9 ms·

I think the 'weakness' of their response is plainly obvious. If criminals can find advantages in this footage, its an opportunity to overhaul training programs

by Arrath 4y ago

I think the 'weakness' of their response is plainly obvious. If criminals can find advantages in this footage, its an opportunity to overhaul training programs and response plans. The training and response was woefully inadequate for this crisis, after all. There should be no reasonable reality in which the release of this footage is suppressed. This is an undeniable tragedy, battening down the hatches and obstinately trying to weather the storm will do no favors for anyone.

akira2501 4y ago
That leads to the most obvious question: "Are your training manuals and materials as closely guarded of a secret?" If not, then your implementation of them, however compromised, is not a secret either.
- kadoban 4y ago
  I've seen some of them passed around. They're not secret as far as I can tell. They pretty obviously are just embarassed by their failure.
  - WaxProlix 4y ago
    There's an outside chance it's even worse than what we know now - maybe they killed a kid or two, or did something otherwise more shameful than expected.
    - kadoban 4y ago
      Yeah, the _best_ attempt at devils advocate I could give them would be that it should be secret just how crappy they are at following their own training/guidance. That's basically complete bullshit though, that's no reason for secrecy.
    - Arrath 4y ago
      > maybe they killed a kid or two This is my sneaking suspicion.
    - jjulius 4y ago
      I mean, they kinda-sorta already did... >“When the cops came, the cop said: ‘Yell if you need help!’ And one of the persons in my class said ‘help.’ The guy overheard and he came in and shot her,” the boy said. “The cop barged into that classroom. The guy shot at the cop. And the cops started shooting.” The police got a student killed, according to the survivor’s story. https://www.vox.com/2022/5/27/23143997/the-uvalde-police-keep-changing-their-story https://www.vox.com/2022/5/27/23143997/the-uvalde-police-kee...
      - squarefoot 4y ago
        "Other parents were pinned to the ground, pepper sprayed, or tasered, said Gomez, who said she managed to run into the school and save her child after convincing the officers to uncuff her." Seriously... WTF! If only they showed the same balls when dealing with the gunman.
- nathantotten 4y ago
  > Are your training manuals and materials as closely guarded of a secret? It seems not: https://www.tcole.texas.gov/sites/default/files/CourseCMU/Active%20Shooter%20-%20SBLE%202195%20course%20Final%201-30-20.docx https://www.tcole.texas.gov/sites/default/files/CourseCMU/Ac...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- panarky 4y ago
  Eventually they will be ordered to release the video, at which point we will learn that much of it is missing, from multiple officers and from the school's cameras simultaneously. We will be expected to believe that officers weren't wearing cameras, or cameras were turned off, or a computer error lost the footage.
- dylan604 4y ago
  It's actually more along the lines of counter-intelligence. You have printed manuals and materials that get leaked so the attackers study those tactics. Then, during the attack, there is total confusion when the police do not react as thought by those training materials. The upper hand now resides with the police /s
giraffe_lady 4y ago
They maintained control with minimal personal risk to themselves. From a "policing realism" perspective that's exactly what police do. Preventing or ending any sort of crime or violence is optional at that point, and they opted not to. This is extremely at odds with how the police want to be perceived, and managing that contradiction is certainly their biggest concern right now. From that perspective it's easy to understand why they want to suppress this information, and who benefits if they get to. These aren't unfortunate dolts who bumbled into a tragic response because they weren't equipped to deal with it. This sort of thing is a predictable result of the training and prioritization police act on every day.
- Arrath 4y ago
  Agreed on all points, and I absolutely abhor the cynical reality. Its why I'm not above calling for purges and complete overhauls of the approach to policing.
- bongoman37 4y ago
- jjulius 4y ago
  >They maintained control with minimal personal risk to themselves. From a "policing realism" perspective that's exactly what police do. Preventing or ending any sort of crime or violence is optional at that point, and they opted not to. Absolutely untrue, and has been for decades. Their hesitation to react and go in is the complete opposite of what they were trained to do, which is go in and eliminate the threat immediately. "The official narrative has shifted from a story of swift response by the local police to one of hesitation and delay that deviated from two decades of training that instructs officers to quickly confront a gunman to save lives, even at a risk to their own."[1] >These aren't unfortunate dolts who bumbled into a tragic response because they weren't equipped to deal with it. Except that, from everything we've learned about this event in the weeks since, they literally were not equipped to deal with it. Police chief didn't bring a radio, their own radios didn't work in the school, they bungled getting a key to the room, they didn't have their tactical materials arrive in a timely manner, I can go on and on. [1]https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/09/us/uvalde-shooting-police-response.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/09/us/uvalde-shooting-police...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
donmcronald 4y ago
I think the problem is that no one wants to take the blame for being wrong or unprepared and the media won't pass up an opportunity to sensationalize mistakes as incompetency, maliciousness, etc.. I wish more of the world could function like the culture adopted by the western airline industry where every incident and investigation is treated as an opportunity to learn and improve the system rather than an opportunity to lay blame. I think it's perfectly reasonable for anyone directly impacted to expect there to be consequences for the lack of preparedness, etc., but I think the big picture needs to be more along the lines of realizing that kind of unpreparedness isn't part of some grand plan or conspiracy and that working to improve the system for next time gives us better overall value (long term) than punishing the people involved. At least for government institutions, I think that kind of system could be mandated as long as employees get the same deal as pilots. In exchange for willful participation, with the goal of improving the overall system, you aren't punished for anything that was an honest mistake, misunderstanding, lack of training, etc..
- BaseballPhysics 4y ago
  > I wish more of the world could function like the culture adopted by the western airline industry where every incident and investigation is treated as an opportunity to learn and improve the system rather than an opportunity to lay blame. Unfortunately, the nature of US politics is such that it's impossible to have reasoned conversations about how to alter these extremely complex and dynamic systems. Entire areas of the solution space are rejected because of ideology, and those rejections, themselves, are highly politically charged. In what should be no great surprise, later, when the problem isn't resolved, fingers get pointed at those who rejected those alternative solutions or pushed for solutions that did not work, while those who previously got in the way of a more fulsome discussion continue to do so because the foundation of their ideology cannot be shaken by real world data. So, yes, it would be nice if the world could function as a reasonable and rational place, but when it comes to wedge issues like this, that simply will not happen without fundamental structural changes to the nature of US politics. All that being said, given Boeing's recent performance, I'd be a little careful to hold up the airline industry as a paragon of rationality and preparedness...
- GloriousKoji 4y ago

by Arrath 4y ago

akira2501 4y ago

That leads to the most obvious question: "Are your training manuals and materials as closely guarded of a secret?" If not, then your implementation of them, however compromised, is not a secret either.

kadoban 4y ago
I've seen some of them passed around. They're not secret as far as I can tell. They pretty obviously are just embarassed by their failure.
- WaxProlix 4y ago
  There's an outside chance it's even worse than what we know now - maybe they killed a kid or two, or did something otherwise more shameful than expected.
  - kadoban 4y ago
    Yeah, the _best_ attempt at devils advocate I could give them would be that it should be secret just how crappy they are at following their own training/guidance. That's basically complete bullshit though, that's no reason for secrecy.
  - Arrath 4y ago
    > maybe they killed a kid or two This is my sneaking suspicion.
  - jjulius 4y ago
    I mean, they kinda-sorta already did... >“When the cops came, the cop said: ‘Yell if you need help!’ And one of the persons in my class said ‘help.’ The guy overheard and he came in and shot her,” the boy said. “The cop barged into that classroom. The guy shot at the cop. And the cops started shooting.” The police got a student killed, according to the survivor’s story. https://www.vox.com/2022/5/27/23143997/the-uvalde-police-keep-changing-their-story https://www.vox.com/2022/5/27/23143997/the-uvalde-police-kee...
    - squarefoot 4y ago
      "Other parents were pinned to the ground, pepper sprayed, or tasered, said Gomez, who said she managed to run into the school and save her child after convincing the officers to uncuff her." Seriously... WTF! If only they showed the same balls when dealing with the gunman.
nathantotten 4y ago
> Are your training manuals and materials as closely guarded of a secret? It seems not: https://www.tcole.texas.gov/sites/default/files/CourseCMU/Active%20Shooter%20-%20SBLE%202195%20course%20Final%201-30-20.docx https://www.tcole.texas.gov/sites/default/files/CourseCMU/Ac...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
panarky 4y ago
Eventually they will be ordered to release the video, at which point we will learn that much of it is missing, from multiple officers and from the school's cameras simultaneously. We will be expected to believe that officers weren't wearing cameras, or cameras were turned off, or a computer error lost the footage.
dylan604 4y ago
It's actually more along the lines of counter-intelligence. You have printed manuals and materials that get leaked so the attackers study those tactics. Then, during the attack, there is total confusion when the police do not react as thought by those training materials. The upper hand now resides with the police /s

giraffe_lady 4y ago

They maintained control with minimal personal risk to themselves. From a "policing realism" perspective that's exactly what police do. Preventing or ending any sort of crime or violence is optional at that point, and they opted not to. This is extremely at odds with how the police want to be perceived, and managing that contradiction is certainly their biggest concern right now. From that perspective it's easy to understand why they want to suppress this information, and who benefits if they get to. These aren't unfortunate dolts who bumbled into a tragic response because they weren't equipped to deal with it. This sort of thing is a predictable result of the training and prioritization police act on every day.

Arrath 4y ago
Agreed on all points, and I absolutely abhor the cynical reality. Its why I'm not above calling for purges and complete overhauls of the approach to policing.
bongoman37 4y ago
jjulius 4y ago
>They maintained control with minimal personal risk to themselves. From a "policing realism" perspective that's exactly what police do. Preventing or ending any sort of crime or violence is optional at that point, and they opted not to. Absolutely untrue, and has been for decades. Their hesitation to react and go in is the complete opposite of what they were trained to do, which is go in and eliminate the threat immediately. "The official narrative has shifted from a story of swift response by the local police to one of hesitation and delay that deviated from two decades of training that instructs officers to quickly confront a gunman to save lives, even at a risk to their own."[1] >These aren't unfortunate dolts who bumbled into a tragic response because they weren't equipped to deal with it. Except that, from everything we've learned about this event in the weeks since, they literally were not equipped to deal with it. Police chief didn't bring a radio, their own radios didn't work in the school, they bungled getting a key to the room, they didn't have their tactical materials arrive in a timely manner, I can go on and on. [1]https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/09/us/uvalde-shooting-police-response.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/09/us/uvalde-shooting-police...

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

donmcronald 4y ago

I think the problem is that no one wants to take the blame for being wrong or unprepared and the media won't pass up an opportunity to sensationalize mistakes as incompetency, maliciousness, etc.. I wish more of the world could function like the culture adopted by the western airline industry where every incident and investigation is treated as an opportunity to learn and improve the system rather than an opportunity to lay blame. I think it's perfectly reasonable for anyone directly impacted to expect there to be consequences for the lack of preparedness, etc., but I think the big picture needs to be more along the lines of realizing that kind of unpreparedness isn't part of some grand plan or conspiracy and that working to improve the system for next time gives us better overall value (long term) than punishing the people involved. At least for government institutions, I think that kind of system could be mandated as long as employees get the same deal as pilots. In exchange for willful participation, with the goal of improving the overall system, you aren't punished for anything that was an honest mistake, misunderstanding, lack of training, etc..

BaseballPhysics 4y ago
> I wish more of the world could function like the culture adopted by the western airline industry where every incident and investigation is treated as an opportunity to learn and improve the system rather than an opportunity to lay blame. Unfortunately, the nature of US politics is such that it's impossible to have reasoned conversations about how to alter these extremely complex and dynamic systems. Entire areas of the solution space are rejected because of ideology, and those rejections, themselves, are highly politically charged. In what should be no great surprise, later, when the problem isn't resolved, fingers get pointed at those who rejected those alternative solutions or pushed for solutions that did not work, while those who previously got in the way of a more fulsome discussion continue to do so because the foundation of their ideology cannot be shaken by real world data. So, yes, it would be nice if the world could function as a reasonable and rational place, but when it comes to wedge issues like this, that simply will not happen without fundamental structural changes to the nature of US politics. All that being said, given Boeing's recent performance, I'd be a little careful to hold up the airline industry as a paragon of rationality and preparedness...
GloriousKoji 4y ago