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By the way, that's also how Tesla and all other cars have the same electric plug in EU(not the USB mandate but the car plug standardisation mandate). Of course

by mrtksn 4y ago

By the way, that's also how Tesla and all other cars have the same electric plug in EU(not the USB mandate but the car plug standardisation mandate). Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is what happens if better solutions are found. Will EU block innovation? That question is addressed in the Q&A: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/QANDA_21_4614 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/QANDA_... In essence, they seem to believe that wired charging is mature enough for standardisation but further technologies can be implemented through "Radio Equipment Directive". In the same time, it appears that the wireless charging is unaffected because the tech is new and fast changing, therefore the manufacturers can include whatever wireless charging they see fit. It really boils down to "No funny cables, why don't you try wireless charging of your liking if USB-C doesn't cut it for you?".

bluGill 4y ago
The constitution gives US congress the right to set standards for weights and measures, which unless you use a very strict reading says they can set charging standards. I wish they would. Tesla (and Nissan) as early movers 10 years ago can be forgiven for not adopting a standard charger, but now they need to update to the standard. (IIRC both are planning on it)
- golemotron 4y ago
  Reading charging standards as "weights and measures" is on par with classifying bumblebees as fish. Not only aren't these strict readings, they aren't even sensible.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    Standardization of metering devices used in commerce is directly in the purview of Weights and Measures regulation. For example, NIST Weights and Measures division regulates the nozzle on the dispenser used for gasoline in the US. > Each retail dispensing device from which fuel products are sold shall be equipped with a nozzle spout having a diameter that conforms with the latest version of SAE J285, “Dispenser Nozzle Spouts for Liquid Fuel Intended for Use with Spark-Ignition and Compression Ignition Engines.” https://www.nist.gov/system/files/documents/2019/12/06/00-20-h130-iv-g-final-12.pdf https://www.nist.gov/system/files/documents/2019/12/06/00-20... A metering devices that dispenses electrical power is no different. https://www.nist.gov/pml/weights-and-measures/legal-metrology-devices/electric-vehicle-fueling-and-submetering https://www.nist.gov/pml/weights-and-measures/legal-metrolog...
    - golemotron 4y ago
      It's an overreach. "A pound is 16 ounces" is not the same as "cakes shall only be 5 ounces," i.e., a standard of measure does not extend to regulation of what is measured and what measures are permitted. An originalist court could fix this.
      - kube-system 4y ago
        That analogy does not hold up. A fuel dispenser is a metering device. The scale at your grocery store that measures the weight of the cake is, likewise, an NTEP scale: https://www.nist.gov/programs-projects/national-type-evaluation-program-ntep https://www.nist.gov/programs-projects/national-type-evaluat... These are very fundamental consumer protection regulations that have been solidly cemented in western civilization for many centuries now. >not extend to regulation of [...] what measures are permitted. That was exactly the point of that clause. The colonies all had their own system of measurement and it was a mess trying to do business. Now, congress did very little about it, but the founders intentionally reserved the right for them to fix that problem.
        golemotron 4y ago
        The problem with your formulation is that there is no limiting principle. Perversely, the government could rule that a pregnant person is a metering device for gestation and establish standards.
        kube-system 4y ago
        No, a pregnancy does not meter any commercial exchange of goods.
    - nybble41 4y ago
      Ensuring accurate metering in the context of commerce is within the scope of "To … fix the Standard of Weights and Measures". The specific form of the nozzle clearly is not, but they might justify it on the basis of some other enumerated power—the interstate commerce clause is frequently (ab)used for this sort of thing. Nothing technically requires every regulation produced by the NIST Weights and Measures division to be grounded exclusively in the Weights and Measures clause, though one could be forgiven for making that assumption. As dpratt remarked earlier[0], any interpretation which would deem nozzle size—or the specific form of an electrical connector—to be covered by the Weights and Measures clause of the Constitution would effectively cede unlimited power to the federal government. What couldn't they regulate under such broad rules? [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31654558 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31654558
  - Dylan16807 4y ago
    > on par with classifying bumblebees as fish So you're saying it's quite reasonable when you look at what actually happened? The law defined a handful of categories. "fish" is actually "fish and miscellaneous". Invertebrates are explicitly part of that miscellaneous.
  - astrange 4y ago
    > par with classifying bumblebees as fish Society claiming this is wrong and being correct is exactly balanced by society claiming whales aren't fish and being incorrect. (Whales are fish because they're descendants of fish and are more closely related to salmon than sharks are. The same goes for you. You're also a fish.)
- dpratt 4y ago
  If by “strict reading” you mean “any reading at all”, I would agree. I’m not sure how the legal power to say “the unit of mass called the ‘gram’ shall be defined as the mass of a cube of pure water, one centimeter on each side” allows you to say “anybody that manufactures a phone must include the following physical and logical features.” If you go off that definition, you’re basically ceding pretty much unlimited power to the government.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    For phones, you’re right. For cars, we have public metering devices that measure units of stuff and charge money. This makes it fall into the category of metering devices used in trade. And we do regulate those almost universally. You can’t just put a different shape nozzle on a gas pump, for instance.
- larryett 4y ago
  If only we had mandated VGA 20 years ago I wouldn't have to stress over all these different connections under my monitor. You can't possibly believe what you typed.
arlort 4y ago
IIRC it doesn't even exclude funny cables as long as the option remains to use an USB-C cable too So if you really want I believe you could issue a double port Clunky for smartphones maybe, but should be trivial for larger devices
- mrtksn 4y ago
  That's also my understanding. So Macbook Air 2022 with MagSafe charging will be completely legal as long as the USB-C can be used for charging.
  - pooper 4y ago
    That is good because I think as late as three years ago there was still at least one "laptop" (possibly more, only one I have heard of) which were heavy desktop replacement that required two power bricks during some gaming.
    - arlort 4y ago
      For that kind of power draw I think the proposal doesn't mandate anything anyway
jeroenhd 4y ago
In the USA all modern electric cars also use the normal standard, except for Tesla. There were a few early offshoots and Tesla had good reason to come up with their own connector initially (no other plug could transfer that much power!) but these days everything has been pretty much consolidated. For charging your car at Tesla chargers that haven't been upgraded to the standard yet there are adaptors available from Tesla plugs to standard fast charging plugs. Older cars may need their weird custom connections but everything else has been pretty much been standardised. I don't know how much the EU decision has affected this, but it's not an EU exclusive feat.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  There's this thing called Brussels effect where manufacturers pick to default to EU requirements instead of having different supply chains unless they absolutely have to. EU don't like the idea of manufacturers locking down their users through different standards. EU is a densely populated place with limited natural resources and free space, therefore cables piling up or 10 different types of charging stations are problems that EU cannot afford. EU trash being shipped to poorer countries is already a serious problem for example. Good to hear that in the US only Tesla was the outlier and the industry acted responsibly but unless regulated you can't guarantee that it will be like that or stay like that. Businesses love to lock down their users, Tesla chargers are a major selling point for Tesla and from EU perspective having multiple charging networks that cannot be made interoperable without a substantial modifications is a no-no.
  - wfhordie 4y ago
    > cannot be made interoperable without a substantial modifications is a no-no. This sentence seems to imply that one cannot charge their non-Tesla car with the Tesla charging network without substantial modifications. What do you mean by substantial modification? It is already possible for non-Tesla cars, in the United States, to charge at Tesla destination chargers with an adapter: https://qccharge.com/collections/jdapter-stub™-tesla-station-adapter/products/jdapter-stub™-80-amp-tesla-to-j1772-adaptor https://qccharge.com/collections/jdapter-stub™-tesla-station... There isn’t anything particular magic about Tesla Superchargers, either. A simple adapter+some API for the app will open it right up. I’m not against standardization, btw.
peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> "No funny cables, why don't you try wireless charging of your liking if USB-C doesn't cut it for you?". it boils down to "as long as the USB-C is provided" anyway electric plugs have been a standard for decades, better options to supply energy have come out, the plugs have stayed the same. I don't understand the FOMO.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  > it boils down to "as long as the USB-C is provided" Can you provide a source? AFAIK you can have a device without USB-C and only wireless charging.
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    it's literally in the first page in so far as they are capable of being recharged via wired charging, shall: so you can have all the funny cables you want, as long as you provide the USB-C plug If there is no wired charging, there is no problem of funny cables. but companies are free to experiment all the kinds of wired charging they want, it's just more convenient to have a standard and they'll comply happily I guess, now that they are forced by the law and can stop competing on stupid stuff like charging cables.
    - dfox 4y ago
      There is a huge question of what exactly “are capable of being recharged via wired charging” means. Does the hidden Lightning connector on Apple Watch that most consumers don't even know is there count?
samatman 4y ago
> Will EU block innovation? It already has. Tesla's connector is nicer (you can call that subjective but it isn't) and the supercharging network in the US is deploying the clunky standard sort of connector as well. If EU legislation were universal, that would preclude any future where the superior connector is licensed and takes over from the crappy designed-by-committee alternative, because Tesla would be forced to stop manufacturing it. Legislators deciding who gets to be VHS and who has to be Betamax is bad, actually.
- itsoktocry 4y ago
  >Legislators deciding who gets to be VHS and who has to be Betamax is bad, actually Interesting example. Betamax was technologically superior, but lost out due to marginally higher costs. What makes you think Tesla's connector wouldn't suffer the same fate?
- malfist 4y ago
  How is tesla's connector nicer?
  - bin_bash 4y ago
    It’s a lot smaller, locks into the car while charging, and doesn’t have an extra flap you have to open when using DC fast charging.
    - objclxt 4y ago
      > locks into the car while charging The EU plug locks into the car while charging. Not sure why you think it doesn't. There's also no obligation to have an extra flap, my Model 3 does not.
      - thinkindie 4y ago
        I second this. I'm frequently using the volkswagen ID.3 and there is no way to unplug it unless you unlock it from charging station with the card you find it in the car (at least in Berlin).
gumby 4y ago
> Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is what happens if better solutions are found. Didn’t the EU previously mandate micro USB A? I believe Apple included an adapter in the box for all EU SKUs. Edit: it was not compulsory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply
gumby 4y ago
> Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is what happens if better solutions are found. Will EU block innovation? Previously the EU had a (non-compulsory) rule on micro A as the charging standard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply Plus they leave the door open for a wireless alternative.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
seanmcdirmid 4y ago
What if Apple finally comes out with wired mag safe for the iPhone? Does they count as wireless? Or would it be illegal in Europe because a wire was still involved even if the connection was magnetic?
- arcticbull 4y ago
  How about we wait until Apple comes up with a MagSafe connector for phones they want to use and the big bad regulators won't let them? Tim Cook has his own PR team, haha.
  - ericd 4y ago
    Don’t you think this might discourage them from investing the R&D to make something that’ll require a fight to release?
    - arcticbull 4y ago
      Since they've been using Lightning for about 10 years now, I'd say there's other things that are inhibiting their innovation. I suspect it has more to do with third-party accessory manufacturers. Unless you're suggesting that connector innovation requires at least a 10 year iteration cycle?
      - ericd 4y ago
        Yeah, people generally don’t want to have to throw out all that stuff after a short period of time, and after a long period, they’ve got even more money invested in that setup, so if it’s not broken… there’s just not really much of a compelling benefit to change types from the perspective of most normal people, and there are concrete downsides in the form of money sunk into it. Anyway, I like USB-C more, I have to carry them anyway, so it’d eliminate one cable when I travel. We’re as close as I’ve ever seen to having the one cable to rule them all, which is pretty cool.
- zitterbewegung 4y ago
  USBC can be made to be "MagSafe". When Apple only sold laptops with USB-C ports there were a bunch of MagSafe knockoffs sold for laptops. Although most of the time they would break eventually but it's not impossible. If it just was a special cord as long as you could use a regular USBC cord it seems like it would be compliant but IANAL.
seu 4y ago
> Will EU block innovation? Innovation is overrated. And standardising is not blocking. What we need more urgently than innovation is to stop creating so much waste, extracting so much stuff from the earth, and in general reduce consumption. Standardisation accomplishes at least some of that.
- throwaway92394 4y ago
  > Innovation is overrated. And standardising is not blocking. Hard disagree? Both lightning and USB C were massive improvements in durability compared to Micro USB - I'd argue lightning is still better in that regard, because there's no thin piece inside the phone that can break (did phone repair, and 99% of the time a "broken" iphone port was just stuck lint). USB C is not universally better then then Micro, namely it has a much larger footprint both on the connector side and the PCB. > Will EU block innovation? So my question is - if there's a new USB standard connector that's smaller, or is inside-out for better durability - is it now prevented from being used?
  - treesknees 4y ago
    Granted this isn't the fault of the connector, but USB-C is certainly a mess. My Nintendo Switch uses USB-C charging, but I can't use my MacBook charger for it. There are different cables, ratings, etc. "make everything USB-C" is asking for confusion. As much as I hate having a different cable for every device, at least when I pick up a (Apple-branded) lightning cable, I know it will work correctly for my iPhone.
    - patentatt 4y ago
      Isn't the switch a notorious outlier and oddball with respect to its usb-c implementation though? I think it's more just that Nintendo screwed up one product than the standard is bad.
      - treesknees 4y ago
        It's certainly the most popular example of poor implementation. But one could argue that USB-C isn't even implemented and they just used the connector/form factor for their cable. I recall the RPI4 also having issues early on with power over USB-C. But that's precisely my problem with this - if we're forcing every device to merely adopt a USB-C port, that does nothing to ensure they're actually using USB-C specifications or interoperable. Game System X and Phone Y may only work with USB-C cables/chargers X and Y, which satisfy the requirement without fixing the compatibility problem.
lynguist 4y ago
Look, we have the headphone jack (6.35mm) stemming from 1877, and its miniature form (3.5mm) from 1960. It’s ok to let USB-C live for another 60-100 years.
- mmis1000 4y ago
  It will probably last for very long consider 24 wire of type c is a lot compares to 4 of 3.5mm jack. And it can actually be repurposed by changing the protocol (software) ? Probably until someday that 24 physical wire isn't enough for a phone. (but the iPhone don't even use the usb3 yet, why did it even need these bandwidth?)
- CardenB 4y ago
  This is a flawed comparison because the use cases for the former examples are very limited in comparison to USB C which is arguably evolving rapidly still. You could imagine if we had formed such a standard around USB A in the 90s and how it might have blocked the already high friction establishment of USB C and thunderbolt 3 standards. USB C currently seems more mature than USB A, so I can see where things ar ea bit subjective here, but it's not really possible to see where unrestricted development would have put us. I think I would have been more comfortable with simply banning lightning and micro USB than restricting to only USB C.
  - bonzini 4y ago
    The first version of the EU regulation suggested USB micro. There's a reason why it took ten years to go from suggestion to requirement.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    This regulation is about charging - so power, not data / thunderbolt. And when it comes to charging USB C can delvier 100W, which is enough for any small gadget, phone, etc.
    - Dylan16807 4y ago
      They upgraded it to 240W.
izzydata 4y ago
It would be nice if we could limit new standards to once every 5-10 years. At which time people can submit new ideas for standardization approval and then the best one gets picked and everyone is required to switch. Backwards compatibility would probably score a lot of points.
qwerty456127 4y ago
> Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is what happens if better solutions are found. Will EU block innovation? The EU has no problem with updating to improved standards. First there was USB-Mini-B, then USB-Micro-B, now USB-C. I would expect some different connector to replace it in a about a decade and 100% wireless in two decades roughly.
- ranguna 4y ago
  USB-C only came to light because of the out of standard Intel's lightning cable. Same thing for x86 vs arm, you can't really block one in favour of the other.
- rektide 4y ago
  Mini-B (2000) had serious reliability problems, and would often damage the device rather than the cable. Micro-B (2007) was a pretty smart & necessary response. USB-C (2014) elegantly encompassed the additional high-speed data-connectivity that the hideous huge SuperSpeed USB Micro-B (2008) tacked on, & added significant future-proofing/adaptability (alt-modes). I have a hard time imagining much advantage beyond USB-C. It's pretty mechanically fit & reliable, it has huge bandwidth (I think DisplayPort alt-modes can do 80Gbps?), it can transmit 240W in Extended Power Range variants. Someday perhaps. But I also think this might be here to stay for a long long time.
  - qwerty456127 4y ago
    I would bet the industry will invent something to replace it anyway, even if there's no good reason for the change. Or maybe there will be some fundamental leap making 80 Gbps as irrelevant as 9600 bps are today.
    - rektide 4y ago
      Please Intel... I still want it: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/03/intel-thunderbolt-optical-cabling-coming-this-year/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/03/intel-thunderbolt-op... Side note, there's some really really cheap fiber optic DisplayPort cables out there. They work, they're whatever length you want, mine were ~$0.60/foot. My monitors are 4k60 & 2k170; all resolutions run great. I feel like we're not too far off from fiber maybe happening for real.
mmis1000 4y ago
> Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is what happens if better solutions are found. Will EU block innovation? Usb typec wire from 65A(non e-marked wire) to 240A(the latest standardized e-marked wire) uses literally the same plug. Typec is the header but not the protocol. Even China phone vendor's proprietary high speed charging protocol use typec wire. And Intel's tb4 wire also use a type c wire. (the bandwidth of tb4 is definitely overkill for every phone ever made on the world for now) Force use of typec header and baseline charging protocol prevent innovation is just bs consider this didn't even prevent apple from making a MFA e-marked typec cable.(Or they don't want this to pass because they actually want to do this again?)
- Dylan16807 4y ago
  > the bandwidth of tb4 is definitely overkill for every phone ever made on the world for now That depends on what you're doing with it. It would not be very strange to power a VR headset with a phone, which could easily get into that bandwidth range.
  - kanetw 4y ago
    I'm considering TBT3/4 for our VR headset's tethered mode. It's a bit of a pain to implement, but the data rate is worth it. For reference, we need 2-4 lanes of DP HBR3 (depending on compression) + PCIe Gen3x4 for the camera passthrough. TBT3/4 could do it over a single cable. Feeds into the nightmare that is implementing that entire ecosystem though...
vel0city 4y ago
The tech for wireless charging is not really that new and isn't really changing a large amount. My Nokia 920 uses the same charging standard as the latest iPhones. iPhones can charge on the old charger I have, the 920 can charge on an iPhone charger. That phone came out a decade ago.
Vladimof 4y ago
> Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is what happens if better solutions are found. Will EU block innovation? no... we also had the Micro USB standard because of Europe...
smaryjerry 4y ago
Standards are a good thing but I’m not sure that we have reached this point where USB-C is functionally the best. If we could completely eliminate on all other types of connectors on not just phones but computers then I would say it’s time to standardize. Unfortunately on my computer if I want a 4K resolution and frame rate that is way 300 hz then is it even possible that can be done over a USB-C connector? Hopefully some expert can chime in but display port or hdmi 2.1+ or multiple of those cables is what is used typically, and if USB-c worked perfectly why isn’t that already replacing every single port on a computer? Phones will eventually be as fast or faster than the current computers, so why implement a limitation when it feels like phones are still at the baby steps in phone evolution? That is just data transfer and I’m no expert but I’m not certain either than charging has reached it’s final form either. Am I wrong, is the USB-c connector capable of infinite data transfer rate as long as your cable is good enough?
ciupicri 4y ago
Speaking of cars and standardization, I'm still waiting for the European Union to put the steering wheel on the left side of the car and while we're at it, make it mandatory to drive on the right side of the road.
- lrem 4y ago
  Demographics seems to suggest that the prospect of unification is not unrealistic within our lifetimes.
- umeshunni 4y ago
  In another generation, cars will be self driving and this will just be a code change.
- maest 4y ago
  Is your point that since there exist a standard which occurred without government intervention, then the government should never intervene to create any standards?
  - ciupicri 4y ago
    No, the point is the UE can't standardize even this "simple" thing.

by mrtksn 4y ago

bluGill 4y ago

The constitution gives US congress the right to set standards for weights and measures, which unless you use a very strict reading says they can set charging standards. I wish they would. Tesla (and Nissan) as early movers 10 years ago can be forgiven for not adopting a standard charger, but now they need to update to the standard. (IIRC both are planning on it)

golemotron 4y ago
Reading charging standards as "weights and measures" is on par with classifying bumblebees as fish. Not only aren't these strict readings, they aren't even sensible.
- kube-system 4y ago
  Standardization of metering devices used in commerce is directly in the purview of Weights and Measures regulation. For example, NIST Weights and Measures division regulates the nozzle on the dispenser used for gasoline in the US. > Each retail dispensing device from which fuel products are sold shall be equipped with a nozzle spout having a diameter that conforms with the latest version of SAE J285, “Dispenser Nozzle Spouts for Liquid Fuel Intended for Use with Spark-Ignition and Compression Ignition Engines.” https://www.nist.gov/system/files/documents/2019/12/06/00-20-h130-iv-g-final-12.pdf https://www.nist.gov/system/files/documents/2019/12/06/00-20... A metering devices that dispenses electrical power is no different. https://www.nist.gov/pml/weights-and-measures/legal-metrology-devices/electric-vehicle-fueling-and-submetering https://www.nist.gov/pml/weights-and-measures/legal-metrolog...
  - golemotron 4y ago
    It's an overreach. "A pound is 16 ounces" is not the same as "cakes shall only be 5 ounces," i.e., a standard of measure does not extend to regulation of what is measured and what measures are permitted. An originalist court could fix this.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      That analogy does not hold up. A fuel dispenser is a metering device. The scale at your grocery store that measures the weight of the cake is, likewise, an NTEP scale: https://www.nist.gov/programs-projects/national-type-evaluation-program-ntep https://www.nist.gov/programs-projects/national-type-evaluat... These are very fundamental consumer protection regulations that have been solidly cemented in western civilization for many centuries now. >not extend to regulation of [...] what measures are permitted. That was exactly the point of that clause. The colonies all had their own system of measurement and it was a mess trying to do business. Now, congress did very little about it, but the founders intentionally reserved the right for them to fix that problem.
      - golemotron 4y ago
        The problem with your formulation is that there is no limiting principle. Perversely, the government could rule that a pregnant person is a metering device for gestation and establish standards.
        kube-system 4y ago
        No, a pregnancy does not meter any commercial exchange of goods.
  - nybble41 4y ago
    Ensuring accurate metering in the context of commerce is within the scope of "To … fix the Standard of Weights and Measures". The specific form of the nozzle clearly is not, but they might justify it on the basis of some other enumerated power—the interstate commerce clause is frequently (ab)used for this sort of thing. Nothing technically requires every regulation produced by the NIST Weights and Measures division to be grounded exclusively in the Weights and Measures clause, though one could be forgiven for making that assumption. As dpratt remarked earlier[0], any interpretation which would deem nozzle size—or the specific form of an electrical connector—to be covered by the Weights and Measures clause of the Constitution would effectively cede unlimited power to the federal government. What couldn't they regulate under such broad rules? [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31654558 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31654558
- Dylan16807 4y ago
  > on par with classifying bumblebees as fish So you're saying it's quite reasonable when you look at what actually happened? The law defined a handful of categories. "fish" is actually "fish and miscellaneous". Invertebrates are explicitly part of that miscellaneous.
- astrange 4y ago
  > par with classifying bumblebees as fish Society claiming this is wrong and being correct is exactly balanced by society claiming whales aren't fish and being incorrect. (Whales are fish because they're descendants of fish and are more closely related to salmon than sharks are. The same goes for you. You're also a fish.)
dpratt 4y ago
If by “strict reading” you mean “any reading at all”, I would agree. I’m not sure how the legal power to say “the unit of mass called the ‘gram’ shall be defined as the mass of a cube of pure water, one centimeter on each side” allows you to say “anybody that manufactures a phone must include the following physical and logical features.” If you go off that definition, you’re basically ceding pretty much unlimited power to the government.
- kube-system 4y ago
  For phones, you’re right. For cars, we have public metering devices that measure units of stuff and charge money. This makes it fall into the category of metering devices used in trade. And we do regulate those almost universally. You can’t just put a different shape nozzle on a gas pump, for instance.
larryett 4y ago
If only we had mandated VGA 20 years ago I wouldn't have to stress over all these different connections under my monitor. You can't possibly believe what you typed.

arlort 4y ago

IIRC it doesn't even exclude funny cables as long as the option remains to use an USB-C cable too So if you really want I believe you could issue a double port Clunky for smartphones maybe, but should be trivial for larger devices

mrtksn 4y ago
That's also my understanding. So Macbook Air 2022 with MagSafe charging will be completely legal as long as the USB-C can be used for charging.
- pooper 4y ago
  That is good because I think as late as three years ago there was still at least one "laptop" (possibly more, only one I have heard of) which were heavy desktop replacement that required two power bricks during some gaming.
  - arlort 4y ago
    For that kind of power draw I think the proposal doesn't mandate anything anyway

jeroenhd 4y ago

In the USA all modern electric cars also use the normal standard, except for Tesla. There were a few early offshoots and Tesla had good reason to come up with their own connector initially (no other plug could transfer that much power!) but these days everything has been pretty much consolidated. For charging your car at Tesla chargers that haven't been upgraded to the standard yet there are adaptors available from Tesla plugs to standard fast charging plugs. Older cars may need their weird custom connections but everything else has been pretty much been standardised. I don't know how much the EU decision has affected this, but it's not an EU exclusive feat.

mrtksn 4y ago
There's this thing called Brussels effect where manufacturers pick to default to EU requirements instead of having different supply chains unless they absolutely have to. EU don't like the idea of manufacturers locking down their users through different standards. EU is a densely populated place with limited natural resources and free space, therefore cables piling up or 10 different types of charging stations are problems that EU cannot afford. EU trash being shipped to poorer countries is already a serious problem for example. Good to hear that in the US only Tesla was the outlier and the industry acted responsibly but unless regulated you can't guarantee that it will be like that or stay like that. Businesses love to lock down their users, Tesla chargers are a major selling point for Tesla and from EU perspective having multiple charging networks that cannot be made interoperable without a substantial modifications is a no-no.
- wfhordie 4y ago
  > cannot be made interoperable without a substantial modifications is a no-no. This sentence seems to imply that one cannot charge their non-Tesla car with the Tesla charging network without substantial modifications. What do you mean by substantial modification? It is already possible for non-Tesla cars, in the United States, to charge at Tesla destination chargers with an adapter: https://qccharge.com/collections/jdapter-stub™-tesla-station-adapter/products/jdapter-stub™-80-amp-tesla-to-j1772-adaptor https://qccharge.com/collections/jdapter-stub™-tesla-station... There isn’t anything particular magic about Tesla Superchargers, either. A simple adapter+some API for the app will open it right up. I’m not against standardization, btw.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago

> "No funny cables, why don't you try wireless charging of your liking if USB-C doesn't cut it for you?". it boils down to "as long as the USB-C is provided" anyway electric plugs have been a standard for decades, better options to supply energy have come out, the plugs have stayed the same. I don't understand the FOMO.

mrtksn 4y ago
> it boils down to "as long as the USB-C is provided" Can you provide a source? AFAIK you can have a device without USB-C and only wireless charging.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  it's literally in the first page in so far as they are capable of being recharged via wired charging, shall: so you can have all the funny cables you want, as long as you provide the USB-C plug If there is no wired charging, there is no problem of funny cables. but companies are free to experiment all the kinds of wired charging they want, it's just more convenient to have a standard and they'll comply happily I guess, now that they are forced by the law and can stop competing on stupid stuff like charging cables.
  - dfox 4y ago
    There is a huge question of what exactly “are capable of being recharged via wired charging” means. Does the hidden Lightning connector on Apple Watch that most consumers don't even know is there count?

samatman 4y ago

> Will EU block innovation? It already has. Tesla's connector is nicer (you can call that subjective but it isn't) and the supercharging network in the US is deploying the clunky standard sort of connector as well. If EU legislation were universal, that would preclude any future where the superior connector is licensed and takes over from the crappy designed-by-committee alternative, because Tesla would be forced to stop manufacturing it. Legislators deciding who gets to be VHS and who has to be Betamax is bad, actually.

itsoktocry 4y ago
>Legislators deciding who gets to be VHS and who has to be Betamax is bad, actually Interesting example. Betamax was technologically superior, but lost out due to marginally higher costs. What makes you think Tesla's connector wouldn't suffer the same fate?
malfist 4y ago
How is tesla's connector nicer?
- bin_bash 4y ago
  It’s a lot smaller, locks into the car while charging, and doesn’t have an extra flap you have to open when using DC fast charging.
  - objclxt 4y ago
    > locks into the car while charging The EU plug locks into the car while charging. Not sure why you think it doesn't. There's also no obligation to have an extra flap, my Model 3 does not.
    - thinkindie 4y ago
      I second this. I'm frequently using the volkswagen ID.3 and there is no way to unplug it unless you unlock it from charging station with the card you find it in the car (at least in Berlin).

gumby 4y ago

> Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is what happens if better solutions are found. Didn’t the EU previously mandate micro USB A? I believe Apple included an adapter in the box for all EU SKUs. Edit: it was not compulsory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply

gumby 4y ago

> Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is what happens if better solutions are found. Will EU block innovation? Previously the EU had a (non-compulsory) rule on micro A as the charging standard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply Plus they leave the door open for a wireless alternative.

deleted 4y ago

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seanmcdirmid 4y ago

What if Apple finally comes out with wired mag safe for the iPhone? Does they count as wireless? Or would it be illegal in Europe because a wire was still involved even if the connection was magnetic?

arcticbull 4y ago
How about we wait until Apple comes up with a MagSafe connector for phones they want to use and the big bad regulators won't let them? Tim Cook has his own PR team, haha.
- ericd 4y ago
  Don’t you think this might discourage them from investing the R&D to make something that’ll require a fight to release?
  - arcticbull 4y ago
    Since they've been using Lightning for about 10 years now, I'd say there's other things that are inhibiting their innovation. I suspect it has more to do with third-party accessory manufacturers. Unless you're suggesting that connector innovation requires at least a 10 year iteration cycle?
    - ericd 4y ago
      Yeah, people generally don’t want to have to throw out all that stuff after a short period of time, and after a long period, they’ve got even more money invested in that setup, so if it’s not broken… there’s just not really much of a compelling benefit to change types from the perspective of most normal people, and there are concrete downsides in the form of money sunk into it. Anyway, I like USB-C more, I have to carry them anyway, so it’d eliminate one cable when I travel. We’re as close as I’ve ever seen to having the one cable to rule them all, which is pretty cool.
zitterbewegung 4y ago
USBC can be made to be "MagSafe". When Apple only sold laptops with USB-C ports there were a bunch of MagSafe knockoffs sold for laptops. Although most of the time they would break eventually but it's not impossible. If it just was a special cord as long as you could use a regular USBC cord it seems like it would be compliant but IANAL.

seu 4y ago

> Will EU block innovation? Innovation is overrated. And standardising is not blocking. What we need more urgently than innovation is to stop creating so much waste, extracting so much stuff from the earth, and in general reduce consumption. Standardisation accomplishes at least some of that.

throwaway92394 4y ago
> Innovation is overrated. And standardising is not blocking. Hard disagree? Both lightning and USB C were massive improvements in durability compared to Micro USB - I'd argue lightning is still better in that regard, because there's no thin piece inside the phone that can break (did phone repair, and 99% of the time a "broken" iphone port was just stuck lint). USB C is not universally better then then Micro, namely it has a much larger footprint both on the connector side and the PCB. > Will EU block innovation? So my question is - if there's a new USB standard connector that's smaller, or is inside-out for better durability - is it now prevented from being used?
- treesknees 4y ago
  Granted this isn't the fault of the connector, but USB-C is certainly a mess. My Nintendo Switch uses USB-C charging, but I can't use my MacBook charger for it. There are different cables, ratings, etc. "make everything USB-C" is asking for confusion. As much as I hate having a different cable for every device, at least when I pick up a (Apple-branded) lightning cable, I know it will work correctly for my iPhone.
  - patentatt 4y ago
    Isn't the switch a notorious outlier and oddball with respect to its usb-c implementation though? I think it's more just that Nintendo screwed up one product than the standard is bad.
    - treesknees 4y ago
      It's certainly the most popular example of poor implementation. But one could argue that USB-C isn't even implemented and they just used the connector/form factor for their cable. I recall the RPI4 also having issues early on with power over USB-C. But that's precisely my problem with this - if we're forcing every device to merely adopt a USB-C port, that does nothing to ensure they're actually using USB-C specifications or interoperable. Game System X and Phone Y may only work with USB-C cables/chargers X and Y, which satisfy the requirement without fixing the compatibility problem.

lynguist 4y ago

Look, we have the headphone jack (6.35mm) stemming from 1877, and its miniature form (3.5mm) from 1960. It’s ok to let USB-C live for another 60-100 years.

mmis1000 4y ago
It will probably last for very long consider 24 wire of type c is a lot compares to 4 of 3.5mm jack. And it can actually be repurposed by changing the protocol (software) ? Probably until someday that 24 physical wire isn't enough for a phone. (but the iPhone don't even use the usb3 yet, why did it even need these bandwidth?)
CardenB 4y ago
This is a flawed comparison because the use cases for the former examples are very limited in comparison to USB C which is arguably evolving rapidly still. You could imagine if we had formed such a standard around USB A in the 90s and how it might have blocked the already high friction establishment of USB C and thunderbolt 3 standards. USB C currently seems more mature than USB A, so I can see where things ar ea bit subjective here, but it's not really possible to see where unrestricted development would have put us. I think I would have been more comfortable with simply banning lightning and micro USB than restricting to only USB C.
- bonzini 4y ago
  The first version of the EU regulation suggested USB micro. There's a reason why it took ten years to go from suggestion to requirement.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  This regulation is about charging - so power, not data / thunderbolt. And when it comes to charging USB C can delvier 100W, which is enough for any small gadget, phone, etc.
  - Dylan16807 4y ago
    They upgraded it to 240W.

izzydata 4y ago

It would be nice if we could limit new standards to once every 5-10 years. At which time people can submit new ideas for standardization approval and then the best one gets picked and everyone is required to switch. Backwards compatibility would probably score a lot of points.

qwerty456127 4y ago

> Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is what happens if better solutions are found. Will EU block innovation? The EU has no problem with updating to improved standards. First there was USB-Mini-B, then USB-Micro-B, now USB-C. I would expect some different connector to replace it in a about a decade and 100% wireless in two decades roughly.

ranguna 4y ago
USB-C only came to light because of the out of standard Intel's lightning cable. Same thing for x86 vs arm, you can't really block one in favour of the other.
rektide 4y ago
Mini-B (2000) had serious reliability problems, and would often damage the device rather than the cable. Micro-B (2007) was a pretty smart & necessary response. USB-C (2014) elegantly encompassed the additional high-speed data-connectivity that the hideous huge SuperSpeed USB Micro-B (2008) tacked on, & added significant future-proofing/adaptability (alt-modes). I have a hard time imagining much advantage beyond USB-C. It's pretty mechanically fit & reliable, it has huge bandwidth (I think DisplayPort alt-modes can do 80Gbps?), it can transmit 240W in Extended Power Range variants. Someday perhaps. But I also think this might be here to stay for a long long time.
- qwerty456127 4y ago
  I would bet the industry will invent something to replace it anyway, even if there's no good reason for the change. Or maybe there will be some fundamental leap making 80 Gbps as irrelevant as 9600 bps are today.
  - rektide 4y ago
    Please Intel... I still want it: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/03/intel-thunderbolt-optical-cabling-coming-this-year/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/03/intel-thunderbolt-op... Side note, there's some really really cheap fiber optic DisplayPort cables out there. They work, they're whatever length you want, mine were ~$0.60/foot. My monitors are 4k60 & 2k170; all resolutions run great. I feel like we're not too far off from fiber maybe happening for real.

mmis1000 4y ago

> Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is what happens if better solutions are found. Will EU block innovation? Usb typec wire from 65A(non e-marked wire) to 240A(the latest standardized e-marked wire) uses literally the same plug. Typec is the header but not the protocol. Even China phone vendor's proprietary high speed charging protocol use typec wire. And Intel's tb4 wire also use a type c wire. (the bandwidth of tb4 is definitely overkill for every phone ever made on the world for now) Force use of typec header and baseline charging protocol prevent innovation is just bs consider this didn't even prevent apple from making a MFA e-marked typec cable.(Or they don't want this to pass because they actually want to do this again?)

Dylan16807 4y ago
> the bandwidth of tb4 is definitely overkill for every phone ever made on the world for now That depends on what you're doing with it. It would not be very strange to power a VR headset with a phone, which could easily get into that bandwidth range.
- kanetw 4y ago
  I'm considering TBT3/4 for our VR headset's tethered mode. It's a bit of a pain to implement, but the data rate is worth it. For reference, we need 2-4 lanes of DP HBR3 (depending on compression) + PCIe Gen3x4 for the camera passthrough. TBT3/4 could do it over a single cable. Feeds into the nightmare that is implementing that entire ecosystem though...

vel0city 4y ago

The tech for wireless charging is not really that new and isn't really changing a large amount. My Nokia 920 uses the same charging standard as the latest iPhones. iPhones can charge on the old charger I have, the 920 can charge on an iPhone charger. That phone came out a decade ago.

Vladimof 4y ago

> Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is what happens if better solutions are found. Will EU block innovation? no... we also had the Micro USB standard because of Europe...

smaryjerry 4y ago

Standards are a good thing but I’m not sure that we have reached this point where USB-C is functionally the best. If we could completely eliminate on all other types of connectors on not just phones but computers then I would say it’s time to standardize. Unfortunately on my computer if I want a 4K resolution and frame rate that is way 300 hz then is it even possible that can be done over a USB-C connector? Hopefully some expert can chime in but display port or hdmi 2.1+ or multiple of those cables is what is used typically, and if USB-c worked perfectly why isn’t that already replacing every single port on a computer? Phones will eventually be as fast or faster than the current computers, so why implement a limitation when it feels like phones are still at the baby steps in phone evolution? That is just data transfer and I’m no expert but I’m not certain either than charging has reached it’s final form either. Am I wrong, is the USB-c connector capable of infinite data transfer rate as long as your cable is good enough?

ciupicri 4y ago

Speaking of cars and standardization, I'm still waiting for the European Union to put the steering wheel on the left side of the car and while we're at it, make it mandatory to drive on the right side of the road.

lrem 4y ago
Demographics seems to suggest that the prospect of unification is not unrealistic within our lifetimes.
umeshunni 4y ago
In another generation, cars will be self driving and this will just be a code change.
maest 4y ago
Is your point that since there exist a standard which occurred without government intervention, then the government should never intervene to create any standards?
- ciupicri 4y ago
  No, the point is the UE can't standardize even this "simple" thing.