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I don't think it's that people don't understand how electric cars work, because I don't think that gives people enough credit. I think it's more that BEV advoca

I don't think it's that people don't understand how electric cars work, because I don't think that gives people enough credit. I think it's more that BEV advocates misunderstand how other people buy vehicles, or rather, they might have different purchasing habits because they skew wealthy. I don't buy a vehicle for the average use case -- I buy it for the edge cases. When I need to be able to move stuff or tow a trailer, I can. If I needed to cross the country tonight because of a family emergency, I could. I think this is a fairly common mindset for most people, because after a house, a car is the most expensive thing we'll ever own. The cost and continued upkeep mandates that a vehicle has utility beyond what a person needs on average. You're right that most people don't need a 22kW charger for their car, and they can wake up with a full tank every morning, but most people are probably also averse to the idea that their car has a downtime of several hours when they might really need it. You aren't just paying for the privilege of going from A to B, because if that's all it were, you could just call a cab -- part of owning and paying the upkeep for a car is that you're able to go right now when you need to.

carlmr 4y ago
>The cost and continued upkeep mandates that a vehicle has utility beyond what a person needs on average. Exactly! I hate the 90% of drives are less than 50km argument which is always made about range issues. I don't want to buy another car for the 10%. Also I take the train to work, I walk/cycle to the store. Almost all my driving is for hiking, climbing, skiing, or other vacations. I won't buy a car that has a max range with a new battery and no AC on that just barely gets me there and back.
- Philip-J-Fry 4y ago
  You don't buy another car for the 10%. EVs do more than 50km... You rent a car for the case where you're going over 400km and charging is an issue. Probably 0.1% of trips, maybe less.
  - carlmr 4y ago
    400km is already only with new battery and no AC on most affordable EVs. And I do 400km trips most of the months, it's definitely more than 0.1% for me.
turtlebits 4y ago
Sorry, but that makes no sense. You can also wake up to a car with no gas. So your dilemma will be to either get gas to your home (will likely require another vehicle) or to plug in (until you have range get to a fast charge- or just let it charge) And yes, you can make that cross country trip in an EV. It will probably take longer (2-3 hours spent fast charging).
- nomel 4y ago
  I did this last weekend, and it single handedly killed my desire to go all electric. I reserved two cars at two different rental agencies, showed up, and both said they had no cars. Another two didn't have the size I needed (+1 of ICE car capacity). The final one ended up costing $200/day, all after a few hours driving around town. This was just a random weekend. I can't imagine if there was any sort of desire to leave town, amongst the larger population. I'll be keeping my ICE car to go along with my electric, even if it just sits there, rusting. With that three day weekend excursion, I've paid for 13 months of my ICE car insurance.
imtringued 4y ago
I'm surprised to hear that the people going on 400km trips every month aren't the wealthy ones. I only drive 1000km per month. A 400km trip+return is 80% of my monthly commute meaning it would double my fuel expenses from roughly 120€ to 240€ per month.
XorNot 4y ago
In all those use cases though you are anywhere but your home. So you would be using fast chargers provided in the same way gas stations are. The situation you're describing is "I drive enough to drain my car completely, then take it home to recharge it, then immediately plan to do that again within 30 minutes of going home, and will never stop at a fast charger on that journey which can be completed within the 450km range of my battery". It's conceivable, but so convoluted that it would never happen.
- imtringued 4y ago
  It takes me more than two minutes to fill my car up.
- coderenegade 4y ago
  The situation I'm describing is any trip for which the potential of waiting an hour (or more, in many cases) at a fast charger is problematic. My car can be nearly empty in my driveway, and it costs me two minutes to fill it up. This means that if I needed to sprint to the state border before it closed (a real-life scenario for several of my coworkers during COVID), I could. Ditto for any other situation where you might be time pressed. A BEV is charged every time you take it out, but it also needs to be, because charging isn't a two minute thing. Like it or not, this affects its utility relative to a standard vehicle, in certain situations. Maybe it's a 1% kind of thing, but again, I'm not convinced that most of us buy cars for the average use case. If we did, SUVs wouldn't be the highest selling segment of the market.
Philip-J-Fry 4y ago
>I don't buy a vehicle for the average use case -- I buy it for the edge cases. When I need to be able to move stuff or tow a trailer, I can. If I needed to cross the country tonight because of a family emergency, I could. I think this is a fairly common mindset for most people, That really isn't the common mindset. If it was, everyone would be driving huge 7 seater trucks for the edge case where they need to haul some lumber with their 7 person family. Most people buy a car for their typical needs. If they want to move a lot of stuff, they rent a van or a trailer. If you needed to cross the country tonight because of a family emergency you could do that in any car, EV or fossil fuel. A modern EV might take you longer because of charging stops, but when you factor in scheduled breaks of a typical cross country drive, the charging times don't actually add up to a lot more at all. >You're right that most people don't need a 22kW charger for their car, and they can wake up with a full tank every morning, but most people are probably also averse to the idea that their car has a downtime of several hours when they might really need it If you need a full car then you drive to a fast charger and charge it. They exist for this exact purpose of needing a fast charge. I can charge my car to 80% in like 20 minutes.
- throw0101a 4y ago
  > That really isn't the common mindset. If it was, everyone would be driving huge 7 seater trucks for the edge case where they need to haul some lumber with their 7 person family. > Most people buy a car for their typical needs. If they want to move a lot of stuff, they rent a van or a trailer. The top three selling vehicles in the US are F-150, Ram 1500/2500/3500, and Chevrolet Silverado: * https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g36005989/best-selling-cars-2021/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g36005989/best-selling-car... * https://www.edmunds.com/most-popular-cars/ https://www.edmunds.com/most-popular-cars/ The F-series has been on the top of the list for decades.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - Philip-J-Fry 4y ago
    This doesn't hold true for anywhere outside of the US.

carlmr 4y ago

>The cost and continued upkeep mandates that a vehicle has utility beyond what a person needs on average. Exactly! I hate the 90% of drives are less than 50km argument which is always made about range issues. I don't want to buy another car for the 10%. Also I take the train to work, I walk/cycle to the store. Almost all my driving is for hiking, climbing, skiing, or other vacations. I won't buy a car that has a max range with a new battery and no AC on that just barely gets me there and back.

Philip-J-Fry 4y ago
You don't buy another car for the 10%. EVs do more than 50km... You rent a car for the case where you're going over 400km and charging is an issue. Probably 0.1% of trips, maybe less.
- carlmr 4y ago
  400km is already only with new battery and no AC on most affordable EVs. And I do 400km trips most of the months, it's definitely more than 0.1% for me.

turtlebits 4y ago

Sorry, but that makes no sense. You can also wake up to a car with no gas. So your dilemma will be to either get gas to your home (will likely require another vehicle) or to plug in (until you have range get to a fast charge- or just let it charge) And yes, you can make that cross country trip in an EV. It will probably take longer (2-3 hours spent fast charging).

nomel 4y ago
I did this last weekend, and it single handedly killed my desire to go all electric. I reserved two cars at two different rental agencies, showed up, and both said they had no cars. Another two didn't have the size I needed (+1 of ICE car capacity). The final one ended up costing $200/day, all after a few hours driving around town. This was just a random weekend. I can't imagine if there was any sort of desire to leave town, amongst the larger population. I'll be keeping my ICE car to go along with my electric, even if it just sits there, rusting. With that three day weekend excursion, I've paid for 13 months of my ICE car insurance.

imtringued 4y ago

I'm surprised to hear that the people going on 400km trips every month aren't the wealthy ones. I only drive 1000km per month. A 400km trip+return is 80% of my monthly commute meaning it would double my fuel expenses from roughly 120€ to 240€ per month.

XorNot 4y ago

In all those use cases though you are anywhere but your home. So you would be using fast chargers provided in the same way gas stations are. The situation you're describing is "I drive enough to drain my car completely, then take it home to recharge it, then immediately plan to do that again within 30 minutes of going home, and will never stop at a fast charger on that journey which can be completed within the 450km range of my battery". It's conceivable, but so convoluted that it would never happen.

imtringued 4y ago
It takes me more than two minutes to fill my car up.
coderenegade 4y ago
The situation I'm describing is any trip for which the potential of waiting an hour (or more, in many cases) at a fast charger is problematic. My car can be nearly empty in my driveway, and it costs me two minutes to fill it up. This means that if I needed to sprint to the state border before it closed (a real-life scenario for several of my coworkers during COVID), I could. Ditto for any other situation where you might be time pressed. A BEV is charged every time you take it out, but it also needs to be, because charging isn't a two minute thing. Like it or not, this affects its utility relative to a standard vehicle, in certain situations. Maybe it's a 1% kind of thing, but again, I'm not convinced that most of us buy cars for the average use case. If we did, SUVs wouldn't be the highest selling segment of the market.

Philip-J-Fry 4y ago

>I don't buy a vehicle for the average use case -- I buy it for the edge cases. When I need to be able to move stuff or tow a trailer, I can. If I needed to cross the country tonight because of a family emergency, I could. I think this is a fairly common mindset for most people, That really isn't the common mindset. If it was, everyone would be driving huge 7 seater trucks for the edge case where they need to haul some lumber with their 7 person family. Most people buy a car for their typical needs. If they want to move a lot of stuff, they rent a van or a trailer. If you needed to cross the country tonight because of a family emergency you could do that in any car, EV or fossil fuel. A modern EV might take you longer because of charging stops, but when you factor in scheduled breaks of a typical cross country drive, the charging times don't actually add up to a lot more at all. >You're right that most people don't need a 22kW charger for their car, and they can wake up with a full tank every morning, but most people are probably also averse to the idea that their car has a downtime of several hours when they might really need it If you need a full car then you drive to a fast charger and charge it. They exist for this exact purpose of needing a fast charge. I can charge my car to 80% in like 20 minutes.

throw0101a 4y ago
> That really isn't the common mindset. If it was, everyone would be driving huge 7 seater trucks for the edge case where they need to haul some lumber with their 7 person family. > Most people buy a car for their typical needs. If they want to move a lot of stuff, they rent a van or a trailer. The top three selling vehicles in the US are F-150, Ram 1500/2500/3500, and Chevrolet Silverado: * https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g36005989/best-selling-cars-2021/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g36005989/best-selling-car... * https://www.edmunds.com/most-popular-cars/ https://www.edmunds.com/most-popular-cars/ The F-series has been on the top of the list for decades.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Philip-J-Fry 4y ago
  This doesn't hold true for anywhere outside of the US.