11 ms·

Honestly it feels like the floor is about to fall through. On waiting for services: I was actually (and still technically am) on an NHS waitlist which I've bee

Honestly it feels like the floor is about to fall through. On waiting for services: I was actually (and still technically am) on an NHS waitlist which I've been on for the last 5 years, my new employer is just paying a private doctor to handle everything which begins next week. Just wanted to put that out there to give an idea to the non-UK HN audience of how bad things have got. The only other state that comes to mind where typical service delivery times were measured in years was the DDR in the late 80s, and we all know how that ended. One other thing few talk about is the recent noticeable drop in the ability of the state to enforce it's laws (especially when those laws are seen to be morally wrong), for example there's been multiple documented instances now of immigration raids being stopped by hundreds of people surrounding the vans until the police leave (https://news.sky.com/story/peckham-man-arrested-for-immigration-offences-released-after-protesters-block-van-12632214 https://news.sky.com/story/peckham-man-arrested-for-immigrat...) and jury nullification is starting to become a noticeable thing even for those who are arrested (a prominent example being the Colston Four: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colston_Four https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colston_Four) - the fact the state can't even consistently enforce its laws anymore speaks to its rapidly diminishing power, even domestically. Maybe I'm just mad and have read too much into everything, but it feels like the British state is a few mistakes away from putting itself into a slow and irreversible collapse. Maybe it will take a few years so that a noticeable disparity forms between the UK and it's neighbours like Ireland and etc, but it feels it's slowly marching that way.

seibelj 4y ago
M2Ys4U 4y ago
The Coulston Four outcome wasn't the result of jury nullification, the defendants were acquitted because they had a lawful defence. I suppose it's possible that the jury found that they found the defendants guilty of breaking the law but returned a "perverse verdict" anyway (jury deliberations are secret after all), but their behaviour certainly had the possibility of being lawful and the jury were directed to decide whether or not it was lawful.
- intunderflow 4y ago
  Maybe, I guess we'll never know as their deliberations are secret but I can see what you mean. A better example would have been for me to use the case of Extinction Rebellion and Shell: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/apr/23/jury-acquits-extinction-rebellion-protesters-despite-no-defence-in-law https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/apr/23/jury-acq...
908B64B197 4y ago
> On waiting for services: I was actually (and still technically am) on an NHS waitlist which I've been on for the last 5 years, my new employer is just paying a private doctor to handle everything which begins next week. Don't you pay something like 60% taxes for this? > of immigration raids being stopped by hundreds of people surrounding the vans until the police leave I suppose illegal migrants are ineligible for public healthcare. Else it's a little counter productive for people to block immigration enforcement isn't it?
- intunderflow 4y ago
  > Don't you pay something like 60% taxes for this? Yep, my effective tax rate is roughly 55% over the year I've previously applied to go work in the US, particularly at Stripe. Basically got told unless I have something ridiculous (so they can get me an EB-1A) the waiting times for Visas is way too long.
  - villaaston1 4y ago
    Are you sure your tax rate is 55%? You’d have to be earning £500k+ and paying off a Plan 4 student loan for that to be the case.
    - intunderflow 4y ago
      Part higher, part additional rate + 9% student loan repayment + national insurance contributions I'm nuking the student loan as fast as possible, especially with the interest rates being near extortion, so hopefully that will mean I get more take home in the future
      - mrcartmeneses 4y ago
        Ah so you’re choosing to repay a loan faster and calling that tax. Be honest please
        intunderflow 4y ago
fallingfrog 4y ago
If I was a politician and I wanted to get rid of the NHS, I would first starve it for resources then use the resulting anger as an excuse to privatize it and sell its assets to some waiting American corporation for pennies on the dollar. I would expect that's what is about to happen.
- MattPalmer1086 4y ago
  That appears to be the Tory strategy in general. They are ideologically opposed to the state providing anything. Except lucrative contracts for their mates, of course.
neilwilson 4y ago
"On waiting for services: I was actually (and still technically am) on an NHS waitlist which I've been on for the last 5 years, my new employer is just paying a private doctor to handle everything which begins next week" Presumably you've connected the two. If there is a supply side shortage of doctors - and there is - yet if you have the money you can jump the queue, then all that does is increase the delay to those without money. It's like the priority queue at Alton Towers, which in itself is an affront to one of the core British values - that we are all the same really and we all stand in line awaiting our turn. The solution is to abolish the fast track option and reorder the priority queue based upon need, not ability to pay. That is, and remains, the founding value of the NHS. It's how we get the rich to pay more. They wait the same time as the poor person with the same issue, but their time is more valuable. Private medicine doesn't increase the capacity of the system. It tilts the system towards those who can afford a FastTrack Pass at the expense of those that can't.
- imtringued 4y ago
  A lot of doctors leave Germany because of bad pay. If private doctors have higher salaries that is an incentive for people to become doctors for other reasons than just passion which is a fickle thing.
- benj111 4y ago
  I suppose to my mind it depends on who benefits. I'm not averse to people getting private treatment if there are reasonable wait times within the NHS and the NHS gains from that. Where it gets to the point of NHS dentists where it's a struggle to get one, because they're all private. That is an issue.
- AdrianB1 4y ago
  Private medicine increases the capacity of the system in other countries (including mine). Making a doctor career not attractive is decreasing the capacity of the system and UK is doing that; there used to be a large number of doctors emigrating my country for UK, that flux is almost zero now. I cannot even mention why this is happening without being downvoted to hell, it is an unpopular fact.

seibelj 4y ago

M2Ys4U 4y ago

The Coulston Four outcome wasn't the result of jury nullification, the defendants were acquitted because they had a lawful defence. I suppose it's possible that the jury found that they found the defendants guilty of breaking the law but returned a "perverse verdict" anyway (jury deliberations are secret after all), but their behaviour certainly had the possibility of being lawful and the jury were directed to decide whether or not it was lawful.

intunderflow 4y ago
Maybe, I guess we'll never know as their deliberations are secret but I can see what you mean. A better example would have been for me to use the case of Extinction Rebellion and Shell: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/apr/23/jury-acquits-extinction-rebellion-protesters-despite-no-defence-in-law https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/apr/23/jury-acq...

908B64B197 4y ago

> On waiting for services: I was actually (and still technically am) on an NHS waitlist which I've been on for the last 5 years, my new employer is just paying a private doctor to handle everything which begins next week. Don't you pay something like 60% taxes for this? > of immigration raids being stopped by hundreds of people surrounding the vans until the police leave I suppose illegal migrants are ineligible for public healthcare. Else it's a little counter productive for people to block immigration enforcement isn't it?

intunderflow 4y ago
> Don't you pay something like 60% taxes for this? Yep, my effective tax rate is roughly 55% over the year I've previously applied to go work in the US, particularly at Stripe. Basically got told unless I have something ridiculous (so they can get me an EB-1A) the waiting times for Visas is way too long.
- villaaston1 4y ago
  Are you sure your tax rate is 55%? You’d have to be earning £500k+ and paying off a Plan 4 student loan for that to be the case.
  - intunderflow 4y ago
    Part higher, part additional rate + 9% student loan repayment + national insurance contributions I'm nuking the student loan as fast as possible, especially with the interest rates being near extortion, so hopefully that will mean I get more take home in the future
    - mrcartmeneses 4y ago
      Ah so you’re choosing to repay a loan faster and calling that tax. Be honest please
      - intunderflow 4y ago

fallingfrog 4y ago

If I was a politician and I wanted to get rid of the NHS, I would first starve it for resources then use the resulting anger as an excuse to privatize it and sell its assets to some waiting American corporation for pennies on the dollar. I would expect that's what is about to happen.

MattPalmer1086 4y ago
That appears to be the Tory strategy in general. They are ideologically opposed to the state providing anything. Except lucrative contracts for their mates, of course.

neilwilson 4y ago

"On waiting for services: I was actually (and still technically am) on an NHS waitlist which I've been on for the last 5 years, my new employer is just paying a private doctor to handle everything which begins next week" Presumably you've connected the two. If there is a supply side shortage of doctors - and there is - yet if you have the money you can jump the queue, then all that does is increase the delay to those without money. It's like the priority queue at Alton Towers, which in itself is an affront to one of the core British values - that we are all the same really and we all stand in line awaiting our turn. The solution is to abolish the fast track option and reorder the priority queue based upon need, not ability to pay. That is, and remains, the founding value of the NHS. It's how we get the rich to pay more. They wait the same time as the poor person with the same issue, but their time is more valuable. Private medicine doesn't increase the capacity of the system. It tilts the system towards those who can afford a FastTrack Pass at the expense of those that can't.

imtringued 4y ago
A lot of doctors leave Germany because of bad pay. If private doctors have higher salaries that is an incentive for people to become doctors for other reasons than just passion which is a fickle thing.
benj111 4y ago
I suppose to my mind it depends on who benefits. I'm not averse to people getting private treatment if there are reasonable wait times within the NHS and the NHS gains from that. Where it gets to the point of NHS dentists where it's a struggle to get one, because they're all private. That is an issue.
AdrianB1 4y ago
Private medicine increases the capacity of the system in other countries (including mine). Making a doctor career not attractive is decreasing the capacity of the system and UK is doing that; there used to be a large number of doctors emigrating my country for UK, that flux is almost zero now. I cannot even mention why this is happening without being downvoted to hell, it is an unpopular fact.