13 ms·

So glad this exists. It took people quite some time to group up for this. I find it... borderline immoral to have an open source product and then have binaries

So glad this exists. It took people quite some time to group up for this. I find it... borderline immoral to have an open source product and then have binaries contain telemetry and other stuff that's not in the main tree. But, hey, we couldn't expect Microsoft not to muddy the waters a bit.

mekster 4y ago
> borderline immoral Who are you to say about the moral? They've poured millions and millions of dollars into it and telemetry is there partly to make it a better product and what you do is talk about moral and expectations?
WalterGR 4y ago
First submission about it is from four years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17850960 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17850960
- justsomeguy123 4y ago
  I know VSCodium isn't new but VSCode was released in 2015, so it took the community about 3 years to form.
fathyb 4y ago
Just to clarify, the code for the telemetry is open, it's the configuration with the endpoints that's not on the main tree.
eterevsky 4y ago
I don't see how it is immoral at all. It's not like they are adding some malware in the binary. From the sound of it, the only "closed" part is configuration, like the endpoints for telemetry API. As far as I am concerned, telemetry is a good thing. Unless you are very paranoid, I don't see a good reason to disable it. Telemetry makes it possible for your usage patterns to influence the development of the product, which is beneficial for you as a user.
- danvayn 4y ago
  best reason? it's laggy on my computer. it's not a good user experience for me. it's clear that a non telemetric solution just performs better, atleast on my end.
  - eterevsky 4y ago
    I am pretty sure telemetry is sent asynchronously and shouldn't affect editor's performance. Also, if you have your doubts, you can easily opt out. It's very visible in the Settings.
    - giancarlostoro 4y ago
      It's interesting they see a noticeable difference. I don't think it's the calls themselves that cause the latency, probably all the code trying to figure out every single thing you're doing within VS Code to send over.
- codedokode 4y ago
  > telemetry is a good thing It is good only if it is "opt in". But in the wild we see that lot of software doesn't even provide an opt out and doesn't warn about telemetry when installing or starting a program. If it is such a good thing, why developers prefer not to disclose its usage?
  - kristiandupont 4y ago
    >It is good only if it is "opt in" Why? This isn't a product marketed to kids using dark patterns or something. People who feel like you do can easily opt out. >If it is such a good thing, why developers prefer not to disclose its usage? Maybe because they feel that it's not that big a deal. They could also "disclose" that the app uses X amount of harddisk space or memory, or that it was built by developers who are running Windows as their primary OS. That might be a deal breaker to some, but most people probably don't care.
    - 4y ago
est31 4y ago
The model Microsoft is following here is called the "open core" model, where the core part of a product is open source, and then some extensions to it are proprietary. It's the same model that Chrome itself, that VSCodium is built upon, operates with. And also Android. It's their choice fundamentally. They pay for all the VS code developers, so from a moral standpoint, they don't have to release source code at all (outside of general immorality of proprietary software but that's something different). They still decide to release it and IMO they should be lauded for open sourcing at least parts, and enabling DFSG-compatible rebuilds to exist.
- gtirloni 4y ago
  The open core model is when a product is open source and extensions are paid and proprietary. The extensions often include features that are essential to the usage of said product. There's nothing "open core" about Microsoft shipping binaries with telemetry.
  - beowulfey 4y ago
    Unless Microsoft views telemetry features to be an extension itself
  - riedel 4y ago
    Selling binaries is a something even GPL foresees. You can view telemetry as the price: if the product is free, you are the product. This has become a predominant business modell since most users seem unwilling to pay for sth that you can get for free. Sure MS won't need the money but I guess the dev team will probably have to still provide such kind of value. What would IMHO conflict with free software is however not the presence of telemetry but the lacking presence of it in the public sources (if that is true at all, often this even has to be removed by community forks). Is telemetry actually so intrasparent in the official sources?
    - hulitu 4y ago
      > This has become a predominant business modell since most users seem unwilling to pay for sth that you can get for free. I paid for my Android phone. Google is still collecting every piece of my life and my family's.
oaiey 4y ago
Is not the telemetry in the main tree but it is different licensed because of the Visual Studio icons? That was at least my understanding.
gbuk2013 4y ago
It’s fundamentally an issue of trust and unsurprisingly Microsoft still hasn’t changed from its “embrace, extend, extinguish” days: already there are add-on that only work with their official VSCode binary (e.g. the remote code sharing add-on). So enjoy the freebies but keep in mind the predatory interests underneath. ;)
- moron4hire 4y ago
  So sneaky, embracing and extending open source software... That they wrote. Any day now. Gonna extinguish it. Cuz... Why again?
  - always2slow 4y ago
    EEE is a long term play. The 'Why?' is to secure their monopoly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish#Strategy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...
    - moron4hire 4y ago
      Their monopoly of... Text editors... The thing every developer and their sibling implements at some point in their career.
      - always2slow 4y ago
        No, they want to monopolize computing. And actually, yeah they do kind of have a monopoly on text editing, everyone who isn't a programmer uses Microsoft Word. Which they did by using EEE. You could import different formats into Word but good luck exporting it.
      - fartcannon 4y ago
        Vendor lock-in is real, and powerful.
      - Sirenos 4y ago
        Let's not pretend a weekend hobby text editor is anywhere near the feature set of VSCode.
madduci 4y ago
It's not only about Telemetry. The branded version has also Powershell features that aren't available in VSCodium, e.g. the remote container development isn't possible in the open source version
- elashri 4y ago
  This also applies to Github copilot/labs/codespaces extensions..etc.
cassandratt 4y ago
It's hard to call it immoral when it's free and it's easily compilable. I'm a commie, so very critical of corporations. But, of all the immoral actions in Silicon Valley, this isn't one of them.
908B64B197 4y ago
> But, hey, we couldn't expect Microsoft not to muddy the waters a bit. That's an interesting take on Apple (Darwin) [0] and Google (Chromium) [1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium_(web_browser) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium_(web_browser)

mekster 4y ago

> borderline immoral Who are you to say about the moral? They've poured millions and millions of dollars into it and telemetry is there partly to make it a better product and what you do is talk about moral and expectations?

WalterGR 4y ago

First submission about it is from four years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17850960 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17850960

justsomeguy123 4y ago
I know VSCodium isn't new but VSCode was released in 2015, so it took the community about 3 years to form.

fathyb 4y ago

Just to clarify, the code for the telemetry is open, it's the configuration with the endpoints that's not on the main tree.

eterevsky 4y ago

I don't see how it is immoral at all. It's not like they are adding some malware in the binary. From the sound of it, the only "closed" part is configuration, like the endpoints for telemetry API. As far as I am concerned, telemetry is a good thing. Unless you are very paranoid, I don't see a good reason to disable it. Telemetry makes it possible for your usage patterns to influence the development of the product, which is beneficial for you as a user.

danvayn 4y ago
best reason? it's laggy on my computer. it's not a good user experience for me. it's clear that a non telemetric solution just performs better, atleast on my end.
- eterevsky 4y ago
  I am pretty sure telemetry is sent asynchronously and shouldn't affect editor's performance. Also, if you have your doubts, you can easily opt out. It's very visible in the Settings.
  - giancarlostoro 4y ago
    It's interesting they see a noticeable difference. I don't think it's the calls themselves that cause the latency, probably all the code trying to figure out every single thing you're doing within VS Code to send over.
codedokode 4y ago
> telemetry is a good thing It is good only if it is "opt in". But in the wild we see that lot of software doesn't even provide an opt out and doesn't warn about telemetry when installing or starting a program. If it is such a good thing, why developers prefer not to disclose its usage?
- kristiandupont 4y ago
  >It is good only if it is "opt in" Why? This isn't a product marketed to kids using dark patterns or something. People who feel like you do can easily opt out. >If it is such a good thing, why developers prefer not to disclose its usage? Maybe because they feel that it's not that big a deal. They could also "disclose" that the app uses X amount of harddisk space or memory, or that it was built by developers who are running Windows as their primary OS. That might be a deal breaker to some, but most people probably don't care.
  - 4y ago

est31 4y ago

The model Microsoft is following here is called the "open core" model, where the core part of a product is open source, and then some extensions to it are proprietary. It's the same model that Chrome itself, that VSCodium is built upon, operates with. And also Android. It's their choice fundamentally. They pay for all the VS code developers, so from a moral standpoint, they don't have to release source code at all (outside of general immorality of proprietary software but that's something different). They still decide to release it and IMO they should be lauded for open sourcing at least parts, and enabling DFSG-compatible rebuilds to exist.

gtirloni 4y ago
The open core model is when a product is open source and extensions are paid and proprietary. The extensions often include features that are essential to the usage of said product. There's nothing "open core" about Microsoft shipping binaries with telemetry.
- beowulfey 4y ago
  Unless Microsoft views telemetry features to be an extension itself
- riedel 4y ago
  Selling binaries is a something even GPL foresees. You can view telemetry as the price: if the product is free, you are the product. This has become a predominant business modell since most users seem unwilling to pay for sth that you can get for free. Sure MS won't need the money but I guess the dev team will probably have to still provide such kind of value. What would IMHO conflict with free software is however not the presence of telemetry but the lacking presence of it in the public sources (if that is true at all, often this even has to be removed by community forks). Is telemetry actually so intrasparent in the official sources?
  - hulitu 4y ago
    > This has become a predominant business modell since most users seem unwilling to pay for sth that you can get for free. I paid for my Android phone. Google is still collecting every piece of my life and my family's.

oaiey 4y ago

Is not the telemetry in the main tree but it is different licensed because of the Visual Studio icons? That was at least my understanding.

gbuk2013 4y ago

It’s fundamentally an issue of trust and unsurprisingly Microsoft still hasn’t changed from its “embrace, extend, extinguish” days: already there are add-on that only work with their official VSCode binary (e.g. the remote code sharing add-on). So enjoy the freebies but keep in mind the predatory interests underneath. ;)

moron4hire 4y ago
So sneaky, embracing and extending open source software... That they wrote. Any day now. Gonna extinguish it. Cuz... Why again?
- always2slow 4y ago
  EEE is a long term play. The 'Why?' is to secure their monopoly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish#Strategy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...
  - moron4hire 4y ago
    Their monopoly of... Text editors... The thing every developer and their sibling implements at some point in their career.
    - always2slow 4y ago
      No, they want to monopolize computing. And actually, yeah they do kind of have a monopoly on text editing, everyone who isn't a programmer uses Microsoft Word. Which they did by using EEE. You could import different formats into Word but good luck exporting it.
    - fartcannon 4y ago
      Vendor lock-in is real, and powerful.
    - Sirenos 4y ago
      Let's not pretend a weekend hobby text editor is anywhere near the feature set of VSCode.

madduci 4y ago

It's not only about Telemetry. The branded version has also Powershell features that aren't available in VSCodium, e.g. the remote container development isn't possible in the open source version

elashri 4y ago
This also applies to Github copilot/labs/codespaces extensions..etc.

cassandratt 4y ago

It's hard to call it immoral when it's free and it's easily compilable. I'm a commie, so very critical of corporations. But, of all the immoral actions in Silicon Valley, this isn't one of them.

908B64B197 4y ago

> But, hey, we couldn't expect Microsoft not to muddy the waters a bit. That's an interesting take on Apple (Darwin) [0] and Google (Chromium) [1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium_(web_browser) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium_(web_browser)