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Buy a Ferrari if you want to race, buy a Lamborghini if you want to shop on Rodeo drive.

by fosk 4y ago

short_sells_poo 4y ago
Modern Ferraris are amazing driver's cars. To this day, the single best driving experience I've ever had was in a 458 Speciale. There are better engineered cars, there are faster cars, there are more comfortable cars, but this to me is the embodiment of what a car can do. It is just an amazing feeling to drive it. It's like using a precision instrument that somehow immediately becomes an extension of your body. It's really uncanny. None of the Lamborghini's I was fortunate enough to drive came close to this.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Ferrari got rid of the gearshift :-(
  - mauvehaus 4y ago
    I like driving manual as much as the next person (and have been for 25 years), but I full well acknowledge that I'd be way out of my depth driving any modern Ferrari. And let's be honest: if you're worried about lap times, the flappy paddle gearbox is faster. It will never replace the joy of rowing your own gears or nailing a downshift, but it's almost certainly a win in terms of reliability under real world drivers and pace under all drivers.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      The flappy paddle is cheating and boring. You gotta master the heal-toe brake double-clutch downshift going into a turn, or you're not a real driver.
      - mauvehaus 4y ago
        I'm not saying it's not, but I stand by my claim (completely unsupported by evidence, I'll admit) that somewhere between 4 and 6 nines of drivers are completely outclassed and lack the experience to drive a 500hp+ car competently, nevermind get the most out of it on a track, with a manual. I owned an '86 Subaru BRAT with an EJ22 swap and a cranky transmission (heel-toe and double clutching required down into 1 and 2), and truly nailing a smooth 3-2 downshift with the transmission shifting sweetly into 2 was an occasion to be celebrated. I am 100% confident that I'd nail it less than 1/10th as often in any modern supercar with a manual. I've also driven an E36 M3 (US spec) and a 458. I know I lack the training and experience to stay ahead of either of them on the limit. I suspect most other people do too.
        WalterBright 4y ago
        My car is much more powerful than my expertise. I have a lot of fun with it, but I'm careful to stay within my skill level. The machinist who built my engine said he wouldn't have done it if I was under 40. I enjoy practicing double-clutching heel-toeing downshifting. Paddle shifters, phooey.
      - compiler-guy 4y ago
        Every F1 pilot on the planet just might disagree that they aren’t real drivers. Technology has moved on.
        donthellbanme 4y ago
        WalterBright 4y ago
        > Technology has moved on. A number of technologies have been banned from F1 because they were too good. (Other sports, too, like aluminum bats in major league baseball.) When an AI bot is driving the car, are you still going to watch F1?
        jabl 4y ago
        > Technology has moved on. Well, how far do you want to take that argument? One could argue the last time high performance piston engine engineering actually mattered was in the aero engines of the 1940'ies. Then you had the might of nation states pouring resources (directly, or indirectly through buying lots of them) into making the absolutely highest performing (in terms of power/weight) engines. With some consideration to reliability, of course, and relatively little consideration to cost. Producing masterpieces like the mighty R-2800. After that the serious development money went into turbines. Sure, piston engine development didn't stop, but the development going into "performance at any cost" was a pittance compared to other priorities.
    - short_sells_poo 4y ago
      Agreed 100%. I learned to drive manual, but I'd never go back to it :) There's not a chance in hell I could ever learn to switch as fast as a flappy paddle in a modern supercar.
- KennyBlanken 4y ago
  "It's not the best engineered, it's not the fastest, it's not he most comfortable, but..." Perfectly summed up Ferraris: gorgeous, nice-sounding marketing fluff.
  - Bubble_Pop_22 4y ago
    It's not marketing. Design matters. Germans have many qualities but design is just not one of them. They just can't do it and especially Porsche they are still running with the elongated Beetle design from the 1940s. Over at Porsche they are making the same car over and over again ever since the 1940s Beetle. Once you remove the Porsche brand what do the Germans have left which can compete with Ferrari? Audi R8? Have you seen the new Daytona FP3? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA66mWhznVs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA66mWhznVs Porsche doesn't even dream about making something like that. In a sense it's true that the supercar battle is Ferrari vs. Lamborghini. They are the only game in town because design matters. The former is timeless and elegant and the latter aggressive and bold...but they are both aestetically pleasing and merit being in an art museum.
    - wcarron 4y ago
      Porsche doesn't dream of making something like the FP3 because their 'elongated beetle design' is still curb stomping almost every other competitor into the ground. McLaren is essentially their only real competition, if we aren't counting multimillion dollar vehicles like a Rimac or Bugatti. Porsche still holds the Nurburgring lap time title with their GT2 RS; and their GT3 and GT3 RS (multiple generations) as well as the ol' 918 Spyder are still among the top times posted. As far as I'm aware there's not a single ferrari that's cracked 7:00 on the lap. FWIW, I think the GT3 RS is probably the pinnacle of functional design (among commonly-known models). It's aggressively winged, but the original design is literally decades old. Timeless and elegant. I'd take the Porsche 10000 times out of 10 over a Ferrari. Edit: You are also aware that the V10 in the Audi R8 is the same engine that powers Lamborghini's, right? Like almost all engines (e.g. The small block LS, the ford 5.0, the subaru 2L boxer), it's an older design that's been updated as needed.
- in3d 4y ago
  I’ve driven multiple Ferraris and Lamborghini on various tracks for many hours. I agree that Ferraris are better on the track in general: historically they’ve been lighter and RWD vs AWD. You’re still more likely to see them during track days than Lambos and Ferrari as a company does more racing. The track-oriented models like 458 Speciale (I haven’t driven it) are usually even more visceral because of a louder exhaust note, harder suspension, being lighter and lower, racing seats, etc.
KennyBlanken 4y ago
You have that backwards, at least in terms of production road cars. You know what you will never see? A Ferrari performance-tested against another car by a TV program or newspaper or magazine publisher. They prohibit journalists from doing head-to-head comparison testing against other brands because they didn't perform that well compared to, well, everything else. Top Gear finally got so sick of their bullshit that they very famously went public, describing all the things Ferrari would do when they delivered a car for review. This including spending days testing the car around the Top Gear test track themselves, pouring over data, adjusting everything on the car specifically for their test track. Something no other car company did, and something they would never do for an owner of a street car. I believe they also put on special, non-stock tires, but I could be wrong. They did it because Top Gear was the one outlet they couldn't say no to such a test. So they cheated. The one time Ferrari was forced to actually submit to a performance test, they cheated. The result? Ferrari not only stopped providing Top Gear with cars, they forbade customers from loaning or renting a car to Top Gear for test or review. Anyone found to have provided a vehicle to Top Gear would lose the right to purchase a new Ferrari for life. Ferrari also banned Chris Harris, another famous British motoring journalist, after he also revealed that Ferrari were equipping and tuning their press cars differently than customer cars. Ferrari also refuses to test or publish lap times at the Nurburgring: https://www.thedrive.com/news/8147/ferrari-reminds-us-it-doesnt-care-about-nurburgring-records https://www.thedrive.com/news/8147/ferrari-reminds-us-it-doe... Yes, 'ring times can be a bit silly, but like racing, they're a statement of what the manufacturer is capable of. Ferrari refuses to play games, and oh hey, what do you know: the fastest ferrari timed around the course is slower than a whole slew of Porsches: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N%C3%BCrburgring_Nordschleife_lap_times https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N%C3%BCrburgring_Nords...
- Melatonic 4y ago
  I have also heard they are unreliable as fuck from multiple people.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    I also heard that warning about Alfa Romeos. I drove mine 124K miles over 11 years with normal maintenance (all easily DIY) and only one failure in that time (a Bosch distributor broke internally, so nothing Alfa-specific). If a long-term owner told you that, by all means consider it; if a non-owner (including a mechanic) tells you second/third-hand horror stories, I’d be pretty inclined to ignore them.

Buy a Ferrari if you want to race, buy a Lamborghini if you want to shop on Rodeo drive.

by fosk 4y ago

Buy a Ferrari if you want to race, buy a Lamborghini if you want to shop on Rodeo drive.

Modern Ferraris are amazing driver's cars. To this day, the single best driving experience I've ever had was in a 458 Speciale. There are better engineered cars, there are faster cars, there are more comfortable cars, but this to me is the embodiment of what a car can do. It is just an amazing feeling to drive it. It's like using a precision instrument that somehow immediately becomes an extension of your body. It's really uncanny. None of the Lamborghini's I was fortunate enough to drive came close to this.

WalterBright 4y ago
Ferrari got rid of the gearshift :-(
- mauvehaus 4y ago
  I like driving manual as much as the next person (and have been for 25 years), but I full well acknowledge that I'd be way out of my depth driving any modern Ferrari. And let's be honest: if you're worried about lap times, the flappy paddle gearbox is faster. It will never replace the joy of rowing your own gears or nailing a downshift, but it's almost certainly a win in terms of reliability under real world drivers and pace under all drivers.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    The flappy paddle is cheating and boring. You gotta master the heal-toe brake double-clutch downshift going into a turn, or you're not a real driver.
    - mauvehaus 4y ago
      I'm not saying it's not, but I stand by my claim (completely unsupported by evidence, I'll admit) that somewhere between 4 and 6 nines of drivers are completely outclassed and lack the experience to drive a 500hp+ car competently, nevermind get the most out of it on a track, with a manual. I owned an '86 Subaru BRAT with an EJ22 swap and a cranky transmission (heel-toe and double clutching required down into 1 and 2), and truly nailing a smooth 3-2 downshift with the transmission shifting sweetly into 2 was an occasion to be celebrated. I am 100% confident that I'd nail it less than 1/10th as often in any modern supercar with a manual. I've also driven an E36 M3 (US spec) and a 458. I know I lack the training and experience to stay ahead of either of them on the limit. I suspect most other people do too.
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        My car is much more powerful than my expertise. I have a lot of fun with it, but I'm careful to stay within my skill level. The machinist who built my engine said he wouldn't have done it if I was under 40. I enjoy practicing double-clutching heel-toeing downshifting. Paddle shifters, phooey.
    - compiler-guy 4y ago
      Every F1 pilot on the planet just might disagree that they aren’t real drivers. Technology has moved on.
      - donthellbanme 4y ago
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        > Technology has moved on. A number of technologies have been banned from F1 because they were too good. (Other sports, too, like aluminum bats in major league baseball.) When an AI bot is driving the car, are you still going to watch F1?
      - jabl 4y ago
        > Technology has moved on. Well, how far do you want to take that argument? One could argue the last time high performance piston engine engineering actually mattered was in the aero engines of the 1940'ies. Then you had the might of nation states pouring resources (directly, or indirectly through buying lots of them) into making the absolutely highest performing (in terms of power/weight) engines. With some consideration to reliability, of course, and relatively little consideration to cost. Producing masterpieces like the mighty R-2800. After that the serious development money went into turbines. Sure, piston engine development didn't stop, but the development going into "performance at any cost" was a pittance compared to other priorities.
  - short_sells_poo 4y ago
    Agreed 100%. I learned to drive manual, but I'd never go back to it :) There's not a chance in hell I could ever learn to switch as fast as a flappy paddle in a modern supercar.
KennyBlanken 4y ago
"It's not the best engineered, it's not the fastest, it's not he most comfortable, but..." Perfectly summed up Ferraris: gorgeous, nice-sounding marketing fluff.
- Bubble_Pop_22 4y ago
  It's not marketing. Design matters. Germans have many qualities but design is just not one of them. They just can't do it and especially Porsche they are still running with the elongated Beetle design from the 1940s. Over at Porsche they are making the same car over and over again ever since the 1940s Beetle. Once you remove the Porsche brand what do the Germans have left which can compete with Ferrari? Audi R8? Have you seen the new Daytona FP3? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA66mWhznVs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA66mWhznVs Porsche doesn't even dream about making something like that. In a sense it's true that the supercar battle is Ferrari vs. Lamborghini. They are the only game in town because design matters. The former is timeless and elegant and the latter aggressive and bold...but they are both aestetically pleasing and merit being in an art museum.
  - wcarron 4y ago
    Porsche doesn't dream of making something like the FP3 because their 'elongated beetle design' is still curb stomping almost every other competitor into the ground. McLaren is essentially their only real competition, if we aren't counting multimillion dollar vehicles like a Rimac or Bugatti. Porsche still holds the Nurburgring lap time title with their GT2 RS; and their GT3 and GT3 RS (multiple generations) as well as the ol' 918 Spyder are still among the top times posted. As far as I'm aware there's not a single ferrari that's cracked 7:00 on the lap. FWIW, I think the GT3 RS is probably the pinnacle of functional design (among commonly-known models). It's aggressively winged, but the original design is literally decades old. Timeless and elegant. I'd take the Porsche 10000 times out of 10 over a Ferrari. Edit: You are also aware that the V10 in the Audi R8 is the same engine that powers Lamborghini's, right? Like almost all engines (e.g. The small block LS, the ford 5.0, the subaru 2L boxer), it's an older design that's been updated as needed.
in3d 4y ago
I’ve driven multiple Ferraris and Lamborghini on various tracks for many hours. I agree that Ferraris are better on the track in general: historically they’ve been lighter and RWD vs AWD. You’re still more likely to see them during track days than Lambos and Ferrari as a company does more racing. The track-oriented models like 458 Speciale (I haven’t driven it) are usually even more visceral because of a louder exhaust note, harder suspension, being lighter and lower, racing seats, etc.

KennyBlanken 4y ago

You have that backwards, at least in terms of production road cars. You know what you will never see? A Ferrari performance-tested against another car by a TV program or newspaper or magazine publisher. They prohibit journalists from doing head-to-head comparison testing against other brands because they didn't perform that well compared to, well, everything else. Top Gear finally got so sick of their bullshit that they very famously went public, describing all the things Ferrari would do when they delivered a car for review. This including spending days testing the car around the Top Gear test track themselves, pouring over data, adjusting everything on the car specifically for their test track. Something no other car company did, and something they would never do for an owner of a street car. I believe they also put on special, non-stock tires, but I could be wrong. They did it because Top Gear was the one outlet they couldn't say no to such a test. So they cheated. The one time Ferrari was forced to actually submit to a performance test, they cheated. The result? Ferrari not only stopped providing Top Gear with cars, they forbade customers from loaning or renting a car to Top Gear for test or review. Anyone found to have provided a vehicle to Top Gear would lose the right to purchase a new Ferrari for life. Ferrari also banned Chris Harris, another famous British motoring journalist, after he also revealed that Ferrari were equipping and tuning their press cars differently than customer cars. Ferrari also refuses to test or publish lap times at the Nurburgring: https://www.thedrive.com/news/8147/ferrari-reminds-us-it-doesnt-care-about-nurburgring-records https://www.thedrive.com/news/8147/ferrari-reminds-us-it-doe... Yes, 'ring times can be a bit silly, but like racing, they're a statement of what the manufacturer is capable of. Ferrari refuses to play games, and oh hey, what do you know: the fastest ferrari timed around the course is slower than a whole slew of Porsches: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N%C3%BCrburgring_Nordschleife_lap_times https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N%C3%BCrburgring_Nords...

Melatonic 4y ago
I have also heard they are unreliable as fuck from multiple people.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  I also heard that warning about Alfa Romeos. I drove mine 124K miles over 11 years with normal maintenance (all easily DIY) and only one failure in that time (a Bosch distributor broke internally, so nothing Alfa-specific). If a long-term owner told you that, by all means consider it; if a non-owner (including a mechanic) tells you second/third-hand horror stories, I’d be pretty inclined to ignore them.