15 ms·
A forgery scandal that’s roiling PC game collecting
- haunter 4y agoThe fact that all of these are in pristine condition should have been a black flag earlier. The whole commercial grading system is a joke but if only a handful of copies exist at all then it's extremely surprising that all of them are mint or near mint in condition after more than 30 years.
- TylerE 4y agoHardly unique to gaming. In the guitar world it's a running joke that only 5000 of the the 1500 1959 Gibson Les Paul's survive. ($$$$, 6 digit prices for real ones is the rule, and top examples go for $500k+).
- jandrese 4y agoIt has been said you could build a nice house out of the fragments of the True Cross on display throughout the world.
- paulpauper 4y agoI wonder how much fragments would be worth at auction (i'm sure Paul Allen tried and was denied)
- sweettea 4y agoOne Charles de Fleury catalogued pieces of the true cross in the 1800s and found them to sum to 2% of a plausibly sized cross, not the oft-repeated claim that they add up to a large ship, or a nice house: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Cross#Dispersal_of_relics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Cross#Dispersal_of_relics paragraph 6. While perhaps biased, it does seem plausible that a cataloguing of such claimed relics today would add up to a similar total volume.
- bombcar 4y agoI suspect the saying comes from a time more in the past when many many false relics would abound. Once the fervor around them died off, any ones deemed fake would disappear from circulation and the total amount would dwindle.
- jjoonathan 4y agoWell, the total amount would dwindle.
- whatshisface 4y agoSince the fragments were said to come from a single piece of wood in Constantinople (see the article linked above), it is not that surprising that their sum would be reasonable. Clearer-cut and a little more entertaining are the thirty or more "holy nails:" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Nail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Nail That said, I'd like to know the carbon date on those wooden fragments.
- TheCoelacanth 4y agoThe famous John Calvin quote about relics comes from 1543, and many of the other quotes come from before 1000, while that catalogue is from the 1870. In between comes the Protestant Reformation, more than a century of religious wars across all of Europe where one side in many cases actively sought to destroy relics and the gradual conversion to Islam of many densely populated Christian areas. A catalogue from the 1870 is next to worthless for telling us how many relics existed in the early 1500s.
- Archelaos 4y agoBut everyone knows, that the number of relics increases over time. For each one lost, two new ones appear. So if we had 2% of the true cross in 1870, perhaps we had only 1% in 1543. Someone needs to update the catalogue. When we see how much we have today, we can estimate, when the cross crosses 100%. In the year 3451? (The Hobbes theory.)
- gumby 4y agoAnd the buddha would have to have been 10 feet tall for all the relics in the various stupas of the world to be real. Frankly though, I consider authenticity overrated.
- xsmasher 4y ago> “And don't succumb too much to the spell of these cases. I have seen many other fragments of the cross, in other churches. If all were genuine, our Lord's torment could not have been on a couple of planks nailed together, but on an entire forest.' 'Master!' I said, shocked. 'So it is, Adso. And there are ever richer treasuries. Some time ago, in the cathedral of Cologne, I saw the skull of John the Baptist at the age of twelve.' 'Really?' I exclaimed, amazed. Then, siezed by doubt, I added, 'But the Baptist was executed at a more advanced age!' 'The other skull must be in another treasury,' William said, with a grave face. I never understood when he was jesting.” ― Umberto Eco, The Name of the Rose
- mikepurvis 4y agoChristopher Buckley (of Thank You For Smoking fame) did a funny book recently called The Relic Hunter that satirizes this situation in a Middle Ages context.
- _the_inflator 4y agoSame goes for vinyl. I love techno music from the 90th. It seems that there is an abundance of vinyl that magically survived 20 years of niche existence. Especially records from the legendary Harthouse label, seems to be ubiquitously available. Harthouse was famous for its limited edition policy and restricted selling of its records. They were very selective and that's how the famous "sound of Frankfurt" was born: access to Harthouse records was limited, and distribution took mainly place here in Frankfurt. It was tough back then to buy certain records even in the famous Delirium store. Nowadays you simply place an order in the Internets...
- panspermia 4y agoYou're just describing Discogs and a genre with little to no demand, now, in the present time.
- pwython 4y agoI just watched a video a few days ago comparing a $200 guitar to a $200,000 (Hauser) guitar. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPY9Mxg3OJQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPY9Mxg3OJQ Long story short, go for the $700-$2k guitar unless you're an "art collector" that will never play it. Then again, I doubt many people can tell the difference between a $200 guitar and a $700 one.
- TylerE 4y agoI'd say there's some wiggle room there - I own lots of guitars, the most expensive of which would retail for about $5k today (I paid maybe half that when I got it ~15 years ago). Once you get past a certain price, you're paying more for different (e.g. custom build) rather than better. I'm a weirdo in that I generally like modern (even ultramodern, I own a Strandberg) - guitars for playability - thinner necks, comfort contours, that sort of thing, but vintage for tone...so I have a couple I've commissioned that try to combine the best of both worlds. Here are two of mine: https://i.imgur.com/pVQiOfC.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/pVQiOfC.jpeg They both look like weird, but both have vintage roots... The one on the left is heavily inspired by vintage Gibsons in the ways that mattger... neck and body are korina, the top (very not vintage) is flamed Hawaiian Koa. The one on the right is basically my take on a Fender Strat... but headless (better weight distribution, and allows for the..) and with an excellent modern tremolo bridge.
- wilsonnb3 4y agoIt is astounding how good of a guitar you can get for a few hundred dollars these days. My Yamaha FG800 cost $200 and is probably 70-80% as good as my Martin that cost $1300. There is even less of a difference between cheap and expensive electric guitars. Especially if you learn to do a good setup yourself and replace the pickups.
- TylerE 4y agoI would disagree, unless you're willing to rewire the whole thing. Just about every cheap electric I've ever seen has shitty pots, bad or no shielding, maybe even bad grounding. Hum sucks.
- 4y ago
- jdsfighter 4y agoIt's also crazy how disparate the values of older guitars are as well. I inherited a pristine 1975 Gibson Les Paul Deluxe Blue Sparkle; one of 250 made. Despite its rarity, it's not a super high demand guitar, so it barely clears 4-5 figures.
- arprocter 4y agoI just found your Reddit post - that's a beauty Back in the day my old man parted ways with a 60s Tele - he doesn't appreciate being reminded about it
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- Victerius 4y agoAllow me to understand. The packaging is identical to the originals, the CDs are identical, the games on those CDs are identical, but the product is considered a forgery? Why do vintage PC game collectors care whether the product in their hand was manufactured in 1995 by the original company or in 2021 by someone in their garage? Is the goal to play the game or to acquire bragging rights about an old object just because it's an original copy?
- 101008 4y agoBecause that's the point of collecting. You do not purchase the material, but the history of the item. I say this as a book collector of first edition (among other stuff): I understand second printing may be identical to the first printing (or even better in some quality aspects), but the thrill of buying something that has history is what makes interesting.
- Victerius 4y agoWell, if we were talking about century old paintings or art pieces I might understand, but 20-30 year old video games....... It's just not the same.
- LosWochosWeek 4y ago> It's just not the same. To you.
- synu 4y agoIs there some specific date where you would allow for collectors to value an object? A 40 year old book? A 50 year old car? A Magic the Gathering card from 31 years ago? An arcade console from 35? I’m curious what the calculus is here because it seems quite specific.
- Victerius 4y agoIt's quite subjective. It comes down to how popular culture romanticizes a thing. Popular culture has romanticized 50 year old cars, or old books, but it hasn't romanticized 35 year old gaming consoles. Why that is, I couldn't say.
- mattw2121 4y agoOne of the largest regrets I have is getting rid of all my Apple ][e stuff. I kept it for years in attics as I moved from house to house. I had a couple of ][e's, disk drives, ImageWriter printer, Apple monitors, and so many original software titles including manuals and boxes. (Of course I had 2-3 large boxes of copies too). About 5 years ago I was moving house and just got rid of everything because I was tired of moving it. I started regretting it 6 months later and even more today.
- bowmessage 4y agoGot rid of it - did you sell it, donate it, throw it away?
- mattw2121 4y agoJust left in the last attic :(
- bowmessage 4y agoeveryone, check your attics, quick!
- ghaff 4y agoThe problem is that the stuff probably isn't worth much--and it probably isn't worth much to you either if it's gathering dust in the attic. I keep a few old game boxes in my office bookcase. I have a few old computers up in the attic. (An Osborne someone gave me and a couple old DG/Ones. Also a huge pile of laserdiscs and player.) Probably someone would love to take off my hands and might even pay a few dollars. But there's a very real limit to how much effort I'm going to put into finding that person locally.
- bombcar 4y agoThe "huge pile" can actually make it easier - lay the laserdiscs out on the floor, take a picture, sell the whole thing as a lot on eBay. Sure there might be some rare ones or something, but if there is that's just all the more likely to help it sell.
- Ekaros 4y agoI really wonder how many of these one can make and sell and is it really worth all the effort to go thorough the whole thing? At least from time and resources spend. Probably, still seems like quite a bit of work to get even this level.
- donthellbanme 4y ago
- bombcar 4y agoI could certainly see someone doing something like this to keep the real one for themselves at low to no cost. Get super rare game for $10k, make as perfect a copy of it as you can, sell the copy for $10k, keep the original, even if privately. But if you're doing that, you wouldn't need to make disks containing obvious fakes.
- interlocutor2 4y agoI'm not a collector. I don't understand I don't understand paying a premium for a rare or old item that is easily replicated. The same goes for art forgeries. Why not buy a reproduction? There is no difference in the functional value of the item before and after this revelation. I assume these games are available for emulation. I'm sick of people bsing and scamming each other by turning fun things into investment vehicles.
- danuker 4y agoNot only is there no functional advantage to buying the real thing, there is no easy way to prove for certain that you have the real thing, so even speculation is difficult.
- hydrok9 4y agoThe thrill of owning something significant is the reason. It's like owning a piece of history.
- lupire 4y agoIt's more like owning an NFT... The value of history is the story, which doesn't need to be attached to the object.
- yieldcrv 4y agoOne thing I find interesting about NFT collections is that the only reason it gets detractors attention is because it works …. so well? Like, we have no idea how much the baseball card issuing organization made, especially not in real time. We have no idea the total supply, or revenue or trading volume. In NFTs we have that instantly. I think the NFT space just provides transparency into the size of the existing collectibles market. Even the proxies we have for digital gaming stuff is just buried deep in quarterly reports of a few publicly traded companies. Most of the facepalm worthy NFT headlines would be non-news if we even had the ability to compare it to the pre-existing collections market.
- datalopers 4y agoClearly they should have included an authenticity NFT printed on synthetic polymers that can survive heat and strong electrical fields with embedded NFC chips for multisig validation.
- drcode 4y agoI'd love to invest in a really nice fossil sometime to put on my desk, maybe a small dinosaur skull or an unusually cool looking trilobite But I can never do this, because I could never feel certain that I didn't purchase a forgery
- Liquix 4y ago"You know, I know this steak doesn't exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy and delicious. After nine years, you know what I realize..? Ignorance is bliss." - Cypher, The Matrix
- krustyburger 4y agoI’m, uh, not sure you’re supposed to identify with that character.
- barry-cotter 4y agoThe artist is dead.
- Doxin 4y agoI mean clearly in the movie he's one of the bad guys, but that doesn't mean he never makes any valid points. The whole "who cares if it's fake if it is indistinguishable from real" standpoint is perfectly reasonable. Killing several people to achieve it less so.
- shultays 4y agoHe had points that makes sense, living in matrix sure beats Zion. IIRC in the last matrix movie there were humans that picked matrix over zion (might be wrong, it was such a firgettable movie)
- abracadaniel 4y agoGet a really nice replica, and know for sure :) I have one of these, and it looks great. https://www.dinosaursrocksuperstore.com/collections/dinosaur-claws/products/deinonychus-dinosaur-claw-fossil-replica https://www.dinosaursrocksuperstore.com/collections/dinosaur...
- dubswithus 4y agoIt's not hard for a charismatic person to fool a lot of very intelligent people. Hardy Rodenstock fooled Michael Broadbent. https://www.amazon.com/Billionaires-Vinegar-Mystery-Worlds-Expensive/dp/0307338789/ https://www.amazon.com/Billionaires-Vinegar-Mystery-Worlds-E...
- xwowsersx 4y agoPardon my ignorance, but can someone explain what is forged exactly? The packaging and/or CD or disks are forged?
- popotamonga 4y agoI still have an unopened nes with supermario+pistol and duck hunt i was given when i was 8 wonder if its worth anything
- blastro 4y agothere’s more to this story
- jamiek88 4y agoFor sale, baby’s shoes - never worn.
- popotamonga 4y agodad never let us open it, forever. Seems only worth like 2k, not worth the hassle, will stay for next generation.
- indrora 4y agoThere's more to this story
- barnacled 4y agoAs somebody who has started collecting ultima box sets recently (pure nostalgia loved them as a kid) it's been mad to see how ultima 5 has gone from £50 when I bought it a few years ago to maybe even £250+ now. I was hoping I could got all of the ultimas but this makes me realise that 1 - 3 are probably out of reach (let alone akalabeth!)
- teddyh 4y agoEven when they are genuine, collectible games are currently overvalued as part of what is probably a huge scam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvLFEh7V18A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvLFEh7V18A
- aeturnum 4y agoThere's not exactly a smoking gun but Ricciardi doesn't come out looking great. With small insular communities like this, I wonder how often people end up making counterfeits they never intend to sell. Maybe you're having a dry streak or you've been swearing up and down you'll something, and you tell yourself there won't be any harm in making a fake and telling the guys you got it. Before the recent value explosion in the market there wouldn't be much value in it - but people like their hobbies and like to boast and it seems very normal. There are lots of legitimate reasons to come out of this kind of experience feeling like you don't want to have anything to do with the scene - but also it could be that what was intended as a private forgery has gotten out of control.
- tomcam 4y agoNot sure I count as a “collector”. I own many hundreds of musical instruments, but the vast majority are meant to be played. But I never pay more for something than I think its “intrinsic“ worth to be precisely because this scenario. I wouldn’t pay much extra for a guitar that John Lennon had allegedly played, for example, because what if that turned out not to be true? I have purchased duplicates of instruments for parts or preservation though.
- vintermann 4y agoApropos musical instruments with a story: I've recently listened a lot to an album called "The Unfinished Violin" by the English folk musician Sam Sweeney. One of the rare good Spotify recommendations I've gotten in later years. Anyway, I wondered about the name, so I looked it up. It turns out the violin he performs on was made by a young violin maker called Richard Howard, but never assembled by him: he was drafted for WW1, and died in 1917 at the battle of Messines. I think that's the kind of history that matters, that adds a certain context to the music. To everyone in this thread saying the history of a thing doesn't matter: if something like that doesn't matter, what does?
- tomcam 4y agoIncredible story! Although I personally avoid most instruments with significant history because I’d be a poor steward. I just want to play and study them.
- larryett 4y agoFraud and collectibles practically go hand in hand. The FBI estimates 70 percent of all autographed sports memorabilia are frauds.
- sigstoat 4y ago> made it difficult to believe that he would betray the community a lot of people are confused, and seem to think that purporting to share an interest makes a community. they're disappointed time and time again.