9 ms·

Seems like a lot of the interest in these bans is coming from new research like this [Stanford study](https://news.stanford.edu/2022/01/27/rethinking-cooking-ga

• brewdad 4y ago
  Why would this disincentivize construction? If anything, building a home without gas infrastructure should be cheaper. Lower building costs. One less utility meter to be installed. Reduced "impact" charges. Assuming it doesn't lead to a decrease in new home demand vs older homes with gas, this should be a boon to the construction industry.
  • sroussey 4y ago
    People don’t want a lack of gas line. Those that care can turn their own gas off, yet sell to someone that does care.
    • BeetleB 4y ago
      Do we have statistics on people's preferences? Anecdotes: I've yet to live in an apartment/house that actually had a gas stove. No one I know made gas a criterion when house/apartment hunting. They use whatever the place has. When leaving a place with a gas stove, none of them cared if the new place would be electric or gas. On the flip side, I know quite a few people that exclude places with gas stoves when hunting for housing, because they're used to electric and are worried about fires (never mind if their worry is reasonable or not). So I've definitely met more people who insist on electric than on gas.
      • hnov 4y ago
        Gas and (real) rangetop extraction are definitely things that I consider, but I do love to cook. An inductive stove-top would be fine, but a resistive one would be a huge negative for me.
      • Larrikin 4y ago
        I've only lived in apartments that have had had gas ranges or connections in Philly, Tokyo, and Chicago. The biggest annoyance after my latest move was that every single apartment had flat top electric ranges so I didn't even have option of preferring apartments with gas ranges.
      • MiddleEndian 4y ago
        My preference for electric (although not a dealbreaker, my condo has a gas stove) is solely because they're so much easier to clean. Having an entirely flat stovetop is very relaxing.
        • BeetleB 4y ago
          > Having an entirely flat stovetop is very relaxing. That sounds like an induction stovetop (which is electric). Those are nice and becoming more common, but they cost more. The majority of electric stove top ranges are like this: https://www.istockphoto.com/photo/corroded-kitchen-electric-range-cooking-stovetop-circular-burners-gm512472502-87170143 https://www.istockphoto.com/photo/corroded-kitchen-electric-... Not exactly flat.
          • bobbean 4y ago
            I have a flat glass electric stovetop, not induction. They seem to be becoming more common from what I've seen.
          • PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
            These are common and cheap: https://blog.bellinghamelectric.com/hs-fs/hubfs/Above%20the%20Fold%20Image%20Smooth%20Top%20Electric%20Range%20Pros%20Cons_GE%20Profile%20PB930SLSS.jpeg?width=600&name=Above%20the%20Fold%20Image%20Smooth%20Top%20Electric%20Range%20Pros%20Cons_GE%20Profile%20PB930SLSS.jpeg https://blog.bellinghamelectric.com/hs-fs/hubfs/Above%20the%... Not induction, so not the same plusses, but the flat stovetop thing is nice, even for an old gas head like me.
    • cheriot 4y ago
      If people prefer gas that much then existing homes will be more highly valued. That does not change the equation for everyone that's already priced out of existing properties. Considering the extreme shortage of housing inventory in our most prosperous cities I doubt gas hookups kill any projects.
• dlisboa 4y ago
  This relates to a difficult topic, which is: should modern civilization be 100% carbon neutral? Some things are inherently difficult to make electric, yet we need them to have what we'd call a "modern civilization". Planes are the biggest one: there is a drive to use more trains instead of planes, but should we give that up? It is definitely a step backwards in civilization, as large parts of the world are now impossible to go to and from. Some people admonish flight tourism as hedonistic and say it harms the planet: but should people not be allowed to travel intercontinentally? Is that the world we want? I believe the investment in carbon capture and greenhouse gases abatement should be increased. Not just because we'll not meet our climate goals and need a way to clean our atmosphere, but because even if we do we still need some things that burn fossil fuels (possibly for hundreds of years). In that sense, if all of our energy grid was renewable, heavy industries didn't burn coal, and all cars were also electric, would it matter that we have gas stoves and other modern conveniences? Maybe not.
  • occz 4y ago
    I don't think that this is relevant at all in the context of this discussion - electric cooking methods - particularly induction - are superior to gas in essentially every way, shape or form - barring the production of wok hei, which is why the article stresses that so much, while conveniently leaving out all the massive downsides of gas stoves. Gas stoves are also generally used by gas companies to get gas lines drawn into buildings, so that they can easily sell gas to the bigger consumer of gas - heating. And indeed, in this aspect too, gas is _vastly_ inferior to modern heating technologies such as heat pumps. There is no real convenience trade-off when it comes to gas. It's time for it to die, permanently.
    • tompccs 4y ago
      Everything you have written is wrong. Gas is very efficient. If you have the choice of burning gas at a power station (which is how a lot of electricity is generated now a days) and piping it directly into people's homes for the end goal of generating heat, piping wins every time. The inefficiencies of converting gas to electricity and transporting that electricity are significant and well known. Additionally, I don't know how anyone who has cooked on gas and electric can claim electric is superior. I will grant that a very good electric (ie, induction) _might_ be superior to a very bad gas, but I have used a lot of examples of each and I would choose gas every time (and to demonstrate I am not ideological about this, I always prefer electric ovens over gas). Heat pumps are also a vastly overrated technology which only work for very well insulated houses with an HVAC system which keeps the rooms ventilated artificially. I am big on electrification - I'm a Tesla shareholder - but the carbon benefits of electric heating over gas are minute. The Green agenda should avoid battles where the perceived detriment to people's quality of life vastly exceeds the provable environmental benefit.
• russdill 4y ago
  This doesn't just apply to cooking gas though
• bjt2n3904 4y ago
  And there you have it. The essence of environmentalism. Find a small problem, propose drastic measures to counter it, end up making the problem worse. Then, later, accuse everyone of impeding progress, and that there is an urgent need for even more drastic measures.
  • subsubzero 4y ago
    • cultofmetatron 4y ago
      The issue wasn't cutting down trees. We've had notions of managed forests fro thousands of years. The problem was that we were now Clear Cutting an entire forest to a barren flatland. Those wouldn't return to forest for years if ever and represented huge habitat loss the local flora and fauna.
    • ClumsyPilot 4y ago
      I don't know if you never got the news or what, but entire forest ranges, bigger than most countries, have dissapeared, like the atlantic forest
      • subsubzero 4y ago
        I think the question is where are you getting your news? US forests are at a 100 year high, there are more trees now that there were 100 years ago! https://www.treehugger.com/more-trees-than-there-were-years-ago-its-true-4864115 https://www.treehugger.com/more-trees-than-there-were-years-...
• hammock 4y ago
  Pretty much every argument I have read in this post boils down to "electric is better" but crucially ignores a) the idea that preferences are individual, and b) even accepting something as universally "better" doesn't mean we ought to legislate it across an entire group of people (AKA centrally plan the economy).
  • mason55 4y ago
    One person’s “centrally planned economy” is another person’s “managing negative externalities” A lot of the “electric is better” posts have an implied “gas stoves are bad for people and the environment so we should get rid of them but it’s fine because electric is better anyway”.
    • marvin 4y ago
      Negative externalities would ideally just be handled through proportional taxation. Then market incentives work it out. Taxes are used to clean up the externalities.
      • Gibbon1 4y ago
        That's the standard neoliberal solution that never works vs California's experience that phase outs and bans work well.
        • imtringued 4y ago
          The problem with neoliberalism is that it is about cutting taxes like these. The FDP in Germany is basically a tax cut party and nothing else.
        • marvin 4y ago
          It currently costs $600 to permanently remove one ton of CO2 from the atmosphere. How many percent of the United States' CO2 emissions are subjected to this level of CO2 tax, along with similar import taxes to avoid shifting emissions to locales with no tax? This will work.
• bluescrn 4y ago
  And we seem to be throwing away the best opportunity that we've ever had to reduce driving quite significantly - by giving up on WFH and forcing people to commute again.
• bsder 4y ago
  > Seems like a lot of the interest in these bans is coming from new research like this [Stanford study](https://news.stanford.edu/2022/01/27/rethinking-cooking-gas/ https://news.stanford.edu/2022/01/27/rethinking-cooking-gas/) showing gas stoves emit more methane than previously thought. Actually, most of the interest I see is in the indoor air quality impact rather than in the global environmental impact. Gas stoves emitting particulates wasn't a big deal back when houses were drafty as hell. However, now that everything is sealed up for insulation, indoor air quality is a much bigger deal. And gas stoves are terrible for indoor air quality.
• bradlys 4y ago
  The thing is - when you get rid of gas stoves you can get rid of almost all other gas appliances. That’s literally the only thing keeping gas in most homes in the USA and continued in new construction. When you add in gas water heaters, heating, etc. then gas becomes a more significant contributor to GHG. Whereas switching all of those with heatpumps and induction cuts off the gas lobby from fucking with everyone. Best way to get gas lobby to stop winning? Get rid of gas stoves. Climate Town has a good video on this subject. https://youtu.be/hX2aZUav-54 https://youtu.be/hX2aZUav-54