11 ms·

California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

ahoy 4y ago
This SF district attorney recall thing is a really good example of the media's power to manufacture a story. Even if you accept the premise that crime stats rise or fall in response to DA policies, those stats mostly fell during Boudin's tenure. But if you show the video of someone robbing a convenience store (in oakland! another city entirely!) enough times on loop, you can convince enough voters that Something Must Be Done.
- derwiki 4y ago
  The number of employees who quit the DA’s office because of Chesa was not manufactured, and is ultimately why I voted the way I did.
- CryptoPunk 4y ago
- ardit33 4y ago
  It seems that the people of SF don't agree with you. Crime didn't fell, prosecutions did. It is like the Trumpian 'if you don't test, then covid doesn't exist'. There you go the clear graph: https://www.economist.com/united-states/2022/06/05/why-san-franciscos-clash-with-its-district-attorney-matters https://www.economist.com/united-states/2022/06/05/why-san-f...
- AdrianB1 4y ago
  If you don't prosecute anyone, crime stats fall. Why? Because nobody will care to report crimes knowing they will not be prosecuted.
- quartesixte 4y ago
  Crime stats as presented and as experienced can diverge quite heavily. I think the one thing with the data is how much crime it takes to make a neighborhood feel unsafe. And my hypothesis is that the threshold is very, very low. Like double digits low. It doesn’t take much to rattle the psyche of a community. But sure. Crime falls by 40% during a DA’s tenure (hypothetical example) so all is well right? But what is the absolute number and what does that absolute number translate to in the real world?
- avalys 4y ago
  Statistics are not reality. Crime stats fell because the DA was so tolerant of crime, people stopped bothering to report anything but the most serious ones.
  - beebmam 4y ago
    Is there evidence for this claim?
    - upsidesinclude 4y ago
      Have you been to SF? That's your evidence
    - worker_person 4y ago
      The evidence was stolen. Person filing the complaint was mugged. Mugger was hailed as a hero.
    - vineyardmike 4y ago
      There is tons of AnecData suggesting this is true. The recalled DA himself admitted to not reporting his car breaking because he didn’t think it’d be prosecuted. I can name roughly 10 people in my life who said they didn’t bother. Another 5 who went to police only to be told by them that there was nothing that would happen and that they shouldn’t waste time on finishing the paperwork. To complete the data, I know only 1 person who fully reported a crime, and it was an extreme violent crime.
    - elefanten 4y ago
      The pervasive testimony from local law enforcement that the DA's office won't even respond about prosecuting most offenses. Not just minor offenses -- theft, burglaries, assault and at least one manslaughter/homicide case. The second hand testimony from residents and business owners saying the police are telling them not to expect them to be able to prosecute anyone. But there's also the evidence of what Boudin openly said and advocated. Sometimes the message and the stated intent are worth replacing regardless of how effective they've been at their goals.
- newbie2020 4y ago
  This is a great case of where statistics don’t tell the whole story. I’ve seen multiple crimes in SF that I don’t bother reporting since I know the police won’t do anything about it. So up this years’ stats by at least a few notches in the vandalism, car breakin, theft, sale of illegal goods, and bodily harm inflicted upon another categories…
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > This SF district attorney recall thing is a really good example of the media's power to manufacture a story Given the degree to which opposition to Boudin comes from other progressive Democrats, including politicians, in SF, the article we are discussing about a “message” to “Democrats and the nation” is an example of that.
basisword 4y ago
I hope this is the beginning of a shift back towards the centre on both the right and the left.
- ssully 4y ago
  In what way does this give you hope that the right is moving more center?
  - basisword 4y ago
    It gives me hope that the left is. If the left shifts more central and becomes more palatable to centre right people than the far right, then the right also needs to shift.
    - pmoriarty 4y ago
      This reminds me of a comic strip I saw during Obama's term, when he was hailed as a great compromiser. It showed Obama standing opposite a Republican, and the Republican saying: "If you take a step towards me, I'll take a step towards you." So Obama takes a step towards the Republican, who doesn't move and just says again: "If you take a step towards me, I'll take a step towards you."
      - minsc_and_boo 4y ago
        AKA shifting the Overton Window: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window
        moistly 4y ago
        Alas, the young do not recognize how very far the window has shifted, because they weren’t around twenty, thirty, forty years ago.
    - dathinab 4y ago
      but the left didn't shift left in a relevant degree, they are more right then most center parties in the EU. Its right which shifted so far right that it might seem the left shifted away. A lot of things coming from the republican party, of bring tolerated by the republican party on recent years are uncanily similar to how Hitler proceeded before he started mass murdering (like in the rethoric of speach and willingness to commit violence etc.)
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
prettyStandard 4y ago
https://archive.ph/C8dlL https://archive.ph/C8dlL
dathinab 4y ago
war on crime causes crime, draconic penalties do not prevent or even majorly reduce crime if a there is a long list of crime causing things which are not fixed. Like in no specific order: poverty, bleak future, failed "common" education system, state supported/tolerated exploition of citizens, failing police, falling justice system (if you ask they are meant to protect citizens), systematic deep rooted discrimination, toleration of fascism
- AdrianB1 4y ago
  What is toleration of fascism? Most people I talked to don't even know what fascism is, but they use the term very liberally. Do you have national-socialists in California?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - dathinab 4y ago
    facism is far-right authoritarian ultra-nationalism national-socialist are one movement which is fascist, they are by far not the only one. (Nazis are fascist with socialist paint coat). The US never had (internally) a problem with nazis, I think. But it does have a problem with white supremacist. It also does have a problem with religious extremist, most times Christian based. Both of this groups have quite a bit of overlap and have often strong fascist tendencies. And sure California might be one of the US states better of. Tbh. especially with the last statement I was more thinking about some other US states.
    - swader999 4y ago
      Another aspect of the definition is the marriage of state and corporation. Seeing shades of that since Covid started.
    - engineer_22 4y ago
      -> facism is far-right authoritarian ultra-nationalism Colloquially, this is what everyone understands when using the term fascist, but it's not quite in line with the history. 'Fascism' is a pejorative dog whistle, when people hear it they think "enemy" - because in WWII the Italian and German governments were fascist. In fact, fascism, as I understand it, developed as a "third way" on the European continent. It was a rejection of capitalism as dominated by wealthy US, English interests, and of Communism. It's interesting that it developed in an area of Europe geographically juxtaposed in the middle of two powerful capitalist and communist fronts. Fascism was a reaction to domination by foreign power - so yes, naturally it's nationalistic. It also has a component of strong integration of nation and economy. The fasces is a binding together, metaphorically a combination of social, political, and economic institutions. Initially, it was an attempt to strengthen the nation, to reclaim power over the national destiny, and make good for the people of that country. Of course, in hind site, we can see that some truly awful deeds were committed by some truly awful people, and we should be vigilant to prevent that from happening again. Unfortunately, it's a hard thing to predict, and even harder to prevent. It of course becomes harder if the name of fascism is misused in partisan political contexts because the nuance and history of the term is quickly lost.
JohnClark1337 4y ago
rossdavidh 4y ago
I think Democrats at the national level underestimate how much inner-city Democratic mayors, city councils, school boards, and district attorneys determine their image as a party. If suburban swing voters, when commuting into the city center to work, shop, go to a show, etc. see homeless encampments and vacant storefronts, it's going to hit the Democrats' image as a party that can run things. Republicans in city government tend not to be in big cities, they are more often in suburbs and small towns, which don't have the same kind of homeless problem, and thus don't have the same kinds of challenges projecting an image of being a safe, lawful community. I'm sure it's a solvable problem for Democrats, but first they have to resolve to address it, rather than just wishing that voters didn't feel this way.
- ModernMech 4y ago
  Do Republican run jurisdictions not have a problem with homelessness, or is it just less visible? Are they shifting their homeless burden to places like cities with more programs and support for homelessness? Because I've never actually heard a Republican plan for dealing with homelessness that doesn't involve criminalizing it and sweeping it under the rug where no one can see it.
  - ahoy 4y ago
    To be fair, that's largely the democratic plan too. See NYC/LA/etc. D's and R's alike hate the homeless.
  - askin4it 4y ago
    If only Republicans would use their nearly infinite influence to do something we can all get behind
  - caycep 4y ago
    well..rumors of 1 way bus tickets to LA... Small town police departments are notorious for running "undesirables" out of their town...redlining and zoning keeping certain people from buying real estate...things like that.
  - zozbot234 4y ago
penneyd 4y ago
That's an odd headline because in California it's really Democrats sending a message on crime. Boudin in theory had some good ideas, in practice he was a joke.

ahoy 4y ago

This SF district attorney recall thing is a really good example of the media's power to manufacture a story. Even if you accept the premise that crime stats rise or fall in response to DA policies, those stats mostly fell during Boudin's tenure. But if you show the video of someone robbing a convenience store (in oakland! another city entirely!) enough times on loop, you can convince enough voters that Something Must Be Done.

derwiki 4y ago
The number of employees who quit the DA’s office because of Chesa was not manufactured, and is ultimately why I voted the way I did.
CryptoPunk 4y ago
ardit33 4y ago
It seems that the people of SF don't agree with you. Crime didn't fell, prosecutions did. It is like the Trumpian 'if you don't test, then covid doesn't exist'. There you go the clear graph: https://www.economist.com/united-states/2022/06/05/why-san-franciscos-clash-with-its-district-attorney-matters https://www.economist.com/united-states/2022/06/05/why-san-f...
AdrianB1 4y ago
If you don't prosecute anyone, crime stats fall. Why? Because nobody will care to report crimes knowing they will not be prosecuted.
quartesixte 4y ago
Crime stats as presented and as experienced can diverge quite heavily. I think the one thing with the data is how much crime it takes to make a neighborhood feel unsafe. And my hypothesis is that the threshold is very, very low. Like double digits low. It doesn’t take much to rattle the psyche of a community. But sure. Crime falls by 40% during a DA’s tenure (hypothetical example) so all is well right? But what is the absolute number and what does that absolute number translate to in the real world?
avalys 4y ago
Statistics are not reality. Crime stats fell because the DA was so tolerant of crime, people stopped bothering to report anything but the most serious ones.
- beebmam 4y ago
  Is there evidence for this claim?
  - upsidesinclude 4y ago
    Have you been to SF? That's your evidence
  - worker_person 4y ago
    The evidence was stolen. Person filing the complaint was mugged. Mugger was hailed as a hero.
  - vineyardmike 4y ago
    There is tons of AnecData suggesting this is true. The recalled DA himself admitted to not reporting his car breaking because he didn’t think it’d be prosecuted. I can name roughly 10 people in my life who said they didn’t bother. Another 5 who went to police only to be told by them that there was nothing that would happen and that they shouldn’t waste time on finishing the paperwork. To complete the data, I know only 1 person who fully reported a crime, and it was an extreme violent crime.
  - elefanten 4y ago
    The pervasive testimony from local law enforcement that the DA's office won't even respond about prosecuting most offenses. Not just minor offenses -- theft, burglaries, assault and at least one manslaughter/homicide case. The second hand testimony from residents and business owners saying the police are telling them not to expect them to be able to prosecute anyone. But there's also the evidence of what Boudin openly said and advocated. Sometimes the message and the stated intent are worth replacing regardless of how effective they've been at their goals.
newbie2020 4y ago
This is a great case of where statistics don’t tell the whole story. I’ve seen multiple crimes in SF that I don’t bother reporting since I know the police won’t do anything about it. So up this years’ stats by at least a few notches in the vandalism, car breakin, theft, sale of illegal goods, and bodily harm inflicted upon another categories…
dragonwriter 4y ago
> This SF district attorney recall thing is a really good example of the media's power to manufacture a story Given the degree to which opposition to Boudin comes from other progressive Democrats, including politicians, in SF, the article we are discussing about a “message” to “Democrats and the nation” is an example of that.

basisword 4y ago

I hope this is the beginning of a shift back towards the centre on both the right and the left.

ssully 4y ago
In what way does this give you hope that the right is moving more center?
- basisword 4y ago
  It gives me hope that the left is. If the left shifts more central and becomes more palatable to centre right people than the far right, then the right also needs to shift.
  - pmoriarty 4y ago
    This reminds me of a comic strip I saw during Obama's term, when he was hailed as a great compromiser. It showed Obama standing opposite a Republican, and the Republican saying: "If you take a step towards me, I'll take a step towards you." So Obama takes a step towards the Republican, who doesn't move and just says again: "If you take a step towards me, I'll take a step towards you."
    - minsc_and_boo 4y ago
      AKA shifting the Overton Window: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window
      - moistly 4y ago
        Alas, the young do not recognize how very far the window has shifted, because they weren’t around twenty, thirty, forty years ago.
  - dathinab 4y ago
    but the left didn't shift left in a relevant degree, they are more right then most center parties in the EU. Its right which shifted so far right that it might seem the left shifted away. A lot of things coming from the republican party, of bring tolerated by the republican party on recent years are uncanily similar to how Hitler proceeded before he started mass murdering (like in the rethoric of speach and willingness to commit violence etc.)

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

prettyStandard 4y ago

https://archive.ph/C8dlL https://archive.ph/C8dlL

dathinab 4y ago

war on crime causes crime, draconic penalties do not prevent or even majorly reduce crime if a there is a long list of crime causing things which are not fixed. Like in no specific order: poverty, bleak future, failed "common" education system, state supported/tolerated exploition of citizens, failing police, falling justice system (if you ask they are meant to protect citizens), systematic deep rooted discrimination, toleration of fascism

AdrianB1 4y ago
What is toleration of fascism? Most people I talked to don't even know what fascism is, but they use the term very liberally. Do you have national-socialists in California?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- dathinab 4y ago
  facism is far-right authoritarian ultra-nationalism national-socialist are one movement which is fascist, they are by far not the only one. (Nazis are fascist with socialist paint coat). The US never had (internally) a problem with nazis, I think. But it does have a problem with white supremacist. It also does have a problem with religious extremist, most times Christian based. Both of this groups have quite a bit of overlap and have often strong fascist tendencies. And sure California might be one of the US states better of. Tbh. especially with the last statement I was more thinking about some other US states.
  - swader999 4y ago
    Another aspect of the definition is the marriage of state and corporation. Seeing shades of that since Covid started.
  - engineer_22 4y ago
    -> facism is far-right authoritarian ultra-nationalism Colloquially, this is what everyone understands when using the term fascist, but it's not quite in line with the history. 'Fascism' is a pejorative dog whistle, when people hear it they think "enemy" - because in WWII the Italian and German governments were fascist. In fact, fascism, as I understand it, developed as a "third way" on the European continent. It was a rejection of capitalism as dominated by wealthy US, English interests, and of Communism. It's interesting that it developed in an area of Europe geographically juxtaposed in the middle of two powerful capitalist and communist fronts. Fascism was a reaction to domination by foreign power - so yes, naturally it's nationalistic. It also has a component of strong integration of nation and economy. The fasces is a binding together, metaphorically a combination of social, political, and economic institutions. Initially, it was an attempt to strengthen the nation, to reclaim power over the national destiny, and make good for the people of that country. Of course, in hind site, we can see that some truly awful deeds were committed by some truly awful people, and we should be vigilant to prevent that from happening again. Unfortunately, it's a hard thing to predict, and even harder to prevent. It of course becomes harder if the name of fascism is misused in partisan political contexts because the nuance and history of the term is quickly lost.

JohnClark1337 4y ago

rossdavidh 4y ago

I think Democrats at the national level underestimate how much inner-city Democratic mayors, city councils, school boards, and district attorneys determine their image as a party. If suburban swing voters, when commuting into the city center to work, shop, go to a show, etc. see homeless encampments and vacant storefronts, it's going to hit the Democrats' image as a party that can run things. Republicans in city government tend not to be in big cities, they are more often in suburbs and small towns, which don't have the same kind of homeless problem, and thus don't have the same kinds of challenges projecting an image of being a safe, lawful community. I'm sure it's a solvable problem for Democrats, but first they have to resolve to address it, rather than just wishing that voters didn't feel this way.

ModernMech 4y ago
Do Republican run jurisdictions not have a problem with homelessness, or is it just less visible? Are they shifting their homeless burden to places like cities with more programs and support for homelessness? Because I've never actually heard a Republican plan for dealing with homelessness that doesn't involve criminalizing it and sweeping it under the rug where no one can see it.
- ahoy 4y ago
  To be fair, that's largely the democratic plan too. See NYC/LA/etc. D's and R's alike hate the homeless.
- askin4it 4y ago
  If only Republicans would use their nearly infinite influence to do something we can all get behind
- caycep 4y ago
  well..rumors of 1 way bus tickets to LA... Small town police departments are notorious for running "undesirables" out of their town...redlining and zoning keeping certain people from buying real estate...things like that.
- zozbot234 4y ago

penneyd 4y ago

That's an odd headline because in California it's really Democrats sending a message on crime. Boudin in theory had some good ideas, in practice he was a joke.