10 ms·

Ask HN: Best alternative jobs for “outdated” skills with small websites/apps?

I am a software engineer who is self-taught, and after graduation I took local jobs for small web shops for dev work. Here's a brief description of my timeline from beginning to present: - 1.5 years contract-to-hire SWE (W2 never actually happened) - 3 months full-time W2 work, followed by 6 months unemployed - 10 years independent contract work (freelancing) - 2.5 years of no work, and a lot of job searching The last 5 years of independent contract work have been very sporadic. During this time I typically made under $10k every year. I don't really know how to "put myself out there" as a freelancer, and after 10 years of doing it, I just want to go back to W2 as a FT employee. My tech job skills include, PHP, MySQL, vanilla JS and jQuery. I don't know testing, cloud, or CI/CD practices. Jobs involve building small scale websites- at first only WordPress and eCommerce sites but around year 5 become more much web app SaaS-focused. I have spent a very long time without work because I don't really know how to fit myself into other places with such a skill set. I get interviews and then get rejected for not being good enough. But these are the skills I have the most experience in by far. I don't have any other job skills that come close. I don't have close friends and relatives who have a good pulse on the tech industry. I do have a Github portfolio- it's not very "hot" or "trendy" tech but just things I do them because I enjoy doing them. What other good options do I have? It doesn't have to be highly relevant to work I've done in the past. Anyone have any ideas of what I can or should do? A side note: I've been working remote since 2013 (may explain a lot about my how my career has went) and am pretty good with maintaining a schedule and discipline around WFH.

coderintherye 4y ago
In my experience, you should be applying at small to medium-sized companies that are not tech companies. There's a ton of work in these companies and hiring is more focused on solving business problems than answering brainteasers in interviews. Just go to LinkedIn and search Jobs for "PHP", here's one right off the bat that fits your skillset: https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/3094812914/ https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/3094812914/
- eatonphil 4y ago
  Yes 100%. If you, OP, are already outside of a major tech metro (so not SF, NYC, Seattle, Boston) then even better. Small companies outside of major tech metros are desperate for developers who can code because these companies cannot compete on stock or salary the same way major tech metro companies do. These small companies often even train up smart-looking people who don't know code already just to fill their needs. Judging solely from your "resume", OP, you are in a very good position. Try looking around Craigslist too for local companies hiring developers. That's how I got my start ~10 years ago making $70k or so. If you have any code you can share, try emailing the CEO/CTO directly explaining your interest and sharing your resume and code. And always ignore the exact qualifications listed and apply anyway. You don't know what the candidate pool looks like for a company and listings tend to inflate what they need or can get. Happy to chat more in email (see my HN profile) since I was in a somewhat similar place as you, OP, years ago. Anyone, not just OP welcome to message me.
  - spearingthehead 4y ago
    >Try looking around Craigslist too for local companies hiring developers. Here's the funny thing- My best career years were at jobs I found on Craigslist. They still paid pretty low next to decent traditional job sectors (banking, logistics, etc) that hire devs, but WLB was usually very good. I felt lucky to have worked at a web agency that, while not very reputable, at least didn't work their engineers to the bone at late hours. Then I tried to "level up" around 2015-16 moving to major corporate listings on LinkedIn, Indeed, and Angel.co for startups etc, and was taken aback at how the jobs market there showed no mercy to me. I was striking out every time. Falling behind in web tech most likely also had something to do with it, but in any case, it made my plans for a better future more difficult. I was on and off with attempting that side of the market, hence the sporadic nature of my freelance jobs in the late 2010's. I live in a non-tech MCOL metro area. Is CL still ripe for dev work in 2022? I stopped using it after 2014 but I have noticed back then that listings were starting to dry up. Other ideas: Would you also suggest consultancies and body shops like Accenture and Deloitte? Or would that be too out of my league? I'm just curious on the "they hire anyone with a degree" stereotype and curious to test how accurate that is. I will message you later if I have any more questions that might come up.
- spearingthehead 4y ago
  So I guess making a return to PHP web shops but just "doing your job better" and take advantage of FTE opportunities for promotions, etc. Correct? The job in that link is a junior job. I'm pretty open to reverting to a junior W2 job, with a modest (but not too low) salary, BUT it does raise the concern of presenting myself to employers. I already know that a lot of employers will see 10 years experience and applying to junior jobs as a big red flag. Do I just present myself with a shorter resume, with less experience? Navigating the jobs market when you're stagnating 10 YOE and "expert beginner" is a big headache.
  - coderintherye 4y ago
    If you do well, you'll quickly get promoted out of a Junior role so I wouldn't focus too much on the title. Focus on fit. That said you should be fine applying for normal roles just at small to medium-size non-tech companies. Do ask for your value in salary and don't take something that doesn't pay you what you are worth. Resume: Just make it tight and to the point. In interviews, press that you can solve their problems and work well with their team. Avoid companies that want live-coding whiteboard interviews and focus on ones that do take-homes or other assessments to ensure you are a good fit. Having read a few of your responses, you seem to be over-thinking it. You need to just get in a role, start performing and start working your way up. Don't be afraid to switch jobs at the 1-year mark as opportunities arise if they don't value your growth and contributions, but try to avoid leaving a job < 1 year unless it turns out to be a bad fit and/or unsupportive.
    - spearingthehead 4y ago
      This all sounds good to me. I'd prefer companies that would give me the benefit of the doubt. In addition to what you've suggested, I also want to avoid displaying all the red flags (or minimize them, at least) that user "codegeek" talked about. 2.5 years unemployed and 10 years of relatively little progress is not a good look, and this issue is probably the first objective I must overcome. With job applications, I will try out an A/B test with resumes. One of them with a lot of years pruned from my experience so that employers will have fewer negative biases about looking like a dinosaur or other related "laziness".
clorohk 4y ago
I’m kind of in a similar boat in terms of tech stack. A few things you could do: Try to get into https://www.codeable.io/ https://www.codeable.io/. Haven’t tried personally yet, but might in the future. Have a look at low-code/nocode tools and become an expert in one of them (Shopify, Wix, Webflow, Zapier, etc.) Concentrate on landing pages and reach out to marketing agencies to ask if you can contract with them. Might be the easiest way to get a fulltime job as well. Ignore the requirements and simply apply for some of the job ads. Especially for older big companies, many of them are likely to run on your stack and simply put things like cloud in because the hiring manager has heard that’s what they need to do. Just some ideas, hope this helps.
stefanos82 4y ago
Every day that passes by I read stories that are so much alike to each other...it's so scary, because this is what I am going through for years now, with my ups and my downs. If you would like to chat tomorrow, feel free to join https://larachat.slack.com/ https://larachat.slack.com/ so we can talk. I'm using the same nickname. Have no worries; we will make it.
tengbretson 4y ago
Are you asking specifically about applying your experience in older tech because you have already ruled-out learning new skills? If so, why? And if not, I'd suggest getting in touch with a local boot camp or technical college.
- eatonphil 4y ago
  > And if not, I'd suggest getting in touch with a local boot camp or technical college. I would not encourage anyone who's cash strapped to do either of these. It's easy to learn new tech online if you're motivated. Although I don't know what to say as much if you're not motivated.
  - spearingthehead 4y ago
    Yeah, I'm rather cash strapped at the moment and up-front payments would my main barrier to bootcamp or online tech college. If they offered better financing plans or some "pay back after employment" arrangement, I might consider.
    - adamredwoods 4y ago
      My personal story is I was in a similar situation, I used to do "Flash" development, which died out a long time ago. After some sporadic work and rough times, I did a developer bootcamp (General Assembly) and took out a large loan. I had my older brother co-sign and help pay. I worked REALLY hard, 10-12 hour days of coding for 3-4 months. I landed a contract coding job after several interviews, and usually one job is all you need to get the wheel rolling. The loan is paid off, no regrets. Getting any job is an effort. I suggest people get better practice interviewing and presenting themselves. Finding a career coach or mentor is incredibly helpful. And finally, getting instructor-led education is potentially the best strategy. Even taking one introductory class can be invigorating to see a clearer path forward.
    - ratww 4y ago
      You probably don't need a bootcamp. You're experienced enough to get good by doing courses online. Just get over the fear of picking technology that will be outdated and do a course right now. Vuejs or React for the frontend and Laravel for the backend. If both backend and frontend end up being too much, maybe focus on the one you like better. Learn to deploy to AWS. Learn how to make a CI/CD in Github Actions to deploy for free. Boom, you've done a bootcamp (or a bunch of them actually). Now all you need is 10 year experience to get hired by companies... oh wait you already have it ;)
rawfan 4y ago
- Go to Laracasts.com. Get up to speed with "The PHP Practitioner", "Object Oriented Bootcamp" and the "Laravel from Scratch" Series. - Look for PHP/Laravel Jobs in your area I love the so called TALL stack (Tailwind, AlpineJS, Laravel, Livewire) which is extremely easy to use and allows you to build modern reactive apps. So if you want to work fullstack but don't want to learn a Javascript framework like React or VueJS, maybe check out Livewire, too. Tailwind is IMO the defacto way of writing CSS these days. There's tons of material on that out there, too.
- spearingthehead 4y ago
  Haven't worked much with Laravel, but I know it's been around for many years now. I have MVC experience so it should not be so hard to get the basics. Laravel was something I had a very small brush with in a 2018 job. Was really burned by the client so it ended quickly. Also, please excuse me from going on a tangent here. I have some kind of paranoia about picking a library or framework for a job, only for it to fall in demand soon after. Like how can I tell if some framework like Laravel is in the twilight years or not? My MVC of choice in 2012 was CodeIgniter. Nobody really uses that anymore. Not a good thing for my career. I just have an irrational fear of just picking the "late" thing again. Like the same fear some people get that every stock they buy in the stock market causes the price to go down. On the JS side of things, I picked up VueJS and React for some side projects. I'm probably more up to date on VueJS though. (another dev informed me that my React project's code is 6 years out of date and nobody really codes React like that anymore)
  - melony 4y ago
    You are a software engineer. Learning and picking up new things should be your bread and butter. No major tech company test for "framework" knowledge over fundamentals. If you know how http and network requests work, how state and architecture are handled on server and client side, then all frameworks are the same. Frameworks are just abstractions on top of the basics.
    - hamburglar 4y ago
fredgrott 4y ago
Another way to look at it, my bias I know their story but have never met them or emailed them... Creative Tim which now is at $1.7 million got it's start by I think 3 self taught front end coders as they wanted a killer resume to go after smaller clients. So they started building UI kits some free ones that point to paid ones business model. Not saying that you would get to $1.7 million. However, given you already have half the work done in that you already know jquery and JS. Why not build two smallish UI kits to teach yourself design and put both the free kit and the paid kit out there. Yes, it is more work than probably what others are suggesting. But, quite frankly if you can empathy for other humans; YOU can IN FACT DESIGN awesome websites. You just have never push towards as of yet. Times are a changing, it's no longer enough to code as one has to do the human other side of the equation.
philip1209 4y ago
Have you considered becoming a Webflow developer? I work as a PM at Webflow with many freelancers who say “First I made websites. Then, I made apps. Now, I’m back to making websites. And, it’s great.” Developers often overlook low-code. But, their experience lets them dissect the tools super quickly and become incredibly productive. Feel free to reach out to me - philip.thomas at webflow.com
icameron 4y ago
You will need to get you foot in the door somewhere by applying at the entry level, then build your reputation by making an impact. Take on projects without being asked. Seek forgiveness not permission. Even if your role is not tech focused or IT related you can make an impression. You clearly have some knowledge and experience, you're on HN, that alone shows that you've got the aptitude. Non-tech companies still need tech people, they just don't know how to hire them most of the time. Since you have been freelancing it for 13 years there isn't much you can say about the past that will impress a tech manager, but you should find some entry level positions that pay much more than you've been averaging. I work at a firm that isn't tech focused, and there are so many opportunities for anyone to engrain themselves into the business by creating a technical role for themselves. Spinning up web-apps, automation, even spreadsheet programming can make an impact and turn an internship or helpdesk position into full time employment.
- KennyBlanken 4y ago
  I'm going to take a wild guess that you're a boomer? The whole "start entry level, work your way up by impressing" thing doesn't work anymore. These days many companies for most of their entry level workforce just chew people up and spit them out, while fighting for top-skill young talent or older experts.
  - yibg 4y ago
    This is an unnecessarily pessimistic take on jobs. Of course showing value still works. People advance and move up the ladder still. Besides, what do you suggest? Just give up?
    - KennyBlanken 4y ago
      > This is an unnecessarily pessimistic take on jobs. Welcome to the reality a whole lot of people 40-and-under are facing: https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/public-and-social-sector/our-insights/for-many-americans-economic-opportunity-seems-increasingly-out-of-reach https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/public-and-social-sector... Half of unemployed Americans are pessimistic about their outlook: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/02/10/unemployed-americans-are-feeling-the-emotional-strain-of-job-loss-most-have-considered-changing-occupations/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/02/10/unemployed-... Class mobility is falling, and has been for over a decade: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2018/06/05/seven-reasons-to-worry-about-the-american-middle-class/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2018/06... https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/09/social-mobility-upwards-decline-usa-us-america-economics/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/09/social-mobility-upwar... https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-t... https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/07/social-mobility-america/491240/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/07/social-... The US has some of the highest economic inequality in the world, and it's growing, with the top 10% of the population holding 70% of the wealth. The bottom 50% of the country hold less than 2.5% of the country's wealth: https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/us-inequality-debate https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/us-inequality-debate https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/wealth-inequality-and-the-racial-wealth-gap-20211022.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/weal... > Of course showing value still works. People advance and move up the ladder still. Look around you; when is the last time any of your coworkers rose up through the ranks recently? Every time I hear someone talk about starting out in an entry-level position and working their way up through the ranks, it's someone substantially older than me, who "worked their way up" a decade or two ago. I've seen multiple discussions here and on reddit talking about how in the 90's and 2000's you could talk your way into a job (that day is long since gone), work your ass off, and get rewarded for it. Those days are long gone for all but top talent. For a lot of jobs, there is no ladder. And if there is a ladder, it's probably a short one, and one that only goes a specific route. Showing value to rise through the ranks only matters when someone is looking to promote within. Apple, Google, Facebook, etc all segregate their workers into castes, and you cannot cross caste lines. Even within the lowest caste, there's still rarely opportunity for advancement. Amazon for example loves to sell a lie that the offer education benefits (after a long period of employment) and opportunities for advancement to their warehouse workers...but the reality is that they rarely to never advance people, and internal documents show they plan on if not outright encourage people to burn out and leave after a year or so. This was in fact exactly why Amazon ended up with a union in its Staten Island warehouse. One of the guys who started the union did so because he was promised opportunity, worked his ass off, and saw supervisor positions get handed to fresh hires, and when he tried to apply to them, was told to buzz off. Companies churn their low-value employees on purpose. They even outsource the employment to an employment contractor so that someone else has to deal with all the paperwork and training. > Besides, what do you suggest? Just give up? I wasn't aware I had to come up with a solution in order to point out the problem?
ilaksh 4y ago
Take a look at the Algorand ecosystem. Maybe build a tool or something. Try working for yourself with some kind of service or product. There is nothing wrong with Vanilla JS and the rest of those skills.
- quickthrower2 4y ago
  > Algorand ecosystem. Pretty specific advice! Blockchain does seem to have a lot of remote-first jobs, so it is good for that. But there is quite a learning curve from basic web development, so it will take some investment in time and courses.
codegeek 4y ago
I will be brutally honest and hoping to help you with some advice. You have a few red flags that may give a pause to prospective employers and it has nothing to do with your doing boring PHP etc. - You have not worked for 2.5 years. That is a big gap and you need to be explain it well. Unfortunately there is lot of competition these days and anyone with that large of a gap without a good and reasonable explanation will find it difficult. - You have never seemed to hold a proper W2 job and if you now are looking for one, you have to make that case which is not easy. For example, what happened with that 3 months full time W2 and then unemployed ? Did you quit yourself ? Were you let go/laid off/fired ? I think your biggest challenge is that you have technically "worked" for over a decade but seems like you don't have much to show for it unfortunately. This is where most employers may get a pause. Good news it that PHP, vanilla JS/jQuery etc are very much in demand. You need to be more focussed in your approach and fix the negatives. Perhaps go back to one of our freelance clients and ask for a job if they are hiring ? You need to have someone vouch for you since you have been out there for a long time. Then go from there. I hope this was helpful and not overly critical. Just trying to give it to you straight.
- cutler 4y ago
  jQuery in demand? Since when outside legacy work?
  - rlayton2 4y ago
    Legacy work includes websites that were written a few years ago, but still work and don't need to be completely redone. Add some features, but a rebuild is unnecessary.
  - snowwrestler 4y ago
    The point is, there is a ton of legacy work out there.
- KennyBlanken 4y ago
  > You have not worked for 2.5 years. That is a big gap and you need to be explain it well. God forbid people save up a bunch of money and decide to not work for a year or two. God forbid people have health issues that keep them from working. God forbid people lose their job, struggle at finding a new one - not because they're incompetent but because they're terrible at job hunting. Or because the job loss triggers mental health issues (which you can't get addressed because you don't have a job and lots of mental health professionals either don't touch anyone on insurance period, or they don't touch people on the subsidized healthcare plans.) Employers: "WE CAN'T FIND ANYONE TO WORK FOR US!" Employee with a 2.5 year gap: "Uh, hi?" Employers: "Not you."
sbmthakur 4y ago
What is W2 work?
- tartoran 4y ago
  https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw2.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw2.pdf
- spiffytech 4y ago
  American shorthand for a permanent-position full-time employee (usually with benefits), as opposed to a contractor / freelancer. Named for the year-end tax document full-time employees receive.
notjustanymike 4y ago
Sign up for Frontend Masters, take the courses on React, Vue, Angular, Typescript, and CSS. See what other courses spike your interest. At the same time start participating in weekly coding challenges, as most of these are what show up in tech interviews. Build a project using a good API; I hear Spotify is a solid choice. You're still ahead of most graduates because your resume has experience. You just need to commit a solid month of learning to bring it up to date.
- steve_adams_86 4y ago
  There is a little exercise I was asked to do recently as part of a skills assessment, and it used the Spotify API. It’s not a bad way to practice: https://github.com/alexgurr/react-coding-challenges/tree/master/spootify https://github.com/alexgurr/react-coding-challenges/tree/mas...
quadcore 4y ago
Plenty of good advices out there. Remember that momentum is key. Someone once said to me, "its easier to get a girlfriend, a job, whatever, when you have one already". So get a job. A whichever job. For momentum sake.
- adamredwoods 4y ago
  I have had people tell me this when I was struggling, but I didn't go get a job "flipping burgers" or stocking shelves. It's demoralizing. I held out for better jobs and in the end, waiting and getting paid more was worth 3x more than working an entry-tier job. IMO, I suggest not getting "any" job, but attempt to get a related (I call it lateral shift) job.
  - Mezzie 4y ago
    Also, there's an opportunity cost to taking any job. If that job exhausts you (either physically or mentally), then you're not going to be able to put your best foot forward in the application process, which can be killer if you're an unconventional applicant.
teledyn 4y ago
As one in the same boat and tired of LinkedIn sending false positives and cold calls from 'recruiters', and Google searches returning the same five filled jobs over and over under different job site guises, and /then/ reading about recruiting scams, I decided to take Sun RA's advice and get off that planet. Remember how fun this job used to be? Design meetings in pubs that included a go at Space Invaders, enabling all sorts of solutions that brought smiles instead of KPI's. A lot of it was because we were in the Frontier, things built from chicken-wire and duct tape, we had the who, thanks to Usenet and Fidonet, who gave us the where, and we had that common why of being evangelists of a new era. There was no money but that was because there were no VCs, we were free, in the GNU sense That today pretty much describes the Fediverse and ActivityPub, and the dawning need by non-technical folk that thinking small and 'local' is smarter than surveillance capitalism running recommendation algorithms only machines understand. So it's just like the world we know, only it includes golang Not that I've found any work there yet. It just feels way better than tunneling through superlatives on LinkedIn.
chiefalchemist 4y ago
Lots of good technical advice. And it sounds like you're getting at least some interviews so I'd like to suggest: - Have a professional review your CV / resume. It's a numbers game. You need more interviews, or perhaps more appropriate ones. A goid resume / CV won't get you hired. It just needs to get you an interview. - Work on your interview skills. If you're getting interviews then at least some believe you're qualified. The disconnect seems to be at the fit / culture level. When possible, record your interviews and then go back and listen to see where you can improve. - Looking into volunteering to do WordPress for a non-profit or two. That's worth listing on your resume. Perhaps revist your GH repos, make sure they reflect you and your coding skills.
novateg 4y ago
Nobody is talking about starting your own business, if you already know how to build websites and web apps try looking for a small businesses that need your services. Learn more about internet marketing services, SEO optimization etc. learn sales 101. I believe you will get tons of work.
- rlayton2 4y ago
  Yes! Just don't cold-email businesses with your offerings - lots and lots of low value options do! Instead, find local meetup groups of businesses and start making connections. Be the local business doing this.
- BadCookie 4y ago
  Is this still true with services like Squarespace and Shopify around? There are also many startups with millions in funding building sites for industry niches (e.g., Luxury Presence for high-end real estate). And many small businesses seem totally content with just their Facebook page. This feels like a tough area to compete in to me.
  - rlayton2 4y ago
    Yes, but many non-technical business owners want to focus on other aspects of their company and just get someone to do that work.
  - novateg 4y ago
    Business owners can’t always do everything. There are some aspects of the marketing, that requires some knowledge in the field
lubujackson 4y ago
I was in a similar position to you about a year ago, some old PHP skills and a long break from work. The biggest challenge at this stage is getting out of your own way and selling your strengths. I assure you, there are lots of companies right now with a roster of junior developers who are looking for a sage graybeard (if you are nearing 30 that is close enough) on the cheap, so embrace that role and angle yourself for it. Focus on your product and customer expertise and not the tech stack. Find the unsexy companies, plenty still operate remotely. For me, I got a job at an old PHP shop and after 8 mo. upgraded with a big salary boost to a React/Python role, both languages I picked up while job hunting. The biggest challenge for me? Getting comfortable with the GitHub workflow and working on a bigger team was a bigger shift than learning a language, so I would recommend sticking with PHP for now and find a job where you can get comfortable with that side of things first. The monthly HN job thread is a pretty good mix of companies so give that a shot.
trestletech 4y ago
In addition to the other suggestions here, Academia could be another interesting route. Look at the job boards for local colleges/universities/research centers in your area. They're typically struggling to find technical people to either: 1. maintain and update the main websites 2. administer other IT-related systems on-campus (may require brushing up on some Linux or Windows Server skills) 3. help with the coding side of their research There's a lot of low-hanging fruit available when it comes to coding needed for a research grant. Sometimes it's just standing up a basic website for a lab, but you'd be invaluable if you were able to help someone scrape together their pile of perl/R/python scripts into something that can be be hosted on a website. And IMHO the bar for quality is usually quite low -- many labs just want to have enough to earn/fulfill a grant and then move you on to the next project. I'll warn you that there's not a strong career path available for software developers in Academia at the moment. So you may eventually need to break out. But it strikes me as a viable way to get a few years of real software dev experience working on interesting projects which would definitely put you in a better spot to branch out elsewhere.
brundolf 4y ago
You talk about yourself like there's this hard barrier, like you've been barred from the "modern" web industry. But I'm going to guess you have a ton of experience with the web platform, and that's still relevant. If a new-grad can get up to speed on the currently-popular languages and frameworks, you should have no trouble doing so with all your added context. If it's a matter of not knowing where to start, I'd say start by looking at what the job listings are asking for. And then beyond that, HN is a good source for keeping a general "pulse" on the industry; that's the main reason I'm on here. Nothing's standing in your way, you just need to seek out and learn about the current landscape. You're in a perfectly fine position to do so.
yibg 4y ago
If you know you have skills gaps why haven’t you tried to fill them in the 2.5 years you’ve been unemployed? If you tried to build a SaaS business in that time, even with 0 revenue you’d have both some new experience as well as something you can put in front of employers when you do interviews. Can’t change the past of course but seems like you should take this time to also build something and learn in addition to job searching.
ramphastidae 4y ago
Make sure you have a clear story for why you haven’t worked in 2.5 years. It can be a complete lie. Don’t worry about that - it’s really none of their business, but you need to tell them what they want to hear to move forward. For example: - You were taking care of a sick family member - You became a stay-at-home parent to support your spouse - You were full-time contracting Keep it simple. 99% of the time it’s not an issue if the excuse is reasonable and your delivery is confident. The more personal the issue, the less likely they will probe.
iqkznnft 4y ago
You say that you're not good. Why aren't you good? Separate question, have you tried making an effort to improve?
mmmpop 4y ago
> software engineer who is self-taught > I don't know testing, cloud, or CI/CD practices "I'm a master craftsman but I don't know how to use a jigsaw, plane a table top, and also I'm missing my dominant hand." First, be honest with yourself and your skills, then re-craft your résumé. Honest to god though? Build a fake e-commerce store in Gatsby that isn't shitty, then get back to interviews. But this time you're "web developer".
- racl101 4y ago
  Heck, I know testing, cloud, CI/CD, devops, etc. and have been doing it for 9 years. And I still don't feel I can adequately call my self an engineer. I feel like I can't call myself an engineer cause while I'm a decent doer who executes well, I am not the one coming up with high level plans of architecture. I've never been put on the spot.
  - mmmpop 4y ago
    Same, but for 12 years and I agree, even though I've done a lot of high-level architecture in the past few years. Some of my job consists of engineering no-doubt, but until I've graduated with my engineering BS, I'm just "developer" unless someone gives me a title that says otherwise.
    - mmmpop 4y ago
    - spearingthehead 4y ago
      Just been given the software engineer title at a few jobs, which I know is just a job title at this point.
harrisonjackson 4y ago
I'd probably start by asking myself, what type of company do I want to work for? And what type of job do I want? Scroll job boards and see what is out there and what appeals. Then go buff up any skills you need to get a job at those companies. A great way to do that is build a clone of some aspect of their product or business. This will prepare you for the interview and job like an insider. You'll be able to talk about the parts of the product that were hard and why. Then all of a sudden your interview is just a good conversation. Force yourself to do it the way an actual engineering organization does it, too. If you aren't sure _how_ engineering teams organize projects, deployments, testing, etc then do a lot of googling and even reach out directly to CTOs, PMs, Senior devs, etc at different companies and just explain your exact situation - even link to this thread. Lots of people are willing to take the time to help especially if it is as simple as saying... "At company X we do Y and Z" and then that gives you another thing to dig into. And you've potentially made a helpful contact/mentor. It sounds like you don't have a lot of extra time to develop yourself into the perfect candidate for your maybe dream job, so for now you could probably pay the bills using freelancing job sites and offering IT/web dev help to local small businesses.
rkalla 4y ago
I would look at sys admin type jobs at law firms, small medical practices and other places that need a “tech guy” but don’t need to hire a full time developer.
fxtentacle 4y ago
You should research how to describe what you did to make it more attractive. Apparently, you took a "sabbatical" to find your true purpose in life or whatever, so you took a long break from working. But you have experience with PHP and jquery, the foundations of WordPress, which is hosting a large part of all enterprise homepages and newspaper websites. I'd say do a few freelance homepage projects for small companies to show off that you still have all necessary skills and then you can approach a potential employer to level up to larger and more difficult projects. If you phrase it correctly, seeking a challenge will make you look motivated and energetic, i.e. like a great employee.
yobbo 4y ago
> I don't know testing, cloud, or CI/CD practices Like has been pointed out elsewhere; if this was carpentry, these would be new words to make "cutting, masking, and gluing" sound modern. For web frontends, everyone is self-taught, just like all carpenters are self-taught on the job (or as apprentices). Degrees are used as filters and for gatekeeping.
snowwrestler 4y ago
Web agencies would be a great place to look for work with that skill set. A quick way to find them is to look in the partner directories of Wordpress and Drupal hosting companies: https://wpengine.com/partners/agencies/ https://wpengine.com/partners/agencies/ https://directory.pantheon.io/agencies https://directory.pantheon.io/agencies https://www.acquia.com/partners/finder https://www.acquia.com/partners/finder
sydbarrett74 4y ago
deeplurker571 4y ago
Hey, I know you aren't asking for a job, but you should put some contact info in your profile. I might actually be able to use/help you in my small company/ dev shop. We do some basic dev, had issues with WordPress and focus on Vue projects. Sure I could probably hire some outsourced worker cheaper, but maybe we could be a fit. Maybe not, talk is cheap and I'd love to chat. In the very least some free mentors ng would be fun. My anon profile email should go through. Hope to chat!
rrmdp 4y ago
This 3 steps are key: 1) Make a good resume. 2) Work on GitHub portfolio, they need to know what you are capable to do (this is really important) 3) Don't be afraid to apply as much as you can! If you don't know where to apply, well there are tons of job boards nowadays, check out this great resource, a curated list of the best job boards out there that I am building: https://jobboardsearch.com https://jobboardsearch.com Good luck :)
nickd2001 4y ago
As a non-American who worked in USA for a while, I noticed, because its easy to fire people in USA, employers will take risks like hire someone with 100% liberal arts background for highly tech job. If it doesn't work out they can fire them. It seems to me, because of this, Americans have a lot more 2cnd chances than Europeans. Seems weird you're meeting such risk aversion in such a hot job market, with the skills you've got, which sound in demand. If people are having a weird reaction maybe its best to be 100% honest with them and say, due to various factors such as looking after your mother etc, your career has never quite got off the ground, but you're motivated and hard-working, and ask them to try you out. Tell 'em "give me a coupe months you'll see results, fire me if you don't". I'd think someone will bite, for that.... You just need 1 job where you achieve lift-off, and the future is golden. (This comment assumes you're actually in USA not a risk-averse country, but even then... persuade someone to try you on temporary basis first, probation period etc, and try to be a rock star quickly...)

coderintherye 4y ago

In my experience, you should be applying at small to medium-sized companies that are not tech companies. There's a ton of work in these companies and hiring is more focused on solving business problems than answering brainteasers in interviews. Just go to LinkedIn and search Jobs for "PHP", here's one right off the bat that fits your skillset: https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/3094812914/ https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/3094812914/

eatonphil 4y ago
Yes 100%. If you, OP, are already outside of a major tech metro (so not SF, NYC, Seattle, Boston) then even better. Small companies outside of major tech metros are desperate for developers who can code because these companies cannot compete on stock or salary the same way major tech metro companies do. These small companies often even train up smart-looking people who don't know code already just to fill their needs. Judging solely from your "resume", OP, you are in a very good position. Try looking around Craigslist too for local companies hiring developers. That's how I got my start ~10 years ago making $70k or so. If you have any code you can share, try emailing the CEO/CTO directly explaining your interest and sharing your resume and code. And always ignore the exact qualifications listed and apply anyway. You don't know what the candidate pool looks like for a company and listings tend to inflate what they need or can get. Happy to chat more in email (see my HN profile) since I was in a somewhat similar place as you, OP, years ago. Anyone, not just OP welcome to message me.
- spearingthehead 4y ago
  >Try looking around Craigslist too for local companies hiring developers. Here's the funny thing- My best career years were at jobs I found on Craigslist. They still paid pretty low next to decent traditional job sectors (banking, logistics, etc) that hire devs, but WLB was usually very good. I felt lucky to have worked at a web agency that, while not very reputable, at least didn't work their engineers to the bone at late hours. Then I tried to "level up" around 2015-16 moving to major corporate listings on LinkedIn, Indeed, and Angel.co for startups etc, and was taken aback at how the jobs market there showed no mercy to me. I was striking out every time. Falling behind in web tech most likely also had something to do with it, but in any case, it made my plans for a better future more difficult. I was on and off with attempting that side of the market, hence the sporadic nature of my freelance jobs in the late 2010's. I live in a non-tech MCOL metro area. Is CL still ripe for dev work in 2022? I stopped using it after 2014 but I have noticed back then that listings were starting to dry up. Other ideas: Would you also suggest consultancies and body shops like Accenture and Deloitte? Or would that be too out of my league? I'm just curious on the "they hire anyone with a degree" stereotype and curious to test how accurate that is. I will message you later if I have any more questions that might come up.
spearingthehead 4y ago
So I guess making a return to PHP web shops but just "doing your job better" and take advantage of FTE opportunities for promotions, etc. Correct? The job in that link is a junior job. I'm pretty open to reverting to a junior W2 job, with a modest (but not too low) salary, BUT it does raise the concern of presenting myself to employers. I already know that a lot of employers will see 10 years experience and applying to junior jobs as a big red flag. Do I just present myself with a shorter resume, with less experience? Navigating the jobs market when you're stagnating 10 YOE and "expert beginner" is a big headache.
- coderintherye 4y ago
  If you do well, you'll quickly get promoted out of a Junior role so I wouldn't focus too much on the title. Focus on fit. That said you should be fine applying for normal roles just at small to medium-size non-tech companies. Do ask for your value in salary and don't take something that doesn't pay you what you are worth. Resume: Just make it tight and to the point. In interviews, press that you can solve their problems and work well with their team. Avoid companies that want live-coding whiteboard interviews and focus on ones that do take-homes or other assessments to ensure you are a good fit. Having read a few of your responses, you seem to be over-thinking it. You need to just get in a role, start performing and start working your way up. Don't be afraid to switch jobs at the 1-year mark as opportunities arise if they don't value your growth and contributions, but try to avoid leaving a job < 1 year unless it turns out to be a bad fit and/or unsupportive.
  - spearingthehead 4y ago
    This all sounds good to me. I'd prefer companies that would give me the benefit of the doubt. In addition to what you've suggested, I also want to avoid displaying all the red flags (or minimize them, at least) that user "codegeek" talked about. 2.5 years unemployed and 10 years of relatively little progress is not a good look, and this issue is probably the first objective I must overcome. With job applications, I will try out an A/B test with resumes. One of them with a lot of years pruned from my experience so that employers will have fewer negative biases about looking like a dinosaur or other related "laziness".

clorohk 4y ago

I’m kind of in a similar boat in terms of tech stack. A few things you could do: Try to get into https://www.codeable.io/ https://www.codeable.io/. Haven’t tried personally yet, but might in the future. Have a look at low-code/nocode tools and become an expert in one of them (Shopify, Wix, Webflow, Zapier, etc.) Concentrate on landing pages and reach out to marketing agencies to ask if you can contract with them. Might be the easiest way to get a fulltime job as well. Ignore the requirements and simply apply for some of the job ads. Especially for older big companies, many of them are likely to run on your stack and simply put things like cloud in because the hiring manager has heard that’s what they need to do. Just some ideas, hope this helps.

stefanos82 4y ago

Every day that passes by I read stories that are so much alike to each other...it's so scary, because this is what I am going through for years now, with my ups and my downs. If you would like to chat tomorrow, feel free to join https://larachat.slack.com/ https://larachat.slack.com/ so we can talk. I'm using the same nickname. Have no worries; we will make it.

tengbretson 4y ago

Are you asking specifically about applying your experience in older tech because you have already ruled-out learning new skills? If so, why? And if not, I'd suggest getting in touch with a local boot camp or technical college.

eatonphil 4y ago
> And if not, I'd suggest getting in touch with a local boot camp or technical college. I would not encourage anyone who's cash strapped to do either of these. It's easy to learn new tech online if you're motivated. Although I don't know what to say as much if you're not motivated.
- spearingthehead 4y ago
  Yeah, I'm rather cash strapped at the moment and up-front payments would my main barrier to bootcamp or online tech college. If they offered better financing plans or some "pay back after employment" arrangement, I might consider.
  - adamredwoods 4y ago
    My personal story is I was in a similar situation, I used to do "Flash" development, which died out a long time ago. After some sporadic work and rough times, I did a developer bootcamp (General Assembly) and took out a large loan. I had my older brother co-sign and help pay. I worked REALLY hard, 10-12 hour days of coding for 3-4 months. I landed a contract coding job after several interviews, and usually one job is all you need to get the wheel rolling. The loan is paid off, no regrets. Getting any job is an effort. I suggest people get better practice interviewing and presenting themselves. Finding a career coach or mentor is incredibly helpful. And finally, getting instructor-led education is potentially the best strategy. Even taking one introductory class can be invigorating to see a clearer path forward.
  - ratww 4y ago
    You probably don't need a bootcamp. You're experienced enough to get good by doing courses online. Just get over the fear of picking technology that will be outdated and do a course right now. Vuejs or React for the frontend and Laravel for the backend. If both backend and frontend end up being too much, maybe focus on the one you like better. Learn to deploy to AWS. Learn how to make a CI/CD in Github Actions to deploy for free. Boom, you've done a bootcamp (or a bunch of them actually). Now all you need is 10 year experience to get hired by companies... oh wait you already have it ;)

rawfan 4y ago

- Go to Laracasts.com. Get up to speed with "The PHP Practitioner", "Object Oriented Bootcamp" and the "Laravel from Scratch" Series. - Look for PHP/Laravel Jobs in your area I love the so called TALL stack (Tailwind, AlpineJS, Laravel, Livewire) which is extremely easy to use and allows you to build modern reactive apps. So if you want to work fullstack but don't want to learn a Javascript framework like React or VueJS, maybe check out Livewire, too. Tailwind is IMO the defacto way of writing CSS these days. There's tons of material on that out there, too.

spearingthehead 4y ago
Haven't worked much with Laravel, but I know it's been around for many years now. I have MVC experience so it should not be so hard to get the basics. Laravel was something I had a very small brush with in a 2018 job. Was really burned by the client so it ended quickly. Also, please excuse me from going on a tangent here. I have some kind of paranoia about picking a library or framework for a job, only for it to fall in demand soon after. Like how can I tell if some framework like Laravel is in the twilight years or not? My MVC of choice in 2012 was CodeIgniter. Nobody really uses that anymore. Not a good thing for my career. I just have an irrational fear of just picking the "late" thing again. Like the same fear some people get that every stock they buy in the stock market causes the price to go down. On the JS side of things, I picked up VueJS and React for some side projects. I'm probably more up to date on VueJS though. (another dev informed me that my React project's code is 6 years out of date and nobody really codes React like that anymore)
- melony 4y ago
  You are a software engineer. Learning and picking up new things should be your bread and butter. No major tech company test for "framework" knowledge over fundamentals. If you know how http and network requests work, how state and architecture are handled on server and client side, then all frameworks are the same. Frameworks are just abstractions on top of the basics.
  - hamburglar 4y ago

fredgrott 4y ago

Another way to look at it, my bias I know their story but have never met them or emailed them... Creative Tim which now is at $1.7 million got it's start by I think 3 self taught front end coders as they wanted a killer resume to go after smaller clients. So they started building UI kits some free ones that point to paid ones business model. Not saying that you would get to $1.7 million. However, given you already have half the work done in that you already know jquery and JS. Why not build two smallish UI kits to teach yourself design and put both the free kit and the paid kit out there. Yes, it is more work than probably what others are suggesting. But, quite frankly if you can empathy for other humans; YOU can IN FACT DESIGN awesome websites. You just have never push towards as of yet. Times are a changing, it's no longer enough to code as one has to do the human other side of the equation.

philip1209 4y ago

Have you considered becoming a Webflow developer? I work as a PM at Webflow with many freelancers who say “First I made websites. Then, I made apps. Now, I’m back to making websites. And, it’s great.” Developers often overlook low-code. But, their experience lets them dissect the tools super quickly and become incredibly productive. Feel free to reach out to me - philip.thomas at webflow.com

icameron 4y ago

You will need to get you foot in the door somewhere by applying at the entry level, then build your reputation by making an impact. Take on projects without being asked. Seek forgiveness not permission. Even if your role is not tech focused or IT related you can make an impression. You clearly have some knowledge and experience, you're on HN, that alone shows that you've got the aptitude. Non-tech companies still need tech people, they just don't know how to hire them most of the time. Since you have been freelancing it for 13 years there isn't much you can say about the past that will impress a tech manager, but you should find some entry level positions that pay much more than you've been averaging. I work at a firm that isn't tech focused, and there are so many opportunities for anyone to engrain themselves into the business by creating a technical role for themselves. Spinning up web-apps, automation, even spreadsheet programming can make an impact and turn an internship or helpdesk position into full time employment.

KennyBlanken 4y ago
I'm going to take a wild guess that you're a boomer? The whole "start entry level, work your way up by impressing" thing doesn't work anymore. These days many companies for most of their entry level workforce just chew people up and spit them out, while fighting for top-skill young talent or older experts.
- yibg 4y ago
  This is an unnecessarily pessimistic take on jobs. Of course showing value still works. People advance and move up the ladder still. Besides, what do you suggest? Just give up?
  - KennyBlanken 4y ago
    > This is an unnecessarily pessimistic take on jobs. Welcome to the reality a whole lot of people 40-and-under are facing: https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/public-and-social-sector/our-insights/for-many-americans-economic-opportunity-seems-increasingly-out-of-reach https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/public-and-social-sector... Half of unemployed Americans are pessimistic about their outlook: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/02/10/unemployed-americans-are-feeling-the-emotional-strain-of-job-loss-most-have-considered-changing-occupations/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/02/10/unemployed-... Class mobility is falling, and has been for over a decade: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2018/06/05/seven-reasons-to-worry-about-the-american-middle-class/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2018/06... https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/09/social-mobility-upwards-decline-usa-us-america-economics/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/09/social-mobility-upwar... https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-t... https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/07/social-mobility-america/491240/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/07/social-... The US has some of the highest economic inequality in the world, and it's growing, with the top 10% of the population holding 70% of the wealth. The bottom 50% of the country hold less than 2.5% of the country's wealth: https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/us-inequality-debate https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/us-inequality-debate https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/wealth-inequality-and-the-racial-wealth-gap-20211022.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/weal... > Of course showing value still works. People advance and move up the ladder still. Look around you; when is the last time any of your coworkers rose up through the ranks recently? Every time I hear someone talk about starting out in an entry-level position and working their way up through the ranks, it's someone substantially older than me, who "worked their way up" a decade or two ago. I've seen multiple discussions here and on reddit talking about how in the 90's and 2000's you could talk your way into a job (that day is long since gone), work your ass off, and get rewarded for it. Those days are long gone for all but top talent. For a lot of jobs, there is no ladder. And if there is a ladder, it's probably a short one, and one that only goes a specific route. Showing value to rise through the ranks only matters when someone is looking to promote within. Apple, Google, Facebook, etc all segregate their workers into castes, and you cannot cross caste lines. Even within the lowest caste, there's still rarely opportunity for advancement. Amazon for example loves to sell a lie that the offer education benefits (after a long period of employment) and opportunities for advancement to their warehouse workers...but the reality is that they rarely to never advance people, and internal documents show they plan on if not outright encourage people to burn out and leave after a year or so. This was in fact exactly why Amazon ended up with a union in its Staten Island warehouse. One of the guys who started the union did so because he was promised opportunity, worked his ass off, and saw supervisor positions get handed to fresh hires, and when he tried to apply to them, was told to buzz off. Companies churn their low-value employees on purpose. They even outsource the employment to an employment contractor so that someone else has to deal with all the paperwork and training. > Besides, what do you suggest? Just give up? I wasn't aware I had to come up with a solution in order to point out the problem?

ilaksh 4y ago

Take a look at the Algorand ecosystem. Maybe build a tool or something. Try working for yourself with some kind of service or product. There is nothing wrong with Vanilla JS and the rest of those skills.

quickthrower2 4y ago
> Algorand ecosystem. Pretty specific advice! Blockchain does seem to have a lot of remote-first jobs, so it is good for that. But there is quite a learning curve from basic web development, so it will take some investment in time and courses.

codegeek 4y ago

I will be brutally honest and hoping to help you with some advice. You have a few red flags that may give a pause to prospective employers and it has nothing to do with your doing boring PHP etc. - You have not worked for 2.5 years. That is a big gap and you need to be explain it well. Unfortunately there is lot of competition these days and anyone with that large of a gap without a good and reasonable explanation will find it difficult. - You have never seemed to hold a proper W2 job and if you now are looking for one, you have to make that case which is not easy. For example, what happened with that 3 months full time W2 and then unemployed ? Did you quit yourself ? Were you let go/laid off/fired ? I think your biggest challenge is that you have technically "worked" for over a decade but seems like you don't have much to show for it unfortunately. This is where most employers may get a pause. Good news it that PHP, vanilla JS/jQuery etc are very much in demand. You need to be more focussed in your approach and fix the negatives. Perhaps go back to one of our freelance clients and ask for a job if they are hiring ? You need to have someone vouch for you since you have been out there for a long time. Then go from there. I hope this was helpful and not overly critical. Just trying to give it to you straight.

cutler 4y ago
jQuery in demand? Since when outside legacy work?
- rlayton2 4y ago
  Legacy work includes websites that were written a few years ago, but still work and don't need to be completely redone. Add some features, but a rebuild is unnecessary.
- snowwrestler 4y ago
  The point is, there is a ton of legacy work out there.
KennyBlanken 4y ago
> You have not worked for 2.5 years. That is a big gap and you need to be explain it well. God forbid people save up a bunch of money and decide to not work for a year or two. God forbid people have health issues that keep them from working. God forbid people lose their job, struggle at finding a new one - not because they're incompetent but because they're terrible at job hunting. Or because the job loss triggers mental health issues (which you can't get addressed because you don't have a job and lots of mental health professionals either don't touch anyone on insurance period, or they don't touch people on the subsidized healthcare plans.) Employers: "WE CAN'T FIND ANYONE TO WORK FOR US!" Employee with a 2.5 year gap: "Uh, hi?" Employers: "Not you."

sbmthakur 4y ago

What is W2 work?

tartoran 4y ago
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw2.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw2.pdf
spiffytech 4y ago
American shorthand for a permanent-position full-time employee (usually with benefits), as opposed to a contractor / freelancer. Named for the year-end tax document full-time employees receive.

notjustanymike 4y ago

Sign up for Frontend Masters, take the courses on React, Vue, Angular, Typescript, and CSS. See what other courses spike your interest. At the same time start participating in weekly coding challenges, as most of these are what show up in tech interviews. Build a project using a good API; I hear Spotify is a solid choice. You're still ahead of most graduates because your resume has experience. You just need to commit a solid month of learning to bring it up to date.

steve_adams_86 4y ago
There is a little exercise I was asked to do recently as part of a skills assessment, and it used the Spotify API. It’s not a bad way to practice: https://github.com/alexgurr/react-coding-challenges/tree/master/spootify https://github.com/alexgurr/react-coding-challenges/tree/mas...

quadcore 4y ago

Plenty of good advices out there. Remember that momentum is key. Someone once said to me, "its easier to get a girlfriend, a job, whatever, when you have one already". So get a job. A whichever job. For momentum sake.

adamredwoods 4y ago
I have had people tell me this when I was struggling, but I didn't go get a job "flipping burgers" or stocking shelves. It's demoralizing. I held out for better jobs and in the end, waiting and getting paid more was worth 3x more than working an entry-tier job. IMO, I suggest not getting "any" job, but attempt to get a related (I call it lateral shift) job.
- Mezzie 4y ago
  Also, there's an opportunity cost to taking any job. If that job exhausts you (either physically or mentally), then you're not going to be able to put your best foot forward in the application process, which can be killer if you're an unconventional applicant.

teledyn 4y ago

As one in the same boat and tired of LinkedIn sending false positives and cold calls from 'recruiters', and Google searches returning the same five filled jobs over and over under different job site guises, and /then/ reading about recruiting scams, I decided to take Sun RA's advice and get off that planet. Remember how fun this job used to be? Design meetings in pubs that included a go at Space Invaders, enabling all sorts of solutions that brought smiles instead of KPI's. A lot of it was because we were in the Frontier, things built from chicken-wire and duct tape, we had the who, thanks to Usenet and Fidonet, who gave us the where, and we had that common why of being evangelists of a new era. There was no money but that was because there were no VCs, we were free, in the GNU sense That today pretty much describes the Fediverse and ActivityPub, and the dawning need by non-technical folk that thinking small and 'local' is smarter than surveillance capitalism running recommendation algorithms only machines understand. So it's just like the world we know, only it includes golang Not that I've found any work there yet. It just feels way better than tunneling through superlatives on LinkedIn.

chiefalchemist 4y ago

Lots of good technical advice. And it sounds like you're getting at least some interviews so I'd like to suggest: - Have a professional review your CV / resume. It's a numbers game. You need more interviews, or perhaps more appropriate ones. A goid resume / CV won't get you hired. It just needs to get you an interview. - Work on your interview skills. If you're getting interviews then at least some believe you're qualified. The disconnect seems to be at the fit / culture level. When possible, record your interviews and then go back and listen to see where you can improve. - Looking into volunteering to do WordPress for a non-profit or two. That's worth listing on your resume. Perhaps revist your GH repos, make sure they reflect you and your coding skills.

novateg 4y ago

Nobody is talking about starting your own business, if you already know how to build websites and web apps try looking for a small businesses that need your services. Learn more about internet marketing services, SEO optimization etc. learn sales 101. I believe you will get tons of work.

rlayton2 4y ago
Yes! Just don't cold-email businesses with your offerings - lots and lots of low value options do! Instead, find local meetup groups of businesses and start making connections. Be the local business doing this.
BadCookie 4y ago
Is this still true with services like Squarespace and Shopify around? There are also many startups with millions in funding building sites for industry niches (e.g., Luxury Presence for high-end real estate). And many small businesses seem totally content with just their Facebook page. This feels like a tough area to compete in to me.
- rlayton2 4y ago
  Yes, but many non-technical business owners want to focus on other aspects of their company and just get someone to do that work.
- novateg 4y ago
  Business owners can’t always do everything. There are some aspects of the marketing, that requires some knowledge in the field

lubujackson 4y ago

I was in a similar position to you about a year ago, some old PHP skills and a long break from work. The biggest challenge at this stage is getting out of your own way and selling your strengths. I assure you, there are lots of companies right now with a roster of junior developers who are looking for a sage graybeard (if you are nearing 30 that is close enough) on the cheap, so embrace that role and angle yourself for it. Focus on your product and customer expertise and not the tech stack. Find the unsexy companies, plenty still operate remotely. For me, I got a job at an old PHP shop and after 8 mo. upgraded with a big salary boost to a React/Python role, both languages I picked up while job hunting. The biggest challenge for me? Getting comfortable with the GitHub workflow and working on a bigger team was a bigger shift than learning a language, so I would recommend sticking with PHP for now and find a job where you can get comfortable with that side of things first. The monthly HN job thread is a pretty good mix of companies so give that a shot.

trestletech 4y ago

In addition to the other suggestions here, Academia could be another interesting route. Look at the job boards for local colleges/universities/research centers in your area. They're typically struggling to find technical people to either: 1. maintain and update the main websites 2. administer other IT-related systems on-campus (may require brushing up on some Linux or Windows Server skills) 3. help with the coding side of their research There's a lot of low-hanging fruit available when it comes to coding needed for a research grant. Sometimes it's just standing up a basic website for a lab, but you'd be invaluable if you were able to help someone scrape together their pile of perl/R/python scripts into something that can be be hosted on a website. And IMHO the bar for quality is usually quite low -- many labs just want to have enough to earn/fulfill a grant and then move you on to the next project. I'll warn you that there's not a strong career path available for software developers in Academia at the moment. So you may eventually need to break out. But it strikes me as a viable way to get a few years of real software dev experience working on interesting projects which would definitely put you in a better spot to branch out elsewhere.

brundolf 4y ago

You talk about yourself like there's this hard barrier, like you've been barred from the "modern" web industry. But I'm going to guess you have a ton of experience with the web platform, and that's still relevant. If a new-grad can get up to speed on the currently-popular languages and frameworks, you should have no trouble doing so with all your added context. If it's a matter of not knowing where to start, I'd say start by looking at what the job listings are asking for. And then beyond that, HN is a good source for keeping a general "pulse" on the industry; that's the main reason I'm on here. Nothing's standing in your way, you just need to seek out and learn about the current landscape. You're in a perfectly fine position to do so.

yibg 4y ago

If you know you have skills gaps why haven’t you tried to fill them in the 2.5 years you’ve been unemployed? If you tried to build a SaaS business in that time, even with 0 revenue you’d have both some new experience as well as something you can put in front of employers when you do interviews. Can’t change the past of course but seems like you should take this time to also build something and learn in addition to job searching.

ramphastidae 4y ago

Make sure you have a clear story for why you haven’t worked in 2.5 years. It can be a complete lie. Don’t worry about that - it’s really none of their business, but you need to tell them what they want to hear to move forward. For example: - You were taking care of a sick family member - You became a stay-at-home parent to support your spouse - You were full-time contracting Keep it simple. 99% of the time it’s not an issue if the excuse is reasonable and your delivery is confident. The more personal the issue, the less likely they will probe.

iqkznnft 4y ago

You say that you're not good. Why aren't you good? Separate question, have you tried making an effort to improve?

mmmpop 4y ago

> software engineer who is self-taught > I don't know testing, cloud, or CI/CD practices "I'm a master craftsman but I don't know how to use a jigsaw, plane a table top, and also I'm missing my dominant hand." First, be honest with yourself and your skills, then re-craft your résumé. Honest to god though? Build a fake e-commerce store in Gatsby that isn't shitty, then get back to interviews. But this time you're "web developer".

racl101 4y ago
Heck, I know testing, cloud, CI/CD, devops, etc. and have been doing it for 9 years. And I still don't feel I can adequately call my self an engineer. I feel like I can't call myself an engineer cause while I'm a decent doer who executes well, I am not the one coming up with high level plans of architecture. I've never been put on the spot.
- mmmpop 4y ago
  Same, but for 12 years and I agree, even though I've done a lot of high-level architecture in the past few years. Some of my job consists of engineering no-doubt, but until I've graduated with my engineering BS, I'm just "developer" unless someone gives me a title that says otherwise.
  - mmmpop 4y ago
  - spearingthehead 4y ago
    Just been given the software engineer title at a few jobs, which I know is just a job title at this point.

harrisonjackson 4y ago

I'd probably start by asking myself, what type of company do I want to work for? And what type of job do I want? Scroll job boards and see what is out there and what appeals. Then go buff up any skills you need to get a job at those companies. A great way to do that is build a clone of some aspect of their product or business. This will prepare you for the interview and job like an insider. You'll be able to talk about the parts of the product that were hard and why. Then all of a sudden your interview is just a good conversation. Force yourself to do it the way an actual engineering organization does it, too. If you aren't sure _how_ engineering teams organize projects, deployments, testing, etc then do a lot of googling and even reach out directly to CTOs, PMs, Senior devs, etc at different companies and just explain your exact situation - even link to this thread. Lots of people are willing to take the time to help especially if it is as simple as saying... "At company X we do Y and Z" and then that gives you another thing to dig into. And you've potentially made a helpful contact/mentor. It sounds like you don't have a lot of extra time to develop yourself into the perfect candidate for your maybe dream job, so for now you could probably pay the bills using freelancing job sites and offering IT/web dev help to local small businesses.

rkalla 4y ago

I would look at sys admin type jobs at law firms, small medical practices and other places that need a “tech guy” but don’t need to hire a full time developer.

fxtentacle 4y ago

You should research how to describe what you did to make it more attractive. Apparently, you took a "sabbatical" to find your true purpose in life or whatever, so you took a long break from working. But you have experience with PHP and jquery, the foundations of WordPress, which is hosting a large part of all enterprise homepages and newspaper websites. I'd say do a few freelance homepage projects for small companies to show off that you still have all necessary skills and then you can approach a potential employer to level up to larger and more difficult projects. If you phrase it correctly, seeking a challenge will make you look motivated and energetic, i.e. like a great employee.

yobbo 4y ago

> I don't know testing, cloud, or CI/CD practices Like has been pointed out elsewhere; if this was carpentry, these would be new words to make "cutting, masking, and gluing" sound modern. For web frontends, everyone is self-taught, just like all carpenters are self-taught on the job (or as apprentices). Degrees are used as filters and for gatekeeping.

snowwrestler 4y ago

Web agencies would be a great place to look for work with that skill set. A quick way to find them is to look in the partner directories of Wordpress and Drupal hosting companies: https://wpengine.com/partners/agencies/ https://wpengine.com/partners/agencies/ https://directory.pantheon.io/agencies https://directory.pantheon.io/agencies https://www.acquia.com/partners/finder https://www.acquia.com/partners/finder

sydbarrett74 4y ago

deeplurker571 4y ago

Hey, I know you aren't asking for a job, but you should put some contact info in your profile. I might actually be able to use/help you in my small company/ dev shop. We do some basic dev, had issues with WordPress and focus on Vue projects. Sure I could probably hire some outsourced worker cheaper, but maybe we could be a fit. Maybe not, talk is cheap and I'd love to chat. In the very least some free mentors ng would be fun. My anon profile email should go through. Hope to chat!

rrmdp 4y ago

This 3 steps are key: 1) Make a good resume. 2) Work on GitHub portfolio, they need to know what you are capable to do (this is really important) 3) Don't be afraid to apply as much as you can! If you don't know where to apply, well there are tons of job boards nowadays, check out this great resource, a curated list of the best job boards out there that I am building: https://jobboardsearch.com https://jobboardsearch.com Good luck :)

nickd2001 4y ago

As a non-American who worked in USA for a while, I noticed, because its easy to fire people in USA, employers will take risks like hire someone with 100% liberal arts background for highly tech job. If it doesn't work out they can fire them. It seems to me, because of this, Americans have a lot more 2cnd chances than Europeans. Seems weird you're meeting such risk aversion in such a hot job market, with the skills you've got, which sound in demand. If people are having a weird reaction maybe its best to be 100% honest with them and say, due to various factors such as looking after your mother etc, your career has never quite got off the ground, but you're motivated and hard-working, and ask them to try you out. Tell 'em "give me a coupe months you'll see results, fire me if you don't". I'd think someone will bite, for that.... You just need 1 job where you achieve lift-off, and the future is golden. (This comment assumes you're actually in USA not a risk-averse country, but even then... persuade someone to try you on temporary basis first, probation period etc, and try to be a rock star quickly...)