4 ms·

> "They're just told that the prisons they think are "computing" (Windows/Apple/Android) are the natural state of things." Step 1, use diminutive gatekeeping s

> "They're just told that the prisons they think are "computing" (Windows/Apple/Android) are the natural state of things." Step 1, use diminutive gatekeeping scare quotes to imply that Windows and Apple users are not doing /real/ computing. Step 2, use flamebait language where a house you got without paying is "freedom" but a listed building you bought from someone else is "a prison". Step 3, make up some fantasy about people being told "the natural state of things". Step 4, make sure to look down on average people with their lacking awareness, compared to you, an intellectual with your posturing understanding of philosophical underpinnings. > "often demeaned, or neglected, even here on HN" "I'm the one being demeaned, you inferior clueless simpletons!"

skrtskrt 4y ago
A free house that I can use forever without restrictions sure sounds a lot more like freedom than buying a house with significant restrictions on how I can use it.
- jodrellblank 4y ago
  The more important point in the analogy is that people who buy houses aren't in prison. The other important point is that a house free house forever without restrictions doesn't exist - you're still beholden to zoning laws, fire safety laws, environmental regulations, you couldn't use the house as a meth lab or fly kites from it into restricted airspace, or broadcast from it into restricted radio bands, or a thousand other things. And for your own self-interest you want to keep it clear of insects, keep the roof waterproof, keep the floors from collapsing, etc. Then it becomes a lot clearer that there are tradeoffs around amount of effort needed, amount of money spent, amounts of freedoms, with many reasonable choices for different people and use-cases, rather than the implied binary choice.
- teddyh 4y ago
  Most people seem to know that HOAs are troublesome and should be avoided, though.
  - sigstoat 4y ago
    HOA homes seem to sell fine. average people don’t give a shit about this sort of thing.
    - throw10920 4y ago
      No, almost every single person (8-10?) that I've talked to about buying a house in the past year mentioned HOAs, and almost exclusively negatively, too.
      - sigstoat 4y ago
        > every single person (8-10?) ...wow. and yet, despite that, they're still selling.
        skinnymuch 4y ago
        How does that mean people don’t give a shit?
smoldesu 4y ago
1. Well, this is the root of the conversation around free software, especially in the modern age. I think many people would argue that Windows/Apple/Android users are indeed computing, but they're doing so on the behalf of Microsoft/Apple/Google. When those companies back up your files to their first-party cloud systems, that's not your computation anymore. They have your data and can ostensibly do whatever they want with it. There may be quibbling to be had on this topic, but I think the original point still stands in context. 2. I wouldn't call it a prison, but it would be pretty disappointing to move into a listed building where the thermostat was locked behind an acrylic case. Simply put, it sucks when you pay for something and can't run arbitrary software on the hardware you own. I don't really think most people would disagree here: having options is better than having none. 3. Is it really a fantasy? I doubt the average PC owner even knows they have options other than Windows, much less free ones. Maybe this is the HN US-centric mindset taking over again, but nobody in America really knows or cares about this stuff, for better and worse. 4. Pretty much all of your refutations so far haven't actually debated their core point, so I don't think it's fair to start throwing stones. Given the average vitriol of HN, I would say that many different people are "often demeaned, or neglected, even here on HN", be it Free Software advocates or proud Macbook owners. It doesn't make them any more or less credible, but their original point still stands: people on this website love to quibble about how atrocious OSS is when compared to $GLORIOUS_SAAS, despite the fact that the iPhone/Windows/Android device they're writing on is more OSS than it is proprietary. Whether it's Apple, Microsoft or Google, none of them deserve to inherit the future of computing. It's not a radical opinion, and I'd agree with the parent comment that it's pretty often overlooked on a forum about startup culture and business.
jrm4 4y ago
I too don't like the idea of being "demeaning" and whatnot, but this is all very simple. Home Depot sells you a hammer, and also in some way (even in a legally enforceable way) tries to suggest you can only build chairs with it. Anyone, ANYONE, who agrees that you're somehow wrong when you use it to build a table is a shill, a sucker, or an idiot. Full stop.
- captainbland 4y ago
  Well clearly you should just sign up to their hammer cloud pro service and then you'll get your chair hammer and even some more niche hammers like ones for constructing bird feeders and knocking bits of sheet metal into place. When you pay your monthly fee, someone will come around to your house with this variety of hammers for different tasks and when you stop paying your monthly fee a different person may come around with just one hammer.
- jodrellblank 4y ago
  You want to build a chair. Home depot sells you a hammer which you can use to build chairs. Someone runs up to you in the car park and calls you and tells you that you are using toy tools and you have no real awareness of the world, and if only you give up a couple of weekends on some blacksmithing and woodworking you can make your own tools and build anything, what do you think? You say you want to build a chair and this hammer is ready-made and convenient, and they tell you that you only think buying hammers is the natural state of things because you were told that. You try to walk away. They get in front of you and say that you don't understand the intellectual and philosophical underpinnings of tools! You step to the side and push past, they call after you that you are in prison and don't even know it! You get home and make a chair. It's a nice chair. You sit in it while telling the story about the crazy person you met earlier. > "Anyone, ANYONE, who agrees that you're somehow wrong when you use it to build a table is a shill, a sucker, or an idiot. Full stop." You buy arsenic, you can't put it in people's food. You buy a camera, you can't use it to sneakily record people using the toilet even in your own home. You buy a recorder, you can't use it to quietly record phonecalls in many states. You rent a film to watch at home, you can't show it to a large audience for profit. You buy a radio transmitter, you can't modify it to be more powerful or use different frequencies. You can't decorate your car to look like a police car, put a midnight klaxon on your house or an unsightly chimney overshadowing the neighbourhood. You can't lease a car and disassemble it to find out how it works. There are restrictions on all kinds of things in everyday life for all kinds of reasons. And you don't get a free pass to do any of these things with a computer just because you identify as a computer geek. The rhetoric that people who are agreeable or disinterested, must be "shill, sucker, idiot, full stop" is plainly incorrect and embarassingly simplistic, and just pointless insults. As you can see from the large number of people who use macOS to develop for Linux servers because it's got a nice GUI - people who definitely know about Linux, aren't shilling for anything. You calling them suckers and idiots is irrelevent when they get a better experience and trade away nothing which interests them. That's not stupid, that's a reasonable trade.
skohan 4y ago
Step 1: join a conversation about the importance of FOSS, and the dangers of decreased awareness about its importance in society Step 2: re-frame it as the pro-FOSS side having bad manners Step 3: ???
- jodrellblank 4y ago
  If I thought a cause was important, and I saw someone pretending to represent the cause but really berating and sneering at the people I was trying to reach out to and connect with, I'd be unhappy about that being the public face of the cause I valued.
philistine 4y ago
Step 5, mention a creep.
wiseowise 4y ago
> "I'm the one being demeaned, you inferior clueless simpletons!" That’s true, though.

skrtskrt 4y ago

A free house that I can use forever without restrictions sure sounds a lot more like freedom than buying a house with significant restrictions on how I can use it.

jodrellblank 4y ago
The more important point in the analogy is that people who buy houses aren't in prison. The other important point is that a house free house forever without restrictions doesn't exist - you're still beholden to zoning laws, fire safety laws, environmental regulations, you couldn't use the house as a meth lab or fly kites from it into restricted airspace, or broadcast from it into restricted radio bands, or a thousand other things. And for your own self-interest you want to keep it clear of insects, keep the roof waterproof, keep the floors from collapsing, etc. Then it becomes a lot clearer that there are tradeoffs around amount of effort needed, amount of money spent, amounts of freedoms, with many reasonable choices for different people and use-cases, rather than the implied binary choice.
teddyh 4y ago
Most people seem to know that HOAs are troublesome and should be avoided, though.
- sigstoat 4y ago
  HOA homes seem to sell fine. average people don’t give a shit about this sort of thing.
  - throw10920 4y ago
    No, almost every single person (8-10?) that I've talked to about buying a house in the past year mentioned HOAs, and almost exclusively negatively, too.
    - sigstoat 4y ago
      > every single person (8-10?) ...wow. and yet, despite that, they're still selling.
      - skinnymuch 4y ago
        How does that mean people don’t give a shit?

smoldesu 4y ago

1. Well, this is the root of the conversation around free software, especially in the modern age. I think many people would argue that Windows/Apple/Android users are indeed computing, but they're doing so on the behalf of Microsoft/Apple/Google. When those companies back up your files to their first-party cloud systems, that's not your computation anymore. They have your data and can ostensibly do whatever they want with it. There may be quibbling to be had on this topic, but I think the original point still stands in context. 2. I wouldn't call it a prison, but it would be pretty disappointing to move into a listed building where the thermostat was locked behind an acrylic case. Simply put, it sucks when you pay for something and can't run arbitrary software on the hardware you own. I don't really think most people would disagree here: having options is better than having none. 3. Is it really a fantasy? I doubt the average PC owner even knows they have options other than Windows, much less free ones. Maybe this is the HN US-centric mindset taking over again, but nobody in America really knows or cares about this stuff, for better and worse. 4. Pretty much all of your refutations so far haven't actually debated their core point, so I don't think it's fair to start throwing stones. Given the average vitriol of HN, I would say that many different people are "often demeaned, or neglected, even here on HN", be it Free Software advocates or proud Macbook owners. It doesn't make them any more or less credible, but their original point still stands: people on this website love to quibble about how atrocious OSS is when compared to $GLORIOUS_SAAS, despite the fact that the iPhone/Windows/Android device they're writing on is more OSS than it is proprietary. Whether it's Apple, Microsoft or Google, none of them deserve to inherit the future of computing. It's not a radical opinion, and I'd agree with the parent comment that it's pretty often overlooked on a forum about startup culture and business.

jrm4 4y ago

I too don't like the idea of being "demeaning" and whatnot, but this is all very simple. Home Depot sells you a hammer, and also in some way (even in a legally enforceable way) tries to suggest you can only build chairs with it. Anyone, ANYONE, who agrees that you're somehow wrong when you use it to build a table is a shill, a sucker, or an idiot. Full stop.

captainbland 4y ago
Well clearly you should just sign up to their hammer cloud pro service and then you'll get your chair hammer and even some more niche hammers like ones for constructing bird feeders and knocking bits of sheet metal into place. When you pay your monthly fee, someone will come around to your house with this variety of hammers for different tasks and when you stop paying your monthly fee a different person may come around with just one hammer.
jodrellblank 4y ago
You want to build a chair. Home depot sells you a hammer which you can use to build chairs. Someone runs up to you in the car park and calls you and tells you that you are using toy tools and you have no real awareness of the world, and if only you give up a couple of weekends on some blacksmithing and woodworking you can make your own tools and build anything, what do you think? You say you want to build a chair and this hammer is ready-made and convenient, and they tell you that you only think buying hammers is the natural state of things because you were told that. You try to walk away. They get in front of you and say that you don't understand the intellectual and philosophical underpinnings of tools! You step to the side and push past, they call after you that you are in prison and don't even know it! You get home and make a chair. It's a nice chair. You sit in it while telling the story about the crazy person you met earlier. > "Anyone, ANYONE, who agrees that you're somehow wrong when you use it to build a table is a shill, a sucker, or an idiot. Full stop." You buy arsenic, you can't put it in people's food. You buy a camera, you can't use it to sneakily record people using the toilet even in your own home. You buy a recorder, you can't use it to quietly record phonecalls in many states. You rent a film to watch at home, you can't show it to a large audience for profit. You buy a radio transmitter, you can't modify it to be more powerful or use different frequencies. You can't decorate your car to look like a police car, put a midnight klaxon on your house or an unsightly chimney overshadowing the neighbourhood. You can't lease a car and disassemble it to find out how it works. There are restrictions on all kinds of things in everyday life for all kinds of reasons. And you don't get a free pass to do any of these things with a computer just because you identify as a computer geek. The rhetoric that people who are agreeable or disinterested, must be "shill, sucker, idiot, full stop" is plainly incorrect and embarassingly simplistic, and just pointless insults. As you can see from the large number of people who use macOS to develop for Linux servers because it's got a nice GUI - people who definitely know about Linux, aren't shilling for anything. You calling them suckers and idiots is irrelevent when they get a better experience and trade away nothing which interests them. That's not stupid, that's a reasonable trade.

skohan 4y ago

Step 1: join a conversation about the importance of FOSS, and the dangers of decreased awareness about its importance in society Step 2: re-frame it as the pro-FOSS side having bad manners Step 3: ???

jodrellblank 4y ago
If I thought a cause was important, and I saw someone pretending to represent the cause but really berating and sneering at the people I was trying to reach out to and connect with, I'd be unhappy about that being the public face of the cause I valued.

philistine 4y ago

Step 5, mention a creep.

wiseowise 4y ago

> "I'm the one being demeaned, you inferior clueless simpletons!" That’s true, though.