8 ms·

Just read what he wrote? > Black students are 66% less likely to be identified as gifted compared to white students with similar test scores. Black, Latinx, an

Just read what he wrote? > Black students are 66% less likely to be identified as gifted compared to white students with similar test scores. Black, Latinx, and Native American students are far less likely to attend a school that even offers a gifted program.

chernevik 4y ago
How is that an answer? If someone isn't meeting the qualifications they aren't in. What's "unacceptable" about that?
- jeremyjh 4y ago
  Are there qualifications other than test scores?
  - fnordpiglet 4y ago
    Apparently race given the assertion of similar test scores
  - wccrawford 4y ago
    There are unwritten ones, at least. As I said in my other post, in my school you were taken out of regularly classes, but still had to learn those things and do that work. That means the student has to agree to work 20% harder, usually at home, where they may not have that luxury. There are probably other considerations that aren't coming to mind at the moment, too, that also affect the number of children in Gifted programs.
  - derac 4y ago
    In my experience you are nominated to take an IQ-ish test and let in based on that score. I assume they mean test scores on regular coursework?
- orpheansodality 4y ago
  > compared to white students with similar test scores
- Robotbeat 4y ago
  > with similar test scores > with similar test scores > WITH SIMILAR TEST SCORES
  - throwaway81348 4y ago
    Your point?
    - UncleMeat 4y ago
      Presumably test scores are a not terrible proxy for qualification. So if black and hispanic students of similar qualification are not being admitted into these programs, then the programs are not actually equitably enrolling people.
  - fein 4y ago
    I had to look around for the source of this, and I can't find the "with similar test scores" part in the Vanderbuilt site article on the Vanderbuilt study this is based on. It says 66% less likely, but the "similar test scores" part isn't in the same paragraph. I really dislike that it is so difficult to find the source of these statements in modern media, as the news articles I read didn't even cite the study, I had to go googling for it. What I found: https://news.vanderbilt.edu/2016/01/18/teachers-race-affects-gifted-program-selections/ https://news.vanderbilt.edu/2016/01/18/teachers-race-affects... and of course the link to the gov data source in that article is broken: http://https//nces.ed.gov/ecls/ http://https//nces.ed.gov/ecls/ Edit: I see where they pulled the line from. Misleading at best as the "tests" they are talking about are not gifted assessment tests, but rather standardized testing which I don't think is that great of an indicator. I was in the gifted program during middle school, and that was predicated by a few admittance tests, one of them being IQ.
    - femiagbabiaka 4y ago
      If you read three paragraphs of the article you linked you can see the statement written in plain english: > However, controlling for math and reading scores did not have the same effect for black students. In fact, black students continued to be assigned to gifted programs half as often as white peers with identical math and reading achievement. If you read to the end, the paper is literally linked: https://cdn.vanderbilt.edu/vu-news/files/20190417222934/Grissom_AERAOpen_GiftedStudents1.pdf https://cdn.vanderbilt.edu/vu-news/files/20190417222934/Gris...
- UncleMeat 4y ago
  Because the systems which identify students and enable them to meet the admissions requirements are massively unequal. I'll give an example. I attended a gifted program starting in 3rd grade. I went to an elementary school for 1st and 2nd grade that was almost entirely white with some asian kids. Part of the mechanism for selecting students for the gifted program was a letter from the student's counselor, teacher, and principal. My mom noticed that some schools were sending way more kids to the GT program than others. Several schools basically never sent any kids. No surprise, there were more black and hispanic kids at the schools. BUT these schools did not have a lack of students with high SOL scores or grades. It turned out that the process of identifying students and writing letters was letting these kids down. A few years of local activism to adjust the process and suddenly a bunch of kids from these other schools were being admitted to the GT program and succeeding. Activists recently tried to adjust the admissions criteria for TJHSST, a magnet school in the area, to be a "merit lottery." This says that you set some minimum qualification (minimum GPA and accelerated math coursework) and then select students at random from that pool. This proposal was called racist against south and east asian students and activists were called enemies of excellence by various people like Scott Aaronson. I was personally identified as having potential for going to TJ at age four. My parents paid a lot of money for me to have tutoring specifically for the admissions test. In the above example, black and hispanic students with similar qualifications (test scores) are not receiving the same access to accelerated programs. The point is that the mechanisms by which we define qualifications and select students really really matters and can encode all sorts of inequities.
  - chernevik 4y ago
    The answer would be to improve the development of those students who are underdeveloped -- not change criteria for the identification of potential. This is, of course, far more complicated, and involves difficult problems. Far easier to sweep it all under the rug by calling attention to qualifications "unacceptable".
    - UncleMeat 4y ago
      In my personal experience agitating for change in this space, it is precisely the same people who resist change in admissions criteria and who resist change in grants for equitable early development resources. And in the example I listed for early GT admissions, there was no need for developing "underdeveloped" students. They were already developed. They just had systems that didn't enable them to get through the gate to the GT program.
derac 4y ago
Unacceptably white is still a horrible way to phrase this. Is the NBA unacceptably black? Why don't we remove basketball courts from inner cities and cut off black kid's feet /s eye roll BTW, I realize he is arguing for the opposite of this. edit: If you think I am racist or something let me spell it out as I did in another comment: It is not unacceptable when white children have opportunities. It is unacceptable when black children do not.
- whatshisface 4y ago
  That is a bad analogy because the NBA is not the only accessible path to a stable middle class life while school, for many people, is.
  - googlryas 4y ago
    Not even close to true. Going into a trade is a great way to get into a comfortable middle class life. And in those trades, you'll commonly find people who did horrible in school, and thought they were idiots because of it.
    - b112 4y ago
      Yes, some trades pay way more, have more available jobs, and have better working conditions (work hours, etc) than PhDs in a variety of sciences.
    - davewritescode 4y ago
      Not everyone is cut out to be a plumber or an electrician. The ultimate goal should be to provide better education for everyone so that all students have as many available options by the time they're ready to pick a career path. Also, I hate these comments from white collar folks about blue collar jobs being the answer to everything. Yes we need them, but we also need to be honest that the average plumber is going to have a harder time working until 65 than an office worker.
      - googlryas 4y ago
colechristensen 4y ago
Are they less likely to be identified because they they are treated differently or because they go to schools that don’t offer those programs?
mikece 4y ago
Sounds like the problem might be with those who are selected to identify the "gifted" students. I am less interested in racial correlations to being identified as "gifted" and more interested in attributes such as whether the student is from a two-parent household, whether they are considered poor, whether they attend a local school or are transported to one outside of their neighborhood, etc. I suspect that we lose out on identifying many gifted children because issues at home and mere survival interfere with their ability to grow and develop academically.
- harles 4y ago
  This assumes being gifted is something innate and simply needs to be brought out. I don’t think that’s the case.
  - mikece 4y ago
    A person with a latent talent which isn't identified and developed has no advantage over the person who doesn't have the talent at all. If we as a society can't do what it reasonable and prudent to identify and nurture such people then we all lose.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
daenz 4y ago
I dug up the study, in case anyone is interested https://cdn.vanderbilt.edu/vu-news/files/20190417222934/Grissom_AERAOpen_GiftedStudents1.pdf https://cdn.vanderbilt.edu/vu-news/files/20190417222934/Gris... What's interesting that is not mentioned is page 15: a black student with a black teacher is still much less likely to be identified as gifted. even less than a white student with a non-white teacher. internalized racism?
- tpoacher 4y ago
  more like different schools, the difference reflecting the sociodemographics of the reflected areas rather than racial IQ differences.
- toyg 4y ago
  Probably more like black teachers with black students are more likely to exist in poor areas where identifying "giftedness" is lower on the list of priorities.
charlieyu1 4y ago
How conveniently that the writer omits Asians.
- baisq 4y ago
  And Jews.
paulpauper 4y ago
ppl keep overlooking this part. it shows how important it is to read slowly and carefully.
TimPC 4y ago
When I was in grade 3 there was a standardized test for gifted. While standardized tests do have some racial disparity that disparity seems to be far smaller than letting teachers nominate students for a gifted evaluation rather than having it be universal.
tpoacher 4y ago
And then also click the provided link, which leads to a summary of the report, claiming that "this is unlikely to reflect teacher prejudice, but availability of 'gifted programs' in predominantly black schools". In which case, the solution is "fund more gifted programs in schools that lack them", not "defund existing gifted programs". Which is kinda what the article's author started to argue but never quite got there in the end.
- karaterobot 4y ago
  No fair actually reading the source material, we're just here to yell at each other fruitlessly and solely on the basis of our preexisting ideas.
mmmpop 4y ago
So you're implying that the conclusion of "unacceptable whiteness" is self-evident by simple examination of these two points... or what? Perhaps "unacceptably lacking in Black students" is a less divisive way to say this, unless the decisiveness were intended and surely that's not the case.
mnw21cam 4y ago
Forgive me if this seems all too simple to me. The solution is very clearly stop doing that then. There's a lot of value in having a gifted track in schooling. Throwing that away because it is currently inaccurate at identifying students that are best suited to it is a stupid idea. Make it accurate at identifying the students that are best suited to it instead.
- bena 4y ago
  The problem, as always, is people. You can't self-select to be evaluated. Your parents can advocate, but they ultimately don't decide either. Although I think they can turn down the evaluation, I'm unclear on that though. The first hurdle is getting the teacher to not only recognize that the child may be gifted, but to make the recommendation to administration. Then it is administration who ultimately makes the call on whether or not to evaluate the kid. And teachers are more likely to recommend white students than black students. And this may not even be something they're consciously aware of doing. Because a lot of this is based on the teachers' perceptions of students. If you have a good rapport with a student, you're more likely to recommend them to be evaluated. If you are constantly butting heads with a kid, or if the kid is just quietly doing their work, you're not going to be inclined to recommend them. Regardless of how well they are doing in class. I was not evaluated until partway through my freshman year of high school and the only reason I was was because the teacher who ran the Quiz Bowl team got everyone who made it on the team who wasn't already in the gifted program evaluated. Otherwise, I probably would not have been evaluated at all.
- colinmhayes 4y ago
  That is exactly what the article says...
- jeremyjh 4y ago
  Yes, that is why the SP was written.
adolph 4y ago
That is not the quote from tfa. The quote is "The current population of students we identify as academically gifted and talented is unacceptably whiter and wealthier than the actual student population of academically gifted and talented students should be." The author's focus on a particular racial classification seems incongruent with facts, given that students with another racial group are also over-represented in "Gifted Programs."
johndfsgdgdfg 4y ago
I have a very simple solution for LatinX group and it's also about equity. Like ALL other immigrants groups LatinX group should have to go through proper immigration process. Then we will see equity in immigration and equity in education.
concordDance 4y ago
Got a link to the specific paper and description of how it was done? Trying to chase it down just got me to this: https://cdn.vanderbilt.edu/vu-news/files/20190417222934/Grissom_AERAOpen_GiftedStudents1.pdf https://cdn.vanderbilt.edu/vu-news/files/20190417222934/Gris... Which seems like it just is saying that the proportion assigned to gifted programs was lower than what the average test score would suggest (notable when compared to hispanics), but hispanics could have a wider distribution (or a bimodal one), so this seems like a shoddy test. The correct check of the hypothesis would be to find the test score threshhold above which 50% of students get into the gifted program and see if this threshhold varies by race... but I can't find anywhere this is done.

chernevik 4y ago

How is that an answer? If someone isn't meeting the qualifications they aren't in. What's "unacceptable" about that?

jeremyjh 4y ago
Are there qualifications other than test scores?
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  Apparently race given the assertion of similar test scores
- wccrawford 4y ago
  There are unwritten ones, at least. As I said in my other post, in my school you were taken out of regularly classes, but still had to learn those things and do that work. That means the student has to agree to work 20% harder, usually at home, where they may not have that luxury. There are probably other considerations that aren't coming to mind at the moment, too, that also affect the number of children in Gifted programs.
- derac 4y ago
  In my experience you are nominated to take an IQ-ish test and let in based on that score. I assume they mean test scores on regular coursework?
orpheansodality 4y ago
> compared to white students with similar test scores
Robotbeat 4y ago
> with similar test scores > with similar test scores > WITH SIMILAR TEST SCORES
- throwaway81348 4y ago
  Your point?
  - UncleMeat 4y ago
    Presumably test scores are a not terrible proxy for qualification. So if black and hispanic students of similar qualification are not being admitted into these programs, then the programs are not actually equitably enrolling people.
- fein 4y ago
  I had to look around for the source of this, and I can't find the "with similar test scores" part in the Vanderbuilt site article on the Vanderbuilt study this is based on. It says 66% less likely, but the "similar test scores" part isn't in the same paragraph. I really dislike that it is so difficult to find the source of these statements in modern media, as the news articles I read didn't even cite the study, I had to go googling for it. What I found: https://news.vanderbilt.edu/2016/01/18/teachers-race-affects-gifted-program-selections/ https://news.vanderbilt.edu/2016/01/18/teachers-race-affects... and of course the link to the gov data source in that article is broken: http://https//nces.ed.gov/ecls/ http://https//nces.ed.gov/ecls/ Edit: I see where they pulled the line from. Misleading at best as the "tests" they are talking about are not gifted assessment tests, but rather standardized testing which I don't think is that great of an indicator. I was in the gifted program during middle school, and that was predicated by a few admittance tests, one of them being IQ.
  - femiagbabiaka 4y ago
    If you read three paragraphs of the article you linked you can see the statement written in plain english: > However, controlling for math and reading scores did not have the same effect for black students. In fact, black students continued to be assigned to gifted programs half as often as white peers with identical math and reading achievement. If you read to the end, the paper is literally linked: https://cdn.vanderbilt.edu/vu-news/files/20190417222934/Grissom_AERAOpen_GiftedStudents1.pdf https://cdn.vanderbilt.edu/vu-news/files/20190417222934/Gris...
UncleMeat 4y ago
Because the systems which identify students and enable them to meet the admissions requirements are massively unequal. I'll give an example. I attended a gifted program starting in 3rd grade. I went to an elementary school for 1st and 2nd grade that was almost entirely white with some asian kids. Part of the mechanism for selecting students for the gifted program was a letter from the student's counselor, teacher, and principal. My mom noticed that some schools were sending way more kids to the GT program than others. Several schools basically never sent any kids. No surprise, there were more black and hispanic kids at the schools. BUT these schools did not have a lack of students with high SOL scores or grades. It turned out that the process of identifying students and writing letters was letting these kids down. A few years of local activism to adjust the process and suddenly a bunch of kids from these other schools were being admitted to the GT program and succeeding. Activists recently tried to adjust the admissions criteria for TJHSST, a magnet school in the area, to be a "merit lottery." This says that you set some minimum qualification (minimum GPA and accelerated math coursework) and then select students at random from that pool. This proposal was called racist against south and east asian students and activists were called enemies of excellence by various people like Scott Aaronson. I was personally identified as having potential for going to TJ at age four. My parents paid a lot of money for me to have tutoring specifically for the admissions test. In the above example, black and hispanic students with similar qualifications (test scores) are not receiving the same access to accelerated programs. The point is that the mechanisms by which we define qualifications and select students really really matters and can encode all sorts of inequities.
- chernevik 4y ago
  The answer would be to improve the development of those students who are underdeveloped -- not change criteria for the identification of potential. This is, of course, far more complicated, and involves difficult problems. Far easier to sweep it all under the rug by calling attention to qualifications "unacceptable".
  - UncleMeat 4y ago
    In my personal experience agitating for change in this space, it is precisely the same people who resist change in admissions criteria and who resist change in grants for equitable early development resources. And in the example I listed for early GT admissions, there was no need for developing "underdeveloped" students. They were already developed. They just had systems that didn't enable them to get through the gate to the GT program.

derac 4y ago

Unacceptably white is still a horrible way to phrase this. Is the NBA unacceptably black? Why don't we remove basketball courts from inner cities and cut off black kid's feet /s eye roll BTW, I realize he is arguing for the opposite of this. edit: If you think I am racist or something let me spell it out as I did in another comment: It is not unacceptable when white children have opportunities. It is unacceptable when black children do not.

whatshisface 4y ago
That is a bad analogy because the NBA is not the only accessible path to a stable middle class life while school, for many people, is.
- googlryas 4y ago
  Not even close to true. Going into a trade is a great way to get into a comfortable middle class life. And in those trades, you'll commonly find people who did horrible in school, and thought they were idiots because of it.
  - b112 4y ago
    Yes, some trades pay way more, have more available jobs, and have better working conditions (work hours, etc) than PhDs in a variety of sciences.
  - davewritescode 4y ago
    Not everyone is cut out to be a plumber or an electrician. The ultimate goal should be to provide better education for everyone so that all students have as many available options by the time they're ready to pick a career path. Also, I hate these comments from white collar folks about blue collar jobs being the answer to everything. Yes we need them, but we also need to be honest that the average plumber is going to have a harder time working until 65 than an office worker.
    - googlryas 4y ago

colechristensen 4y ago

Are they less likely to be identified because they they are treated differently or because they go to schools that don’t offer those programs?

mikece 4y ago

Sounds like the problem might be with those who are selected to identify the "gifted" students. I am less interested in racial correlations to being identified as "gifted" and more interested in attributes such as whether the student is from a two-parent household, whether they are considered poor, whether they attend a local school or are transported to one outside of their neighborhood, etc. I suspect that we lose out on identifying many gifted children because issues at home and mere survival interfere with their ability to grow and develop academically.

harles 4y ago
This assumes being gifted is something innate and simply needs to be brought out. I don’t think that’s the case.
- mikece 4y ago
  A person with a latent talent which isn't identified and developed has no advantage over the person who doesn't have the talent at all. If we as a society can't do what it reasonable and prudent to identify and nurture such people then we all lose.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

daenz 4y ago

I dug up the study, in case anyone is interested https://cdn.vanderbilt.edu/vu-news/files/20190417222934/Grissom_AERAOpen_GiftedStudents1.pdf https://cdn.vanderbilt.edu/vu-news/files/20190417222934/Gris... What's interesting that is not mentioned is page 15: a black student with a black teacher is still much less likely to be identified as gifted. even less than a white student with a non-white teacher. internalized racism?

tpoacher 4y ago
more like different schools, the difference reflecting the sociodemographics of the reflected areas rather than racial IQ differences.
toyg 4y ago
Probably more like black teachers with black students are more likely to exist in poor areas where identifying "giftedness" is lower on the list of priorities.

charlieyu1 4y ago

How conveniently that the writer omits Asians.

baisq 4y ago
And Jews.

paulpauper 4y ago

ppl keep overlooking this part. it shows how important it is to read slowly and carefully.

TimPC 4y ago

When I was in grade 3 there was a standardized test for gifted. While standardized tests do have some racial disparity that disparity seems to be far smaller than letting teachers nominate students for a gifted evaluation rather than having it be universal.

tpoacher 4y ago

And then also click the provided link, which leads to a summary of the report, claiming that "this is unlikely to reflect teacher prejudice, but availability of 'gifted programs' in predominantly black schools". In which case, the solution is "fund more gifted programs in schools that lack them", not "defund existing gifted programs". Which is kinda what the article's author started to argue but never quite got there in the end.

karaterobot 4y ago
No fair actually reading the source material, we're just here to yell at each other fruitlessly and solely on the basis of our preexisting ideas.

mmmpop 4y ago

So you're implying that the conclusion of "unacceptable whiteness" is self-evident by simple examination of these two points... or what? Perhaps "unacceptably lacking in Black students" is a less divisive way to say this, unless the decisiveness were intended and surely that's not the case.

mnw21cam 4y ago

Forgive me if this seems all too simple to me. The solution is very clearly stop doing that then. There's a lot of value in having a gifted track in schooling. Throwing that away because it is currently inaccurate at identifying students that are best suited to it is a stupid idea. Make it accurate at identifying the students that are best suited to it instead.

bena 4y ago
The problem, as always, is people. You can't self-select to be evaluated. Your parents can advocate, but they ultimately don't decide either. Although I think they can turn down the evaluation, I'm unclear on that though. The first hurdle is getting the teacher to not only recognize that the child may be gifted, but to make the recommendation to administration. Then it is administration who ultimately makes the call on whether or not to evaluate the kid. And teachers are more likely to recommend white students than black students. And this may not even be something they're consciously aware of doing. Because a lot of this is based on the teachers' perceptions of students. If you have a good rapport with a student, you're more likely to recommend them to be evaluated. If you are constantly butting heads with a kid, or if the kid is just quietly doing their work, you're not going to be inclined to recommend them. Regardless of how well they are doing in class. I was not evaluated until partway through my freshman year of high school and the only reason I was was because the teacher who ran the Quiz Bowl team got everyone who made it on the team who wasn't already in the gifted program evaluated. Otherwise, I probably would not have been evaluated at all.
colinmhayes 4y ago
That is exactly what the article says...
jeremyjh 4y ago
Yes, that is why the SP was written.

adolph 4y ago

That is not the quote from tfa. The quote is "The current population of students we identify as academically gifted and talented is unacceptably whiter and wealthier than the actual student population of academically gifted and talented students should be." The author's focus on a particular racial classification seems incongruent with facts, given that students with another racial group are also over-represented in "Gifted Programs."

johndfsgdgdfg 4y ago

I have a very simple solution for LatinX group and it's also about equity. Like ALL other immigrants groups LatinX group should have to go through proper immigration process. Then we will see equity in immigration and equity in education.

concordDance 4y ago

Got a link to the specific paper and description of how it was done? Trying to chase it down just got me to this: https://cdn.vanderbilt.edu/vu-news/files/20190417222934/Grissom_AERAOpen_GiftedStudents1.pdf https://cdn.vanderbilt.edu/vu-news/files/20190417222934/Gris... Which seems like it just is saying that the proportion assigned to gifted programs was lower than what the average test score would suggest (notable when compared to hispanics), but hispanics could have a wider distribution (or a bimodal one), so this seems like a shoddy test. The correct check of the hypothesis would be to find the test score threshhold above which 50% of students get into the gifted program and see if this threshhold varies by race... but I can't find anywhere this is done.