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This happens every new Android version with OnePlus. OnePlus releases them usually a few months behind the end of initially release cycle getting all the older

This happens every new Android version with OnePlus. OnePlus releases them usually a few months behind the end of initially release cycle getting all the older phones onto the newer build. Covid has been making this worse, plus people left the team when Oppo and OnePlus merged teams. Kinda wish they would just stop doing it, but this is why phones maybe shouldn't ship with a working OS anyways and make the user supply it instead.

rafram 4y ago
> this is why phones maybe shouldn't ship with a working OS anyways and make the user supply it instead. I really hope you’re joking. In what way would that be better for anyone but the most hardcore tinkerers?
- snvzz 4y ago
  Standardization of boot process, driver availability, ease of install. While at it, erradication of shovelware.
  - rafram 4y ago
    How would not shipping with an operating system accomplish those things?
    - Nextgrid 4y ago
      If by law you can't ship your own OS then you have an incentive to make it as easy as possible for third-party OS developers to make it work with your device and to make it as easy as possible for the user to install said third-party OS.
- enriquto 4y ago
  So that you are not betrayed by a software that you just purchased but that you cannot change? In what way allowing this betrayal is better for anyone but the people who benefit from it (e.g. by selling your private data, or whatever their unchangeable proprietary software does)?
  - rafram 4y ago
    Of course users should be allowed to install new operating systems, but there’s no reason for the phone not to come with one at all. You don’t need to boot the stock ROM even once if you don’t want to - just boot into recovery mode and flash a new one right out of the box. A phone shipping without an operating system at all would make it unusable for the vast majority of the general public.
    - pengaru 4y ago
      > A phone shipping without an operating system at all would make it unusable for the vast majority of the general public. You're assuming the bootstrapping process is complicated, manual, and failure-prone though. There's absolutely no reason why the initial boot couldn't simply involve plugging an included usb thumbdrive into the usb port and turning the device on. It comes on in an uninitialized state, finds an appropriate image provided by the vendor in a normalized format on the thumbdrive, tosses on the screen some information and a YES/NO option. DONE. When the vendor is providing the phone and the image, the shit should Just Work. But by requiring this be the initial process, we'd ensure that everyone could always easily install another image on their hardware by the same mechanism. It literally just adds a step as difficult as plugging in the phone to charge when first turning it on.
      - sokoloff 4y ago
        What prevents that initial image from locking the bootloader to prevent the installation of alternate images (possibly by blowing fuses or another OTP mechanism)? Addressing only the first-boot problem doesn't guarantee down the line ability, which seems more important to me than first-boot ability.
        pengaru 4y ago
        If we had regulatory consumer protections at this level, I think it goes without saying the same regulations would require any such locking down during the initial provisioning would require opt-in by the consumer. The intended salient point of my previous comment is there's just no reason for this to be something impossible to navigate for the majority of users. Personally I think it's important for the provisioning to be part of the process for everyone to undergo. When it's effectively part of the unboxing process, it ensures manufacturers invest in maintaining and polishing the functionality. It will be less buggy, it will be less error-prone, and it helps educate the public on the otherwise invisible line separating firmware/software from hardware.
pt_PT_guy 4y ago
> but this is why phones maybe shouldn't ship with a working OS anyways and make the user supply it instead. this enforcement is actually a very good idea!
isodev 4y ago
> this is why phones maybe shouldn't ship with a working OS anyways and make the user supply it instead I think this goes against the main reason people buy phones from mainstream brands. The reason is the features and ecosystem that come with such devices. If you are a tinkerer or prefer to install your custom OS, then you'd choose a "foss" device like the pinephone, librem or other. If you buy a device for convenience, with the expectation that it just works, you buy an iPhone. If you are somewhat in the middle of that spectrum, you consider an Android device where you trade some convenience with the ability to intervene more deeply with how the device works.
- aftbit 4y ago
  >If you are a tinkerer or prefer to install your custom OS, then you'd choose a "foss" device like the pinephone, librem or other. Except the hardware and ecosystem of those suck in comparison to The Big 2 (iPhone and Android). If I could install a custom OS on iPhone, I'd buy one in a heartbeat. Otherwise I'm stuck with AOSP on my Pixel.
  - isodev 4y ago
    > Except the hardware and ecosystem of those suck in comparison to The Big 2 (iPhone and Android). Yes, and the irony is that Apple can afford to develop impressive hardware thanks to their "vertically integrated" offering. People like it and spend a lot of money to have it. Why don't FOSS phones have the budget to create this kind of experience then? Maybe there are ways for this to be improved, or perhaps we shouldn't try to decouple a phone from the ecosystem it was created for. A lot of money and energy is now being pointed at trying to make Apple and Google loosen their grip on hardware. At the same time (in my view), this would not address the root cause, which is that there are no effective means for economic advantage generated by foss software on proprietary hardware to find its way back to the community.
  - usrn 4y ago
    Not having to run Android makes up for the mediocre hardware on the Pinephone IMO. Also Linux has a far more healthy ecosystem than Android.
dagmx 4y ago
> but this is why phones maybe shouldn't ship with a working OS anyways and make the user supply it instead Do you believe this is something most people would want as a product experience, or something most people would be capable of doing?
- chrismorgan 4y ago
  If it were the rule across the board, they’d make it easy and pleasant.
- usrn 4y ago
  Most of these SoCs can boot from SDcards so you'd probably buy a phone+boot disk at the same time.
  - longtimelistnr 4y ago
    I really am not sure most anybody would want to deal with that. Beyond the hassle I’m not sure many people would know what to do

rafram 4y ago

> this is why phones maybe shouldn't ship with a working OS anyways and make the user supply it instead. I really hope you’re joking. In what way would that be better for anyone but the most hardcore tinkerers?

snvzz 4y ago
Standardization of boot process, driver availability, ease of install. While at it, erradication of shovelware.
- rafram 4y ago
  How would not shipping with an operating system accomplish those things?
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    If by law you can't ship your own OS then you have an incentive to make it as easy as possible for third-party OS developers to make it work with your device and to make it as easy as possible for the user to install said third-party OS.
enriquto 4y ago
So that you are not betrayed by a software that you just purchased but that you cannot change? In what way allowing this betrayal is better for anyone but the people who benefit from it (e.g. by selling your private data, or whatever their unchangeable proprietary software does)?
- rafram 4y ago
  Of course users should be allowed to install new operating systems, but there’s no reason for the phone not to come with one at all. You don’t need to boot the stock ROM even once if you don’t want to - just boot into recovery mode and flash a new one right out of the box. A phone shipping without an operating system at all would make it unusable for the vast majority of the general public.
  - pengaru 4y ago
    > A phone shipping without an operating system at all would make it unusable for the vast majority of the general public. You're assuming the bootstrapping process is complicated, manual, and failure-prone though. There's absolutely no reason why the initial boot couldn't simply involve plugging an included usb thumbdrive into the usb port and turning the device on. It comes on in an uninitialized state, finds an appropriate image provided by the vendor in a normalized format on the thumbdrive, tosses on the screen some information and a YES/NO option. DONE. When the vendor is providing the phone and the image, the shit should Just Work. But by requiring this be the initial process, we'd ensure that everyone could always easily install another image on their hardware by the same mechanism. It literally just adds a step as difficult as plugging in the phone to charge when first turning it on.
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      What prevents that initial image from locking the bootloader to prevent the installation of alternate images (possibly by blowing fuses or another OTP mechanism)? Addressing only the first-boot problem doesn't guarantee down the line ability, which seems more important to me than first-boot ability.
      - pengaru 4y ago
        If we had regulatory consumer protections at this level, I think it goes without saying the same regulations would require any such locking down during the initial provisioning would require opt-in by the consumer. The intended salient point of my previous comment is there's just no reason for this to be something impossible to navigate for the majority of users. Personally I think it's important for the provisioning to be part of the process for everyone to undergo. When it's effectively part of the unboxing process, it ensures manufacturers invest in maintaining and polishing the functionality. It will be less buggy, it will be less error-prone, and it helps educate the public on the otherwise invisible line separating firmware/software from hardware.

pt_PT_guy 4y ago

> but this is why phones maybe shouldn't ship with a working OS anyways and make the user supply it instead. this enforcement is actually a very good idea!

isodev 4y ago

> this is why phones maybe shouldn't ship with a working OS anyways and make the user supply it instead I think this goes against the main reason people buy phones from mainstream brands. The reason is the features and ecosystem that come with such devices. If you are a tinkerer or prefer to install your custom OS, then you'd choose a "foss" device like the pinephone, librem or other. If you buy a device for convenience, with the expectation that it just works, you buy an iPhone. If you are somewhat in the middle of that spectrum, you consider an Android device where you trade some convenience with the ability to intervene more deeply with how the device works.

aftbit 4y ago
>If you are a tinkerer or prefer to install your custom OS, then you'd choose a "foss" device like the pinephone, librem or other. Except the hardware and ecosystem of those suck in comparison to The Big 2 (iPhone and Android). If I could install a custom OS on iPhone, I'd buy one in a heartbeat. Otherwise I'm stuck with AOSP on my Pixel.
- isodev 4y ago
  > Except the hardware and ecosystem of those suck in comparison to The Big 2 (iPhone and Android). Yes, and the irony is that Apple can afford to develop impressive hardware thanks to their "vertically integrated" offering. People like it and spend a lot of money to have it. Why don't FOSS phones have the budget to create this kind of experience then? Maybe there are ways for this to be improved, or perhaps we shouldn't try to decouple a phone from the ecosystem it was created for. A lot of money and energy is now being pointed at trying to make Apple and Google loosen their grip on hardware. At the same time (in my view), this would not address the root cause, which is that there are no effective means for economic advantage generated by foss software on proprietary hardware to find its way back to the community.
- usrn 4y ago
  Not having to run Android makes up for the mediocre hardware on the Pinephone IMO. Also Linux has a far more healthy ecosystem than Android.

dagmx 4y ago

> but this is why phones maybe shouldn't ship with a working OS anyways and make the user supply it instead Do you believe this is something most people would want as a product experience, or something most people would be capable of doing?

chrismorgan 4y ago
If it were the rule across the board, they’d make it easy and pleasant.
usrn 4y ago
Most of these SoCs can boot from SDcards so you'd probably buy a phone+boot disk at the same time.
- longtimelistnr 4y ago
  I really am not sure most anybody would want to deal with that. Beyond the hassle I’m not sure many people would know what to do