10 ms·
Ask HN: Where are all the computers from the 1980's and 1990's?
The concept of eWaste and electronics recycling didn't come in until the 21st century (at a guess).
And yet there were millions of computers in offices all around the world in the 1980s and 1990s.
Where are all those machines?
Presumably they all got dumped into landfill.
When I thought about it, since there was no electronic recycling or ewaste, the theoretically ALL the computers from the 1980's and 1990's are still here - millions of them.
I wonder if any/many could be recovered in archaeological recovery digs, and if any would have survived such an ordeal reasonably intact.
- the_only_law 4y agoMany are sitting in my house rn.
- Stevvo 4y agoSome of them are collecting dust in attics and garages; I know my parents still have a Pentium 166 from 1997.
- ghaff 4y agoI've (slowly) learned that the attic or basement ewaste just sits there for years and eventually has to be gotten rid of anyway at some point. Even if someone would get some genuine pleasure out of it in some manner, connecting with that person is probably way more trouble than most people are going to go to.
- charles_kaw 4y agoThe vast majority of computers were commodity boxes that are extremely well documented, emulated, and the ones that exist today are in private collections. The interesting stuff is also being held by private collectors in large amounts. Around 2000-2010, a lot of the interesting 80s and 90s stuff started becoming cheap and was snapped up by any interested party, the rest was landfilled. If you are getting into this now, you are too late - hit up ebay and pay inflated prices. Speaking of landfills, most of those computers had RTC on board, and were powered by batteries, which tend to explode and "rot" away the board. It's likely very few of them will be salvageable in an easy-to-repair way if they sit for another 20 years.
- TacticalCoder 4y ago> Speaking of landfills, most of those computers had RTC on board, and were powered by batteries, which tend to explode and "rot" away the board. It's likely very few of them will be salvageable in an easy-to-repair way if they sit for another 20 years. Yup. During the lockdown I had time to waste and checked various YouTube videos and they scared me enough that I started checking my old computers for batteries. Found one in an old Apple computer (I forgot if it's a Classic or Classic II or Plus: one of those "inside" a 9" CRT) and indeed the battery had started leaking. I took it out, cleaned what I could, and the computer was still working. But a few more years and it would have been badly damaged. And it's not just batteries: capacitors may sometimes start leaking and destroying the PCB too.
- srvmshr 4y agoSlightly OT: But do modern computers have RTC? If not, how is time keeping done?
- lewisflude 4y agoSemi-related, I know of several people in the mechanical keyboard community who are constantly hunting for keyboards from the 70s, 80s, 90s. In some cases the switches alone can be worth $10-20+ each to dedicated collectors, not to mention Cherry keycaps that are compatible with modern mechanical keyboard builds. I am also curious on if there are any relics of computing history just sitting there in landfill. Ultimately as a society I do think moving towards devices that can almost entirely be recycled is the only responsible way forwards.
- charles_kaw 4y ago>mechanical keyboard community who are constantly hunting for keyboards from the 70s, 80s, 90s Wish they wouldn't. The keyboards are part of a set, including the computer itself, and many of those computers require those keyboards. I wince every time some funko popper discards a perfectly good machine but keeps the keyboard.
- lewisflude 4y agoI absolutely agree. In my eyes, any true enthusiast should respect preserving the computer as much as the associated keyboard. I've not personally witnessed a keyboard hobbyist throw away a matching computer but keep the keyboard, but I do believe it probably happens in some circles. I think people either 1. Know the keyboard they want, and want to restore it to have in a collection 2. Know which keyboard model numbers have specific parts/switches to harvest 3. Want the computer, and fixing the keyboard is a part of a much bigger project / a means to an end Generally with harvesting, people usually replace the parts they've taken out with compatible parts, to make the original still usable with compatible computers. People only ever really harvest if they know there's a huge supply out there in the wild.
- AussieWog93 4y ago> I absolutely agree. In my eyes, any true enthusiast should respect preserving the computer as much as the associated keyboard. Not saying it's ideal, but that's capitalism. If something is more valuable as parts than a whole, it'll be stripped down for parts.
- AussieWog93 4y agoThere's a decent amount circling around amongst private collectors. The good ones go for a pretty penny too! I run a used retro games business, and will regularly sell stuff like a C64, Amiga, IBM Clone or SpectraVision to one particular group on Facebook for $200+ in as-is/untested condition. The rare stuff goes for even more. I recently got $300 for an old Atari ST floppy drive. The guys that buy them will often do things like de-yellow the plastic and change all the caps, and there are even new upgrades being made for many of the old PCs today (HDMI mods being a big one). In terms of where they come from, I know that some of them make their way back from overseas e-waste (there's one guy in India in particular I'm thinking of that does junked Game Boys and vintage toys too), and there are plenty just sitting in sheds covered in dust.
- sm001 4y agoI have an SWTP 6800 computer from around 1978, with keyboard, monitor, mag tape drive. Condition TBD. I could sell it at a reasonable price to a collector.
- simne 4y agoYou just don't imagine, how huge landfills are, and how small was number of computers in 1980s. I mean, in 1980s, only first world seen computers in large quantities. In 3rd world, computers was exotic until late 1990s or even 2000s. So for example, China have not desktop computers culture, they jumped from analog culture to smartphones. In some countries like Russia, computers before middle 1980s was toys for military, because they gives magic possibilities, like make supersilent submarine screw. Large share of first world computers of 1980s-1990s, was "donated" to countries of 2-3 worlds, because first don't want to pay for utilization, and others are agree to got new for them technology "for free". Important thing, that old-new technology means, it will not have official support, no spare parts, no upgrades, so large share of old computers become donors of old parts for other old computers. Only in 1st world, people pay really much attention, to save history, to make right collections of old tech, which are alive, not just static empty cases. And old tech does not survive without care. So you could assume, 99% of old computers which not so fortunate to become part of some collection, are now dead. For archeology, I'm in Ukraine regularly talking with collectioners and with engineers, and even now with military, who now regularly got pieces of Russian hardware from 1960s to current. In many cases it is just impossible to figure out something more than approx time period, when piece of hardware made; in some cases could re-engineer what hardware done.
- zokier 4y agoFound an Ars article that has some sales figures over time: https://arstechnica.com/features/2005/12/total-share/ https://arstechnica.com/features/2005/12/total-share/ Basically the industry was already shipping million computers yearly at the beginning of 80s and >100M units at the end of 90s. So I wouldn't say it's all that small numbers here
- FranksTV 4y agoCompared to the global volume of garbage, it's pretty small.
- simne 4y ago> industry was already shipping million computers yearly at the beginning of 80s This is true for 1st world, which is just about Billion people. In the rest world (now about 5 Billions), computers was not seen much, before end of 90s. You may not believe, but I know lot of people older than 40, who does not have any pre-smartphone computer experience. And their smartphone experience also limited, they don't use any downloaded apps, only what preinstalled and simple enough for them. Imagine, large share of civilization have opportunity to meet AI, but have not any digital experience before.
- sys_64738 4y agoThey used to get shipped to China as e-Waste but probably in a landfill somewhere.
- contingencies 4y agoIn China anything of this ilk is stripped for metal. The cases would have been the first thing to go. Perhaps the boards would have been melted for copper, but now perhaps this is less profitable and/or more difficult to achieve with increasing environmental enforcement operations in developed coastal provinces.
- thenthenthen 4y agoThe Basel Action Network has some videos documenting this practice [0]. Now there is an import ban on e waste and plastic in China and indeed increased enforcement. This of course does not make the problem disappear. [0] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L00YUD9d5ug https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L00YUD9d5ug
- selcuka 4y ago
- TradingPlaces 4y agoI can’t speak for others, but some of mine are in my mini Mac museum Apple ][c PowerBook Duo 210 Original Barbie’s Toilet Seat iBook G4 Cube Original iPod Original iPhone All the towers had to go :(
- herodoturtle 4y ago> Original Barbie’s Toilet Seat iBook Wut.
- TradingPlaces 4y agohttps://lowendmac.com/2012/the-clamshell-ibook-beautiful-but-lacking/ https://lowendmac.com/2012/the-clamshell-ibook-beautiful-but...
- dylan604 4y agoI had never heard this term before either, but knew immediately which model was being referenced.
- marban 4y agoI also own all of these except for the ][c — The Cube has held up remarkably well and I'm still using it on a daily basis. The Clamshell however used some really cheap plastics since it basically started to fall apart just by sitting on the shelf.
- criddell 4y agoThere’s a Rework commercial running now [1] that shows a person with a wall of computers as decor and I kind of love it. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNWnz2rpUf4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNWnz2rpUf4
- pluc 4y agothey're all busy mining retrocoins in some farm in Kazakhstan
- spacemanmatt 4y agoWelcome to the CRC-enforced blockchain!
- greenbit 4y agoThink about the waste streams they were embedded in. Any typical household would probably not emit more than one unwanted computer a year, even into the 90s. So you'd expect that the density of C64s or Atari 800s or whatever to be very low in the landfills. I.e. each one would likely be surrounded by a whole lot of utter crap, all of it moist and probably not pH neutral, and 30 years in that environment .. "it ain't gonna be pretty" OTOH, it was extremely common for people to discard them by yard sales, or give them to an nephew etc, donate them to others. Even ones put on the curb for the trash collection sometimes got scavenged. So a lot of these things had 2nd lives. Point of this being that over time there were instances of collectors who would amass piles of these things, and when such an individual decided to declutter, maybe, just maybe you'd find a whole lot of hardware buried together. But such concentrations would be the exception, and the state of preservation would still be abysmal. Personally, I think the time and effort would be better spent recreating new hardware per the old specs.
- dylan604 4y agoStill have my original Atari 2600 and NES system. There’s 2 items that never made it to a land fill
- PopAlongKid 4y ago> Any typical household would probably not emit more than one unwanted computer a year, Without trying to look it up, I suspect corporate desktop computers in the time period (IBM PC/XT/PS2, Compaq luggable, AT&T 6300) were a very significant part of the waste stream, and I think most of those just went directly to landfills, with only a few "2nd lives" when sold to employees.
- toast0 4y agoMy high school got a large donation of corporate junked computers circa 1998 (was used for an after school technical program in computer repair), and I'm sure the corporations took a nice write off. Larger companies with enough computers to matter for this purpose likely have ways to get rid of capital equipment that aren't just throwing it away, and there's no reason computers wouldn't fit into that. For those computers that did end up in landfills, I imagine they wouldn't be very salvageable, there's lots of crushing processes that happen on the way to the landfill, and while most of the other trash will get crushed first, cause metal boxes are pretty sturdy, it doesn't take much to crack a motherboard and then it's not nearly as useful.
- lucidguppy 4y agoMy thoughts bounce around on retro computing. It's fun, but there's so much more you can do with an RPI, and so much more support. The times I try to play with emulators and the like are short, and the interest fades pretty quickly. Ultimately I feel like a apple II type setup on an RPI <at boot up> would scratch a lot of itches. Yes - I know that there are plenty of libraries or just do it in the browser stuff. But there's just a brutal reduction in barriers in a switch on to basic system that would let much more people through the door.
- jacknews 4y agoThe point is not really to just run the old software, which as you say is much easier in an emulator. There's an element of 'antique' in the allure; A genuine Queen Anne-era writing desk has something that an MDF reproduction doesn't, almost a physical connection to the past.
- zulban 4y agoAnyone interested in this must watch the two LGR videos on a huge warehouse called "computer reset" that has been clearing out. Here's the first: https://youtu.be/rvM82T3C2Ik https://youtu.be/rvM82T3C2Ik
- Nefarius 4y agoThey're in my basement ;]
- c22 4y agoAre you my mom?
- dylan604 4y agoA buddy of mine’s company still runs off of an old 486PC in a closet. Their entire company’s business records/inventory/etc are all in some DOS program that “is perfectly fine” and needs no upgrading. The owner is something like 700 years old and has decided that if that computer ever dies, he’ll just close the company. <hangsheadinshame>
- lupire 4y agoThere's a story linked from HN about a Torah music software company that went through this life cycle.
- LargoLasskhyfv 4y agoSeven...hundred?
- dylan604 4y agoyou missed the key words "something like"
- implements 4y agoNot an expert, but Qemu [a] emulates 486 systems and I think might boot a disk image taken using DD [b]. The dilemmas are: 1) Dare I disturb this hardware, particularly if it hasn’t been power-cycled for years? (calculated risk - but you need some kind of plan for when the inevitable failure happens if jobs are at stake) 2) Am I confident to attach the disk to a unix box and take an image? (Find and ask a unix guru - but it’s fairly straightforward) [a] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QEMU https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QEMU [b] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dd_(Unix) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dd_(Unix)
- giaour 4y agoWouldn't it be cheaper to run an emulated DOS box on modern hardware? I can't imagine an old 486 is very energy efficient.
- WheelsAtLarge 4y ago
- Jaruzel 4y agoThey've all gone to Silicon Heaven. :)
- WheelsAtLarge 4y agoMany of the personal home computers are in storage areas. The owners hoping that at some point they will find a use for them since they are still in great shape. Of course we know they have no use but it's hard to get rid of them.
- ksherlock 4y agoApple buried ~2,700 unsold Lisa computers in a Logan, Utah landfill in 1989.
- l33tman 4y agoI have an Amiga 1000 and I got a bit tear-eyed when I saw one in Stranger Things season 4! I had a hard-drive on it, an old RLL-encoded with ST506 interface (predates ATA?), and it booted up fine just last month even though the drive is from like 1988. I have much more recent PC disks that won't boot up anymore. Having said that, even though all of my asm/bare-metal skills come from hacking the A1000 in asm for several years and I should have warm fuzzy feelings about it, it's a dreary experience starting it now and trying to do anything really.. It's fun for like 10 minutes. Even starting it in an emulator is an annoying experience. The UI on modern computers might look superficially the same as these old Amigas, Ataris and Macs, but a boatload of small details have been hammered out and super-optimized since then for usability.. Back on topic, I think a lot of the computers are still in the attics of middle-aged people. Or older.
- ksaj 4y agoI'm late to the game, but reading through the comments I'm surprised nobody mentioned the companies that harvest metals from old computer equipment and industrial machines. There is one just outside of Toronto (in Burlington) that takes in large lots of old computers, electronics, wiring, etc. for that purpose alone. Cases get flattened and recycled as scrap metal. When you pass the place on the Go train, you can see mountains of variously processed metals, and what looks like probably crushed/ground up plastics. I imagine they keep the rendered gold elsewhere, though.
- rkagerer 4y agoOne or two are sitting on my shelves.
- simne 4y agoBTW for about archeology, this remembers me ancient writings on birch bark. They was not time-prone, so mostly just disappear. And now people ask, are you sure, existed such civilization? How it is possible, we know https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism but no journals, no blogs of ancient people, who done such smart things?
- Beeb79 4y agoI remember the sad time my old high school started to retire all the BBC Micros, Acorn 30*’s and all the Amstrad PCWs. They all just got thrown into a huge industrial skip and carted off to be crushed into our local landfill. When I think of all those lovely Acorn computers just being destroyed. We did of course salvage quite a few systems three of which I still have and fire up every now and then. This was in the early 1990s nothing got recycled.
- gcheong 4y agoI have an Apple II+ and an Amiga 500 sitting in my parent's basement storage.