5 ms·

Commercial formula kinda is a magical combination of ingredients, including a substantial number of supplements that aren’t gonna be available to home cooks. It

Commercial formula kinda is a magical combination of ingredients, including a substantial number of supplements that aren’t gonna be available to home cooks. It’s better to substitute homemade than water down formula, no doubt, but you can understand why newspapers don’t want to publish a recipe knowing that it will send some number of babies to the doctor with an iron deficiency.

hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
> Commercial formula kinda is a magical combination of ingredients, including a substantial number of supplements that aren’t gonna be available to home cooks. Do you have a citation for that? I see all these articles that just say "don't try it yourself, it's too hard", but I'd like to know which specific ingredients are impossible to obtain.
- SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
  I wouldn't claim that the required supplements are literally not available on the commercial market, but the FDA requirements (https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfrsearch.cfm?fr=107.100 https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfr...) include over a dozen nutrients to track, some within a relatively narrow safety range. It's not practical to expect that stressed, busy new parents are gonna buy all these supplements, much less break out their scales and carefully measure 2-7 micrograms of selenium per 100 kcal.
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    It's surprising our species made it the first 8 million years without the FDA...
    - SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
      A lot of us didn’t! Infant mortality used to be orders of magnitude higher, and malnutrition in babies who couldn’t be breastfed adequately was a big contributor.
      - guerrilla 4y ago
        Now imagine if they had cheap vegetables, milk and blenders.
        oneoff786 4y ago
        This is very dangerous. Do not give advice on things you don’t know. It’s not just a vague nutrition profile you’re trying to hit.
        guerrilla 4y ago
        Stop being ridiculous. It's not advice, it's an argument. Find your revipes elsewhere.
        oneoff786 4y ago
        Well it’s a shit argument. You cannot create safe baby formula with vegetables and a blender.
  - IncRnd 4y ago
    > It's not practical to expect that stressed, busy new parents are gonna buy all these supplements, much less break out their scales and carefully measure 2-7 micrograms of selenium per 100 kcal. Brown Rice contains selenium. Even when not breastfeeding, real foods contain micro and macro nutrients that are beneficial for babies.
    - oneoff786 4y ago
      > Brown Rice contains selenium. Even when not breastfeeding, real foods contain micro and macro nutrients that are beneficial for babies. Slight variation in too little nutrients, or too much, or in forms that aren’t absorbed at the intended rate can be very dangerous. Throw in some rice? Ok now there’s extra sodium in there. The milk does too. Uh oh. Suddenly this is a complicated optimization problem requiring fine measurements and specific blending techniques.
    - SkyPuncher 4y ago
      I can also buy 20 proof ethanol at my local gas station. It'd kill me, but hey way is gasoline any different than gin. They're both 10% ethanol.
- tyrfing 4y ago
  This writeup on Reddit has a decent breakdown of the pitfalls: https://www.reddit.com/r/medicine/comments/uvcijm/a_pediatricians_guide_to_navigating_the_formula/ https://www.reddit.com/r/medicine/comments/uvcijm/a_pediatri... Looks like osmolality is a major concern. Good luck explaining that in a 30 second clip on CNN.
  - hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
    > Good luck explaining that in a 30 second clip on CNN. That's pretty much exactly my point, as I mentioned in another comment. I'm having a difficult time believing that the ingredients or measuring devices are so difficult to replicate at home that it would be impossible to do. I think the more likely explanation is a large portion of the population, put generously, "lacks attention to detail", and so homemade formula would be dangerous for them. Here's a good analogy. Saline solution (not disinfecting solution, just normal saline) for contact lenses is not complicated. It's salts and water. At one point it was possible to buy salt packets and mix it with water to make contact lense saline solution. However, it was critical the water be purified, distilled water. Of course, a decent portion of the population thought plain tap water was good enough and ended up going blind, so the FDA banned the salt packets, and you can now only buy premixed saline. So the FDA went out and said "Mixing your own saline solution can be really dangerous, don't do it." And they're right, mixing your own saline can be really dangerous, if you can't follow directions.
    - tyrfing 4y ago
      Yeah, even if it's possible in theory at home (I don't know, won't research it, and think it could very well be either - I think it's very likely the "100% correct" version isn't possible), it will result in harm statistically. Thus it's not standard of care, and recommending it will result in very expensive malpractice lawsuits. Caffeine powder is also illegal these days.
- oneoff786 4y ago
  It’s crazy that in the face of health authorities saying don’t do this, it’s dangerous, your reaction is “prove it”, rather than doing some research on your own to counter your skepticism. The lack of trust in public institutions is deeply saddening. The problem with baby formula is that it needs to contain precise balances of nutrition in specific forms that can be absorbed by the body in specific ways. Much in the way that a calorie is not a calorie is not a calorie, a nutrient is not a nutrient is not a nutrient. Water down your baby formula? Now it’s different. Babies are sensitive. This could be dangerous. This took such little effort to research on my own. The bar is so low. Breast milk is unique. In the past kids had wet nurses as a backup. And when they didn’t, infant mortality was very high. If you just tel people you can go make this shit at home, a lot of babies will likely die.
  - hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
    > It’s crazy that in the face of health authorities saying don’t do this, it’s dangerous, your reaction is “prove it”, rather than doing some research on your own to counter your skepticism. The lack of trust in public institutions is deeply saddening. I 100% disagree. I'm not an idiot. I can read a recipe, even a complicated recipe. And I'm not even saying they're wrong. I'm just asking for some simple example of why, for someone capable of following the instructions exactly, this would be too difficult to do at home. Not the right equipment? Fine. Ingredients that are not readily available? Fine. But to go with some hand wavy bullshit, basically saying "Sorry stupid peon, this is just too complicated for you", is just dumb. On a site called "Hacker News" I think it's incredibly sad that a request for a more detailed explanation is met with "I think that's crazy".
    - SkyPuncher 4y ago
      > I 100% disagree. I'm not an idiot. I can read a recipe, even a complicated recipe This thread has shown me how many people think baby formula is just some complex recipe that requires pureeing the correct vegetables in the correct ratios. Making infant formula is more akin to making medicine/drug than table food. We have home drugs (meth, heroin, cocaine, etc). Yes, they can be made safely, but they often not.
eulers_secret 4y ago
Just saw this earlier today: https://www.insider.com/tiktok-doctors-say-diy-formula-recipes-are-dangerous-2022-5 https://www.insider.com/tiktok-doctors-say-diy-formula-recip... Basically there are viral recipes going around, and this supports that formula in particular is something that we cannot trust the average person to diy. Infants are extremely vulnerable and have unusual dietary requirements. People will die due to this. EDIT: I see this is contentious. Check the reddit post and go argue with them: https://old.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/comments/v07nh0/tiktok_pediatricians_urge_people_to_stop_sharing/iaff6w6/ https://old.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/comments/v07nh0/tiktok_...
- ALittleLight 4y ago
  That's all the more reason to publish and promote good instructions.
  - giantrobot 4y ago
    Good instructions to a lay populace aren't necessarily helpful. Babies are pretty fragile. Slightly undercooked ingredients, slightly improper ratios, or just substitutions made out of ignorance can kill them. It's not DIY chocolate milk powder. A slightly off recipe or preparation won't just taste funny while being otherwise safe.
    - ALittleLight 4y ago
      I think people would trust the government and authorities generally more, if those authorities weren't constantly lying to them. The authorities could say "Here is a rigorous procedure for DIY formula. We strongly recommend against using this, except in an emergency, because slight deviations could result in harm or death for the baby." Instead, they seem to give the impression that DIY formula is never advisable or borderline impossible - which is probably wrong, and that misrepresentation makes people distrust authorities more generally.
      - oneoff786 4y ago

hn_throwaway_99 4y ago

> Commercial formula kinda is a magical combination of ingredients, including a substantial number of supplements that aren’t gonna be available to home cooks. Do you have a citation for that? I see all these articles that just say "don't try it yourself, it's too hard", but I'd like to know which specific ingredients are impossible to obtain.

SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
I wouldn't claim that the required supplements are literally not available on the commercial market, but the FDA requirements (https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfrsearch.cfm?fr=107.100 https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfr...) include over a dozen nutrients to track, some within a relatively narrow safety range. It's not practical to expect that stressed, busy new parents are gonna buy all these supplements, much less break out their scales and carefully measure 2-7 micrograms of selenium per 100 kcal.
- guerrilla 4y ago
  It's surprising our species made it the first 8 million years without the FDA...
  - SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
    A lot of us didn’t! Infant mortality used to be orders of magnitude higher, and malnutrition in babies who couldn’t be breastfed adequately was a big contributor.
    - guerrilla 4y ago
      Now imagine if they had cheap vegetables, milk and blenders.
      - oneoff786 4y ago
        This is very dangerous. Do not give advice on things you don’t know. It’s not just a vague nutrition profile you’re trying to hit.
        guerrilla 4y ago
        Stop being ridiculous. It's not advice, it's an argument. Find your revipes elsewhere.
        oneoff786 4y ago
        Well it’s a shit argument. You cannot create safe baby formula with vegetables and a blender.
- IncRnd 4y ago
  > It's not practical to expect that stressed, busy new parents are gonna buy all these supplements, much less break out their scales and carefully measure 2-7 micrograms of selenium per 100 kcal. Brown Rice contains selenium. Even when not breastfeeding, real foods contain micro and macro nutrients that are beneficial for babies.
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    > Brown Rice contains selenium. Even when not breastfeeding, real foods contain micro and macro nutrients that are beneficial for babies. Slight variation in too little nutrients, or too much, or in forms that aren’t absorbed at the intended rate can be very dangerous. Throw in some rice? Ok now there’s extra sodium in there. The milk does too. Uh oh. Suddenly this is a complicated optimization problem requiring fine measurements and specific blending techniques.
  - SkyPuncher 4y ago
    I can also buy 20 proof ethanol at my local gas station. It'd kill me, but hey way is gasoline any different than gin. They're both 10% ethanol.
tyrfing 4y ago
This writeup on Reddit has a decent breakdown of the pitfalls: https://www.reddit.com/r/medicine/comments/uvcijm/a_pediatricians_guide_to_navigating_the_formula/ https://www.reddit.com/r/medicine/comments/uvcijm/a_pediatri... Looks like osmolality is a major concern. Good luck explaining that in a 30 second clip on CNN.
- hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
  > Good luck explaining that in a 30 second clip on CNN. That's pretty much exactly my point, as I mentioned in another comment. I'm having a difficult time believing that the ingredients or measuring devices are so difficult to replicate at home that it would be impossible to do. I think the more likely explanation is a large portion of the population, put generously, "lacks attention to detail", and so homemade formula would be dangerous for them. Here's a good analogy. Saline solution (not disinfecting solution, just normal saline) for contact lenses is not complicated. It's salts and water. At one point it was possible to buy salt packets and mix it with water to make contact lense saline solution. However, it was critical the water be purified, distilled water. Of course, a decent portion of the population thought plain tap water was good enough and ended up going blind, so the FDA banned the salt packets, and you can now only buy premixed saline. So the FDA went out and said "Mixing your own saline solution can be really dangerous, don't do it." And they're right, mixing your own saline can be really dangerous, if you can't follow directions.
  - tyrfing 4y ago
    Yeah, even if it's possible in theory at home (I don't know, won't research it, and think it could very well be either - I think it's very likely the "100% correct" version isn't possible), it will result in harm statistically. Thus it's not standard of care, and recommending it will result in very expensive malpractice lawsuits. Caffeine powder is also illegal these days.
oneoff786 4y ago
It’s crazy that in the face of health authorities saying don’t do this, it’s dangerous, your reaction is “prove it”, rather than doing some research on your own to counter your skepticism. The lack of trust in public institutions is deeply saddening. The problem with baby formula is that it needs to contain precise balances of nutrition in specific forms that can be absorbed by the body in specific ways. Much in the way that a calorie is not a calorie is not a calorie, a nutrient is not a nutrient is not a nutrient. Water down your baby formula? Now it’s different. Babies are sensitive. This could be dangerous. This took such little effort to research on my own. The bar is so low. Breast milk is unique. In the past kids had wet nurses as a backup. And when they didn’t, infant mortality was very high. If you just tel people you can go make this shit at home, a lot of babies will likely die.
- hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
  > It’s crazy that in the face of health authorities saying don’t do this, it’s dangerous, your reaction is “prove it”, rather than doing some research on your own to counter your skepticism. The lack of trust in public institutions is deeply saddening. I 100% disagree. I'm not an idiot. I can read a recipe, even a complicated recipe. And I'm not even saying they're wrong. I'm just asking for some simple example of why, for someone capable of following the instructions exactly, this would be too difficult to do at home. Not the right equipment? Fine. Ingredients that are not readily available? Fine. But to go with some hand wavy bullshit, basically saying "Sorry stupid peon, this is just too complicated for you", is just dumb. On a site called "Hacker News" I think it's incredibly sad that a request for a more detailed explanation is met with "I think that's crazy".
  - SkyPuncher 4y ago
    > I 100% disagree. I'm not an idiot. I can read a recipe, even a complicated recipe This thread has shown me how many people think baby formula is just some complex recipe that requires pureeing the correct vegetables in the correct ratios. Making infant formula is more akin to making medicine/drug than table food. We have home drugs (meth, heroin, cocaine, etc). Yes, they can be made safely, but they often not.

eulers_secret 4y ago

Just saw this earlier today: https://www.insider.com/tiktok-doctors-say-diy-formula-recipes-are-dangerous-2022-5 https://www.insider.com/tiktok-doctors-say-diy-formula-recip... Basically there are viral recipes going around, and this supports that formula in particular is something that we cannot trust the average person to diy. Infants are extremely vulnerable and have unusual dietary requirements. People will die due to this. EDIT: I see this is contentious. Check the reddit post and go argue with them: https://old.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/comments/v07nh0/tiktok_pediatricians_urge_people_to_stop_sharing/iaff6w6/ https://old.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/comments/v07nh0/tiktok_...

ALittleLight 4y ago
That's all the more reason to publish and promote good instructions.
- giantrobot 4y ago
  Good instructions to a lay populace aren't necessarily helpful. Babies are pretty fragile. Slightly undercooked ingredients, slightly improper ratios, or just substitutions made out of ignorance can kill them. It's not DIY chocolate milk powder. A slightly off recipe or preparation won't just taste funny while being otherwise safe.
  - ALittleLight 4y ago
    I think people would trust the government and authorities generally more, if those authorities weren't constantly lying to them. The authorities could say "Here is a rigorous procedure for DIY formula. We strongly recommend against using this, except in an emergency, because slight deviations could result in harm or death for the baby." Instead, they seem to give the impression that DIY formula is never advisable or borderline impossible - which is probably wrong, and that misrepresentation makes people distrust authorities more generally.
    - oneoff786 4y ago