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> Context: for ages, OEMs (the factory) have had a belief that Americans will not wait to buy a car. On the contrary, we recently added a 3rd car, and it ended

> Context: for ages, OEMs (the factory) have had a belief that Americans will not wait to buy a car. On the contrary, we recently added a 3rd car, and it ended up being a $4000 used Toyota Camry. My first choice would have been a Corolla or civic but none were available at a reasonable price, condition and mileage. Due to the well known rise in used car prices. It's in good enough condition and meets all the requirements for something that's comfortable, has cruise control and working AC, wasn't in bad shape, and can be repaired and maintained economically. Now I'm optimizing for dollars per km driven and although I could easily afford to take out a car loan for a new Model 3, or similar, I have absolutely no intention of doing so. At the purchase price of this car and its highway mpg, and driving around 14,000 km per year, even at the current fuel prices (or if fuel goes to $6.85 USD a gallon) there is no way that its $/km is going to be anywhere near as high as the TCO of buying a new Prius or Ioniq nevermind a fully electric car. I have simply opted out entirely from the concept of buying a dealership new car or late-model car and will continue to spend money on things that are reasonably adequate, and my financial outlay and overall level of stress are considerably lessened. No more worrying about if it collects a rock chip in its front plastic bumper, or a ding in a parking lot, no more paying comprehensive insurance, no more dealership haggling and waiting lists, no more inventory problems.

d110af5ccf 4y ago
> no more paying comprehensive insurance Assuming you can afford to replace it on your own if you need to, this one really adds up.
- CameronNemo 4y ago
  When I removed comprehensive coverage, the lady from the insurance company audibly said "wow" before telling me my new yearly rate. It dropped quite a bit. Over 50% decrease IIRC.
  - batiudrami 4y ago
    In Australia I changed from comprehensive to third party property damage, fire and theft and my rate changed from $950 to $240/y. For a $5000 vehicle! (NB: first and third party medical insurance are covered by rego and Medicare).
- tempestn 4y ago
  More generally, it usually doesn't make sense to have insurance for anything where you could comfortably afford to pay for the bad thing out of pocket if it happened. For me that means 3rd party liability coverage, yes; comprehensive coverage, no.
- ChrisRR 4y ago
  As a brit where at least 3rd party insurance is a legal requirement,I consider that everyone should be fully comp. It's not just your car you're damaging, it's likely another car and potentially legal fees and loss of earnings. Even if insurance went optional I'd still go fully comp, as the cost of a new car is not what I need if I'm already financially struggling due to injury
  - bin_bash 4y ago
    That’s liability insurance, not comprehensive. In the US you either have to have liability insurance or be very wealthy. Bill Gates has no need for insurance after all.
  - pbourke 4y ago
    In the US, auto insurance policies are split into 3 buckets: collision, comprehensive and liability. Comprehensive kicks in for events which are “not collisions,” so tree falling on the car, theft, etc. You are required to have liability and collision coverage in most states, but comprehensive is optional. People often drop it from their policies to save on the premium. I have tried doing that on one of our vehicles over the years but have barely realized any savings so I’ve ended up keeping it on the policy. Seems like others have fared better.
    - rhino369 4y ago
      No state requires collision. If you've got a rust bucket, no reason to cover your own car.
      - pbourke 4y ago
        Oh, good point
KerrAvon 4y ago
I applaud you for not taking the bait on the Model 3, which is overrated, but I cannot fathom purchasing an appliance car like a Camry. You can’t possibly enjoy driving it. Why not at least a Honda?
- cwal37 4y ago
  Perhaps because nearly all car trips are those in which they are mostly acting as an appliance as central to (presuming here) American life as AC is in most of the country. Personally, I’ve never driven a Camry and thought, “this is awful”, but rather “this is totally fine and wow, great mileage!” In a similar vein, its status as an abundant vehicle with many parts out there and being generally reliable are all similar and useful things I’d consider before buying a new washing machine or whatever.
  - sharkweek 4y ago
    My first car, in the early 00s mind you, was a 1989 Camry Wagon and boy did I sure love that thing. Great utilitarian car that could fit friends, got great gas mileage, and basically required no upkeep. I now drive a 2000 4Runner that has actually gone up in value from when I bought it 12ish years ago. I’ve had two people in the last two years drive by randomly and ask if I was selling. One of my all-time favorite Onion headlines: Toyota Recalls 1993 Camry Due To Fact That Owners Really Should Have Bought Something New By Now https://www.theonion.com/toyota-recalls-1993-camry-due-to-fact-that-owners-reall-1819577805/amp https://www.theonion.com/toyota-recalls-1993-camry-due-to-fa...
  - cormacrelf 4y ago
    They're even reliable in the way they break down. Parts are cheap worldwide, every mechanic ever can work with them, and the service life of components seems to be staggered such that you only get a couple of issues a year even on a 20 year old model like mine. If you think all is lost at 500,000km, just buy a new engine for like $1000 and sail away in your little Ship of Theseus that refuses to die. The purchase price is so low and the maintenance so consistent it's like you're renting it. If you are struggling to build your self-worth through a car or think you need to spend $50k to get that, try fixing an old Camry yourself for dirt cheap, and then see how you feel. No need to fight for right-to-repair laws either, just buy a part anywhere and clean or replace it according to the manual, which is just a 1000 page PDF on the internet of every possible repair. (Although my next car will be electric, because of climate change. Sorry Camry.)
alliao 4y ago
I have a 2000 BMW 318ti beater car, the clear coat is peeling but mechanically fantastic. The crankshaft sensor was causing random misfires which I replaced. Otherwise all stock, it's fantastic and freeing. I can floor it and it doesn't go anywhere. upkeep is cheap, oil change when it asks me to. light compact car i've only done brakes once 6yrs ago and it looks new still... the only downside are the plastic parts which sometimes let water in. Those I'm replacing.
- dmurray 4y ago
  > I can floor it and it doesn't go anywhere. This is a difficult sentence to parse. Shouldn't you want the opposite from a car?
  - TheSpiceIsLife 4y ago
    High powered vehicles have a tendency to cause sudden acceleration. Sudden acceleration is a contributing factor in many vehicle crashes.
    - s8s8discourse 4y ago
      High powered vehicles don't have a tendency to cause anything. Driver input causes sudden acceleration. Having access to more power is not an inherently dangerous thing. Poor driving ability is a dangerous thing - though I agree that more power can compound that danger. I drive a 480bhp 1800kg car. It takes active involvement from me in multiple steps to "take off" or 'suddenly' accelerate, and when it does so, the whole car is configured to _increase_ its stability as its speed increases. That said, if I were to aggressively accelerate when the road conditions are in excess of what the stability aids (and my fallible human skillset) can counter - which from experience is a high bar for modern DSC (oil, ice) - then I would crash and power would be a contributory factor. But from experience I can say that a small front wheel drive car will have 'let go' far sooner under those same conditions. High-powered cars, by virtue of their expense, tend to have more comprehensive and capable driver assistance features both tech and mech (you're not going to find a limited slip differential on a budget super mini car) Under-powered cars have trouble effectively matching carriageway and motorway speed in the short slip roads that are common in the UK. A 1 litre, >80bhp car is fine for city/town and village driving. It is not an appropriate vehicle for motorway or NSL carriageway driving. Anything that has no ability to out-accelerate a HGV maintaining cruise speed to join a motorway has no business being on the motorway.
argonaut 4y ago
I'm all for frugality, but with a newer car you're getting vastly improved crash safety. Over the years crash safety ratings have gotten tougher and tougher. You can browse the IIHS crash rating history for the Camry (or any other car) and you can often observe that when the IIHS introduces a new test, cars often perform poorly on it (high likelihood of injury) initially, but get better later on. https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/Toyota/camry-4-door-sedan/ https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/Toyota/camry-4-door-sed.... This is it's own piece of mind.
- brailsafe 4y ago
  Ya but, for 25-40k!? Newer than 92 sure, but no need for new
- flyinglizard 4y ago
  And also active safety driver aids which prevent accidents in the first place. If you can afford a new car, by all means you should.
  - MisterTea 4y ago
    Most of the safety driver aids seem to paper over incompetency and the fact that people can't put their phones down while operating a deadly vehicle. Been driving for 20+ years and no accidents. I also mainly drive older vehicles without any such tech save for ABS. Stay focused on the task at hand and be responsible. If you cant do that, then surrender your drivers license and use an alternative transportation method.
    - bluGill 4y ago
      > Been driving for 20+ years and no accidents That is luck not skill. Humans are not good drives and never can be. > Stay focused on the task at hand and be responsible. That helps. It would help some more if you would also get updated training - safety engineers have discovered a lot of things over the years that few people know.
causi 4y ago
Indeed. I've been doing similar research myself and was surprised at how highway driving can disadvantage EVs. They'll never be as expensive per mile as an ICE vehicle but I found the fact I spend most of my commute at 80mph significantly decreased the savings.
- empyrrhicist 4y ago
  I mean, driving at 80 vs 70 will also vastly decrease your ICE mileage, it's just less noticeable until you go to fill up.
  - causi 4y ago
    I mean, driving at 80 vs 70 will also vastly decrease your ICE mileage It definitely increases the drag, but after spending a week driving at 70 the difference in mileage was almost unnoticeable. It helps that I have a small, aerodynamic car that's geared high instead of a truck or blocky SUV.
    - empyrrhicist 4y ago
      I find that very hard to believe, given that drag increases with the third power of velocity. By almost unnoticeable do you mean that you didn't notice it, or did you robustly measure and compare?
      - causi 4y ago
        It's entirely possible, even likely, the lack of difference is due to age-related efficiency losses at lower speeds rather than not losing efficiency between 70 and 80. There's also the fact I'm running AC on max in very hot weather, which maximizes the loss due to AC and increases the amount I save by shortening the trip and thus reducing the amount of time the AC is running. My overall trip efficiency maxing out at 70 was 31mpg, and 80 was 27.9mpg.
    - danans 4y ago
      > after spending a week driving at 70 the difference in mileage was almost unnoticeable. In dollars, the additional amount you pay to drive an ICE faster is considerable: https://afdc.energy.gov/conserve/behavior_techniques.html#:~:text=While%20vehicles%20reach%20optimal%20fuel,gas%20at%20%242.63%20per%20gallon https://afdc.energy.gov/conserve/behavior_techniques.html#:~...). "For light-duty vehicles, for example, every 5 mph you drive over 50 mph is like paying $0.18 more per gallon of gas (based on the price of gas at $2.63 per gallon)." Even that is a simplification. Air resistance increases exponentially with speed, so the jump in resistance (reduction in efficiency) is much greater from 70-80 than from 50-60. Also, gas is a lot more expensive now, so the additional $0.18/gal could easily be doubled or tripled at today's prices depending on where you live. > It helps that I have a small, aerodynamic car that's geared high instead of a truck or blocky SUV. According to consumer reports, even a very gas miserly Toyota Yaris loses 4mpg going from 65-75mph. It's probably double the efficiency loss if you go to 80mph. Can't cheat physics. https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2009/09/tested-speed-vs-fuel-economy/index.htm https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2009/09/tested-spee...
ChrisRR 4y ago
Remember, a single data point does not indicate a trend
jdhzzz 4y ago
Agreed. I'm firmly in the boat of "expensive things own you" so I avoid owning them. I do try to take care of what I have but don't obsess over things that can and do happen. That said. I did get rid of a perfectly good 2002 Camry to buy a Mustang Mach e about 14 months ago. It was pure indulgence and I'm still smitten. I try to take care of it, but don't park across 2 spaces an extra 200 meters away while at the grocery.

d110af5ccf 4y ago

> no more paying comprehensive insurance Assuming you can afford to replace it on your own if you need to, this one really adds up.

CameronNemo 4y ago
When I removed comprehensive coverage, the lady from the insurance company audibly said "wow" before telling me my new yearly rate. It dropped quite a bit. Over 50% decrease IIRC.
- batiudrami 4y ago
  In Australia I changed from comprehensive to third party property damage, fire and theft and my rate changed from $950 to $240/y. For a $5000 vehicle! (NB: first and third party medical insurance are covered by rego and Medicare).
tempestn 4y ago
More generally, it usually doesn't make sense to have insurance for anything where you could comfortably afford to pay for the bad thing out of pocket if it happened. For me that means 3rd party liability coverage, yes; comprehensive coverage, no.
ChrisRR 4y ago
As a brit where at least 3rd party insurance is a legal requirement,I consider that everyone should be fully comp. It's not just your car you're damaging, it's likely another car and potentially legal fees and loss of earnings. Even if insurance went optional I'd still go fully comp, as the cost of a new car is not what I need if I'm already financially struggling due to injury
- bin_bash 4y ago
  That’s liability insurance, not comprehensive. In the US you either have to have liability insurance or be very wealthy. Bill Gates has no need for insurance after all.
- pbourke 4y ago
  In the US, auto insurance policies are split into 3 buckets: collision, comprehensive and liability. Comprehensive kicks in for events which are “not collisions,” so tree falling on the car, theft, etc. You are required to have liability and collision coverage in most states, but comprehensive is optional. People often drop it from their policies to save on the premium. I have tried doing that on one of our vehicles over the years but have barely realized any savings so I’ve ended up keeping it on the policy. Seems like others have fared better.
  - rhino369 4y ago
    No state requires collision. If you've got a rust bucket, no reason to cover your own car.
    - pbourke 4y ago
      Oh, good point

KerrAvon 4y ago

I applaud you for not taking the bait on the Model 3, which is overrated, but I cannot fathom purchasing an appliance car like a Camry. You can’t possibly enjoy driving it. Why not at least a Honda?

cwal37 4y ago
Perhaps because nearly all car trips are those in which they are mostly acting as an appliance as central to (presuming here) American life as AC is in most of the country. Personally, I’ve never driven a Camry and thought, “this is awful”, but rather “this is totally fine and wow, great mileage!” In a similar vein, its status as an abundant vehicle with many parts out there and being generally reliable are all similar and useful things I’d consider before buying a new washing machine or whatever.
- sharkweek 4y ago
  My first car, in the early 00s mind you, was a 1989 Camry Wagon and boy did I sure love that thing. Great utilitarian car that could fit friends, got great gas mileage, and basically required no upkeep. I now drive a 2000 4Runner that has actually gone up in value from when I bought it 12ish years ago. I’ve had two people in the last two years drive by randomly and ask if I was selling. One of my all-time favorite Onion headlines: Toyota Recalls 1993 Camry Due To Fact That Owners Really Should Have Bought Something New By Now https://www.theonion.com/toyota-recalls-1993-camry-due-to-fact-that-owners-reall-1819577805/amp https://www.theonion.com/toyota-recalls-1993-camry-due-to-fa...
- cormacrelf 4y ago
  They're even reliable in the way they break down. Parts are cheap worldwide, every mechanic ever can work with them, and the service life of components seems to be staggered such that you only get a couple of issues a year even on a 20 year old model like mine. If you think all is lost at 500,000km, just buy a new engine for like $1000 and sail away in your little Ship of Theseus that refuses to die. The purchase price is so low and the maintenance so consistent it's like you're renting it. If you are struggling to build your self-worth through a car or think you need to spend $50k to get that, try fixing an old Camry yourself for dirt cheap, and then see how you feel. No need to fight for right-to-repair laws either, just buy a part anywhere and clean or replace it according to the manual, which is just a 1000 page PDF on the internet of every possible repair. (Although my next car will be electric, because of climate change. Sorry Camry.)

alliao 4y ago

I have a 2000 BMW 318ti beater car, the clear coat is peeling but mechanically fantastic. The crankshaft sensor was causing random misfires which I replaced. Otherwise all stock, it's fantastic and freeing. I can floor it and it doesn't go anywhere. upkeep is cheap, oil change when it asks me to. light compact car i've only done brakes once 6yrs ago and it looks new still... the only downside are the plastic parts which sometimes let water in. Those I'm replacing.

dmurray 4y ago
> I can floor it and it doesn't go anywhere. This is a difficult sentence to parse. Shouldn't you want the opposite from a car?
- TheSpiceIsLife 4y ago
  High powered vehicles have a tendency to cause sudden acceleration. Sudden acceleration is a contributing factor in many vehicle crashes.
  - s8s8discourse 4y ago
    High powered vehicles don't have a tendency to cause anything. Driver input causes sudden acceleration. Having access to more power is not an inherently dangerous thing. Poor driving ability is a dangerous thing - though I agree that more power can compound that danger. I drive a 480bhp 1800kg car. It takes active involvement from me in multiple steps to "take off" or 'suddenly' accelerate, and when it does so, the whole car is configured to _increase_ its stability as its speed increases. That said, if I were to aggressively accelerate when the road conditions are in excess of what the stability aids (and my fallible human skillset) can counter - which from experience is a high bar for modern DSC (oil, ice) - then I would crash and power would be a contributory factor. But from experience I can say that a small front wheel drive car will have 'let go' far sooner under those same conditions. High-powered cars, by virtue of their expense, tend to have more comprehensive and capable driver assistance features both tech and mech (you're not going to find a limited slip differential on a budget super mini car) Under-powered cars have trouble effectively matching carriageway and motorway speed in the short slip roads that are common in the UK. A 1 litre, >80bhp car is fine for city/town and village driving. It is not an appropriate vehicle for motorway or NSL carriageway driving. Anything that has no ability to out-accelerate a HGV maintaining cruise speed to join a motorway has no business being on the motorway.

argonaut 4y ago

I'm all for frugality, but with a newer car you're getting vastly improved crash safety. Over the years crash safety ratings have gotten tougher and tougher. You can browse the IIHS crash rating history for the Camry (or any other car) and you can often observe that when the IIHS introduces a new test, cars often perform poorly on it (high likelihood of injury) initially, but get better later on. https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/Toyota/camry-4-door-sedan/ https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/Toyota/camry-4-door-sed.... This is it's own piece of mind.

brailsafe 4y ago
Ya but, for 25-40k!? Newer than 92 sure, but no need for new
flyinglizard 4y ago
And also active safety driver aids which prevent accidents in the first place. If you can afford a new car, by all means you should.
- MisterTea 4y ago
  Most of the safety driver aids seem to paper over incompetency and the fact that people can't put their phones down while operating a deadly vehicle. Been driving for 20+ years and no accidents. I also mainly drive older vehicles without any such tech save for ABS. Stay focused on the task at hand and be responsible. If you cant do that, then surrender your drivers license and use an alternative transportation method.
  - bluGill 4y ago
    > Been driving for 20+ years and no accidents That is luck not skill. Humans are not good drives and never can be. > Stay focused on the task at hand and be responsible. That helps. It would help some more if you would also get updated training - safety engineers have discovered a lot of things over the years that few people know.

causi 4y ago

Indeed. I've been doing similar research myself and was surprised at how highway driving can disadvantage EVs. They'll never be as expensive per mile as an ICE vehicle but I found the fact I spend most of my commute at 80mph significantly decreased the savings.

empyrrhicist 4y ago
I mean, driving at 80 vs 70 will also vastly decrease your ICE mileage, it's just less noticeable until you go to fill up.
- causi 4y ago
  I mean, driving at 80 vs 70 will also vastly decrease your ICE mileage It definitely increases the drag, but after spending a week driving at 70 the difference in mileage was almost unnoticeable. It helps that I have a small, aerodynamic car that's geared high instead of a truck or blocky SUV.
  - empyrrhicist 4y ago
    I find that very hard to believe, given that drag increases with the third power of velocity. By almost unnoticeable do you mean that you didn't notice it, or did you robustly measure and compare?
    - causi 4y ago
      It's entirely possible, even likely, the lack of difference is due to age-related efficiency losses at lower speeds rather than not losing efficiency between 70 and 80. There's also the fact I'm running AC on max in very hot weather, which maximizes the loss due to AC and increases the amount I save by shortening the trip and thus reducing the amount of time the AC is running. My overall trip efficiency maxing out at 70 was 31mpg, and 80 was 27.9mpg.
  - danans 4y ago
    > after spending a week driving at 70 the difference in mileage was almost unnoticeable. In dollars, the additional amount you pay to drive an ICE faster is considerable: https://afdc.energy.gov/conserve/behavior_techniques.html#:~:text=While%20vehicles%20reach%20optimal%20fuel,gas%20at%20%242.63%20per%20gallon https://afdc.energy.gov/conserve/behavior_techniques.html#:~...). "For light-duty vehicles, for example, every 5 mph you drive over 50 mph is like paying $0.18 more per gallon of gas (based on the price of gas at $2.63 per gallon)." Even that is a simplification. Air resistance increases exponentially with speed, so the jump in resistance (reduction in efficiency) is much greater from 70-80 than from 50-60. Also, gas is a lot more expensive now, so the additional $0.18/gal could easily be doubled or tripled at today's prices depending on where you live. > It helps that I have a small, aerodynamic car that's geared high instead of a truck or blocky SUV. According to consumer reports, even a very gas miserly Toyota Yaris loses 4mpg going from 65-75mph. It's probably double the efficiency loss if you go to 80mph. Can't cheat physics. https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2009/09/tested-speed-vs-fuel-economy/index.htm https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2009/09/tested-spee...

ChrisRR 4y ago

Remember, a single data point does not indicate a trend

jdhzzz 4y ago

Agreed. I'm firmly in the boat of "expensive things own you" so I avoid owning them. I do try to take care of what I have but don't obsess over things that can and do happen. That said. I did get rid of a perfectly good 2002 Camry to buy a Mustang Mach e about 14 months ago. It was pure indulgence and I'm still smitten. I try to take care of it, but don't park across 2 spaces an extra 200 meters away while at the grocery.