13 ms·

We make full schematics and board views available to repair shops under a confidentiality agreement: https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/availability-of-sche

by nrp 4y ago

We make full schematics and board views available to repair shops under a confidentiality agreement: https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/availability-of-schematics-and-boardviews-BJMZ6EAu https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/availability-of-schem... In this case, we didn't see a request for it come in. Publicly with no agreement required, we were able to share a sub-set of the schematic focused on the internal and external connectors: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Mainboard/blob/main/Electrical/Mainboard_Interfaces_Schematic.pdf https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Mainboard/blob/main/Ele... Louis has more context on the latter in an earlier video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cJj8PUY0DU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cJj8PUY0DU

jareklupinski 4y ago
I just reached out for schematics using the link provided (using a very similar email to my username) Fingers crossed :)
netr0ute 4y ago
> under a confidentiality agreement That's not so kosher for repairability.
- mfer 4y ago
  I suspect this is due to their chip suppliers or something like that
  - orhmeh09 4y ago
    The simplest explanation is the usual: 100% marketing.
    - Rebelgecko 4y ago
      If that were the case, wouldn't they release the schematics for the positive marketing?
- nabakin 4y ago
  Likely a condition of the manufacturers allowing the release of the schematics in the first place. If Framework proves itself, it will have some more weight to throw around in this area. Maybe enough to make the schematics public.
simcop2387 4y ago
The knowledge-base there doesn't give any idea of what kind of criteria you are required to meet in order to receive the schematics. It just says "repair business". How many laptops need to come into the business before any information will be provided? Why are individuals not able to qualify (maybe they can? the page doesn't make it appear to be the case). Would there be any additional requirements for signing the confidentiality agreement such as having to sell products to customers or providing PII of customers? Both of those things are things that happen under other manufacturers repair programs.
LeonM 4y ago
Sooner or later one of those repair shops is going to leak those schematics. Either intentionally or accidentally, it won't matter. To me, it feels like Framework is creating a lot of extra work and damage to the brand, just for delaying the inevitable. Instead of lawyers, hire engineers to support the repair shops. Wasn't the whole promise of Framework that it would be repairable? Or maybe the laptop "that respects your right to repair", and "that respects the planet" and "that's designed to last" is just another load of marketing bs.
- jjcon 4y ago
  > lot of extra work and damage to the brand As a framework owner I wouldn't personally care if they never released them at all. What makes the framework repairable isn't board-level schematics, its the modularity and access (similar to a desktop). If a part in my framework breaks I'll just replace the individual part. IMO there is no brand damage here outside of some purists calling for things 99.9% of customers don't give 2 shits about.
  - bobsmooth 4y ago
    >outside of some purists calling for things 99.9% of customers don't give 2 shits about. I'm sure if Louis or another technician told you "I could fix your mainboard, but I don't have the schematics. Buy a whole separate board for $400 and I'll install it for you." You might be a little ticked.
    - jjcon 4y ago
      1) Framework provides schematics to repair shops that ask 2) Modularity keeps the cost of individual components so low that board-level repair isn't nearly as important. What would Louis charge me? $350 at least for shipping and time according to similar quotes I've seen of his.
      - LightHugger 4y ago
        You seem awfully sure that board level repair isn't worth it, what did you base that opinion on?
stefan_ 4y ago
What's the big deal? Just upload it somewhere. Don't worry, nobody is embarrassed that the majority of it is copy-pasted reference schematics from parts vendors - that's how it is done!
- userbinator 4y ago
  No kidding. If you've studied enough other laptop schematics you'll quickly realise this. Some might be more cost-optimised ("cost down" in jargon) than others, but they aren't all totally unique and almost always based on reference schematics from Intel or AMD.
OJFord 4y ago
> to repair shops under a confidentiality agreement To be honest (and as a Framework laptop owner) that's a bit disappointing, the 'to repair shops' part and I assume some sort of bar to meet for that, I suppose I understand though. The link you post says pinouts are available, which following through to Github seems to mean just for connectors. I wonder if you could share the BoM and locations perhaps, so not a full schematic, but enough for someone to replace a faulty component like for like or with an equivalent part? Seems to me that would protect what (I presume) you want to protect, while still giving owner-tinkerer-repairers basically everything they want?
- iratewizard 4y ago
  They're a company truly trying to strike a balance between defending the IP they create and what's best for their community. There's no real winning move here that doesn't open them up to Chinese framework clones on Alibaba in a month
  - userbinator 4y ago
    There's no real winning move here that doesn't open them up to Chinese framework clones on Alibaba in a month Arguably if the Chinese wanted to, they could've already beaten Framework to the market. All the major OEMs/ODMs are in China (or Taiwan, but let's not get political here...) and I'm almost willing to bet Framework just contracted this work out to one of them. Also, those OEMs/ODMs are very much capable of taking the Intel reference design schematics and fitting them into the requested shape. That's basically how things like the Thinkpad X62 happened: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15274644 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15274644
    - rasz 4y ago
      Framework ODM is Compal. This laptop is already manufactured in China.
  - OJFord 4y ago
    Are BOM & part locations really the key missing pieces that are going to enable that/make it significantly more likely? Some could already do it, and don't need those; the rest would still be missing schematics, layouts, mechanical drawings, etc. just like a user that wants to know what the unmarked/ambiguously marked chip is in order to try to replace it.
craftyguy 4y ago
- ncallaway 4y ago
  I think that’s completely unfair and you’re letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Are they perfect in meeting their mission because of this clause? Maybe not. But are they still by far the most open and most repairable mass produced laptop on the market? They are. Their mission is extremely ambitious, and they’re trying to drag a massive market in the right direction. Maybe cut them a tiny bit of slack on the way?
  - girvo 4y ago
    While I absolutely agree with you in general, I was a bit taken aback to find this out this morning: their marketing had worked on me, and I had assumed all of this was open, too. So, I can understand why some people are responding badly to this as well.
- dang 4y ago
  Whoa. Please don't post like this to HN. We're trying to avoid the online callout/shaming culture here. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&type=comment&dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=online%20shaming%20by%3Adang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&type=comment&dateRange=a... https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
cristoperb 4y ago
That knowledge base answer says: > We also make full schematics and assembly drawings available to repair shops who get Framework products in for repair But what about individuals who need to repair their own Framework products? If schematics and boardviews are only avaailable to repair shop businesses, that seems to completely contradict most of the copy on the framework site such as: "Our philosophy is that by making well-considered design tradeoffs and trusting customers and repair shops with the access and information they need, we can make fantastic devices that are still easy to repair"
- jjcon 4y ago
  For the vast majority of even techie people - repairable means swapping out a modular part, not soldering or replacing chips on the mainboard.
  - bobsmooth 4y ago
    Louis has dozens upon dozens of videos where he fixes macbooks doing component-level repair. The schematics he uses are available and you could perform the same repairs if you have an hot air pen.
    - jkhdigital 4y ago
      You say that as though the skills required are trivially obtainable. YouTube tends to make everything look a bit easier than it really is…
      - jhugo 4y ago
        To be fair, this type of repair is nowhere near as difficult as most people assume it is.
      - f1refly 4y ago
        You should try it sometime, component repair is not that hard even with average tools. I stuck a phantom powered aux jack in my laptop once, finding the faulty amp transistor and replacing it took about 20 minutes, and that was without schematics.
ncallaway 4y ago
Could you expand on why that confidentiality requirement is in place? Is it a requirement from some of your parts suppliers? Is it a self-imposed constraint for internal business reasons?
- desiarnezjr 4y ago
  I'd bet that some companies in Shenzhen would clone the components quickly. If there's money in it. Clone Framework boards and parts.
  - netr0ute 4y ago
    Is that a bad thing?
    - spaetzleesser 4y ago
      Definitely for Framework.
    - SeanLuke 4y ago
      Of course it is a bad thing. Framework is not a nonprofit. They spent blood and tears developing the designs, and needs to at least recoup the cost spent, if not make a profit.
      - netr0ute 4y ago
        What about FOSH companies?
    - jeroenhd 4y ago
      It would be a great thing for consumers. That's how we got the PC industry in the first place. It'd be bad for Framework though.
  - userbinator 4y ago
    Those companies probably already have access to the same reference designs that Framework (or more likely their ODM/OEM) has.
Lucasoato 4y ago
May I ask you why you feel more confident with sharing data only to repair shops instead of publicly? I apologize if this question sounds too invasive, it's just that I can't imagine a scenario in which a malicious actor wouldn't be able to just pay for the data from shops anyway.
- czx4f4bd 4y ago
  You're assuming it's their choice. It's much more likely that they don't own all the IP and can't get the relevant rightsholder(s) to agree to make things public. Notice that they say "we were able to share" and mention "work[ing] through constraints" when talking about sharing more detailed schematics. I imagine they can't say this explicitly because the terms of their business relationships are themselves confidential and they don't want to say anything that could jeopardize those relationships.
somethoughts 4y ago
On one hand - it makes sense to push for more visibility - to test the depths of their commitment to right-to-repair. On the other hand - being overly critical about a new entrant that is attempting to address the right-to-repair market for not getting everything perfect from the get go might send the wrong signals about the right-to-repair market to the rest of the industry. It seems like a delicate balance might be wise. Having module level repairability for LCD panels, connectors, drivers, memory is a pretty big step relative to the other OEMs. Perhaps the best analogy would be Raspberry Pi schematics which are also reduced [1] and IMHO, the RPi has generally been a plus for the open source hardware/software community. Similarly I could definitely see Intel having some trade secrets as you get closer the CPU. [1] https://datasheets.raspberrypi.com/rpi4/raspberry-pi-4-reduced-schematics.pdf https://datasheets.raspberrypi.com/rpi4/raspberry-pi-4-reduc...
- nrp 4y ago
  Yep, we absolutely understand and respect Louis and community members' requests for full schematics, and we appreciate the folks who extend understanding as we work through constraints (including Louis as noted in that last video). We're continuing to make as much open as we can, and we're adding to that list as we go: * Mainboard partial schematics, drawings, and pinouts: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Mainboard https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Mainboard * Expansion Card reference designs: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionCards https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionCards * Embedded Controller firmware: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/EmbeddedController https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/EmbeddedController On the list of things that we are exploring ways to improve on in the future: * More of the schematics, including of modules beyond the Mainboards. * Moving to open UEFI/BIOS solutions.
- userbinator 4y ago
  Similarly I could definitely see Intel having some trade secrets as you get closer the CPU. If they're "secrets", they're probably one of the worst-kept in the industry. You can already find plenty of other, probably leaked, schematics of laptops using the same if not very similar platform. They are all based on reference designs from Intel, after all. It's inevitable that yours will leak too, hopefully sooner rather than later. Hence I am strongly siding with the "marketing BS" people here. Claiming to be so strongly in support of RtR, and then turning around and keeping the barely-existing artificial moat up, is practically not much better than all the other laptops that already have schematics available.
CamperBob2 4y ago
How about making them available to your paying customers under a "Click here to download" agreement?
infogulch 4y ago
Elon Musk dropped a beautiful line in a recent interview, "At SpaceX we specialize in converting things from impossible to late" https://twitter.com/Erdayastronaut/status/1528810070645125120 https://twitter.com/Erdayastronaut/status/152881007064512512... Unfortunately all industries are slowly boiling away the old standard of shipping schematics and diagrams of products we purchase. It seems layers of bureaucracy, contracts, and misaligned incentives have made it virtually impossible to continue that tradition even if desired. I'm happy with my Framework laptop, I'm glad that you were able to publish the schematics that are available publicly, and I'm glad that you will provide full board views to repair shops that ask for them. I hope you will be able to publish complete schematics for public consumption at some point in the future, even if it's late.
ntoskrnl 4y ago
If I sign an NDA, would you tell me why the schematics are under NDA?
- dathinab 4y ago
  Simple: Copyright isn't always enough to protect your IP when you are a small company. They do want allow repair-ability, they don't want to make unauthorized clones too simple. Bigger tech companies don't have to worry to much about this (given how they operate, legal teams they have, influence they have etc.). For small companies in the bootstrapping phase it's a problem. Also there might be legal requirements, like some small parts of the layout being based on Intel provided schemas or similar. But that last point is pure speculative and irrelevant as the first point is good enough of an reason (while your company is in the bootstrapping phase).
sprayk 4y ago
Are you allowed to say if it is the board manufacturer or chip/component manufacturers that require the NDA? I'm mostly curious what level of vendor the restriction is coming from to get a better idea of what needs to change for Framework (or any other company) to be able to release the full schematics without NDA.
hda2 4y ago
Do you make full schematics and board views available to laptop owners under similar agreements? This is my main concern. If I, as the owner of your laptop, can't repair said laptop after a water spill, then I can't call it reparable. Modular, yes. Repairable, NO.
- curiousgal 4y ago
  Oh please, do you have access to a microscope, a hot air station and all of the required hardware to perform component-level repairs? Do you even know how to read a schematics? (I don't mean you in person but you as in the average consumer). This is why we can't have nice things, y'all keep making unrealistic demands that are seriously disheartening.
  - jeroenhd 4y ago
    I think such expectations are perfectly fair for a company that advertises that they "support your right to repair" on their front page. When you claim such support, you change the expectations people have of your product. As a consumer, you pay a significant fee for the repairability of the laptop compared to laptops from other brands. If all you get in return is coloured screws and recessed USB ports then I'd be pretty annoyed too. This company claims they'll support your right to repair but then doesn't support _certain_ types of repair unless you meet their conditions. That's no different from Google, Apple, or any other tech giants that also will happily let you repair your device if you've got the right contacts and credentials. Even John Deer has repair manuals available.
  - hda2 4y ago
    Yes, I can read schematics and I have preformed multiple component-level repairs on two of my laptops in the past. Even if I hadn't, this wouldn't discount my argument. The fact that the "average consumer" hasn't wouldn't either. Repairability and modularity are two distinct concepts. The framework laptop is modular but it is not repairable. At least not any more repairable then my Toshiba or MSI laptops. End of story.
Nextgrid 4y ago
Is it limited to "repair shops" or to anyone who's happy to sign the NDA (such as an end-customer looking to repair their own machine after spilling a drink)? If the former, what's the criteria that determines whether one is a "repair shop"? Would Honest Achmed's Used Laptops and Certificates[1] qualify if he wanted to repair his cousin Mustafa's laptop? [1]: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=647959 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=647959
ravel-bar-foo 4y ago
It seems this is something that you really want repair shops to be informed of even if they have never heard of your brand. Perhaps putting text to the effect of "Full schematics are available to repair shops under a confidentiality agreement. Please contact foo@bar.com" on the first page that the QR codes resolve to would greatly improve communications with repairers.
vaylian 4y ago
If you are allowed to comment on this: Is there an official expiry date when the publishing of the schematics will no longer be an issue? If yes, when? I'm still very happy with my Framework :-)

by nrp 4y ago

jareklupinski 4y ago

I just reached out for schematics using the link provided (using a very similar email to my username) Fingers crossed :)

netr0ute 4y ago

> under a confidentiality agreement That's not so kosher for repairability.

mfer 4y ago
I suspect this is due to their chip suppliers or something like that
- orhmeh09 4y ago
  The simplest explanation is the usual: 100% marketing.
  - Rebelgecko 4y ago
    If that were the case, wouldn't they release the schematics for the positive marketing?
nabakin 4y ago
Likely a condition of the manufacturers allowing the release of the schematics in the first place. If Framework proves itself, it will have some more weight to throw around in this area. Maybe enough to make the schematics public.

simcop2387 4y ago

The knowledge-base there doesn't give any idea of what kind of criteria you are required to meet in order to receive the schematics. It just says "repair business". How many laptops need to come into the business before any information will be provided? Why are individuals not able to qualify (maybe they can? the page doesn't make it appear to be the case). Would there be any additional requirements for signing the confidentiality agreement such as having to sell products to customers or providing PII of customers? Both of those things are things that happen under other manufacturers repair programs.

LeonM 4y ago

Sooner or later one of those repair shops is going to leak those schematics. Either intentionally or accidentally, it won't matter. To me, it feels like Framework is creating a lot of extra work and damage to the brand, just for delaying the inevitable. Instead of lawyers, hire engineers to support the repair shops. Wasn't the whole promise of Framework that it would be repairable? Or maybe the laptop "that respects your right to repair", and "that respects the planet" and "that's designed to last" is just another load of marketing bs.

jjcon 4y ago
> lot of extra work and damage to the brand As a framework owner I wouldn't personally care if they never released them at all. What makes the framework repairable isn't board-level schematics, its the modularity and access (similar to a desktop). If a part in my framework breaks I'll just replace the individual part. IMO there is no brand damage here outside of some purists calling for things 99.9% of customers don't give 2 shits about.
- bobsmooth 4y ago
  >outside of some purists calling for things 99.9% of customers don't give 2 shits about. I'm sure if Louis or another technician told you "I could fix your mainboard, but I don't have the schematics. Buy a whole separate board for $400 and I'll install it for you." You might be a little ticked.
  - jjcon 4y ago
    1) Framework provides schematics to repair shops that ask 2) Modularity keeps the cost of individual components so low that board-level repair isn't nearly as important. What would Louis charge me? $350 at least for shipping and time according to similar quotes I've seen of his.
    - LightHugger 4y ago
      You seem awfully sure that board level repair isn't worth it, what did you base that opinion on?

stefan_ 4y ago

What's the big deal? Just upload it somewhere. Don't worry, nobody is embarrassed that the majority of it is copy-pasted reference schematics from parts vendors - that's how it is done!

userbinator 4y ago
No kidding. If you've studied enough other laptop schematics you'll quickly realise this. Some might be more cost-optimised ("cost down" in jargon) than others, but they aren't all totally unique and almost always based on reference schematics from Intel or AMD.

OJFord 4y ago

> to repair shops under a confidentiality agreement To be honest (and as a Framework laptop owner) that's a bit disappointing, the 'to repair shops' part and I assume some sort of bar to meet for that, I suppose I understand though. The link you post says pinouts are available, which following through to Github seems to mean just for connectors. I wonder if you could share the BoM and locations perhaps, so not a full schematic, but enough for someone to replace a faulty component like for like or with an equivalent part? Seems to me that would protect what (I presume) you want to protect, while still giving owner-tinkerer-repairers basically everything they want?

iratewizard 4y ago
They're a company truly trying to strike a balance between defending the IP they create and what's best for their community. There's no real winning move here that doesn't open them up to Chinese framework clones on Alibaba in a month
- userbinator 4y ago
  There's no real winning move here that doesn't open them up to Chinese framework clones on Alibaba in a month Arguably if the Chinese wanted to, they could've already beaten Framework to the market. All the major OEMs/ODMs are in China (or Taiwan, but let's not get political here...) and I'm almost willing to bet Framework just contracted this work out to one of them. Also, those OEMs/ODMs are very much capable of taking the Intel reference design schematics and fitting them into the requested shape. That's basically how things like the Thinkpad X62 happened: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15274644 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15274644
  - rasz 4y ago
    Framework ODM is Compal. This laptop is already manufactured in China.
- OJFord 4y ago
  Are BOM & part locations really the key missing pieces that are going to enable that/make it significantly more likely? Some could already do it, and don't need those; the rest would still be missing schematics, layouts, mechanical drawings, etc. just like a user that wants to know what the unmarked/ambiguously marked chip is in order to try to replace it.

craftyguy 4y ago

ncallaway 4y ago
I think that’s completely unfair and you’re letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Are they perfect in meeting their mission because of this clause? Maybe not. But are they still by far the most open and most repairable mass produced laptop on the market? They are. Their mission is extremely ambitious, and they’re trying to drag a massive market in the right direction. Maybe cut them a tiny bit of slack on the way?
- girvo 4y ago
  While I absolutely agree with you in general, I was a bit taken aback to find this out this morning: their marketing had worked on me, and I had assumed all of this was open, too. So, I can understand why some people are responding badly to this as well.
dang 4y ago
Whoa. Please don't post like this to HN. We're trying to avoid the online callout/shaming culture here. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&type=comment&dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=online%20shaming%20by%3Adang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&type=comment&dateRange=a... https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

cristoperb 4y ago

That knowledge base answer says: > We also make full schematics and assembly drawings available to repair shops who get Framework products in for repair But what about individuals who need to repair their own Framework products? If schematics and boardviews are only avaailable to repair shop businesses, that seems to completely contradict most of the copy on the framework site such as: "Our philosophy is that by making well-considered design tradeoffs and trusting customers and repair shops with the access and information they need, we can make fantastic devices that are still easy to repair"

jjcon 4y ago
For the vast majority of even techie people - repairable means swapping out a modular part, not soldering or replacing chips on the mainboard.
- bobsmooth 4y ago
  Louis has dozens upon dozens of videos where he fixes macbooks doing component-level repair. The schematics he uses are available and you could perform the same repairs if you have an hot air pen.
  - jkhdigital 4y ago
    You say that as though the skills required are trivially obtainable. YouTube tends to make everything look a bit easier than it really is…
    - jhugo 4y ago
      To be fair, this type of repair is nowhere near as difficult as most people assume it is.
    - f1refly 4y ago
      You should try it sometime, component repair is not that hard even with average tools. I stuck a phantom powered aux jack in my laptop once, finding the faulty amp transistor and replacing it took about 20 minutes, and that was without schematics.

ncallaway 4y ago

Could you expand on why that confidentiality requirement is in place? Is it a requirement from some of your parts suppliers? Is it a self-imposed constraint for internal business reasons?

desiarnezjr 4y ago
I'd bet that some companies in Shenzhen would clone the components quickly. If there's money in it. Clone Framework boards and parts.
- netr0ute 4y ago
  Is that a bad thing?
  - spaetzleesser 4y ago
    Definitely for Framework.
  - SeanLuke 4y ago
    Of course it is a bad thing. Framework is not a nonprofit. They spent blood and tears developing the designs, and needs to at least recoup the cost spent, if not make a profit.
    - netr0ute 4y ago
      What about FOSH companies?
  - jeroenhd 4y ago
    It would be a great thing for consumers. That's how we got the PC industry in the first place. It'd be bad for Framework though.
- userbinator 4y ago
  Those companies probably already have access to the same reference designs that Framework (or more likely their ODM/OEM) has.

Lucasoato 4y ago

May I ask you why you feel more confident with sharing data only to repair shops instead of publicly? I apologize if this question sounds too invasive, it's just that I can't imagine a scenario in which a malicious actor wouldn't be able to just pay for the data from shops anyway.

czx4f4bd 4y ago
You're assuming it's their choice. It's much more likely that they don't own all the IP and can't get the relevant rightsholder(s) to agree to make things public. Notice that they say "we were able to share" and mention "work[ing] through constraints" when talking about sharing more detailed schematics. I imagine they can't say this explicitly because the terms of their business relationships are themselves confidential and they don't want to say anything that could jeopardize those relationships.

somethoughts 4y ago

On one hand - it makes sense to push for more visibility - to test the depths of their commitment to right-to-repair. On the other hand - being overly critical about a new entrant that is attempting to address the right-to-repair market for not getting everything perfect from the get go might send the wrong signals about the right-to-repair market to the rest of the industry. It seems like a delicate balance might be wise. Having module level repairability for LCD panels, connectors, drivers, memory is a pretty big step relative to the other OEMs. Perhaps the best analogy would be Raspberry Pi schematics which are also reduced [1] and IMHO, the RPi has generally been a plus for the open source hardware/software community. Similarly I could definitely see Intel having some trade secrets as you get closer the CPU. [1] https://datasheets.raspberrypi.com/rpi4/raspberry-pi-4-reduced-schematics.pdf https://datasheets.raspberrypi.com/rpi4/raspberry-pi-4-reduc...

nrp 4y ago
Yep, we absolutely understand and respect Louis and community members' requests for full schematics, and we appreciate the folks who extend understanding as we work through constraints (including Louis as noted in that last video). We're continuing to make as much open as we can, and we're adding to that list as we go: * Mainboard partial schematics, drawings, and pinouts: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Mainboard https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Mainboard * Expansion Card reference designs: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionCards https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionCards * Embedded Controller firmware: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/EmbeddedController https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/EmbeddedController On the list of things that we are exploring ways to improve on in the future: * More of the schematics, including of modules beyond the Mainboards. * Moving to open UEFI/BIOS solutions.
userbinator 4y ago
Similarly I could definitely see Intel having some trade secrets as you get closer the CPU. If they're "secrets", they're probably one of the worst-kept in the industry. You can already find plenty of other, probably leaked, schematics of laptops using the same if not very similar platform. They are all based on reference designs from Intel, after all. It's inevitable that yours will leak too, hopefully sooner rather than later. Hence I am strongly siding with the "marketing BS" people here. Claiming to be so strongly in support of RtR, and then turning around and keeping the barely-existing artificial moat up, is practically not much better than all the other laptops that already have schematics available.

CamperBob2 4y ago

How about making them available to your paying customers under a "Click here to download" agreement?

infogulch 4y ago

Elon Musk dropped a beautiful line in a recent interview, "At SpaceX we specialize in converting things from impossible to late" https://twitter.com/Erdayastronaut/status/1528810070645125120 https://twitter.com/Erdayastronaut/status/152881007064512512... Unfortunately all industries are slowly boiling away the old standard of shipping schematics and diagrams of products we purchase. It seems layers of bureaucracy, contracts, and misaligned incentives have made it virtually impossible to continue that tradition even if desired. I'm happy with my Framework laptop, I'm glad that you were able to publish the schematics that are available publicly, and I'm glad that you will provide full board views to repair shops that ask for them. I hope you will be able to publish complete schematics for public consumption at some point in the future, even if it's late.

ntoskrnl 4y ago

If I sign an NDA, would you tell me why the schematics are under NDA?

dathinab 4y ago
Simple: Copyright isn't always enough to protect your IP when you are a small company. They do want allow repair-ability, they don't want to make unauthorized clones too simple. Bigger tech companies don't have to worry to much about this (given how they operate, legal teams they have, influence they have etc.). For small companies in the bootstrapping phase it's a problem. Also there might be legal requirements, like some small parts of the layout being based on Intel provided schemas or similar. But that last point is pure speculative and irrelevant as the first point is good enough of an reason (while your company is in the bootstrapping phase).

sprayk 4y ago

Are you allowed to say if it is the board manufacturer or chip/component manufacturers that require the NDA? I'm mostly curious what level of vendor the restriction is coming from to get a better idea of what needs to change for Framework (or any other company) to be able to release the full schematics without NDA.

hda2 4y ago

Do you make full schematics and board views available to laptop owners under similar agreements? This is my main concern. If I, as the owner of your laptop, can't repair said laptop after a water spill, then I can't call it reparable. Modular, yes. Repairable, NO.

curiousgal 4y ago
Oh please, do you have access to a microscope, a hot air station and all of the required hardware to perform component-level repairs? Do you even know how to read a schematics? (I don't mean you in person but you as in the average consumer). This is why we can't have nice things, y'all keep making unrealistic demands that are seriously disheartening.
- jeroenhd 4y ago
  I think such expectations are perfectly fair for a company that advertises that they "support your right to repair" on their front page. When you claim such support, you change the expectations people have of your product. As a consumer, you pay a significant fee for the repairability of the laptop compared to laptops from other brands. If all you get in return is coloured screws and recessed USB ports then I'd be pretty annoyed too. This company claims they'll support your right to repair but then doesn't support _certain_ types of repair unless you meet their conditions. That's no different from Google, Apple, or any other tech giants that also will happily let you repair your device if you've got the right contacts and credentials. Even John Deer has repair manuals available.
- hda2 4y ago
  Yes, I can read schematics and I have preformed multiple component-level repairs on two of my laptops in the past. Even if I hadn't, this wouldn't discount my argument. The fact that the "average consumer" hasn't wouldn't either. Repairability and modularity are two distinct concepts. The framework laptop is modular but it is not repairable. At least not any more repairable then my Toshiba or MSI laptops. End of story.

Nextgrid 4y ago

Is it limited to "repair shops" or to anyone who's happy to sign the NDA (such as an end-customer looking to repair their own machine after spilling a drink)? If the former, what's the criteria that determines whether one is a "repair shop"? Would Honest Achmed's Used Laptops and Certificates[1] qualify if he wanted to repair his cousin Mustafa's laptop? [1]: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=647959 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=647959

ravel-bar-foo 4y ago

It seems this is something that you really want repair shops to be informed of even if they have never heard of your brand. Perhaps putting text to the effect of "Full schematics are available to repair shops under a confidentiality agreement. Please contact foo@bar.com" on the first page that the QR codes resolve to would greatly improve communications with repairers.

vaylian 4y ago

If you are allowed to comment on this: Is there an official expiry date when the publishing of the schematics will no longer be an issue? If yes, when? I'm still very happy with my Framework :-)