7 ms·

After Xinjiang Revelations, Germany's Ties to China Are Under the Microscope

75 points by siva7 4y ago

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
basicplus2 4y ago
Great but.. cannot read German. So google translate gives me.. How we delivered ourselves to China The Federal Republic is much more dependent on Beijing than on Moscow. After the torture disclosures by the Xinjiang Police Files, politicians must ask themselves: What crimes are we willing to accept for our prosperity? Then a demand for membership payment
- belter 4y ago
  Maybe better reference and in English. "The China shock: Germany turns away from its biggest trading partner": https://www.dw.com/en/the-china-shock-germany-turns-away-from-its-biggest-trading-partner/a-61957483 https://www.dw.com/en/the-china-shock-germany-turns-away-fro...
- smitty1e 4y ago
  https://www.spiegel.de/international/ https://www.spiegel.de/international/
- rmbyrro 4y ago
  > Then a demand for membership payment You sound like a machine-based text truncation is unacceptable. But that's software developers' job, dude... Should we not do machine-based stuff at all because from time to time a harmless awkward situation pops up?
  - jhugo 4y ago
    I think it's more of a complaint that the link was posted here; stuff behind paywalls isn't really on the web, after all.
pimpampum 4y ago
- djohnston 4y ago
  Do they actually pay you to post on HN or are you just providing your bad takes for free?
WhyNotHugo 4y ago
- roenxi 4y ago
  China's not-so-democratic government nominally controls 15% of the global population, and a lot of the world's manufacturing know-how. The behaviour and standards that their leadership tolerates matters in a way nothing else does.
- mschuster91 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - subliminalpanda 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - tome 4y ago
      - subliminalpanda 4y ago
        > No, one couldn't argue that. It has no basis in reality whatsoever. Certainly there are facts that various vested interests like to spin in a way as deleterious to Israel as possible, but that's not the same as facts that actually support such vile claims. Yes, it can. Both Amnesty International and B'tselem have both accused Israel of the crimes of Apartheid. The documented evidence is plentiful. > Again false. Israel has had arabs citizens in its governments, in the high court, bedouin as high-ranking army officers, and other positions of power, influence and authority for decades. Again, always in the minority.
        tome 4y ago
    - deleted 4y ago
throwaway4good 4y ago
So basically the new army green industrial policy is that those factories that used to make cars for export to China, are going to make weapons for an army about to double its size over the next couple of years.
- throwaway4good 4y ago
  All justified on “research” from victims of communism foundation or aspi which is directly sponsored by weapons manufacturers.
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    > All justified on “research” from victims of communism foundation or aspi which is directly sponsored by weapons manufacturers. That's a classic ad hominem. It's also false that those are the only organizations that have found serious human rights issue in Xinjiang.
    - throwaway4good 4y ago
      They are certainly the most hyperbolic.
mschuster91 4y ago
For the non-Germans here, an extremely quick rundown both of the article and a bit of national debate context: during the last 16 years under Merkel, the German industry saw China both as a destination market for their goods (cars, machinery) and a place for cheap manufacturing of goods without having to take care about European standards for labor and environmental protection. Human rights issues took a backseat and the government was always eager to lobby for the interests of German companies in China, culminating with Merkel lobbying for now-infamous Wirecard [1]. Sooner or later, other European countries followed. The result is a fatal dependence of Germany on China in both directions because the Western markets are pretty much saturated and as a result of two decades of globalization and market (i.e. labor cost) pressure local or alternative supply chains have long since shuttered. Politicians have been even too scared to act on hacking campaigns attributable directly to the Chinese government out of the fear that the industry powerhouses would "randomly" lose contracts or face other punishments - the fate of the two Canadians was a warning sign [2]. Now, with the change in government at the end of last year to a more left-centrist oriented government and the associated demise of importance of heavy-industry stooges in top politics as well as ever more leaks about just how draconian the Chinese government acts (the numerous videos on how people had literally to endure their doors being welded shut or their pets being slaughtered on the street during covid, and now the latest leaks on Xinjiang) and the complete screw-up of delivery chains are all but forcing a complete re-evaluation of very difficult questions on all levels: - How long can Germany, the perpetrator of the Holocaust, keep ignoring what happens in Xinjiang, with concentration camps, genocide and forced labor allegations while claiming to have learned "never again" from the 1933-45 era? - When delivery chains are broken anyway and will be so for a foreseeable future due to China's failure to link a zero-covid policy with actually working vaccines, what is the difference in cost to re-build supply chains somewhere sane (e.g. Vietnam or back in Europe) now or later? - Is it safe for companies to invest in China, when the Chinese government can destroy their business with the stroke of a pen? - How long can Germany keep quiet on Chinese industrial espionage? - What to do with the Chinese "buying spree" of companies with national security/sovereignty interests like Kuka? - How to react to China strong-arming itself into power across Africa and even in Europe by debt usury? - How to prepare the industry and the country for the not-so-uncertain scenario that China invades Taiwan and as a result, there will likely be a decade of chip shortage when TSMC gets destroyed? [1] https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2021-04/angela-merkel-wirecard-untersuchungsausschuss-bundestag-einsatz-china-2019 https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2021-04/angela-merke... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-58687071 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-58687071
flohofwoe 4y ago
This is probably the intended link (matching headline, in English, and not behind paywall): https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/after-xinjiang-revelations-germany-s-ties-to-china-are-under-the-microscope-a-1ac0950f-4d8a-4ead-a95f-0eac1731956a https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/after-xinjiang-re...
captainmuon 4y ago
Maybe this should be replaced with the English version, which is also not behind a paywal: https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/after-xinjiang-revelations-germany-s-ties-to-china-are-under-the-microscope-a-1ac0950f-4d8a-4ead-a95f-0eac1731956a https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/after-xinjiang-re...
boesboes 4y ago
I love how eveyone is pretending that these revelations are anything new. Everybody knew this was going on for years and choose to pretend nothing was going on. All our western, democratic values are just a pathetic distraction in the face of our endless greed.
- baybal2 4y ago
- cies 4y ago
  Unless of course they need our tax money for the war machine, then all of a sudden it's "evil Putin invaded without proper cause" in your face 24/7. So you accept 40B is spend on a war, and not on fixing domestic problems. I dont see how this Ukraine crisis is so much different from the west's invasions of Vietnam, Cuba, Iraq 1&2, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria and making Kosovo a sovereign state.
  - phantomathkg 4y ago
    Many of the war you mentioned are approved by UN. So are you say UN is evil? For example Iraq 1 started due to Saddam Hussain invade Kuwait.
    - CyMonk 4y ago
      > For example Iraq 1 started due to Saddam Hussain invade Kuwait. ... but it didn't start when he invaded Iran. i wonder why?!? (rhetorical question ofc).
    - cies 4y ago
      Kuwait was drilling directionally into a Iraqi oil field. This has been kept from us in the news, but it is the real reason. Saddam wanted Kuwait to pay up. Kuwait did not so they got invaded. Exactly what the US needed to get in: more war, more oil contracts. And yes the UN is evil. But that's besides the point. What leverage do you think Iraq has in the UN, vs what the US has?
- 4y ago
afrcnc 4y ago
Germany seems to have partnered with all the wrong countries lately. Russia, China... what's next? Iran?
- prox 4y ago
  Yes. I think it was Siemens who delivered or supplied parts for the centrifuges for enrichment for their nuclear program.
- chii 4y ago
  > Germany seems to have partnered with all the wrong countries lately. capitalism doesn't see countries as wrong. It's only political, public pressure that causes germany to capitulate and apply sanctions to russia.
- throwaway4good 4y ago
  Hopefully. Some of us still believe in change through trade.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- ho_schi 4y ago
  "What about...?" Only Nixon could go to China [1] Germany? Lately? Every country in the Americas, Europe and also Africa has ties to China. In the long term we've lost industrial self-reliance, workplaces (jobs) with acceptable standards and now depend on microelectronics from China. Reason? Greed. Naming that just opportunism isn't enough. China has a strategic plan for their economy. In the EU politicians still believe in "free trade" and "market rules". Nothing in capitalism is fair nor free. The seeling of KUKA Robotics[2] to Chinese investors was probably a turning-point in Germany. The problem is that Germany only slowly recognizes that it was wrong. Especially parts of the Social Democratic Party (SPD) still believe in this "Wandel durch Annäherung" regarding Russia. And the same argument was used for China. Free trade doesn't make friends or peace, it is just exchange. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_goes_to_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_goes_to_China [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KUKA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KUKA PS: While politics shouldn't control every aspect of production a strategic control of essential industries makes sense. In this regard we could learn from China. Then we control under which conditions work is done.

75 points by siva7 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Great but.. cannot read German. So google translate gives me.. How we delivered ourselves to China The Federal Republic is much more dependent on Beijing than on Moscow. After the torture disclosures by the Xinjiang Police Files, politicians must ask themselves: What crimes are we willing to accept for our prosperity? Then a demand for membership payment

belter 4y ago
Maybe better reference and in English. "The China shock: Germany turns away from its biggest trading partner": https://www.dw.com/en/the-china-shock-germany-turns-away-from-its-biggest-trading-partner/a-61957483 https://www.dw.com/en/the-china-shock-germany-turns-away-fro...
smitty1e 4y ago
https://www.spiegel.de/international/ https://www.spiegel.de/international/
rmbyrro 4y ago
> Then a demand for membership payment You sound like a machine-based text truncation is unacceptable. But that's software developers' job, dude... Should we not do machine-based stuff at all because from time to time a harmless awkward situation pops up?
- jhugo 4y ago
  I think it's more of a complaint that the link was posted here; stuff behind paywalls isn't really on the web, after all.

pimpampum 4y ago

djohnston 4y ago
Do they actually pay you to post on HN or are you just providing your bad takes for free?

WhyNotHugo 4y ago

roenxi 4y ago
China's not-so-democratic government nominally controls 15% of the global population, and a lot of the world's manufacturing know-how. The behaviour and standards that their leadership tolerates matters in a way nothing else does.
mschuster91 4y ago
[flagged]
- subliminalpanda 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - tome 4y ago
    - subliminalpanda 4y ago
      > No, one couldn't argue that. It has no basis in reality whatsoever. Certainly there are facts that various vested interests like to spin in a way as deleterious to Israel as possible, but that's not the same as facts that actually support such vile claims. Yes, it can. Both Amnesty International and B'tselem have both accused Israel of the crimes of Apartheid. The documented evidence is plentiful. > Again false. Israel has had arabs citizens in its governments, in the high court, bedouin as high-ranking army officers, and other positions of power, influence and authority for decades. Again, always in the minority.
      - tome 4y ago
  - deleted 4y ago

throwaway4good 4y ago

So basically the new army green industrial policy is that those factories that used to make cars for export to China, are going to make weapons for an army about to double its size over the next couple of years.

throwaway4good 4y ago
All justified on “research” from victims of communism foundation or aspi which is directly sponsored by weapons manufacturers.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > All justified on “research” from victims of communism foundation or aspi which is directly sponsored by weapons manufacturers. That's a classic ad hominem. It's also false that those are the only organizations that have found serious human rights issue in Xinjiang.
  - throwaway4good 4y ago
    They are certainly the most hyperbolic.

mschuster91 4y ago

For the non-Germans here, an extremely quick rundown both of the article and a bit of national debate context: during the last 16 years under Merkel, the German industry saw China both as a destination market for their goods (cars, machinery) and a place for cheap manufacturing of goods without having to take care about European standards for labor and environmental protection. Human rights issues took a backseat and the government was always eager to lobby for the interests of German companies in China, culminating with Merkel lobbying for now-infamous Wirecard [1]. Sooner or later, other European countries followed. The result is a fatal dependence of Germany on China in both directions because the Western markets are pretty much saturated and as a result of two decades of globalization and market (i.e. labor cost) pressure local or alternative supply chains have long since shuttered. Politicians have been even too scared to act on hacking campaigns attributable directly to the Chinese government out of the fear that the industry powerhouses would "randomly" lose contracts or face other punishments - the fate of the two Canadians was a warning sign [2]. Now, with the change in government at the end of last year to a more left-centrist oriented government and the associated demise of importance of heavy-industry stooges in top politics as well as ever more leaks about just how draconian the Chinese government acts (the numerous videos on how people had literally to endure their doors being welded shut or their pets being slaughtered on the street during covid, and now the latest leaks on Xinjiang) and the complete screw-up of delivery chains are all but forcing a complete re-evaluation of very difficult questions on all levels: - How long can Germany, the perpetrator of the Holocaust, keep ignoring what happens in Xinjiang, with concentration camps, genocide and forced labor allegations while claiming to have learned "never again" from the 1933-45 era? - When delivery chains are broken anyway and will be so for a foreseeable future due to China's failure to link a zero-covid policy with actually working vaccines, what is the difference in cost to re-build supply chains somewhere sane (e.g. Vietnam or back in Europe) now or later? - Is it safe for companies to invest in China, when the Chinese government can destroy their business with the stroke of a pen? - How long can Germany keep quiet on Chinese industrial espionage? - What to do with the Chinese "buying spree" of companies with national security/sovereignty interests like Kuka? - How to react to China strong-arming itself into power across Africa and even in Europe by debt usury? - How to prepare the industry and the country for the not-so-uncertain scenario that China invades Taiwan and as a result, there will likely be a decade of chip shortage when TSMC gets destroyed? [1] https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2021-04/angela-merkel-wirecard-untersuchungsausschuss-bundestag-einsatz-china-2019 https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2021-04/angela-merke... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-58687071 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-58687071

flohofwoe 4y ago

This is probably the intended link (matching headline, in English, and not behind paywall): https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/after-xinjiang-revelations-germany-s-ties-to-china-are-under-the-microscope-a-1ac0950f-4d8a-4ead-a95f-0eac1731956a https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/after-xinjiang-re...

captainmuon 4y ago

Maybe this should be replaced with the English version, which is also not behind a paywal: https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/after-xinjiang-revelations-germany-s-ties-to-china-are-under-the-microscope-a-1ac0950f-4d8a-4ead-a95f-0eac1731956a https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/after-xinjiang-re...

boesboes 4y ago

I love how eveyone is pretending that these revelations are anything new. Everybody knew this was going on for years and choose to pretend nothing was going on. All our western, democratic values are just a pathetic distraction in the face of our endless greed.

baybal2 4y ago
cies 4y ago
Unless of course they need our tax money for the war machine, then all of a sudden it's "evil Putin invaded without proper cause" in your face 24/7. So you accept 40B is spend on a war, and not on fixing domestic problems. I dont see how this Ukraine crisis is so much different from the west's invasions of Vietnam, Cuba, Iraq 1&2, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria and making Kosovo a sovereign state.
- phantomathkg 4y ago
  Many of the war you mentioned are approved by UN. So are you say UN is evil? For example Iraq 1 started due to Saddam Hussain invade Kuwait.
  - CyMonk 4y ago
    > For example Iraq 1 started due to Saddam Hussain invade Kuwait. ... but it didn't start when he invaded Iran. i wonder why?!? (rhetorical question ofc).
  - cies 4y ago
    Kuwait was drilling directionally into a Iraqi oil field. This has been kept from us in the news, but it is the real reason. Saddam wanted Kuwait to pay up. Kuwait did not so they got invaded. Exactly what the US needed to get in: more war, more oil contracts. And yes the UN is evil. But that's besides the point. What leverage do you think Iraq has in the UN, vs what the US has?
4y ago

afrcnc 4y ago

Germany seems to have partnered with all the wrong countries lately. Russia, China... what's next? Iran?

prox 4y ago
Yes. I think it was Siemens who delivered or supplied parts for the centrifuges for enrichment for their nuclear program.
chii 4y ago
> Germany seems to have partnered with all the wrong countries lately. capitalism doesn't see countries as wrong. It's only political, public pressure that causes germany to capitulate and apply sanctions to russia.
throwaway4good 4y ago
Hopefully. Some of us still believe in change through trade.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
ho_schi 4y ago
"What about...?" Only Nixon could go to China [1] Germany? Lately? Every country in the Americas, Europe and also Africa has ties to China. In the long term we've lost industrial self-reliance, workplaces (jobs) with acceptable standards and now depend on microelectronics from China. Reason? Greed. Naming that just opportunism isn't enough. China has a strategic plan for their economy. In the EU politicians still believe in "free trade" and "market rules". Nothing in capitalism is fair nor free. The seeling of KUKA Robotics[2] to Chinese investors was probably a turning-point in Germany. The problem is that Germany only slowly recognizes that it was wrong. Especially parts of the Social Democratic Party (SPD) still believe in this "Wandel durch Annäherung" regarding Russia. And the same argument was used for China. Free trade doesn't make friends or peace, it is just exchange. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_goes_to_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_goes_to_China [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KUKA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KUKA PS: While politics shouldn't control every aspect of production a strategic control of essential industries makes sense. In this regard we could learn from China. Then we control under which conditions work is done.