly so when you aren't just trying to get your food to your customers but also paying a bunch of developers Silicon Valley wages to try to capture the entire market before someone else does.

ezconnect 4y ago

You'll be surprised how many people are looking for a job and these companies know the numbers. That's the reason why they dictate the process. In some countries there's just not enough population to fill all the vacancies so the workers dictate the terms. eg South Korea.

Tiktaalik 4y ago

They'll start to lobby the government to bring in temporary foreign workers before they'll raise wages and improve working conditions.